Rad Onc Twitter

  • Thread starter Thread starter deleted1002574
  • Start date Start date
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Anyone at ASTRO? The chatter is out, you hear it everywhere :

- job market is strong!
- residents HAPPY HAPPY
- rad onc is back, folks!


Many expecting SDN to Bend the knee. I have my doubts!

"The job market is GREAT this year. Everyone is hiring! Our graduates got jobs easily! The job market has not changed at all in the past decade. I don't understand why people are saying otherwise.

The problem is that medical students nowadays are unrealistic. They want an easy job, high pay, and their choice of location. It wasn't like this ten years ago, medical students were much more reasonable back then...

We'll fill our residency program no problem. Step 1 was always such a bad metric. And what's wrong with foreign medical graduates? They're so hard working. We've had some great ones in the past."

So I hear in the Faculty/VIP office...
 
"The job market is GREAT this year. Everyone is hiring! Our graduates got jobs easily! The job market has not changed at all in the past decade. I don't understand why people are saying otherwise.

The problem is that medical students nowadays are unrealistic. They want an easy job, high pay, and their choice of location. It wasn't like this ten years ago, medical students were much more reasonable back then...

We'll fill our residency program no problem. Step 1 was always such a bad metric. And what's wrong with foreign medical graduates? They're so hard working. We've had some great ones in the past."

So I hear in the Faculty/VIP office...
1635259874181.png
 
If he doesn’t hire (new add… “entry level”) anybody in the next three years he’s a liar. When he hires he cuts into his own wallet so will be interesting to circle back.

It's really hard to measure this with his mega hospital system. Northwell Health is the 14th largest health system in the U.S. and the largest in New York. If Northwell gobbles up another hospital/practice and a new grad is hired to staff the rad onc department at lower cost does that count as "a planning to hire" win?
 
As someone doing a lot of interviews this year, I’m seeing/hearing “indicators” that I’ve never seen/heard before.

Like death, the collapse will be slow at first, then all of a sudden.
I second medgator... this board is the only source of knowledge for these "indicators." Do tell.
 


Unfortunately, judging by the number of people in the audience on those pictures, the biggest myth likely debunked is that radiation oncologists actually care to listen about fractionation for bone mets.

Okay, that was mean. I am sorry...
 


Unfortunately, judging by the number of people in the audience on those pictures, the biggest myth likely debunked is that radiation oncologists actually care to listen about fractionation for bone mets.

Okay, that was mean. I am sorry...

At this point, is this any different than telling people that smoking causes lung cancer?

Unless, of course the myth is that 8 x1 is always cheaper than 3 x 10.
 


Unfortunately, judging by the number of people in the audience on those pictures, the biggest myth likely debunked is that radiation oncologists actually care to listen about fractionation for bone mets.

Okay, that was mean. I am sorry...


Word from a friend is that overall attendance is similar to a normal year with ~40% in person and 60% online.

The thing is only 40% in person makes everything seem really empty. It's a little sad honestly.
 
This can be the start of a new instagram thing. We take pics of ourselves contouring in beautiful and/or extreme conditions. In a tent on El Capitan. Next to a line of coke with Keith Richards. Underwater in Australia in a shark cage in chummed waters. Driving a Formula 1 racecar.
(replying to myself)

Now that I think about it, probably the most dangerous place to get a pic of me contouring is at a f****** public bar next to a f****** glass of alcohol.
 
If only we could convince them to concentrate their reductions on skin HDR,
Really it looks good if you have prof svcs contract and do your own prof billing in a hospital.
It looks bad for hospitals.
It looks bad for freestanding owners.
It looks bad for employees of hospitals and freestandings; in theory, the technical negative offsets of minus ~10-15% could be mitigated by shifting that loss on to a ~30-35% salary reduction in employees.
 
Really it looks good if you have prof svcs contract and do your own prof billing in a hospital.
It looks bad for hospitals.
It looks bad for freestanding owners.
It looks bad for employees of hospitals and freestandings; in theory, the technical negative offsets of minus ~10-15% could be mitigated by shifting that loss on to a ~30-35% salary reduction in employees.
It looks GREAT for PGY-6's (oops, I'm sorry I mean Clinical Instructors). They won't see a single hit to their compensation! In fact if they work hard enough they may see an increase from $150k to $175k!
 
