Rad Onc Twitter

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I don’t think we even need a pathway in residency. We need an indication for IO/XRT that is independent of decisions on other systemic therapies.

I’m sure you could learn to prescribe IO for a specific indication in a weekend seminar or even over a drug rep dinner.


I just think it’s dumb that a med onc would be prescribing the cis etopside whilst you want to prescribe the atezo. Like…. Incredibly dumb. And impractical. And confusing for all involved. And error prone. And dumb. Regardless if you referred to the med onc or vice versa.
 
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But I just don’t see a current indication that it makes practical sense outside of some pissing match for pissing match sake.
What about a metastatic patient on maintenance IO?

Patient sees both RadOnc and MedOnc upfront, the decision is made to do IO monotherapy (from a systemic perspective), RadOnc delivers SBRT (or some other form of radiation), then patient follows longitudinally with RadOnc (because XRT would be the treatment of choice for oligoprogression anyway).

I can only say this arrangement would be welcome in my particular hospital if I offered to do it, because it would offload the MedOnc schedule.

I haven't done it mainly because I don't have the bandwidth to be offloading MedOnc. But, at least in my particular hospital in my particular arrangement of various factors, this would be something I could do like, today.

Not necessarily advocating for this of course, just bringing it up.
 
Many medoncs don't even want the scheduling deload, either for personal/financial or paternalistic reasons. Good luck trying to "take some things off their hands"

Mine continuing to follow my lung SBRT patients causes many problems (too many cooks in the kitchen), and I'm trying to stop it
 
Many medoncs don't even want the scheduling deload, either for personal/financial or paternalistic reasons. Good luck trying to "take some things off their hands"

Mine continuing to follow my lung SBRT patients causes many problems (too many cooks in the kitchen), and I'm trying to stop it
Aren’t we* supposed to be giving IO after SBRT for lung now

*sending all stage ones to med onc for consult
 
I'm going to avoid stating my opinion on whether we should/should not give IO, because that part isn't important…

To me, this is actually the most important.

If an independent radonc clinic were to start giving IO and then begin to train residents (either through a rotation of formal fellowship), would those of you here be supportive of this big step our field is taking or shame them as another means to kiss medonc’s a—
 
To me, this is actually the most important.

If an independent radonc clinic were to start giving IO and then begin to train residents (either through a rotation of formal fellowship), would those of you here be supportive of this big step our field is taking or shame them as another means to kiss medonc’s a—
Ah to be clear - I meant in this particular discussion in this particular thread.

I absolutely think we should give IO.

I'm just perplexed by the level of emotion going on this debate. Maybe I'm reading too far into this? Wouldn't be the first time I've done that.

I think that it shouldn't be REQUIRED to give IO as a RadOnc. Same as like, radiopharm or brachy.

Just to go back to my personal practice, I know for a fact I would be supported by the hospital and MedOnc if I wanted to start prescribing IO tomorrow.

It's literally why I haven't done it here yet. It's a slippery slope. I don't have the bandwidth at the moment.

The one thing this thread has made clear is how diverse practice patterns can be. Unfortunately, there's no conversation about this at the national level. A certain small subset of RadOncs dominate the publishing sphere, which drives discourse. That sphere is also where we all were residents.

I wish there was a true "practice census" where you just had a team of people go out and randomly interview practices across the country, collecting data. I think it would be eye-opening.
 
Ah to be clear - I meant in this particular discussion in this particular thread.

I absolutely think we should give IO.

I'm just perplexed by the level of emotion going on this debate. Maybe I'm reading too far into this? Wouldn't be the first time I've done that.

I think that it shouldn't be REQUIRED to give IO as a RadOnc. Same as like, radiopharm or brachy.

Just to go back to my personal practice, I know for a fact I would be supported by the hospital and MedOnc if I wanted to start prescribing IO tomorrow.

It's literally why I haven't done it here yet. It's a slippery slope. I don't have the bandwidth at the moment.

The one thing this thread has made clear is how diverse practice patterns can be. Unfortunately, there's no conversation about this at the national level. A certain small subset of RadOncs dominate the publishing sphere, which drives discourse. That sphere is also where we all were residents.

