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Also..."avoid radiation"? In what scenario in which a breast cancer patient has brain mets does the data support avoiding radiation? Even the osimertinib data in metastatic NSCLC supports treating with SRS up front. (!)
Mainly widespread brain disease [dozen(s) of lesions or LM-spread] in Her2-positive breast cancer. The data for Tucatinib and Trastuzumab deruxtecan are good.

Would I defer WBRT in these patients? Yes.

But I agree with you, FSRT and SRS are good options for many patients.
 
The future




I've been wondering if face to face time with a physician will becoming a competitive factor in the US oncology market. Patients still value the opinion of a physician over other healthcare providers.

Obviously there is selection bias, but I have a growing number of patients that are unhappy with the very impersonal care offered by the large university network in town. My own family has pointed this out to me on their own (non-oncology visits).

How many times do you have someone thank you profusely for sitting for an hour and explaining their disease? Chat bots will be able to do this accurately, but we are very far away from a chat bot being human "enough".

Everyone is discussing this future, Im not sure patients will want it. They may not have a choice, but just some thoughts.
 
I've been wondering if face to face time with a physician will becoming a competitive factor in the US oncology market. Patients still value the opinion of a physician over other healthcare providers.

Obviously there is selection bias, but I have a growing number of patients that are unhappy with the very impersonal care offered by the large university network in town. My own family has pointed this out to me on their own (non-oncology visits).

How many times do you have someone thank you profusely for sitting for an hour and explaining their disease? Chat bots will be able to do this accurately, but we are very far away from a chat bot being human "enough".

Everyone is discussing this future, Im not sure patients will want it. They may not have a choice, but just some thoughts.
Patients have instagram, twitter and their extensive network of “family in the health care field” to offer unsolicited advice from. What I offer them pales in comparison to anything they rather decide to believe in these days.

I welcome anything to put an end to the current health care model even if it means welcoming Skynet and the end of all humanity!
 
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I've been wondering if face to face time with a physician will becoming a competitive factor in the US oncology market. Patients still value the opinion of a physician over other healthcare providers.

Obviously there is selection bias, but I have a growing number of patients that are unhappy with the very impersonal care offered by the large university network in town. My own family has pointed this out to me on their own (non-oncology visits).

How many times do you have someone thank you profusely for sitting for an hour and explaining their disease? Chat bots will be able to do this accurately, but we are very far away from a chat bot being human "enough".

Everyone is discussing this future, Im not sure patients will want it. They may not have a choice, but just some thoughts.
Mike Judge Applause GIF by Idiocracy
 
I've been wondering if face to face time with a physician will becoming a competitive factor in the US oncology market. Patients still value the opinion of a physician over other healthcare providers.

Obviously there is selection bias, but I have a growing number of patients that are unhappy with the very impersonal care offered by the large university network in town. My own family has pointed this out to me on their own (non-oncology visits).

How many times do you have someone thank you profusely for sitting for an hour and explaining their disease? Chat bots will be able to do this accurately, but we are very far away from a chat bot being human "enough".

Everyone is discussing this future, Im not sure patients will want it. They may not have a choice, but just some thoughts.
This is the future.

Putting aside all the other conversations about our job market, and the disclaimer that ANY prediction, by me or ANYONE, for more than 1-2 years into the future is essentially worthless given the pace of change:

I fully expect that, 10 years from now, I will be making minimal medical decisions. Much of the diagnosis and treatment will be handled automatically.

For us, that means software (AI) will, at minimum, extract relevant data from the patient's chart, determine if workup is guideline concordant, tells us what's missing, suggest the orders we need to place to complete the workup (there's case precedent right now that if the orders are placed by the computer itself it's not "medically necessary", but perhaps that changes), once workup is complete we will be recommended the best guideline concordant treatment.

Then, at sim, the software (AI) will delineate targets and OARs (approved by the human), then do the treatment planning (approved by the human), QA the plan, etc. The rate limiting step will be how quick the humans click "OK", but this will be done within 2 hours.

On treatment, online imaging will optimize inter- and intrafraction motion (combination of various wavelength sensors, not just x-ray or visible spectrum). Various side effect management recommendations will be made based on ambient microphones detecting human speech and, cross referencing the patient's chart (and medical history), sensor data from the linac, and conversations between patient and staff.

Follow-up strategy will be recommended at the end of treatment.

I would say two things:

1) No young person should go to Dosimetry school. That career is the equivalent of a lamplighter right as the first residential light bulbs were installed.

