Rad Onc Twitter

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so the market is for sure scary for current and future residents

BUT I gotta ask.

did you have some weird super specific location requirement? why are you making so low?

maybe one of my PP brothas can throw you a bone. we just hired a new start this past july.

Yes. I am at an academic institution, fairly well known, in a desirable city. Our salaries are even on the lower side for academics, compared to the Terry Wall data.

When I started looking at applying to residency, I was told to choose one of the following: lifestyle, salary, geography. I chose geography. For that, I do not regret.

I produce 9-10,000 wRVUs/year in the past two years since finishing residency, written a few papers in journals with impact factors no more than 4 without any research support, and constantly get crapped on for not meeting the goals and metrics of the department.

I do not want to leave because of the geography, and I can't find anything in town because: 1. there is never a job opening with the surrounding private groups because no one ever leaves because of the geographic desirability and 2. my restrictive covenant.

I also have little negotiating power because I really don't want to leave this town. The only way to get more out of this current job is to negotiate with a better job offer in a galaxy far, far away, but that is risky, bluffing with a 7/2 off suit.

So yeah, my pay and lifestyle sucks, but I like my city.
 
So yeah, my pay and lifestyle sucks, but I like my city.

sorry to hear your job could be better, but I think liking where you live (and I guess that means who lives there) is really the most important thing in terms of your entire life. so that's great.
 
sorry to hear your job could be better, but I think liking where you live (and I guess that means who lives there) is really the most important thing in terms of your entire life. so that's great.

Hey, thanks, I appreciate it. I wish life was a little bit more relaxing and made a little bit more money, likely my other colleagues, but like you said, I'm personally pretty happy because of where I live.

I love my patients, and I love taking care of them, as I'm sure all of us do. I love radiation oncology, and I really want to get its glory back.

I have even tried to offer a more enlightened approach to our residency, taking senior residents under my wing as they look for jobs. I also am trying to open prospective trials expanding the indications for RT, not omitting or reducing indications like our leadership has done.

I also tried to fight against my own leadership against residency expansion (yes, they still want to do it), but I was aggressively shut down and threatened. I really love our field, but in the end, I can only look out for myself. I'm saving/investing aggressively and hope to jump off this sinking ship as quickly as possible.
 
so the market is for sure scary for current and future residents

BUT I gotta ask.

did you have some weird super specific location requirement? why are you making so low?

maybe one of my PP brothas can throw you a bone. we just hired a new start this past july.

In my 6th year, total comp is less than 10th percentile MGMA. Long story how I got here. Rad onc job market sucks.
 
6th year! WOW. I was <25thile and you know what? I resigned and got a new job.
There are absolutely jobs out there that pay MGMA median, it's all about what kind of geography you are willing to tolerate to get them, at least for now. Geography continues to be the biggest problem in our job market, it's always been that way, only on now on steroids with overexpansion
 
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I've heard all kinds of crazy low (think 5 digit) and crazy high (think 80-90th percentile) numbers on first-year offers thrown out by applicants this year. I assume the crazy high ones are attempted negotiating ploys, but who knows? It's definitely a market in tremendous flux, which would have me worried.
 
There are absolutely jobs out there that pay MGMA median, it's all about what kind of geography you are willing to tolerate to get them, at least for now. Geography continues to be the biggest problem in our job market, it's always been that way, only on now on steroids with overexpansion

Exactly. My first job was a low MGMA decent location job. Took another position in the boonies that pays 2X what I was making before. I probably wouldn't have done this if I had no questions as to weather rad onc would still be a viable specialty for the next 30 years (meaning you can find decent employment not that RT won't be used). I figured gotta make the good money while its still on the table in this specialty. Kinda feel sorry, but not really at this point, for the future pgy-2s that insist on ignoring the cold realities facing the specialty.
 
Exactly. My first job was a low MGMA decent location job. Took another position in the boonies that pays 2X what I was making before. I probably wouldn't have done this if I had no questions as to weather rad onc would still be a viable specialty for the next 30 years (meaning you can find decent employment not that RT won't be used). I figured gotta make the good money while its still on the table in this specialty. Kinda feel sorry, but not really at this point, for the future pgy-2s that insist on ignoring the cold realities facing the specialty.
It’s really hard to understand this when you’re young and cool. Living in DC for 8 years was fun and a great time, but put me way behind financially, compared to taking a somewhat less desirable region to earn more and be able to put more towards retirement. But young people don’t want to live in these types of places. I have a feeling I may have some trouble with recruiting in Tacoma.
 