I wish there was a true "practice census" where you just had a team of people go out and randomly interview practices across the country, collecting data. I think it would be eye-opening.

I agree completely. What one clinic thinks is standard of care, the next one thinks is absolute heresy and should never be done. Seen this with things like a prostate brachy boost after EBRT, MRI for cervical T&O planning, SBRT to oligomets, treating peds, etc etc

Some say only the medoncs should do workups and yet workups are an integral part of our board exams and you would fail if you didn’t know how to do them.

I could go on for many more paragraphs.
 
The one thing this thread has made clear is how diverse practice patterns can be. Unfortunately, there's no conversation about this at the national level. A certain small subset of RadOncs dominate the publishing sphere, which drives discourse. That sphere is also where we all were residents.

Agree with you that practice patterns vary and different things could make sense in different settings.

Jeff M from WashU posted about how they were involved in lots of non-rad onc (traditionally at least) in terms of prostate cancer at WashU, and he got replies about how that only works in the ivory tower. so it goes both ways.





thought Jeff's reply was quite rational to an bit irrational reply to his tweet.
 
Agree with you that practice patterns vary and different things could make sense in different settings.

Jeff M from WashU posted about how they were involved in lots of non-rad onc (traditionally at least) in terms of prostate cancer at WashU, and he got replies about how that only works in the ivory tower. so it goes both ways.





thought Jeff's reply was quite rational to an bit irrational reply to his tweet.

I am curious how many departments in the country are like Wash u, offering all those services in department (university or not)
 
I am curious how many departments in the country are like Wash u, offering all those services in department (university or not)
Politically a minefield if you try to do that in some practice setups out IRL.

That being said, i left training not knowing how to place fiducials or prescribe casodex/lupron but learned both quickly
 
Politically a minefield if you try to do that in some practice setups out IRL.

That being said, i left training not knowing how to place fiducials or prescribe casodex/lupron but learned both quickly

THere was a WAR in our area in med onc vs. urology over who was going to Rx the second generation androgen deprivation drugs.

I can't even image what would happen if I tried to give IO. I'd be black balled from med onc.

I do ADT if urology doesn't want to do it, but I wouldn't dare try to start doing things where they want to do it and/or have + revenue from it. Recipe for disaster out in the community.
 
THere was a WAR in our area in med onc vs. urology over who was going to Rx the second generation androgen deprivation drugs.

I can't even image what would happen if I tried to give IO. I'd be black balled from med onc.

I do ADT if urology doesn't want to do it, but I wouldn't dare try to start doing things where they want to do it and/or have + revenue from it. Recipe for disaster out in the community.
Same war, different battlefield in our area. The local urology group has gone as far as advertising their services for "advanced prostate cancer" (meaning metastatic) treatment. They have two radoncs in their group but no medoncs. One does have to admire the stones on them if nothing else.
 
Same war, different battlefield in our area. The local urology group has gone as far as advertising their services for "advanced prostate cancer" (meaning metastatic) treatment. They have two radoncs in their group but no medoncs. One does have to admire the stones on them if nothing else.

Similar - one group in town has an "advanced prostate cancer clinic." Med onc only touches the patient if a taxane is wanted. The pull in rad onc for radiopharm but urology is running the show no doubt. Another urology group though is very hands off - they send everything to med onc...so go figure.
 
Same war, different battlefield in our area. The local urology group has gone as far as advertising their services for "advanced prostate cancer" (meaning metastatic) treatment. They have two radoncs in their group but no medoncs. One does have to admire the stones on them if nothing else.

From what I've seen from the various urologist that refer to me, in no way would I be confident in their ability to properly manage these patient.
 
From what I've seen from the various urologist that refer to me, in no way would I be confident in their ability to properly manage these patient.

Fortunately, they have actually been pretty good if I'm being honest in my experience. I've been really pleasantly surprised.
 
1701796209916.png

I just noticed this graphic while doing other things. What does targeting cancer care mean? I've just been targeting cancer.
 
