Rad Onc Twitter

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hmmm... I am to find data supporting the notion that tissues that see radiation dose are more likely to get radiation-induced cancers than tissues that don't.
Obviously the bolded is true, and maybe I'm being too obtuse, but I'm thinking of something more subtle. Is the number of cells in the organism seeing *any* irradiation correlated with the rate of second malignancies (SMs)? E.g., if you're doing prostate-only vs prostate/whole pelvis, is the SM rate lower... if you're doing PET+ only Stage III RT vs primary+ENI in NSCLC, is the SM rate lower? Is the SM rate lower with IMPORT-LOW vs whole breast RT at the same dose? I am trying to link the argument that w/ proton RT e.g. vs IMRT, the volume of cells seeing any irradiation should be lower with proton RT, and so proton RT would have less second malignancies. But in X-ray land, I don't necessarily see that the number of cells irradiated correlates with SM risk. At least I don't counsel a prostate patient who I'm giving WPRT (whose low dose bath region is larger than prostate only RT) that the SM risk is higher vs prostate-only RT. So again, to me, it is kind of a Peto's paradox that PTV sizes, or number of fields (which I think was really what Hall was getting at w/ IMRT iirc), etc, don't correlate with SM risk (at least in adults AFAIK).
 
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Obviously the bolded is true, and maybe I'm being too obtuse, but I'm thinking of something more subtle. Is the number of cells in the organism seeing *any* irradiation correlated with the rate of second malignancies (SMs)? E.g., if you're doing prostate-only vs prostate/whole pelvis, is the SM rate lower... if you're doing PET+ only Stage III RT vs primary+ENI in NSCLC, is the SM rate lower? Is the SM rate lower with IMPORT-LOW vs whole breast RT at the same dose? I am trying to link the argument that w/ proton RT e.g. vs IMRT, the volume of cells seeing any irradiation should be lower with proton RT, and so proton RT would have less second malignancies. But in X-ray land, I don't necessarily see that the number of cells irradiated correlates with SM risk. At least I don't counsel a prostate patient who I'm giving WPRT (whose low dose bath region is larger than prostate only RT) that the SM risk is higher vs prostate-only RT. So again, to me, it is kind of a Peto's paradox that PTV sizes, or number of fields (which I think was really what Hall was getting at w/ IMRT iirc), etc, don't correlate with SM risk (at least in adults AFAIK).
The signal for second malignancy in NSCLC is probably lost in the high mortality from the primary cancer. Prostate/breast cancer are more likely to yield a signal, with DECADES of follow up. Another, seemingly unlikely, site that may yield a benefit is lymphoma.
 
Low doses count. You see this being discussed in diagnostic radiology. I sent this to a buddy who was asking me about risk for a dental cone beam that was recommended for one of his kids. Nice review written for the public though. I agree not an issue for the majority of your typical rad onc patients though.

 
The signal for second malignancy in NSCLC is probably lost in the high mortality from the primary cancer. Prostate/breast cancer are more likely to yield a signal, with DECADES of follow up. Another, seemingly unlikely, site that may yield a benefit is lymphoma.
Mastectomy vs breast conserv failed to show signal in 30000 women in ct. (over 35)
 
Risk isn’t 0 but it’s probably very close to that. Especially with increasing age. There’s that one paper that was published in PRO a few years with the only documented second malignancy in HO after RT. How many times has RT been given for HO?
 
Risk isn’t 0 but it’s probably very close to that. Especially with increasing age. There’s that one paper that was published in PRO a few years with the only documented second malignancy in HO after RT. How many times has RT been given for HO?
Link ?
 
Risk isn’t 0 but it’s probably very close to that. Especially with increasing age. There’s that one paper that was published in PRO a few years with the only documented second malignancy in HO after RT. How many times has RT been given for HO?
Interesting timing, just another Twitter slap fight between Spratt Et al about secondary cancer risk.

Personally I find the data quite concerning but far from convincing. There are a dozen retrospective studies, most showing a relative cancer risk 20-40% higher, especially of bladder and rectum, but also highly subject to bias due to smoking rates in the RT arms. There are a few studies showing that RP patients who get salvage xrt have a higher risk of bladder and rectal cancer. A few studies that showed no difference as well, and most are limited by too short follow up (often less then 10 years where few cancers would be expected)

TBH though the higher quality data is more concerning. The SPCG7 study of randomizing patients to hormonal therapy alone or hormone plus RT with 15 year follow showed an almost 5% higher absolute secondary malignancy risk. This seems almost unbelievably high, but this is legit randomized data (I tend to ignore the 20 year graph since look at the numbers at risk)
1646515793915.png


It is reasonable IMO to counsel patients that the risk is present but not well quantified. To do what Spratt just tweeted he does, which is tell patients and only 0.1% risk, IMO is disengenuos.
 
Interesting timing, just another Twitter slap fight between Spratt Et al about secondary cancer risk.

Personally I find the data quite concerning but far from convincing. There are a dozen retrospective studies, most showing a relative cancer risk 20-40% higher, especially of bladder and rectum, but also highly subject to bias due to smoking rates in the RT arms. There are a few studies showing that RP patients who get salvage xrt have a higher risk of bladder and rectal cancer. A few studies that showed no difference as well, and most are limited by too short follow up (often less then 10 years where few cancers would be expected)

TBH though the higher quality data is more concerning. The SPCG7 study of randomizing patients to hormonal therapy alone or hormone plus RT with 15 year follow showed an almost 5% higher absolute secondary malignancy risk. This seems almost unbelievably high, but this is legit randomized data (I tend to ignore the 20 year graph since look at the numbers at risk)
View attachment 351400

It is reasonable IMO to counsel patients that the risk is present but not well quantified. To do what Spratt just tweeted he does, which is tell patients and only 0.1% risk, IMO is disengenuos.
Good post; 0.1% is too low
 
Interesting timing, just another Twitter slap fight between Spratt Et al about secondary cancer risk.