Yeah I noticed this immediately and I thought "Is this the first time where someone is Kaplan Meiering me in weeks over a 1 year period?" It was pretty... um... odd. Not really wrong, but kind of like dressing up and missing a belt loop in your pants with your belt and one of you shirt buttons is buttoned in the wrong hole. Not my cup of tea. Praising this study is like telling a guy dressed this way "You look so GQ."
The stats are atrocious but kind of an interesting trial. Only treating oligoprogressive disease in patients with wider burden of mets. Metastatic triple negative a nightmare and wonder about differences in efficacy of systemic therapy given. The ctDNA thing is an interesting angle.

Should actually be pretty easy to accrue 200+ patients to straight up NSCLC with oligoprogressive and higher burden of metastatic disease. This could actually generate some patients for this community doc!

What is their accrual goal?
 
HOLY CRAP.

Imagine thinking is is a good idea to (a) contour in a public place like a bar where everyone can see your business, (b) not only admit to drinking while doing so but in full view of untold bottles of alcohol, (c) forget to properly blur out the patients PHI on the screen, (d) tag our damn professional society in the process and (e) try to shill shamelessly for the company who gives you money like some vapid Instagram model.

I can only imagine the reaction from the ASTRO 2021 Twitter curator when they saw this post.
I didn't know rad oncs can work in a bar, lmao.
 
- Treating 30 mets with SRS is unethical, this is a case for WBRT. Not to mention financial toxicity to the pt!
This is exactly how an MD bankrupts the poor family (the widow and kids have to deal with it).

- Oh wait, the SRS technical charges are probably sufficient (according to RO-APM) to pay for the red wine and truffled french fries...

- If Marie Curie sees this, she won't be happy...
 
- Treating 30 mets with SRS is unethical, this is a case for WBRT. Not to mention financial toxicity to the pt!
This is exactly how an MD bankrupts the poor family (the widow and kids have to deal with it).

- Oh wait, the SRS technical charges are probably sufficient (according to RO-APM) to pay for the red wine and truffled french fries...

- If Marie Curie sees this, she won't be happy...
But if you need to come only for 1 session of SRS, you only need to pay 1 time for the parking fees!

I didn't know rad oncs can work in a bar, lmao.
A prophecy!
 
- Treating 30 mets with SRS is unethical, this is a case for WBRT. Not to mention financial toxicity to the pt!
This is exactly how an MD bankrupts the poor family (the widow and kids have to deal with it).

- Oh wait, the SRS technical charges are probably sufficient (according to RO-APM) to pay for the red wine and truffled french fries...

- If Marie Curie sees this, she won't be happy...

Don't disagree on the WBRT take for 30 brain mets, but from a financial toxicity perspective it may depend on the insurer. At least from the medicare reimbursement table from a few posts ago a 2D (10 fractions) global payment is $4921 vs $3638 for SRS.
 
Don't disagree on the WBRT take for 30 brain mets, but from a financial toxicity perspective it may depend on the insurer. At least from the medicare reimbursement table from a few posts ago a 2D (10 fractions) global payment is $4921 vs $3638 for SRS.
And 3D is even higher in freestanding facilities. It’s not the cost argument for the treatment, although probably should factor in cost of SRS MRI.

Hospital rates probably a lot higher, tho and the technical for SRS could be a pretty hefty charge.
 
Don't disagree on the WBRT take for 30 brain mets, but from a financial toxicity perspective it may depend on the insurer. At least from the medicare reimbursement table from a few posts ago a 2D (10 fractions) global payment is $4921 vs $3638 for SRS.
I think Kentucky was getting 60k+ from some insurances for GK. I used to be an advocate for whole brain in this setting (appropriate pt), but have become a convert to srt, largely by implementing uabs system.
 
Important to keep in mind...
1) For all we know, pt could have had prior WBRT, in which case I would do SRS

2) With 30 mets, you are probably giving some degree of "WBRT" anyway with your low dose spill.
 
Important to keep in mind...
1) For all we know, pt could have had prior WBRT, in which case I would do SRS

2) With 30 mets, you are probably giving some degree of "WBRT" anyway with your low dose spill.
Low dose spill to whole brain in these cases can a 3-4 gy, not nearly what you would expect.
 