From what I've seen from the various urologist that refer to me, in no way would I be confident in their ability to properly manage these patient.
Every urologist I've seen doing Abi/Enza has been doing it wrong and frequently blow through both agents with 'progression' within 2 years. Which is not how it should be.
 
Agree with you that practice patterns vary and different things could make sense in different settings.
It's going to be predicated on community need.

I suspect that those of us most acutely aware of lack of medical oncology resources far from big metros are also those most removed from academic leadership.

We should always use the APP phenomenon for context. APPs are not physicians and typically come into an oncology career with no heme or onc background. They have mobile careers and may come to an oncology practice having done years of mostly unrelated surgical work, urgent care or floor medicine.

Typically, they are "onboarded" into oncology with some period of supervisory on the job training. Maybe 6 months?

Their clinical duties are highly variable once onboarded and in scenarios of dire medical oncology supply, can function fairly independently even in terms of prescribing chemotherapy.

Right now, in my clinic, I am busy enough. However, there is no doubt that I have felt the creep of marginalization over the past ten years. The medonc side of things is staffed more and more with APPs, with less patient continuity and with far inferior patient satisfaction than on the radonc side.

Frankly, I feel that medonc provides fairly low value f/u for most of our shared patients (do they really review imaging on their own like us or perform exams like us). However, the culture is for medonc to own the patient, and they are more often than not involved in long term, relatively low toxicity systemic therapy well beyond receipt of XRT.

Unless I'm scoping the patient or just can't bear to let them interpret the f/u imaging (SBRT lung and CNS cases), I end up letting a lot of these patients go.

At some point, taking ownership over metastatic or very high risk pCA patients, breast endocrine therapy and simple radio-sensitizing chemo will make sense for me and certainly for our clinic globally.

It will probably never make sense outside of training purposes in a big academic center. However, academic places should consider that they may be training community oncologists on occasion.
 
It's going to be predicated on community need.

I suspect that those of us most acutely aware of lack of medical oncology resources far from big metros are also those most removed from academic leadership.

We should always use the APP phenomenon for context. APPs are not physicians and typically come into an oncology career with no heme or onc background. They have mobile careers and may come to an oncology practice having done years of mostly unrelated surgical work, urgent care or floor medicine.

Typically, they are "onboarded" into oncology with some period of supervisory on the job training. Maybe 6 months?

Their clinical duties are highly variable once onboarded and in scenarios of dire medical oncology supply, can function fairly independently even in terms of prescribing chemotherapy.

Right now, in my clinic, I am busy enough. However, there is no doubt that I have felt the creep of marginalization over the past ten years. The medonc side of things is staffed more and more with APPs, with less patient continuity and with far inferior patient satisfaction than on the radonc side.

Frankly, I feel that medonc provides fairly low value f/u for most of our shared patients (do they really review imaging on their own like us or perform exams like us). However, the culture is for medonc to own the patient, and they are more often than not involved in long term, relatively low toxicity systemic therapy well beyond receipt of XRT.

Unless I'm scoping the patient or just can't bear to let them interpret the f/u imaging (SBRT lung and CNS cases), I end up letting a lot of these patients go.

At some point, taking ownership over metastatic or very high risk pCA patients, breast endocrine therapy and simple radio-sensitizing chemo will make sense for me and certainly for our clinic globally.

It will probably never make sense outside of training purposes in a big academic center. However, academic places should consider that they may be training community oncologists on occasion.
Haha.

Yeah.

This accurately describes my practice, too.
 
Same war, different battlefield in our area. The local urology group has gone as far as advertising their services for "advanced prostate cancer" (meaning metastatic) treatment. They have two radoncs in their group but no medoncs. One does have to admire the stones on them if nothing else.
Same, although to be fair I think their main advanced guy does a good job.
 
Increase fractionation to decrease the chance of side effects, huh who would've thunk. (!)

Also..."avoid radiation"? In what scenario in which a breast cancer patient has brain mets does the data support avoiding radiation? Even the osimertinib data in metastatic NSCLC supports treating with SRS up front. (!)
 