Personally I find the data quite concerning but far from convincing. There are a dozen retrospective studies, most showing a relative cancer risk 20-40% higher, especially of bladder and rectum, but also highly subject to bias due to smoking rates in the RT arms. There are a few studies showing that RP patients who get salvage xrt have a higher risk of bladder and rectal cancer. A few studies that showed no difference as well, and most are limited by too short follow up (often less then 10 years where few cancers would be expected)

TBH though the higher quality data is more concerning. The SPCG7 study of randomizing patients to hormonal therapy alone or hormone plus RT with 15 year follow showed an almost 5% higher absolute secondary malignancy risk. This seems almost unbelievably high, but this is legit randomized data (I tend to ignore the 20 year graph since look at the numbers at risk)

It is reasonable IMO to counsel patients that the risk is present but not well quantified. To do what Spratt just tweeted he does, which is tell patients and only 0.1% risk, IMO is disengenuos.
DISCLAIMER: Perhaps these confounders were addressed (haven't had a chance to read those papers deeply...or this Twitter thread) -

1) Retrospective cohort studies of RP patients who did/did not require salvage XRT sounds like folks are setting out to acquire the most bias-prone data possible. Even with elaborate methods to control for confounders, you're left with a study population of people who lived long enough to be included with one arm either having more aggressive cancer at baseline or having cancer which became more aggressive (+1000 other issues).

2) I haven't looked at this topic in a long time so perhaps subsequent data has weakened this hypothesis but - androgen deprivation itself has been linked to a 30%–40% increased risk of developing colorectal cancer (either through ADT or orchiectomy). It seems very plausible to me that there's some sort of synergistic effects driving some of these observations (along with uncontrolled confounders).

0.1%, 1%, 5%...it's all at the population level in the end, and just a guess on the individual level.

Someone wins the lottery every day, but the odds of winning are 1 in 292 million.
 
RT does cause secondary malignancies. The risk is correlated to dose and volume treated.
Beyond that, several other factors play a role: age, genetic predisposition, systemic agents, comorbidities, additional factors leading to cancer, competing risks.
Noone really knows if a larger area receiving the full dose outside of the PTV (as is usually the case with 2D-RT & 3D-CRT) is less worrisome than a larger area far away from the PTV receiving a low-dose bath, while the high-dose area is more tightly formed around the PTV.
Have a look at this dose distribution and tell me if you think 3D-CRT or IMRT will lead to a higher risk for a secondary malignancy in this patient.
1646563345337.png

I have no clue.


Prostate cancer is possibly one of the most tricky malignancies to try to calculate excessive risk for secondary malignances by comparing patients receiving surgery and those receiving RT due to numerous factors.

I think we should have enough data from breast cancer patients who have been treated for early breast cancer with lumpectomy + RT or mastectomy without adjuvant RT.
 
I think we should have enough data from breast cancer patients who have been treated for early breast cancer with lumpectomy + RT or mastectomy without adjuvant RT.
I don't know if we will ever really have "enough" data to ever arrive at a "real" number.

Obviously, the therapeutic use of ionizing radiation increases the risk of iatrogenic malignancy.

I have yet to see a risk estimate I really "believe". Currently, I tell patients that there's a risk. I frame it as "the risk of this treatment causing cancer is less than the risk of the cancer coming back if we don't do the treatment". If they press me for a number I say my guess is 0.5%-1%, but that's very uncertain.

It definitely influences the way I practice, in that the younger the patient the more I try to minimize volume of tissue irradiated vs an older patient.

But I feel like even though there could be enough data from the breast literature - it's all retrospective. Genetics and lifestyle have a tremendous impact on risk (to state the obvious, haha). Even if we designed the "best" prospective study possible, we would need 20-30 years of follow-up and a lot can happen in that amount of time.

I'm pessimistic that we'll have a satisfying answer...but if someone wants to prove me wrong at any point in my career, I would be so happy. Please prove me wrong, future physicians and scientists reading this post.
 
I don't know if we will ever really have "enough" data to ever arrive at a "real" number.

Obviously, the therapeutic use of ionizing radiation increases the risk of iatrogenic malignancy.

I have yet to see a risk estimate I really "believe". Currently, I tell patients that there's a risk. I frame it as "the risk of this treatment causing cancer is less than the risk of the cancer coming back if we don't do the treatment". If they press me for a number I say my guess is 0.5%-1%, but that's very uncertain.

It definitely influences the way I practice, in that the younger the patient the more I try to minimize volume of tissue irradiated vs an older patient.

But I feel like even though there could be enough data from the breast literature - it's all retrospective. Genetics and lifestyle have a tremendous impact on risk (to state the obvious, haha). Even if we designed the "best" prospective study possible, we would need 20-30 years of follow-up and a lot can happen in that amount of time.

I'm pessimistic that we'll have a satisfying answer...but if someone wants to prove me wrong at any point in my career, I would be so happy. Please prove me wrong, future physicians and scientists reading this post.
Agreed. I have made it a habit to discuss the prospect of secondary, RT-induced malignancies up in my initial consultation with all patients, but I really only emphasize it when the patient is younger, and even then, I always quote a relatively broad estimate and try to put it in the perspective of priorities.

Even if we studied this prospectively and rigorously with a huge cohort of people, RT techniques evolve. 30+ years out, whose to say anything we do right now will be the same? I can't tell you how many times I have heard Med Oncs in tumor board discussion pushing back against RT for HL cases, quoting the breast cancer risk based on mantle fields, as if we still do that routinely for everyone.
 
Agreed. I have made it a habit to discuss the prospect of secondary, RT-induced malignancies up in my initial consultation with all patients, but I really only emphasize it when the patient is younger, and even then, I always quote a relatively broad estimate and try to put it in the perspective of priorities.