The field needs more people like me who will live anywhere for cash lmao!
 
It’s really hard to understand this when you’re young and cool. Living in DC for 8 years was fun and a great time, but put me way behind financially, compared to taking a somewhat less desirable region to earn more and be able to put more towards retirement. But young people don’t want to live in these types of places. I have a feeling I may have some trouble with recruiting in Tacoma.
I like Tacoma :shrug:
 
It’s really hard to understand this when you’re young and cool. Living in DC for 8 years was fun and a great time, but put me way behind financially, compared to taking a somewhat less desirable region to earn more and be able to put more towards retirement. But young people don’t want to live in these types of places. I have a feeling I may have some trouble with recruiting in Tacoma.

Tacoma is fantastic - Mt. Rainier, Mt. Hood, Olympic National Park, fishing the salmon run in Astoria, boating and crabbing the San Juans…
 
It’s really hard to understand this when you’re young and cool. Living in DC for 8 years was fun and a great time, but put me way behind financially, compared to taking a somewhat less desirable region to earn more and be able to put more towards retirement. But young people don’t want to live in these types of places. I have a feeling I may have some trouble with recruiting in Tacoma.

I don't "want" to live where I am but I had to make a calculated/realistic decision about paying off loans and saving for retirement and positioning myself so I could exit the specialty before it exits me. I have doubled the volume of my clinic compared to what the guy who retired at age 70 was doing. But if everything moves to 5 and 0 fraction breasts from 19 and 15 fractions in 10 years I'm not sure that the clinic would be viable.
 
I don't "want" to live where I am but I had to make a calculated/realistic decision about paying off loans and saving for retirement and positioning myself so I could exit the specialty before it exits me. I have doubled the volume of my clinic compared to what the guy who retired at age 70 was doing. But if everything moves to 5 and 0 fraction breasts from 19 and 15 fractions in 10 years I'm not sure that the clinic would be viable.
Same. I suppose APM could save the day in this scenario.
 
Tacoma is fantastic - Mt. Rainier, Mt. Hood, Olympic National Park, fishing the salmon run in Astoria, boating and crabbing the San Juans…
I certainly like it. Let’s see what happens if we have to recruit!
 
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I didn't feel like doing this on Twitter (my bat signal was indeed activated), but I know the relevant folks read this thread.

Natalie (and the others who think like her): you're only considering half the picture. I absolutely agree that it is a benefit to patients if we can achieve similar outcomes with easier/shorter regimens. Only a sociopath or a greedy liar would disagree with that statement.

However, you know what's even easier on patients? Having centers in the communities where patients live. When faced with driving to NYC or Houston 5-10 times for a "quick" SBRT treatment (consult, CTSIM, perhaps VSIM on a separate day, ~5 fractions, etc) vs 15-20 treatments in their hometown "not in the big city", I am absolutely certain that the majority of patients will opt to stay local.

However, by focusing our attention on fraction shaming instead of CMS reimbursement cuts and forced experimental financial models - driven by pharma lobbyists and cheered on by the PPS-exempt elite - we face the threat of rural linacs not remaining financially solvent. Sure, some of these linacs might be "rescued" by an academic conglomerate turning it into a satellite and staffed by an "Assistant Professor" of Radiation Oncology (some poor soul who graduated in the post-Golden Bubble era making a salary that would have been literally scoffed at by someone who had graduated in 2005 (even without adjusting for inflation), never making it to the Associate level because they're unable to meet absurd metrics...), but not every linac will be "saved" like that.

So, what is actually more financially toxic? Receiving 20 fractions in the community you live in, with local doctors who know you and each other, where you can receive a continuum of care without hours of round trip driving, or receiving 5 fractions at The Ivory Tower, a 2 hour drive each way, with a healthcare team who will only interact with you for that brief period in your life because you can't afford/don't have the savvy to receive all of your care permanently at The Ivory Tower?

Since the linked paper is more about the drive time, and not the number of visits, it appears that patients would indeed prefer to stay local:

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Of course Sloan isn't RVU based. Why would they be? The institution (not the doctors) make more money off their SBRT regimens then community practices could ever dream of.