Reference please
Most of the data is Chinese or from Taiwan that I've been able to find.


Might depend on the mutation however - Therapeutic effect of osimertinib plus cranial radiotherapy compared to osimertinib alone in NSCLC patients with EGFR-activating mutations and brain metastases: a retrospective study - PubMed


Somewhat more complex study, but does show a survival benefit to SRS: The optimal therapy strategy for epidermal growth factor receptor-mutated non-small cell lung cancer patients with brain metastasis: A real-world study from Taiwan - PubMed

Overall, I think it's more reasonable to offer osimertinib with T790M mutations, but I would still like to see good data showing that it's ok to move away from the standard of care- up front radiosurgery. Some of the data does suggest a benefit to maintaining this standard of care, so I don't want to change unless there's good data showing it's ok to do so.

Osi is, without a doubt, a big win in this setting, however, there's no doubt about that, and it has changed practice patterns somewhat with our neuro-oncologists. I have, with the data I've shared, been able to argue somewhat over the value of up-front radiosurgery, so it's at least something we discuss from time to time.
 
Most of the data is Chinese or from Taiwan that I've been able to find.


Might depend on the mutation however - Therapeutic effect of osimertinib plus cranial radiotherapy compared to osimertinib alone in NSCLC patients with EGFR-activating mutations and brain metastases: a retrospective study - PubMed


Somewhat more complex study, but does show a survival benefit to SRS: The optimal therapy strategy for epidermal growth factor receptor-mutated non-small cell lung cancer patients with brain metastasis: A real-world study from Taiwan - PubMed

Overall, I think it's more reasonable to offer osimertinib with T790M mutations, but I would still like to see good data showing that it's ok to move away from the standard of care- up front radiosurgery. Some of the data does suggest a benefit to maintaining this standard of care, so I don't want to change unless there's good data showing it's ok to do so.

Osi is, without a doubt, a big win in this setting, however, there's no doubt about that, and it has changed practice patterns somewhat with our neuro-oncologists. I have, with the data I've shared, been able to argue somewhat over the value of up-front radiosurgery, so it's at least something we discuss from time to time.
Typical pt has 20 tiny Mets?
 
Typical pt has 20 tiny Mets?
I wouldn't be able to say what the typical presentation is, numbers-wise, for EGFR-mutated NSCLC. I can say that at least in my anecdotal experience they do tend to get smaller but more numerable mets. Take that with all the salt.
 
0 Gy when possible


What remarkable insights! These can be adapated for any number of situations:

MINIMIZE RISK OF PREMATURE DEATH
-----------------------------------------------

* Don't die (!)
* When living your life:
  1. Eat a healthy diet
  2. Exercise regularly
  3. Avoid drugs and alcohol
  4. Location: You will be more resilient if you avoid war zones
  5. Live your life one day at at time
  6. Don't get depressed - be happy!
 
What remarkable insights! These can be adapated for any number of situations:

MINIMIZE RISK OF PREMATURE DEATH
-----------------------------------------------

* Don't die (!)
* When living your life:
  1. Eat a healthy diet
  2. Exercise regularly
  3. Avoid drugs and alcohol
  4. Location: You will be more resilient if you avoid war zones
  5. Live your life one day at at time
  6. Don't get depressed - be happy!

All the MD PhDs we could want last 10 years. Amounts to a self help post. HR probably needs to have a talk with some of these docs.
 
Most of the data is Chinese or from Taiwan that I've been able to find.


Might depend on the mutation however - Therapeutic effect of osimertinib plus cranial radiotherapy compared to osimertinib alone in NSCLC patients with EGFR-activating mutations and brain metastases: a retrospective study - PubMed


Somewhat more complex study, but does show a survival benefit to SRS: The optimal therapy strategy for epidermal growth factor receptor-mutated non-small cell lung cancer patients with brain metastasis: A real-world study from Taiwan - PubMed

Overall, I think it's more reasonable to offer osimertinib with T790M mutations, but I would still like to see good data showing that it's ok to move away from the standard of care- up front radiosurgery. Some of the data does suggest a benefit to maintaining this standard of care, so I don't want to change unless there's good data showing it's ok to do so.