Even if we studied this prospectively and rigorously with a huge cohort of people, RT techniques evolve. 30+ years out, whose to say anything we do right now will be the same? I can't tell you how many times I have heard Med Oncs in tumor board discussion pushing back against RT for HL cases, quoting the breast cancer risk based on mantle fields, as if we still do that routinely for everyone.
Your SDN username makes your post even better!
 
Agreed. I have made it a habit to discuss the prospect of secondary, RT-induced malignancies up in my initial consultation with all patients, but I really only emphasize it when the patient is younger, and even then, I always quote a relatively broad estimate and try to put it in the perspective of priorities.

Even if we studied this prospectively and rigorously with a huge cohort of people, RT techniques evolve. 30+ years out, whose to say anything we do right now will be the same? I can't tell you how many times I have heard Med Oncs in tumor board discussion pushing back against RT for HL cases, quoting the breast cancer risk based on mantle fields, as if we still do that routinely for everyone.
just quote them the awful side affects of the mustard gas from MOPP
 
RT does cause secondary malignancies. The risk is correlated to dose and volume treated
Again (and I'm not sure it's answerable) are there clinical outcomes data that increased field (or target) volume treated has correlated with higher second cancer risk? I know we have some photon vs proton data, and the standard thinking is "proton has less low dose region, so less cancers," but even there it's a huge amount of modeling/maths data and not so much hard clinical data, right? And it's apples (protons) vs oranges (photons). So I'm wondering: is there some big-apple (large X-ray field) vs little-apple (small X-ray field) clinical data? Anywhere? Does this data actually exist in brachy (little-apple) vs beam (big-apple) second malignancy risk? (Even there though we may need to accept there's some confounding with both dose rates and photon energies.)

Radiation, in theory, only needs to kickstart one normal cell into a cancerous cell to cause a second malignancy. There are about 5 billion cells per cc of human tissue. We might possibly irradiate 15000 more cc's w/ a low dose 1-2 Gy "dose bath" in a whole pelvis/prostate vs prostate-only RT case, or maybe 75 trillion more normal cells. It should be easy to spot more SMs in whole pelvis vs prostate only RT! However, I don't think that's ever been spotted. So there is something about the probabilities here, and the supposed pure stochasticity of SM risk, (and Peto's paradox), that is not fitting so nicely with what we think we understand IMHO.

I have always remembered this paragraph from Hall:

"It is interesting to note that the increase in relative risk for carcinoma of the lung, which was exposed to relatively low dose (about 0.5 Gy) is of the same order as that for carcinomas of the bladder, rectum, and colon, all of which were subject to much higher doses (typically more than 5 Gy). This pattern may reflect the fact that actively dividing cells or cells under hormonal control can be efficiently induced by low doses of radiation, as evidenced by atomic bomb survivors, but the cancer risk at high doses decreases because of the effects of cell killing. In contrast to this pattern for radiation-induced carcinomas, sarcomas generally appear only in heavily irradiated sites, for example close to the treatment volume, at which large radiation doses are needed to produce sufficient tissue damage to stimulate cellular renewal in other mostly dormant cells."
Even if we studied this prospectively and rigorously with a huge cohort of people, RT techniques evolve. 30+ years out, whose to say anything we do right now will be the same? I can't tell you how many times I have heard Med Oncs in tumor board discussion pushing back against RT for HL cases, quoting the breast cancer risk based on mantle fields, as if we still do that routinely for everyone.
One of the best anti-RT screeds (by a guy named Dan Longo) ever penned dealt with this issue. It was a 2005 editorial on a paper that had looked at the "largest number of cases of secondary breast cancer after treatment for Hodgkin disease published to date"... 106(!) patients. Because it was so screed-y, but makes such good points, I feel like it should be in back of every rad onc's mind, especially our young rad oncs, so I am going to paste it here (I bolded the "good part"), and then ask a question:

Pyrrhus became King of Epirus in Northern Greece in 306 BC . He was a brilliant warrior and strategist; for example, he employed elephants in his attack force 60 years before Hannibal's famous use of these animals in the Second Punic War. In 280 BC , he invaded Italy and won a great battle at Heraclea but suffered enormous losses of men in his army. A few months later, in 279 BC , he won a second major battle at Asculum, again enduring severe and irreplaceable casualties. After being complimented on his success by one of his men, he is said to have responded, “Another such victory and we are undone.” Thus, through the centuries the term “Pyrrhic victory” has been used to mean a conquest won at too great a cost for the victor.
In this issue of the Journal, Travis et al. ( 1 ) have studied the largest number of cases of secondary breast cancer after treatment for Hodgkin disease (106 patients) published to date. Most epidemiologic studies provide relative risks but never translate the results into an absolute risk that can be shared in a way the patient understands. However, Travis et al. have done a case–control study and computed cumulative absolute risks for developing breast cancer as a function of dose of radiation therapy and use of alkylating agent–based chemotherapy. The results are shocking. For a 25-year-old woman who received typical mantle-field radiation therapy for her Hodgkin disease, the risk of developing breast cancer by age 55 years is 29% (95% confidence interval [CI] = 20.2% to 40.1%). For a 25-year-old woman receiving a lower dose of radiation (20–40 Gy), the risk of developing breast cancer by age 55 years is 24.6% (95% CI = 16.6% to 24.8%). In addition, no evidence suggests that the risk declines after 30 years. According to Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results (SEER) data, a 25-year-old woman in the general population has about a 3% risk of developing breast cancer by age 55 years.
Absolute risks are much easier to put in proper perspective than relative risks. Recall that millions of women stopped taking hormone replacement therapy that was controlling their menopausal symptoms and preserving their bone mineral density because of an increased relative risk of breast cancer that translates into quite a modest cumulative absolute risk ( 2 ) . A 50-year-old woman has one chance in 16 of developing breast cancer over the next 30 years (6.25%). A 50-year-old woman who takes hormone replacement therapy for 10 years has one chance in 13 of developing breast cancer over the next 30 years (7.7%). The absolute risk is increased 1.5% in 30 years; yet women and physicians have largely abandoned hormone replacement therapy. Unlike Hodgkin disease, menopausal symptoms are not life-threatening; however, the point is that some medical practices change dramatically as a consequence of only small changes in absolute risk.
We have been slow to recognize the many costs to the patient of using radiation therapy to treat Hodgkin disease; or, if not slow to recognize the costs, then slow to change our choice of therapy because of the costs. Most of the 7350 people diagnosed with Hodgkin disease in 2005 will be treated with combined modality therapy. The rationale for this physician behavior appears to be the hope (for there is precious little evidence) that lowering the dose of radiation therapy to 24 Gy or so will dramatically lower the risk of the major side effects, including second cancers and accelerated coronary artery disease.
Most evidence suggests that lower doses of exposure to radiation produce a lower risk of developing second cancers, but the risk never reaches zero. In the dose range for therapeutic radiation in Hodgkin disease, the dose–risk curve is not deeply sloped. The article by Travis et al. does not suggest that the risk falls very much in the range of 20–40 Gy (see their table 2). Most therapeutic radiation for Hodgkin disease used as a supplement to chemotherapy is given in the dose range of 20–24 Gy. Breast cancer incidence increases as a consequence of therapeutic radiation administered at low doses for benign diseases and even from repeated diagnostic radiography [for review, see the work of Boice ( 3 ) ]. Factors affecting risk are complicated and include age, age at exposure, dose, energy of the radiation, duration of exposure, condition being treated, and overall risk of breast cancer in the individual and in the population exposed ( 4 ) . In women who receive breast irradiation as part of their treatment for primary breast cancer, the nonirradiated breast receives an average radiation dose of 2.82 Gy ( 5 ) . Such women younger than 45 years at time of treatment experience a 60% increase in second cancers in the incidentally irradiated contralateral breast. Even the internal radiation that makes it to the breast during radiation therapy for cervical cancer can increase the risk of breast cancer. In one series ( 6 ) , the relative risk of breast cancer was 3.1 (95% CI = 0.5 to 20.0) for exposures of 0.5 Gy or greater in women without ovaries with cervical cancer (the absence of which would be expected to reduce the risk). No increased risk was noted in the group whose breasts received 0.24 Gy or less. As pointed out in the June 2005 report of the 7th Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation (BEIR) Committee, done under the auspices of the National Academy of Sciences, there is no safe dose of radiation. Resistance to this notion must play a role in the continued use of radiation therapy in Hodgkin disease treatment, especially its use in the face of an effective alternative, combination chemotherapy alone.
Travis et al. suggest that their projections do not apply in patients treated with “modern approaches” involving limited-field radiation therapy. That suggestion seems weak at best. The last person treated in their cohort had been disease free for 1 year on December 31, 1994, 11 years ago. Has someone invented a method of delivering mantle-field radiation therapy that is novel in the last decade? Does any new method permit radiating axillary nodes without irradiating the breast? Can one deliver radiation to the mediastinum without it passing through the overlying skin and skin appendages? Has any new method been proven effective in curing the disease or in improving the efficacy of chemotherapy? Has this novel, effective modification of the mantle field been used in patients monitored for 20 years or more and been shown to reduce the risk of second cancers and premature coronary artery disease? Would these not normally be the minimal requirements for routinely using an intervention that had been shown to produce breast cancer in up to 30% of the women in whom it was used?
What is most perplexing about the persistent practice of using radiation therapy routinely in the treatment of Hodgkin disease is the availability of alternative approaches (combination chemotherapy alone) that are just as successful in curing the disease and are not associated with such a magnitude of late fatal complications. The literature is quite clear that combined radiation therapy and chemotherapy does not produce a superior overall survival to chemotherapy alone in any stage of disease ( 79 ) . Why accept any increased risk of breast cancer from a treatment that is not required?
Travis et al. provided us with an important, quantitative way to speak to our patients with Hodgkin disease about the risk of developing breast cancer after radiation therapy. We need similar information about all the other kinds of radiation-induced cancers and about the radiation-accelerated coronary artery disease that affects patients cured of Hodgkin disease with therapy that includes radiation. Indeed, we need similar information about long-term risks for all interventions for all the diseases we treat. Given the facts about the enormous risk of breast cancer after mantle-field radiation therapy, we now need to act on them.
For the patients who have already been exposed to radiation therapy and remain at risk, we need to counsel them and provide heightened surveillance. We should look at the risk of male breast cancer in men who were treated with mantle-field radiation therapy for Hodgkin disease. We know very little about how radiation-induced breast cancer relates to sporadic breast cancer biologically. What percentage of patients has estrogen and progesterone receptor–positive disease? Does the pattern of gene expression resemble sporadic localized breast cancer or metastatic breast cancer? Although there is much that remains unknown, we have some tools to combat this problem. From the lower incidence of secondary radiation-induced breast cancers in women without ovaries, women whose ovaries have been irradiated, and women with alkylating agent–induced menopause, we can infer that many (perhaps half) of these radiation-induced breast cancers might be prevented by 5 years of tamoxifen therapy. In addition, women who received mantle-field radiation therapy should be included with other women at increased risk in clinical trials evaluating newer chemoprevention strategies (e.g., aromatase inhibitors). Given that the level of risk in some subsets of women (e.g., women treated with 20–40 Gy at age 25 or 30 years have a 25%–34% risk of developing breast cancer in 30 years) are as high as some women with hereditary breast cancer, consideration needs to be given to prophylactic mastectomy for those at greatest risk. Finally, we need to stop exposing women to the risk of subsequent breast cancer (and other malignancies and heart disease) by needlessly using radiation therapy as a component of their Hodgkin disease treatment. A Pyrrhic victory in the absence of reasonable alternative ways to accomplish the goal can be tragic but necessary; a Pyrrhic victory that could be avoided while still accomplishing the goal is just foolish.