View attachment 344953
Looks like the walrus is correct. I guess once you've seen a tweet it will still load it hence i was able to view it now. Crazy

Dumb AF. Glad to see it immortalized forever on SDN.
At the same time, it's strange nobody here has questioned whether it's even reasonable to srs 30 mets.

None of us know the clinical backstory. I don't hate SRSing 30 in someone who has already received whole brain, or has a radioresistant histology (melanoma/RCC/etc.). Would criticize what is best to be criticized.

Alcohol gives you confidence! I’ve seen people do >30, of course at work and definitely not while drinking. I think my threshold is around 10 before I start asking myself isn’t this whole brain anyway.

Brain mean dose would pretty strongly disagree with you, even at a number of say 30 lesions. Depends on size. Main issue is frequently time on table in these scenarios. But mean brain dose is still much, much lower than whole brain.
 
Brain mean dose would pretty strongly disagree with you, even at a number of say 30 lesions. Depends on size. Main issue is frequently time on table in these scenarios. But mean brain dose is still much, much lower than whole brain.
Yes but what is your goal long term? Retreat the rest of the disease in between that invariably shows up later fairly quickly?
 
Yes but what is your goal long term? Retreat the rest of the disease in between that invariably shows up later fairly quickly?

I don't disagree with you. I would WBRT a patient with 30 BMs assuming no previous RT for most histologies, although I would consider skipping it for more radioresistant histologies that are very likely to require additional SRS in 2-3 months anyways.

I am not a WBRT-never person, got 2 on tx in the past month. Just saying that anyone who says "it's basically whole brain" is pretty incorrect.
 
Big news: ASTRO not exactly acting in all its members' best interests.


 
Edge/stx or regular TB?

The problem with answering your question is that a truebeam comes in a lot of configurations. You can add options packages to a truebeam until it is an edge or stx.

I strongly prefer 6D couch, microMLC, OSMS, FFF, and HyperArc package for this purpose.

Eclipse still remains bad at brain fusions and there's no quality control for the planning MRIs, unlike some brain dedicated planning systems. So that's up to the rad onc to make sure that's right as well. Physics QA also needs to be quite rigorous.
 
Really it looks good if you have prof svcs contract and do your own prof billing in a hospital.
It looks bad for hospitals.
It looks bad for freestanding owners.
It looks bad for employees of hospitals and freestandings; in theory, the technical negative offsets of minus ~10-15% could be mitigated by shifting that loss on to a ~30-35% salary reduction in employees.
Pay very close attention to this young PGY's lurking on this board...

This is exactly how administrators think. You are not protected from reimbursement cuts by not being an owner of the machines or not billing your own pro fees. Quite the opposite as there is always someone standing in between the money you generate and where it goes.

No dig on those employed.... in this environment many don't have a choice. But I think many new grads don't see it this way.

I know that I didn't.
 
Dumb AF. Glad to see it immortalized forever on SDN.


None of us know the clinical backstory. I don't hate SRSing 30 in someone who has already received whole brain, or has a radioresistant histology (melanoma/RCC/etc.). Would criticize what is best to be criticized.



Brain mean dose would pretty strongly disagree with you, even at a number of say 30 lesions. Depends on size. Main issue is frequently time on table in these scenarios. But mean brain dose is still much, much lower than whole brain.
Hence why I would pause around ten but definitely size does matter along with path and if they already received RT. I have treated 20-30 before in my day but I find myself going back to whole brain when I start having to either salvage patients with whole brain or find myself chasing new mets.

I view whole brain similar to whole breast (breast is the worst!) when we have been taught to hold our noses up against prior generations of rad oncs but the more I practice, the more I start to realize that the way things were done 10-15 years ago wasn’t as bad of practice as I was taught to believe (or maybe I’ve become that dinosaur).
 
Last edited:
Pay very close attention to this young PGY's lurking on this board...

This is exactly how administrators think. You are not protected from reimbursement cuts by not being an owner of the machines or not billing your own pro fees. Quite the opposite as there is always someone standing in between the money you generate and where it goes.

No dig on those employed.... in this environment many don't have a choice. But I think many new grads don't see it this way.