And therein lies the problem. I really like Fumiko and her work. I really like the idea of short and effective treatments for patients. I really like the idea that perhaps healthcare in America doesn't need to be run like a business. But what is actually happening here? We have doctors working in Ivory Towers pushing out paper after paper trying to reduce or omit radiation, while the institution they work for has negotiated unfathomable reimbursement rates to line the pockets of C-suite executives and shareholders. The Chairs of those departments have continued to push for a large resident labor force because of the profit margin on those residents which appease their overlords, the C-suite executives and shareholders. Meanwhile, pharma lobbyists work in Congress to cut chunks of the Oncology pie away from XRT to appease their overlords, the C-suite executives and shareholders.

Doctors are painted as villains and patients go into bankruptcy. But hey, I know the pCR rates from the German Rectal Trial off the top of my head, which is clearly what matters, right?
 
View attachment 343992
View attachment 343993

I didn't feel like doing this on Twitter (my bat signal was indeed activated), but I know the relevant folks read this thread.

Natalie (and the others who think like her): you're only considering half the picture. I absolutely agree that it is a benefit to patients if we can achieve similar outcomes with easier/shorter regimens. Only a sociopath or a greedy liar would disagree with that statement.

However, you know what's even easier on patients? Having centers in the communities where patients live. When faced with driving to NYC or Houston 5-10 times for a "quick" SBRT treatment (consult, CTSIM, perhaps VSIM on a separate day, ~5 fractions, etc) vs 15-20 treatments in their hometown "not in the big city", I am absolutely certain that the majority of patients will opt to stay local.

However, by focusing our attention on fraction shaming instead of CMS reimbursement cuts and forced experimental financial models - driven by pharma lobbyists and cheered on by the PPS-exempt elite - we face the threat of rural linacs not remaining financially solvent. Sure, some of these linacs might be "rescued" by an academic conglomerate turning it into a satellite and staffed by an "Assistant Professor" of Radiation Oncology (some poor soul who graduated in the post-Golden Bubble era making a salary that would have been literally scoffed at by someone who had graduated in 2005 (even without adjusting for inflation), never making it to the Associate level because they're unable to meet absurd metrics...), but not every linac will be "saved" like that.

So, what is actually more financially toxic? Receiving 20 fractions in the community you live in, with local doctors who know you and each other, where you can receive a continuum of care without hours of round trip driving, or receiving 5 fractions at The Ivory Tower, a 2 hour drive each way, with a healthcare team who will only interact with you for that brief period in your life because you can't afford/don't have the savvy to receive all of your care permanently at The Ivory Tower?

Since the linked paper is more about the drive time, and not the number of visits, it appears that patients would indeed prefer to stay local:

View attachment 343995

Of course Sloan isn't RVU based. Why would they be? The institution (not the doctors) make more money off their SBRT regimens then community practices could ever dream of.

And therein lies the problem. I really like Fumiko and her work. I really like the idea of short and effective treatments for patients. I really like the idea that perhaps healthcare in America doesn't need to be run like a business. But what is actually happening here? We have doctors working in Ivory Towers pushing out paper after paper trying to reduce or omit radiation, while the institution they work for has negotiated unfathomable reimbursement rates to line the pockets of C-suite executives and shareholders. The Chairs of those departments have continued to push for a large resident labor force because of the profit margin on those residents which appease their overlords, the C-suite executives and shareholders. Meanwhile, pharma lobbyists work in Congress to cut chunks of the Oncology pie away from XRT to appease their overlords, the C-suite executives and shareholders.

Doctors are painted as villains and patients go into bankruptcy. But hey, I know the pCR rates from the German Rectal Trial off the top of my head, which is clearly what matters, right?
Totally agree. Travel burden does matter to patients, which is why I've got to think about how to keep the center I run solvent. If only it were so simple as 8 gy x 1 reimbursing the same as 3 gy x 10. Hate to tell you Drs. Chino and Ridge, but they ****ing don't. I work in the real world.
 
not sure why Dr. Ridge at least is being targeted or antagonized, if you have paid attention to her prior tweets, she says most of the stuff that is said here. she should probably be careful as a resident.
 
not sure why Dr. Ridge at least is being targeted or antagonized, if you have paid attention to her prior tweets, she says most of the stuff that is said here. she should probably be careful as a resident.
Totally agree. She's been great on Twitter. However, I think it's important to not mischaracterize the "SDN Narrative" as "less fractions bad, more fractions good". That's the general strawman that is used on Twitter and real-life to stereotype genuine concerns, and just handwave the "internet misanthropes" into people who are "really angry and seem to hate Radiation Oncology".
 
not sure why Dr. Ridge at least is being targeted or antagonized, if you have paid attention to her prior tweets, she says most of the stuff that is said here. she should probably be careful as a resident.
Don't know where else she's being targeted, but her tweet was an accusation, and just pleading ignorance doesn't justify it. This isn't 'Nam.
 