2) In the near (10-20 years) future, robotics seem unlikely to get to the point to demonstrate open world labor capabilities. Meaning, if an MLC motor dies and needs to be replaced, human hands will do it.

The one thing I don't see changing is an elderly, scared person just diagnosed with cancer needing a real, breathing human to interact with and guide them through the process. With NCCN guidelines, how many "decisions" are we really making now, anyway?

I'm OK with a future where I exist as a Human Experience Navigator. I can translate what the mysterious AI wants us to do. I can hold a hand.

Maybe I'm wrong. But this is the worst our technology is going to be. And we didn't have this stuff even 5 years ago.

Just...don't go to Dosimetry school.
 
I'm OK with a future where I exist as a Human Experience Navigator. I can translate what the mysterious AI wants us to do. I can hold a hand.

Me too. I think these are all great points and just to be clear I am not predicting any future, just having fun.

Personally, I am hyped for DEI hypohumanization studies out of MSKCC talking about critical lack of access to bots in rural Louisiana. It's a (future) crisis!
 
that data is....... not strong. in my view. you really think youre compromising their OS by not treating small mets that are going to go away on a drug?

I would wonder what your concern would be in NOT SRS-ing a couple 4 mm brain mets, if they were starting Osi. I bet you a hundred internet points that you see them back with a one month MRI they would be gone or shrinking.


I have no problem with someone with lack of comfort level with watching mets just sticking to SRS to all, but I don't think you should bring up the OS data, which is rife with bias and largely pre-osi

I justify that the OS benefit is because they were taking patients who were candidates for SRS, having them progress in the brain, and then those patients ended up needing WBRT to salvage them. Sure, Osi is more active in the brain in terms of ORR, but it's not an ORR of 95-100% the way SRS is.

Based on baseline characteristics, upfront EGFR-TKI patients had more favorable ones, such as less likely to have symptomatic brain mets, mets < 1cm. So when upfront SRS pts are starting from a weaker position in terms of baseline characteristics and STILL shows an OS benefit (granted, w/ erlotinib, not osimeritinib), I don't think one can simply say "retrospective bias" to justify ignoring the data.

If there is an update to this concept evaluating Osi, would love to read it.
 
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This is the future.

Putting aside all the other conversations about our job market, and the disclaimer that ANY prediction, by me or ANYONE, for more than 1-2 years into the future is essentially worthless given the pace of change:

I fully expect that, 10 years from now, I will be making minimal medical decisions. Much of the diagnosis and treatment will be handled automatically.

For us, that means software (AI) will, at minimum, extract relevant data from the patient's chart, determine if workup is guideline concordant, tells us what's missing, suggest the orders we need to place to complete the workup (there's case precedent right now that if the orders are placed by the computer itself it's not "medically necessary", but perhaps that changes), once workup is complete we will be recommended the best guideline concordant treatment.

Then, at sim, the software (AI) will delineate targets and OARs (approved by the human), then do the treatment planning (approved by the human), QA the plan, etc. The rate limiting step will be how quick the humans click "OK", but this will be done within 2 hours.

On treatment, online imaging will optimize inter- and intrafraction motion (combination of various wavelength sensors, not just x-ray or visible spectrum). Various side effect management recommendations will be made based on ambient microphones detecting human speech and, cross referencing the patient's chart (and medical history), sensor data from the linac, and conversations between patient and staff.

Follow-up strategy will be recommended at the end of treatment.

I would say two things:

1) No young person should go to Dosimetry school. That career is the equivalent of a lamplighter right as the first residential light bulbs were installed.

2) In the near (10-20 years) future, robotics seem unlikely to get to the point to demonstrate open world labor capabilities. Meaning, if an MLC motor dies and needs to be replaced, human hands will do it.

The one thing I don't see changing is an elderly, scared person just diagnosed with cancer needing a real, breathing human to interact with and guide them through the process. With NCCN guidelines, how many "decisions" are we really making now, anyway?

I'm OK with a future where I exist as a Human Experience Navigator. I can translate what the mysterious AI wants us to do. I can hold a hand.

Maybe I'm wrong. But this is the worst our technology is going to be. And we didn't have this stuff even 5 years ago.

Just...don't go to Dosimetry school.
I'll take that bet. I don't think we'll be there in 10 years.
 
I'll take that bet. I don't think we'll be there in 10 years.
Yeah we will. Someone has to take liability. There will always be physician sign off of the ultimate radiotherapy plan.