I know that I didn't.
I cannot believe how many new grads or rad oncs otherwise only want to be employed. I looked at a hospital based practice with strong volume that had been operating on a PSA agreement for decades. Docs were retiring. I was the only doc the hospital spoke to who wanted to maintain an exclusive PSA. Everyone else they interviewed wanted to be employed. I knew what they were willing to pay vs prof collections. I just don’t get the desire for hospital employment in situations where you’d “win” being independent.
 
I cannot believe how many new grads or rad oncs otherwise only want to be employed. I looked at a hospital based practice with strong volume that had been operating on a PSA agreement for decades. Docs were retiring. I was the only doc the hospital spoke to who wanted to maintain an exclusive PSA. Everyone else they interviewed wanted to be employed. I knew what they were willing to pay vs prof collections. I just don’t get the desire for hospital employment in situations where you’d “win” being independent.
I honestly don't know how many residents could read your post and understand what you're saying. If I went around the country and asked every Radiation Oncology resident (or, I guess, any resident) what it meant that a group had been "operating on a PSA for decades", how many do you think would know what I was talking about? 50%? On a good day?

Therein lies the issue, and why we have been absolutely manhandled by the MBA's, or literally anyone with even a modest understanding of finance. Unless something has changed drastically since I graduated, there is absolutely no teaching of the financial side of healthcare in medical school. Kids probably have a vague understanding of what Medicare is, perhaps that it's different than Medicaid, maybe that there are different private insurance companies, etc. I certainly never learned anything about CPT codes, or what an RVU was, or that there were "professional fees" and "technical fees"...let alone that they were different.

Residency was only MARGINALLY better at explaining these topics. I think if you poll RadOnc residents about what RVUs are, they are likely to at least have heard of them because most of their attendings talk about them, but do they really know what RVUs are, or why they're important? I would bet a lot of money most do not.

Many medical students have little work experience outside of academia (maybe they had a work-study staffing the library in undergrad). They know from watching friends and family that most people are employed by some entity and work in return for a paycheck. In residency, they get a flat salary from a hospital. They know their attendings also seem to get a base salary, and maybe a production bonus if they "generate enough RVUs by seeing more patients". They have been taught, either through passive-aggressive side comments or through outright contempt, that the doctors in private practice are just selling out for money. They have been warned about greedy private practice docs since Day 1 of medical school.

The undercurrent of "private practice bad, academia good" runs deep at every medical school in America. Impressionable medical students hear these sentiments and associate learning about the economics of healthcare with a sense of shame. If you mix all of these factors - zero formal financial teaching, shame in expressing interest in finances, and almost exclusively observing the model of doctors employed by universities and hospitals - you're going to breed generation after generation of new grads which think that employment is the only way to practice medicine.

In this current system we've created, with private insurance and CMS playing by different and complex rules, while the threat of malpractice suits loom around every corner, being employed by a hospital is BY FAR the safest and easiest choice. You're still a doctor in America, so your income is significantly higher than most working adults, and most people are happy with that. However, you're choosing a path with a golden ceiling, and you're subject to the whims of hospital administrators.

Doctors like to think that we live in a meritocracy, that if you're smart and work hard enough you'll be OK, and for the most part the MBA's pay us enough that we don't think too deeply about it. However, there are 22 year old kids running around with more financial knowledge than 60 year old attending physicians, and that knowledge gap allows us to be taken for a ride time and time again.
 
I honestly don't know how many residents could read your post and understand what you're saying. If I went around the country and asked every Radiation Oncology resident (or, I guess, any resident) what it meant that a group had been "operating on a PSA for decades", how many do you think would know what I was talking about? 50%? On a good day?

Therein lies the issue, and why we have been absolutely manhandled by the MBA's, or literally anyone with even a modest understanding of finance. Unless something has changed drastically since I graduated, there is absolutely no teaching of the financial side of healthcare in medical school. Kids probably have a vague understanding of what Medicare is, perhaps that it's different than Medicaid, maybe that there are different private insurance companies, etc. I certainly never learned anything about CPT codes, or what an RVU was, or that there were "professional fees" and "technical fees"...let alone that they were different.

Residency was only MARGINALLY better at explaining these topics. I think if you poll RadOnc residents about what RVUs are, they are likely to at least have heard of them because most of their attendings talk about them, but do they really know what RVUs are, or why they're important? I would bet a lot of money most do not.