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Many of us have constantly said less fraction is excellent for patients and society and at the same time cruel to train record numbers of residents while actively decreasing the amount of work the field does.

It’s the key distinction that those in power who push to do less appropriately, also push to have more CMS subsidized, debt riddled indentured servants with not a care in the world for what happens to young rad oncs because the older generation made theirs and is set.

Saying SDN crowd hates lower fractions in and of itself is reflection that someone either lacks reading comprehension skills, or paints all people of a group with the same brush. You know, the same type of blanket judgement they would be righteously indignant about in any other setting.
 
Using those clapping hands emojis like that is super abrasive. I’m within the far reaches of mskcc’s driving distance referral orb but have never once received a direct referral from their rad onc department. Just saying don’t pat yourself too hard on the back there.
 
What galls me is that Natalie does have her heart in the right place but seems to have picked a target (this forum) and that seems really misplaced. I don’t know that I see any DO-hate. Concern or raised eyebrows ? Sure, but far less than the actual programs who are soiling their underwear with stress induced IBS mini sh*ts looking at the demographics of applicants. Trust me - I don’t have a problem with it. I see that most of you don’t care - we just want less residents. What a fiasco.
 
"Less fractions bad" given numbers of rad oncs we have in America!

Fraction👏 numbers👏 matter 👏given 👏oversupply

There are 6000 rad oncs in America in 2022. There will be 1 million patient consults to start RT.

That's 167 patients per rad onc (high confidence)

That's ~3 new consults per week on average per rad onc (high confidence), and this will lead to ~10 patients under beam per RO on avg (high confidence)

About 25% of ROs in America will be new-starting more than 3 patients per week and 75% will be new-starting 3 or less patients per week (medium confidence)
 
What galls me is that Natalie does have her heart in the right place but seems to have picked a target (this forum) and that seems really misplaced. I don’t know that I see any DO-hate. Concern or raised eyebrows ? Sure, but far less than the actual programs who are soiling their underwear with stress induced IBS mini sh*ts looking at the demographics of applicants. Trust me - I don’t have a problem with it. I see that most of you don’t care - we just want less residents. What a fiasco.
She probably should be focused more on finding a job at this stage of the game?

SDN does have a number of attendings at various stages of their career at practices around the country, just don't see how these misplaced Twitter rants help her situation except to give her a bad look. SDN didn't cause the problems our specialty faces nor were we the ones telling Sloane and Anderson to ignore DOs, FMGs and anyone with low step scores etc
 
What galls me is that Natalie does have her heart in the right place but seems to have picked a target (this forum) and that seems really misplaced. I don’t know that I see any DO-hate. Concern or raised eyebrows ? Sure, but far less than the actual programs who are soiling their underwear with stress induced IBS mini sh*ts looking at the demographics of applicants. Trust me - I don’t have a problem with it. I see that most of you don’t care - we just want less residents. What a fiasco.

This is the kind of nonsense you get from people who want to doublespeak. Rad onc programs would not consider DOs or FMGs 5-10 years ago. Period. Full stop. Any exceptions were extremely rare. Maybe 1-2/year. Very few programs would even think about it.

Now they are taking DOs and FMGs. Why? Because American MDs don't want the positions. When DOs had their own match there was not a single DO rad onc program. This is just reality.

Instead of blaming programs who used to blatantly discriminate against DOs and FMGs without saying it publicly, these people want to blame SDN for pointing out reality. It's a shameful tactic in my opinion.
 
"Less fractions bad" given numbers of rad oncs we have in America!

Fraction👏 numbers👏 matter 👏given 👏oversupply

There are 6000 rad oncs in America in 2022. There will be 1 million patient consults to start RT.

That's 167 patients per rad onc (high confidence)

That's ~3 new consults per week on average per rad onc (high confidence), and this will lead to ~10 patients under beam per RO on avg (high confidence)

About 25% of ROs in America will be new-starting more than 3 patients per week and 75% will be new-starting 3 or less patients per week (medium confidence)

That's all based on a normal distribution, correct? I suspect new starts per doc histogram are more fat tailed/Pareto .

Your overall point is correct though I fear.
 
This is the kind of nonsense you get from people who want to doublespeak. Rad onc programs would not consider DOs or FMGs 5-10 years ago. Period. Full stop. Any exceptions were extremely rare. Maybe 1-2/year. Very few programs would even think about it.