No way in hell Microsoft or Nvidia taking that kind of liability
 
Yeah we will. Someone has to take liability. There will always be physician sign off of the ultimate radiotherapy plan.

No way in hell Microsoft or Nvidia taking that kind of liability
Agreed -

@bubbachuck, to clarify, are you betting against my entire scenario? Or only certain parts?

Who else wants in on playing RadOnc Futurist™?

THEORY TIME FOLKS.
 
I am betting in 10-15 years from now there will be a noninferiority trial showing midlevels and AI can develop just as good of plans as radiation oncologists, the only if is if it will be that long.

Also, 10-15 years from now, someone sitting in an office accepting plans from 100 miles away without stepping in the hospital. Bet it all on red. Not that I want it, but I don't think it can be stopped.
Yep, been working on my plan B option over the past 3 yrs now… I will likely be working in a field outside of medicine in 5 yrs.
 
Real estate?
I do have investments in real estate and other investments. Also looking into venture capital opportunities but honestly I would be ok owning a small mom and pop business at this stage in life. I’ve lost my passion and desire to continue in healthcare.
 
I do have investments in real estate and other investments. Also looking into venture capital opportunities but honestly I would be ok owning a small mom and pop business at this stage in life. I’ve lost my passion and desire to continue in healthcare.
Sad commentary on healthcare because in the past, that mom and pop business would have been a successful local medical practice and that is no longer an option in radiation oncology.
 
Sad commentary on healthcare because in the past, that mom and pop business would have been a successful local medical practice and that is no longer an option in radiation oncology.
Local is not the model anywhere. Local is not as easy to standardize (although I believe that good regulators could figure this out), does not benefit from economies of scale, cannot invest in high dollar research.

But, local should be the model. It is the most human, the coolest, the most intimate. Imagine French cheese without a local model...it would suck.

There should be large research institutions, where we get trained and do research and innovate...and most care should be provided locally.

This goes for everything, not just medicine.

Without an emphasis on keeping things local (production, expertise, education), we are all hosed.
 
Local has the advantage of the owner being a worker as well. Much more invested in the success of the business.
 
I fully expect that, 10 years from now, I will be making minimal medical decisions. Much of the diagnosis and treatment will be handled automatically.

For us, that means software (AI) will, at minimum, extract relevant data from the patient's chart, determine if workup is guideline concordant, tells us what's missing, suggest the orders we need to place to complete the workup (there's case precedent right now that if the orders are placed by the computer itself it's not "medically necessary", but perhaps that changes), once workup is complete we will be recommended the best guideline concordant treatment.
You are totally correct, except on the timeline.

This isn't 10 years into the future, this was 2018. For decades now, all the high-priced medical decisions have been made by the insurance company and their surrogates, whether silicon- or carbon-based.

Since at least 2018, Evicore's prior authorizations have first been scanned and screened by an algorithm, reviewed by a nurse if questionable, and sent to an MD only if care is denied or a peer to peer is requested. "Medically necessary" is just an algorithm run by computer and open to human inspection only when we request a closer look, and we definitely need to be requesting that closer look now more than ever.

This is de facto how AI is already controlling what medical procedures we can and cannot perform, and is more powerful than any guideline in many respects. Guidelines are not a hard stop, but lack of payment is. Guidelines are at least consensus based and are explainable, but few AI models are explainable in human terms.

When my request isn't already part of the NCCN guidelines, and sometimes, even when it is, I can expect an up-front denial. Even when my request has support from a randomized phase III trial, like hippo-sparing whole brain, I've had reviewers tell me "the NCCN guidelines say to consider IMRT, they don't say that you must use IMRT, just consider using IMRT." Really, that was the entire basis of a denial, the meaning of the word Consider.

AI could do that job for sure: "Hey, Chat GPT, write me a 10 minute essay on how the word Consider can be used to deny radiation treatment, even though it's already supported by a randomized trial and the current NCCN guideline." I bet Chat-GPT would have been much more convincing and delivered the denial in a more empathetic tone.

My apologies to those on this board who do PA work, I hope this not representative of the work you do, but years later I'm still shaking my head at what has gone down on many of these calls. I welcome our AI overlords.
 
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From my vantage point, I don’t see the 99% that gets waved through. 1% or so gets denied. Most of it is egregious. What you all complain about - we just don’t do that where I work.

I know Ions is a proton guy, and I’m sure it can be frustrating.