Do we now have any clinical outcomes data that involved site radiotherapy is causing less breast cancers in patients versus mantle field RT? The last I recall looking/thinking of this was a 2015 NEJM article: "The risk of second solid cancers did not appear to be lower among patients treated in the most recent calendar period studied (1989–2000) than among those treated in earlier periods."
 
Again (and I'm not sure it's answerable) are there clinical outcomes data that increased field (or target) volume treated has correlated with higher second cancer risk? I know we have some photon vs proton data, and the standard thinking is "proton has less low dose region, so less cancers," but even there it's a huge amount of modeling/maths data and not so much hard clinical data, right? And it's apples (protons) vs oranges (photons). So I'm wondering: is there some big-apple (large X-ray field) vs little-apple (small X-ray field) clinical data? Anywhere? Does this data actually exist in brachy (little-apple) vs beam (big-apple) second malignancy risk? (Even there though we may need to accept there's some confounding with both dose rates and photon energies.)

Radiation, in theory, only needs to kickstart one normal cell into a cancerous cell to cause a second malignancy. There are about 5 billion cells per cc of human tissue. We might possibly irradiate 15000 more cc's w/ a low dose 1-2 Gy "dose bath" in a whole pelvis/prostate vs prostate-only RT case, or maybe 75 trillion more normal cells. It should be easy to spot more SMs in whole pelvis vs prostate only RT! However, I don't think that's ever been spotted. So there is something about the probabilities here, and the supposed pure stochasticity of SM risk, (and Peto's paradox), that is not fitting so nicely with what we think we understand IMHO.

I have always remembered this paragraph from Hall:

"It is interesting to note that the increase in relative risk for carcinoma of the lung, which was exposed to relatively low dose (about 0.5 Gy) is of the same order as that for carcinomas of the bladder, rectum, and colon, all of which were subject to much higher doses (typically more than 5 Gy). This pattern may reflect the fact that actively dividing cells or cells under hormonal control can be efficiently induced by low doses of radiation, as evidenced by atomic bomb survivors, but the cancer risk at high doses decreases because of the effects of cell killing. In contrast to this pattern for radiation-induced carcinomas, sarcomas generally appear only in heavily irradiated sites, for example close to the treatment volume, at which large radiation doses are needed to produce sufficient tissue damage to stimulate cellular renewal in other mostly dormant cells."

One of the best anti-RT screeds (by a guy named Dan Longo) ever penned dealt with this issue. It was a 2005 editorial on a paper that had looked at the "largest number of cases of secondary breast cancer after treatment for Hodgkin disease published to date"... 106(!) patients. Because it was so screed-y, but makes such good points, I feel like it should be in back of every rad onc's mind, especially our young rad oncs, so I am going to paste it here (I bolded the "good part"), and then ask a question:

Pyrrhus became King of Epirus in Northern Greece in 306 BC . He was a brilliant warrior and strategist; for example, he employed elephants in his attack force 60 years before Hannibal's famous use of these animals in the Second Punic War. In 280 BC , he invaded Italy and won a great battle at Heraclea but suffered enormous losses of men in his army. A few months later, in 279 BC , he won a second major battle at Asculum, again enduring severe and irreplaceable casualties. After being complimented on his success by one of his men, he is said to have responded, “Another such victory and we are undone.” Thus, through the centuries the term “Pyrrhic victory” has been used to mean a conquest won at too great a cost for the victor.
In this issue of the Journal, Travis et al. ( 1 ) have studied the largest number of cases of secondary breast cancer after treatment for Hodgkin disease (106 patients) published to date. Most epidemiologic studies provide relative risks but never translate the results into an absolute risk that can be shared in a way the patient understands. However, Travis et al. have done a case–control study and computed cumulative absolute risks for developing breast cancer as a function of dose of radiation therapy and use of alkylating agent–based chemotherapy. The results are shocking. For a 25-year-old woman who received typical mantle-field radiation therapy for her Hodgkin disease, the risk of developing breast cancer by age 55 years is 29% (95% confidence interval [CI] = 20.2% to 40.1%). For a 25-year-old woman receiving a lower dose of radiation (20–40 Gy), the risk of developing breast cancer by age 55 years is 24.6% (95% CI = 16.6% to 24.8%). In addition, no evidence suggests that the risk declines after 30 years. According to Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results (SEER) data, a 25-year-old woman in the general population has about a 3% risk of developing breast cancer by age 55 years.
Absolute risks are much easier to put in proper perspective than relative risks. Recall that millions of women stopped taking hormone replacement therapy that was controlling their menopausal symptoms and preserving their bone mineral density because of an increased relative risk of breast cancer that translates into quite a modest cumulative absolute risk ( 2 ) . A 50-year-old woman has one chance in 16 of developing breast cancer over the next 30 years (6.25%). A 50-year-old woman who takes hormone replacement therapy for 10 years has one chance in 13 of developing breast cancer over the next 30 years (7.7%). The absolute risk is increased 1.5% in 30 years; yet women and physicians have largely abandoned hormone replacement therapy. Unlike Hodgkin disease, menopausal symptoms are not life-threatening; however, the point is that some medical practices change dramatically as a consequence of only small changes in absolute risk.
We have been slow to recognize the many costs to the patient of using radiation therapy to treat Hodgkin disease; or, if not slow to recognize the costs, then slow to change our choice of therapy because of the costs. Most of the 7350 people diagnosed with Hodgkin disease in 2005 will be treated with combined modality therapy. The rationale for this physician behavior appears to be the hope (for there is precious little evidence) that lowering the dose of radiation therapy to 24 Gy or so will dramatically lower the risk of the major side effects, including second cancers and accelerated coronary artery disease.
Most evidence suggests that lower doses of exposure to radiation produce a lower risk of developing second cancers, but the risk never reaches zero. In the dose range for therapeutic radiation in Hodgkin disease, the dose–risk curve is not deeply sloped. The article by Travis et al. does not suggest that the risk falls very much in the range of 20–40 Gy (see their table 2). Most therapeutic radiation for Hodgkin disease used as a supplement to chemotherapy is given in the dose range of 20–24 Gy. Breast cancer incidence increases as a consequence of therapeutic radiation administered at low doses for benign diseases and even from repeated diagnostic radiography [for review, see the work of Boice ( 3 ) ]. Factors affecting risk are complicated and include age, age at exposure, dose, energy of the radiation, duration of exposure, condition being treated, and overall risk of breast cancer in the individual and in the population exposed ( 4 ) . In women who receive breast irradiation as part of their treatment for primary breast cancer, the nonirradiated breast receives an average radiation dose of 2.82 Gy ( 5 ) . Such women younger than 45 years at time of treatment experience a 60% increase in second cancers in the incidentally irradiated contralateral breast. Even the internal radiation that makes it to the breast during radiation therapy for cervical cancer can increase the risk of breast cancer. In one series ( 6 ) , the relative risk of breast cancer was 3.1 (95% CI = 0.5 to 20.0) for exposures of 0.5 Gy or greater in women without ovaries with cervical cancer (the absence of which would be expected to reduce the risk). No increased risk was noted in the group whose breasts received 0.24 Gy or less. As pointed out in the June 2005 report of the 7th Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation (BEIR) Committee, done under the auspices of the National Academy of Sciences, there is no safe dose of radiation. Resistance to this notion must play a role in the continued use of radiation therapy in Hodgkin disease treatment, especially its use in the face of an effective alternative, combination chemotherapy alone.
Travis et al. suggest that their projections do not apply in patients treated with “modern approaches” involving limited-field radiation therapy. That suggestion seems weak at best. The last person treated in their cohort had been disease free for 1 year on December 31, 1994, 11 years ago. Has someone invented a method of delivering mantle-field radiation therapy that is novel in the last decade? Does any new method permit radiating axillary nodes without irradiating the breast? Can one deliver radiation to the mediastinum without it passing through the overlying skin and skin appendages? Has any new method been proven effective in curing the disease or in improving the efficacy of chemotherapy? Has this novel, effective modification of the mantle field been used in patients monitored for 20 years or more and been shown to reduce the risk of second cancers and premature coronary artery disease? Would these not normally be the minimal requirements for routinely using an intervention that had been shown to produce breast cancer in up to 30% of the women in whom it was used?
What is most perplexing about the persistent practice of using radiation therapy routinely in the treatment of Hodgkin disease is the availability of alternative approaches (combination chemotherapy alone) that are just as successful in curing the disease and are not associated with such a magnitude of late fatal complications. The literature is quite clear that combined radiation therapy and chemotherapy does not produce a superior overall survival to chemotherapy alone in any stage of disease ( 79 ) . Why accept any increased risk of breast cancer from a treatment that is not required?
Travis et al. provided us with an important, quantitative way to speak to our patients with Hodgkin disease about the risk of developing breast cancer after radiation therapy. We need similar information about all the other kinds of radiation-induced cancers and about the radiation-accelerated coronary artery disease that affects patients cured of Hodgkin disease with therapy that includes radiation. Indeed, we need similar information about long-term risks for all interventions for all the diseases we treat. Given the facts about the enormous risk of breast cancer after mantle-field radiation therapy, we now need to act on them.
For the patients who have already been exposed to radiation therapy and remain at risk, we need to counsel them and provide heightened surveillance. We should look at the risk of male breast cancer in men who were treated with mantle-field radiation therapy for Hodgkin disease. We know very little about how radiation-induced breast cancer relates to sporadic breast cancer biologically. What percentage of patients has estrogen and progesterone receptor–positive disease? Does the pattern of gene expression resemble sporadic localized breast cancer or metastatic breast cancer? Although there is much that remains unknown, we have some tools to combat this problem. From the lower incidence of secondary radiation-induced breast cancers in women without ovaries, women whose ovaries have been irradiated, and women with alkylating agent–induced menopause, we can infer that many (perhaps half) of these radiation-induced breast cancers might be prevented by 5 years of tamoxifen therapy. In addition, women who received mantle-field radiation therapy should be included with other women at increased risk in clinical trials evaluating newer chemoprevention strategies (e.g., aromatase inhibitors). Given that the level of risk in some subsets of women (e.g., women treated with 20–40 Gy at age 25 or 30 years have a 25%–34% risk of developing breast cancer in 30 years) are as high as some women with hereditary breast cancer, consideration needs to be given to prophylactic mastectomy for those at greatest risk. Finally, we need to stop exposing women to the risk of subsequent breast cancer (and other malignancies and heart disease) by needlessly using radiation therapy as a component of their Hodgkin disease treatment. A Pyrrhic victory in the absence of reasonable alternative ways to accomplish the goal can be tragic but necessary; a Pyrrhic victory that could be avoided while still accomplishing the goal is just foolish.

Do we now have any clinical outcomes data that involved site radiotherapy is causing less breast cancers in patients versus mantle field RT? The last I recall looking/thinking of this was a 2015 NEJM article: "The risk of second solid cancers did not appear to be lower among patients treated in the most recent calendar period studied (1989–2000) than among those treated in earlier periods."
Ah I remember this one from Dan Longo -- among many others he has penned. Ridden this hobby horse in a mostly successful attempt to make lymphoma a chemo only disease. I think to the detriment of some patients. And as a NEJM editor he has blocked out many a radiation paper. But yeah, as a field that's some of what we're up against.