Osi is, without a doubt, a big win in this setting, however, there's no doubt about that, and it has changed practice patterns somewhat with our neuro-oncologists. I have, with the data I've shared, been able to argue somewhat over the value of up-front radiosurgery, so it's at least something we discuss from time to time.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. The data is probably confounded, and I also wonder about quality of surveillance and access to care at those centers compared to what I do here.

If a patient of mine comes with an option for osi, I usually just let the osi work unless there's something that really needs treatment or it's a low risk SRS case with a motivated patient who wants to do everything.

At least partial response rate to osi in my experience in eligible patients has been 100%. I'm open to there being some differential among the different mutations that I'm not considering--of course most are T790M or exon 19 deletion. The FLAURA data supports this (including stable disease, response was 100% at 6 weeks IIRC). You just end up treating them later when the osi fails (intracranial PFS was something like 9 months), and I follow them along with med onc for this eventuality.

All the MD PhDs we could want last 10 years. Amounts to a self help post. HR probably needs to have a talk with some of these docs.

I'm not sure what you mean. That slide is perfect academics. People who are lifers in academics have to get good at politics. They breed, select, and promote this. Part of being a good politician is saying a lot without saying anything, and then taking credit for having said something. That's exactly how I view that slide.

Of course, I take the opposite view. How many patients does RT necrosis kill? Almost none. How many patients do brain cancers kill?

1701972279744.png
 
Part of being a good politician is saying a lot without saying anything, and then taking credit for having said something.

I laughed out loud when I read this, it is so spot on.

Sometimes I feel like I should be more of an adult and just tolerate this behavior, but I just couldnt. I have great respect for people that stick it out knowing how it really goes in academics.
 
I have great respect for people that stick it out knowing how it really goes in academics.

Change can only happen from the inside.

That or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Probably a combination of the two.
 
Totally agree with Neuronix on the EGFR data. Key is watching them, I’ve watched some for a long time before having to treat. Have been more than impressed multiple times with the radio graphic responses.
 
This is so regional. No one really does this where I am.
Would be interesting to send back the brain met consult for osi.
 
EGFR NSCLC, I’ve seen great responses on initial MR to osi, 3 months later massive progression. Even in the setting of continued systemic response. Watch those folks close if you don’t treat upfront.
 
I would only consider doing osi alone if the alternative was WBRT. A EGFR pt that is a candidate for SRS (slam dunk at 3 or less) should 100% get SRS. The last time we evaluated this, SRS followed by TKI won by a landslide: Management of Brain Metastases in Tyrosine Kinase Inhibitor-Naïve Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor-Mutant Non-Small-Cell Lung Cancer: A Retrospective Multi-Institutional Analysis - PubMed
I’ve done it for subcentimeter ones and once they reach a cm I’ll zap the biggest lesion(s), but been more conservative lately as these can be followed closely. If unable to get a MRI in 3 months, I would offer RT. I do have one patient I’ve been following who would most likely need whole brain RT if he was to get radiation but he’s currently going on 9 months now with observation.
 
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I would only consider doing osi alone if the alternative was WBRT. A EGFR pt that is a candidate for SRS (slam dunk at 3 or less) should 100% get SRS. The last time we evaluated this, SRS followed by TKI won by a landslide: Management of Brain Metastases in Tyrosine Kinase Inhibitor-Naïve Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor-Mutant Non-Small-Cell Lung Cancer: A Retrospective Multi-Institutional Analysis - PubMed
that data is....... not strong. in my view. you really think youre compromising their OS by not treating small mets that are going to go away on a drug?

I would wonder what your concern would be in NOT SRS-ing a couple 4 mm brain mets, if they were starting Osi. I bet you a hundred internet points that you see them back with a one month MRI they would be gone or shrinking.


I have no problem with someone with lack of comfort level with watching mets just sticking to SRS to all, but I don't think you should bring up the OS data, which is rife with bias and largely pre-osi
 
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