I got berated by a protonist on Friday for something that is 99% treated with photons and have always been and no one would say “refer for protons”. Only someone who has protons would get this upset. If you argued as hard as he did, you’d fail your oral exam. Then he sent a nasty gram email. I will suggest you don’t do this. I do take it seriously - I contacted 3 other proton docs to get their opinion. None of them said it was “medically necessary”

I think Evicore is synonymous with prior auth. And with them being the industry leader, it’s fair to synonymize. But, we all aren’t the same. I gave extra fractions twice in last two weeks.

Re: asking for my name and license number to put into your note if I do not kowtow to every single whim. That’s fine, but it seems like extra work. The generated letter has my name on it. None of this is hidden. My dude asked me like 3 times and then didn’t have a pen. So, he wanted me to email my name. It was the equivalent of leaving a room angrily and then having to come back in because you forgot something. Frankly, I was just more upset he hadn’t heard of me or listened to the show.
 

The whole thing is interesting. Just started accruing to Phase 3 in a Phase 1/3 trial for GEP neuroendocrine (17 patients in the Phase 1 portion of trial). Sells for 4.1 billion without any efficacy data that I can tell.

Their hook is alpha emitting actinium. We will see. Alpha can both be a feature and a bug.

I was surprised at the sheer number of folks with GEP neuroendocrine tumors. Also fairly indolent and likely a pretty decent target group for treatment (progression on Lutetium). Many folks progress and don't die immediately. There could be years and years worth of patient's if approved with a very large immediate market that dwindles over time.

The gamble from BMS seems reasonable to me, even if they do not anticipate wide adoption of alpha emitting radionuclides for other indications.

Whoever put up the initial venture capital did damn well.
 
For a guy who claims to be an expert on clinical trials, he seems to be confused on how phase 1/2 trials work
Vinay is easily one of the most intriguing characters we have active in the medicine sphere today.

I'm careful in how I phrase that, because it's entirely unclear to me if he sees patients anymore.

While he often is...uh, let's go with...flamboyantly contrarian...I think he's good to have around because he doesn't have a clear, classic "team". Everyone is playing for a "team", i.e. Democrat/Republican, Coasts/Midwest, Ivory Tower/Community, etc - which is obviously a problem.

Vinay is "Team Himself", and while you know he's going to hate literally anything he sees, he can uncover nuggets of interest while he sprays napalm.

I would love to hear his internal monologue for like a week.
 
Vinay is easily one of the most intriguing characters we have active in the medicine sphere today.

I'm careful in how I phrase that, because it's entirely unclear to me if he sees patients anymore.

While he often is...uh, let's go with...flamboyantly contrarian...I think he's good to have around because he doesn't have a clear, classic "team". Everyone is playing for a "team", i.e. Democrat/Republican, Coasts/Midwest, Ivory Tower/Community, etc - which is obviously a problem.

Vinay is "Team Himself", and while you know he's going to hate literally anything he sees, he can uncover nuggets of interest while he sprays napalm.

I would love to hear his internal monologue for like a week.
I agree with about 80% of what he says.
 
For a guy who claims to be an expert on clinical trials, he seems to be confused on how phase 1/2 trials work
The pile-on of non-rad onc MDs or even non-MDs thinking they’re smart for agreeing with him is particularly abrasive. All early trials are single arm and you pick a toxicity rate threshold that is historically based and passes IRB review. If it seems safe then you move on to randomized
 
The pile-on of non-rad onc MDs or even non-MDs thinking they’re smart for agreeing with him is particularly abrasive.
Ah, yes, I totally forgot about that (I carefully curate my Twitter/X feed to make sure I don't see it as much as possible, can't be out here feeding the trolls).

Vinay is definitely a honeypot for people who don't have the drive, motivation, or capacity to pursue careers in science/medicine where they could actually contribute to society. Instead, they let people like him do the heavy lifting of critically assessing something (fair or otherwise), then mimic what he says so they sound smart.

It's really the cheapest hack if you want external validation of being perceived as intelligent.

In my version of Utopia, there's an economy of opinions with physical currency. You can only earn "Opinion Bucks" by creating (to include not just "praise" but also rhetorical "steelman" arguments), and if you want to complain, even just repeating someone else's complaint, you gotta pay!

And no credit cards for Opinion Bucks!

(10 years into my Utopia, you will see the rise of people yelling about "fiat currency" and how the New World Order can only be stopped by the "opinion blockchain"...)
 