On the other hand, immensely enjoy throwing this SEER analysis Use of external beam radiotherapy is associated with reduced incidence of second primary head and neck cancer: a SEER database analysis - PubMed at the surgeons when they bring up second malignancy risk in HNC.
 
Again (and I'm not sure it's answerable) are there clinical outcomes data that increased field (or target) volume treated has correlated with higher second cancer risk? I know we have some photon vs proton data, and the standard thinking is "proton has less low dose region, so less cancers," but even there it's a huge amount of modeling/maths data and not so much hard clinical data, right? And it's apples (protons) vs oranges (photons). So I'm wondering: is there some big-apple (large X-ray field) vs little-apple (small X-ray field) clinical data? Anywhere? Does this data actually exist in brachy (little-apple) vs beam (big-apple) second malignancy risk? (Even there though we may need to accept there's some confounding with both dose rates and photon energies.)
There is some limited data from seminoma (one cancer pretty much noones dies from):

In this retrospective analysis, patients receiving dog-leg / hockey-stick irradiation for seminoma had a higher incidence of secondary malignancies than expected, while those that received only a paraaortic strip did not.
 
There is some limited data from seminoma (one cancer pretty much noones dies from):

In this retrospective analysis, patients receiving dog-leg / hockey-stick irradiation for seminoma had a higher incidence of secondary malignancies than expected, while those that received only a paraaortic strip did not.
Thank you!
 
There is some limited data from seminoma (one cancer pretty much noones dies from):

In this retrospective analysis, patients receiving dog-leg / hockey-stick irradiation for seminoma had a higher incidence of secondary malignancies than expected, while those that received only a paraaortic strip did not.
I was getting excited over this paper and then I read this:

kKbCFBt.png


So am I still left "Longo-ing" for statistically significant differences in SM risk based on field volume? Trillions (quadrillions in the whole study population) more normal cells in the low dose bath with dog leg vs PA irradiation, and the signal for more SMs w/ dog leg was weak to zero.

And look at how RT utilization changed over time!

kFvpt9r.png
 
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I know, I know, I know... 🙂

That's why I said "limited". I had to present this paper for our journal club. 🙂

This paper also exists (deals with volume issues in Hodgkin lymphoma):

I like to cite this paper when talking about secondary malignancies after RT for breast cancer:
1 out of 200 patients may experience an RT-related secondary malignancy.
 
I know, I know, I know... 🙂

That's why I said "limited". I had to present this paper for our journal club. 🙂

This paper also exists (deals with volume issues in Hodgkin lymphoma):

I like to cite this paper when talking about secondary malignancies after RT for breast cancer:
1 out of 200 patients may experience an RT-related secondary malignancy.
I would say that based on the seminoma paper and that Canadian breast paper there is some weak (but comforting thank goodness) data that less volume irradiated correlates with less SC risk. Thanks for citing those papers; I honestly had never skeptically questioned the concept before although intuitively it should be so. Yet still there is quite a bit of disconnect between what we would expect from a linear no threshold effect on each and every normal cell and what we see. So now, as we all can admit, not doing full regional nodal RT in T1N1 ER+ breast cancer in a 55 year old will give less SM risk 🙂
 
also the podcast makes clear just how complicated this question is in terms of trying to figure out the right number of rad oncs we need. it is a near impossible task. Grateful to Dr. Chirag Shah's leadership here and engaging with outside consulting firms.
 
1) Retrospective cohort studies of RP patients who did/did not require salvage XRT sounds like folks are setting out to acquire the most bias-prone data possible. Even with elaborate methods to control for confounders, you're left with a study population of people who lived long enough to be included with one arm either having more aggressive cancer at baseline or having cancer which became more aggressive (+1000 other issues).

2) I haven't looked at this topic in a long time so perhaps subsequent data has weakened this hypothesis but - androgen deprivation itself has been linked to a 30%–40% increased risk of developing colorectal cancer (either through ADT or orchiectomy). It seems very plausible to me that there's some sort of synergistic effects driving some of these observations (along with uncontrolled confounders).

0.1%, 1%, 5%...it's all at the population level in the end, and just a guess on the individual level.

Someone wins the lottery every day, but the odds of winning are 1 in 292 million.

You’re not wrong, definitely selection bias in who recieves salvage xrt though at least they’ve been “pre screened” by already getting RP.

As for ADT and cancer, that may be true, but the SPCG trial both sides got ADT, so unless there is an ADT XRT cancer causing interaction it shouldn’t have been a big factor.

Not to say the SPCG data is without issue. XRT improved OS in the trial so there are more people at risk for second cancer. Not sure If/how they dealt with that statistically. Also a lot of the excess cancer was bladder as expected, but the other driver of excess cancer was lung, which doesn’t make much sense biologically, though I guess part of the point of RCTs is it doesn’t have to make sense to be true?

All that is to say is I generally agree with what most of you say. There is a risk, we don’t really know what it is exactly. For me it is one of the factors that makes me steer my 50 or 55 year olds towards surgery and my 70+ patients towards xrt though it is nowhere near an absolute contraindication.
 
also the podcast makes clear just how complicated this question is in terms of trying to figure out the right number of rad oncs we need. it is a near impossible task. Grateful to Dr. Chirag Shah's leadership here and engaging with outside consulting firms.
Chirag has been pretty clear over the years (a few Twitter postings if you look) what he thinks the number should be. Trying to throw your hands up in the air and saying we don't really know and therefore can't take action is a really ridic position to take.

Remember, we have clearly been over training for awhile now so overshooting it won't really affect things badly if that happens.

Throughout the history of the Canadian and US rad onc job market, there have been multiple instances of a poor job market, never a shortage of ROs
 
Chirag has been pretty clear over the years (a few Twitter postings if you look) what he thinks the number should be. Trying to throw your hands up in the air and saying we don't really know and therefore can't take action is a really ridic position to take.