Many medical students have little work experience outside of academia (maybe they had a work-study staffing the library in undergrad). They know from watching friends and family that most people are employed by some entity and work in return for a paycheck. In residency, they get a flat salary from a hospital. They know their attendings also seem to get a base salary, and maybe a production bonus if they "generate enough RVUs by seeing more patients". They have been taught, either through passive-aggressive side comments or through outright contempt, that the doctors in private practice are just selling out for money. They have been warned about greedy private practice docs since Day 1 of medical school.

The undercurrent of "private practice bad, academia good" runs deep at every medical school in America. Impressionable medical students hear these sentiments and associate learning about the economics of healthcare with a sense of shame. If you mix all of these factors - zero formal financial teaching, shame in expressing interest in finances, and almost exclusively observing the model of doctors employed by universities and hospitals - you're going to breed generation after generation of new grads which think that employment is the only way to practice medicine.

In this current system we've created, with private insurance and CMS playing by different and complex rules, while the threat of malpractice suits loom around every corner, being employed by a hospital is BY FAR the safest and easiest choice. You're still a doctor in America, so your income is significantly higher than most working adults, and most people are happy with that. However, you're choosing a path with a golden ceiling, and you're subject to the whims of hospital administrators.

Doctors like to think that we live in a meritocracy, that if you're smart and work hard enough you'll be OK, and for the most part the MBA's pay us enough that we don't think too deeply about it. However, there are 22 year old kids running around with more financial knowledge than 60 year old attending physicians, and that knowledge gap allows us to be taken for a ride time and time again.
Agreed. Totally. But whose responsibility is it to educate us? At the end of the day, we’re the ones most affected so we need to take it upon ourselves. No one told any of us about PSAs or rvus or any of this bull****.. we had to learn ourselves. If a hospital is open to both employment vs PSA opportunities, it’s on us to learn the pros and cons of both, gather the collection data, research the stability of the practice, find out about the employment track etc etc etc. Anything else is just lazy.
 
Agreed. Totally. But whose responsibility is it to educate us? At the end of the day, we’re the ones most affected so we need to take it upon ourselves. No one told any of us about PSAs or rvus or any of this bull****.. we had to learn ourselves. If a hospital is open to both employment vs PSA opportunities, it’s on us to learn the pros and cons of both, gather the collection data, research the stability of the practice, find out about the employment track etc etc etc. Anything else is just lazy.
Yup... Definitely grew more personally and professionally my first couple years out in practice than i did throughout all of residency.

It's truly remarkable how little real world info most residencies provide to their trainees from what i can gather
 
Does anyone here know which radonc professor bullied Dr Mahal (U Miami)?
Please send that professor to SDN so we can discipline the professor...




I don't know who it is but can easily speculate who it is. Dr. Mahal did residency on the East coast, so I would infer that said physician is on the West coast as I believe that the point he is trying to make is "we are so far away from one another so it seems you are going out of your way to target me." So a well known GU professor/researcher, on the west coast, that is quite notorious for being a dick. Honestly, there can only be one and I think we all know who it is if we think about it just a bit.

edit: I misread the initial posting and thought it suggested the full professor in question was an URM. That being said, still think it's the same person
 
Last edited:
i agree full prof GU person on west, but did I miss why you think he may be an URM? It seemed to me that Mahal was implying he was being targeted because he was an URM? I may have missed it
 
I don't know who it is but can easily speculate who it is. Dr. Mahal did residency on the East coast, so I would infer that said physician is on the West coast as I believe that the point he is trying to make is "we are so far away from one another so it seems you are going out of your way to target me." So a well known GU professor/researcher, who is an URM, on the west coast, that is quite notorious for being a dick. Honestly, there can only be one and I think we all know who it is if we think about it just a bit.
While it took a lot of courage to write that email at the time, he also explicitly states in a following tweet the targeting was based on his race. There's a difference between allowing an assh0le to remain anonymous vs allowing a racist to remain anonymous. If true, there should be more than a tweet full of redactions.
 
Does anyone here know which radonc professor bullied Dr Mahal (U Miami)?
Please send that professor to SDN so we can discipline the professor...



I agree with @RSAOaky - reading between the lines of this email, I think we all know who this is.

I wish I could say I'm surprised. I am not.
 
Top