His argument that the dose to the brain is perfectly safe and does need to be tested in a Phase I/II trial, does make sense.

On the other hand, randomising patients to WBRT or not without any prior research in humans, would probably be seen as unethical by many.
 
His argument that the dose to the brain is perfectly safe and does need to be tested in a Phase I/II trial, does make sense.

On the other hand, randomising patients to WBRT or not without any prior research in humans, would probably be seen as unethical by many.

Randomizing patients without cancer to WBRT does not need pilot data. A med onc is saying this.

I like Vinay, but this is one of his more ridiculous takes. I read the paper and did learn something, not nothing.

My guess is he didn’t bother to understand the context here and has never had to convince a med onc sitting on a protocol review board that radiation is safe.
 
Randomizing patients without cancer to WBRT does not need pilot data. A med onc is saying this.

I like Vinay, but this is one of his more ridiculous takes. I read the paper and did learn something, not nothing.

My guess is he didn’t bother to understand the context here and has never had to convince a med onc sitting on a protocol review board that radiation is safe.
Does anyone think than 10 Gy to the brain will cause severe damage?
Irrelevant of cancer or not.

We have data from thousands of patients who underwent TBI with ~12 Gy and no trial showed severe neurocognitive issues in the adult survivors.

I think that‘s his point.

The second issue is that it‘s a 5 patient trial. So even if LDRT to the brain could cause damage, the chance is there that this would be missed.
 
Does anyone think than 10 Gy to the brain will cause severe damage?
Irrelevant of cancer or not.

We have data from thousands of patients who underwent TBI with ~12 Gy and no trial showed severe neurocognitive issues in the adult survivors.

I think that‘s his point.

The second issue is that it‘s a 5 patient trial. So even if LDRT to the brain could cause damage, the chance is there that this would be missed.
Trying to tease out the negative neurocognitive effects from brain LDRT in someone with Alzheimer’s would remind me of that scene in ‘Young Frankenstein’ where Gene Wilder yells “Damn your eyes!” at Marty Feldman, and the camera close-ups on Feldman and he goes “Too late!”

(He had really big, weird looking eyes… in case you’ve never seen the movie or don’t know Feldman.)
 
Does anyone think than 10 Gy to the brain will cause severe damage?
Irrelevant of cancer or not.

We have data from thousands of patients who underwent TBI with ~12 Gy and no trial showed severe neurocognitive issues in the adult survivors.

I think that‘s his point.

The second issue is that it‘s a 5 patient trial. So even if LDRT to the brain could cause damage, the chance is there that this would be missed.
I would say that the funders of Alzheimer’s research aren’t aware of that, and a pilot study like this is necessary to take the next step.
 
I would say that the funders of Alzheimer’s research aren’t aware of that, and a pilot study like this is necessary to take the next step.
True. But what statement can you make with a 5-patients-trial? If it was like 20-30 patients, sure. But 5?
 
In America, you need to prove its nots safe. Had to be done.

They couldn’t enroll… Covid killed this study early. Lots of issues. Yes, it’s not revealing, but to criticize lack of control means he’s just not thinking critically
 
He wanted.... a randomized ph I?
He wanted a phase 3 without anything else. Obviously science we can just jump like that.

Btw, his point is dumb. No IRB will allow therapeutic RT doses to hundreds of patients. I couldn't do a PET project with 2 additional pets because it was over safety limits.
 
I think you all are putting way more thought into this than he does, if he even writes all of his own tweets.
Nah. He’s so thin skinned. I had liked a parody account and he literally privately DMd me asking me to stop. He’s very aware of what he says and who responds and that’s why he has blocked anyone that dares to debate him. Intellectual baby.
 
Nah. He’s so thin skinned. I had liked a parody account and he literally privately DMd me asking me to stop. He’s very aware of what he says and who responds and that’s why he has blocked anyone that dares to debate him. Intellectual baby.
I bet he has the highest blocked:follower ratio on X
 
Elekta really pushing the envelope here.

They certainly push the envelope on documentation efficiency - don't even want to think about how much extra time is wasted fighting with Mosaiq during my week. The switch from Varian has been difficult to say the least.
 
They certainly push the envelope on documentation efficiency - don't even want to think about how much extra time is wasted fighting with Mosaiq during my week. The switch from Varian has been difficult to say the least.
I work at an Elekta shop so I feel your pain. Mosaiq is a PITA and Monaco is hot garbage as a TPS. No amount of lipstick will make these pigs look good.
 
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