Remember, we have clearly been over training for awhile now so overshooting it won't really affect things badly if that happens.

Throughout the history of the Canadian and US rad onc job market, there have been multiple instances of a poor job market, never a shortage of ROs

You didn’t listen to the podcast and are instead rambling.

Nor did I throw my hands up and say we can’t take action?

Just a useless post.
 
The post that started the thread was about this paper showing a 13x SIR of second cancer and 3.5% absolute second cancer risk over 15 years. Caveat is young adult/pediatric population which is different biology, but still scary numbers.
I can guarantee you that every pediatric radiation oncologist has some feeling of the “scary numbers” when they treat patients.
 
also the podcast makes clear just how complicated this question is in terms of trying to figure out the right number of rad oncs we need. it is a near impossible task. Grateful to Dr. Chirag Shah's leadership here and engaging with outside consulting firms.
Absurd. What if we had 0 new residents, and let the current ones graduate. We would still be oversupplied with 7000 radoncs in 2030s as baby boomers die off, and new cases really fall of the cliff. Since it’s impossible, should residents flee the field?
 
You didn’t listen to the podcast and are instead rambling.

Nor did I throw my hands up and say we can’t take action?

Just a useless post.
Dude, just quit while you're behind. I'll get to the podcast later, but that has zero to with my original post.. forget your Adderall today?

 
Out of curiosity went through the programs and checked number of residents and attendings best I could. Wanted to see how many programs would close or shrink based solely on faculty:resident ratio change.

Assuming some programs won't get their act together and hire more faculty, 6 programs may close. Not sure should name names, don't want them to have a heads up.

Out of 771 total slots (per old google docs and acgme), 119 would disappear. Almost 30 slots a year.

Remains to be seen the impact of the limitation on cases of 75% at 1 site or 90% at 2 sites (looking at you HROP), or sub-site case logs. Of course this is all a few years in the future.
 
Dude, just quit while you're behind. I'll get to the podcast later, but that has zero to with my original post.. forget your Adderall today?



Yeah again this was a made up argument in your head. Read my post again.


Anyways see you at the next proton meeting, brotha!
 
also the podcast makes clear just how complicated this question is in terms of trying to figure out the right number of rad oncs we need
I agree; I think it is complicated. However, the complication is the gathering of the data. If we had accurate data, it wouldn't be complicated AT ALL (yes, I just shouted). The approaches so far have been so superficial and unthorough they've almost always (always?) looked silly through the retrospectoscope. Probably a lot of analogies I could use, but figuring out how to compute pi seemed ridiculously complicated (one guy spent his whole lifetime brute forcing it) until Isaac Newton came along and tried a more thorough and reliable and much quicker approach.
 
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I agree; I think it is complicated. However, the complication is the gathering of the data. If we had accurate data, it wouldn't be complicated AT ALL. The approaches so far have been so superficial and unthorough they've almost always (always?) looked silly through the retrospectoscope. Probably a lot of analogies I could use, but figuring out how to compute pi seemed ridiculously complicated (one guy spent his whole lifetime brute forcing it) until Isaac Newton came along and tried a more thorough and reliable and much quicker approach.

Agree, it’s getting all the data, and as the panelists on the podcasts pointed out, there are many nuances to the data that we need to get.

Chirag pointed out that many of the nuances brought up will hopefully be acquired by the workforce panel in coordination with other stakeholders with help of the consultants
 
the podcast makes clear just how complicated this question is in terms of trying to figure out the right number of rad oncs we need. it is a near impossible task. Grateful to Dr. Chirag Shah's leadership here

Yeah again this was a made up argument in your head. Read my post again.


Anyways see you at the next proton meeting, brotha!
*Posts tweet showing Chirag's number*.

Clearly not that complicated, but whatever dude. Keep arguing with yourself. Seems to be your thing here on SDN when you aren't posting rando tweets.

Again, if you want to slow walk the process with consultants while the specialty is actively soaping 30+ a year, that's fine, just don't be surprised when people call out that approach as a little ridiculous. Everyone knows we need to reduce spots significantly, demonstrated by the fact that even the rrc and Co are finally getting their act together. I guess the tail can wag the dog.

Far more was done in the 90s and they didn't even to need waste the money on consultants
 
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there are many nuances to the data that we need to get
I find myself pushing back against this notion. There are no nuances. It's pure math. It may be math with boundary limits, and those limits are the only "nuance." And by boundary limits I mean we should specify a priori, before we do any workforce analyses, of what the average workload should be for the average radiation oncologist and put some boundary around that... which if we find that the workforce numbers fall outside those boundaries, we make adjustments.
 
I find myself pushing back against this notion. There are no nuances. It's pure math. It may be math with boundary limits, and those limits are the only "nuance." And by boundary limits I mean we should specify a priori, before we do any workforce analyses, of what the average workload should be for the average radiation oncologist and put some boundary around that... which if we find that the workforce numbers fall outside those boundaries, we make adjustments.


Pure math is math. Getting the x,y, and the Z of it is the nuance.
 
*Posts tweet showing Chirag's number*.

Clearly not that complicated, but whatever dude. Keep arguing with yourself. Seems to be your thing here on SDN when you aren't posting rando tweets.

Again, if you want to slow walk the process with consultants while the specialty is actively soaping 30+ a year, that's fine, just don't be surprised when people call out that approach as a little ridiculous. Everyone knows we need to reduce spots significantly, demonstrated by the fact that even the rrc and Co are finally getting their act together. I guess the tail can wag the dog.

Far more was done in the 90s and they didn't even to need waste the money on consultants

Chirag shah, Todd S, Beckta, others on the podcast : ‘it’s complicated’

Medgator : ‘nah not complicated at all’
 
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