Now they are taking DOs and FMGs. Why? Because American MDs don't want the positions. When DOs had their own match there was not a single DO rad onc program. This is just reality.

Instead of blaming programs who used to blatantly discriminate against DOs and FMGs without saying it publicly, these people want to blame SDN for pointing out reality. It's a shameful tactic in my opinion.

It was not long ago that DO students would get on SDN, during peak rad onc, for application advice, frequently asking which programs were "DO friendly". There was not a residency program out there that cared about DOs, FMGs/IMGs, or even diversity. They just cared about PhDs, research years, publications, and Step scores.
 
That's all based on a normal distribution, correct? I suspect new starts per doc histogram are more fat tailed/Pareto .

Your overall point is correct though I fear.
Def Pareto. Thus, best case scenario, 3 out of 4 ROs in America will have 3 or less new starts per week in 2022... esp if we have a fair number of ROs responsible for ~zero new starts per week (ie unretired but not treating patients, or unemployed). (Again, medium confidence in these numbers.) Academic RO needs to have a discussion about why we keep making 200 plus ROs per year if 75% or more of US ROs are starting 3 or less patients per week under beam. Of course by "needs to" I mean "will not."
 
yet the most commented post by far on this forum is about the Twitteratis...
Many of those tweets are representative of so much that ails the specialty. Hard not to point out the gaslighting/ignorance/mistruths.

At SDN we debate issues, at RadOnCrocks Twitter they debate SDN. You're certainly welcome to stick to that forum if that is better suited to you?
 
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Many of those tweets are representative of so much that ails the specialty. Hard not to point out the gaslighting/ignorance/mistruths.

At SDN we debate issues, at RadOnCrocks Twitter they debate SDN. You're certainly welcome to stick to that forum if that is better suited to you?
Ain’t that the truth?

Academics publish things that say “SDN” influenced interview season, when they actually don’t understand that Reddit is a different platform. They talk about cancel culture in opinion pieces, not understanding that if they are writing in a journal non anonymously as a chairman, they aren’t canceled. They still blame “angry internet people” for what ails our specialty. @radiation - maybe we do discuss things here - but it’s because many people over there are intellectually and otherwise dishonest. It’s worth pointing it out, in my opinion.
 
I’m all for SDN but what I think is strange is the people who act like this is their family that needs to be defended. Lmao.

It’s a internet chat room with a guy with a crocodile Aligator who posts about ‘bread lines’ and has a carbon ion angle.

It’s not that serious, relax bros.
 
I’m all for SDN but what I think is strange is the people who act like this is their family that needs to be defended. Lmao.

It’s a internet chat room with a guy with a crocodile Aligator who posts about ‘bread lines’ and has a carbon ion angle.

It’s not that serious, relax bros.
Got it. You’re much cooler than me.

A small minority of people on a forum, essentially on the fringes, are being blamed for the downfall of a once sought after field. I feel attacked. Many of us do.

Maybe it’s not family, but SDN got me interested in the field - not some academic, not some chairman, not my own Med school department. Many people that are my contemporaries learned about RO the same way. It continues to be a very supportive place and one where honest conversations can happen

You’ve come on here to try to play contrarian, but you’ve been just basically rude (to me, at least; that post was deleted, which I appreciate) and your arguments just aren’t that .. inspiring or strong. It’s a good bit of what-about-ism without anything insightful.

You want to come here and mock us? That’s fine. It’s not particularly constructive, but that’s something that’s part of SDN and we are welcoming of the villains! We miss Turaco/KHE88 and the others that give this place character. And you add to that. It would be better if it were more than “Look at you nerds and weirdos that take things so seriously. Why don’t you just have a beer, man?” But, as the kids say, you do you.

I do have a question, though. Are we the ineffectual losers you think we are or are we puppet masters that have pulled the strings and turned RO into the easiest specialty to get into? I have a hard time believing it is the latter. Other than me and a few others that use their names, these are just random community docs with free time on their hands, not the Illuminati.
 
oh all the issues themselves are serious. no argument there.

new curb soon.
 
Oh you were talking about something else, sorry, 20% of my brain power is dedicated towards worrying about if I'll have a job.

are you graduating this year or next?

you will for sure end up with a job you are happy enough with.

your PGY0,1,2 friends should be worried.
 
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lol if you google 'rad onc' this is what comes up hahaha. from 2008.
 
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