Rad Onc Twitter

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I’m going to petition the ABR for a new designation Golden Era Radiation Oncologist (GERO): RadOncMegatron, MD, DABR, GERO

im sure you are kidding but have also seen this thought presented here multiple times. certainly a new level of elitism on par with those in ivory tower to think youre a better rad onc because you matched in 2012 and not 2022.

don't kid yourself.
 
im sure you are kidding but have also seen this thought presented here multiple times. certainly a new level of elitism on par with those in ivory tower to think youre a better rad onc because you matched in 2012 and not 2022.

don't kid yourself.
You think there's no difference between someone who matched in 1996 vs 2006? Don't kid yourself
 
You think there's no difference between someone who matched in 1996 vs 2006? Don't kid yourself

in their average step scores? sure, probably (though have not seen the numbers)

do i think it's weird that if you as someone in practice for 10 years still cares about your step score? yes.

do i think any of your referrings, nurses, patients care? No.

im someone who matched in peak rad onc, but my point stands - i would never be arrogant enough to think that 'at large' this should matter.
 
in their average step scores? sure, probably (though have not seen the numbers)

do i think it's weird that if you as someone in practice for 10 years still cares about your step score? yes.

do i think any of your referrings, nurses, patients care? No.

im someone who matched in peak rad onc, but my point stands - i would never be arrogant enough to think that 'at large' this should matter.
Have you ever met or worked with someone who trained in the 90s or 70s? It isn't just about the step score difference. Many programs went unfilled during those times and were reaching to match anyone.

(Hint: many boomers match pre 2000)
 
Have you ever met or worked with someone who trained in the 90s or 70s? It isn't just about the step score difference. Many programs went unfilled during those times and were reaching to match anyone.

(Hint: many boomers match pre 2000)

There’s a lot of reasons people aren’t good rad oncs. Not saying all rad oncs and all treatments provided are the same.

But you’re conflating stuff. The reason someone who is a boomer probably can’t keep up now has nothing to do with the fact that they got a 220 and not a 260 and a lot more to do with the current era just passing them by. Learning complex IMRT and how to do a fusion is more influenced by training with pencil and X-ray, not step scores.
 
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And there are things that change with time. Be careful with that, especially in a technical field like rad onc. Someone leaving training now would think not using 4D would not be what they’re used to.

However that is not because of your competitiveness in Med school. It’s just a different era you trained in and what you consider a must.
 
Yeah, it’s playing into the academics’ hands to suggest that scores and pubs and letters make you a better doctor. Dangerous game to play.
They are playing that game now saying they are seeing some of the most "dedicated" and "passionate" people applying now... We both have seen several PDs say this within the last couple of cycles

What about the research? Many of us had to do projects to demonstrate a commitment to the field .. it wasn't just about scores unlike ortho or derm before the current era
 
And there are things that change with time. Be careful with that, especially in a technical field like rad onc. Someone leaving training now would think not using 4D would not be what they’re used to.

However that is not because of your competitiveness in Med school. It’s just a different era you trained in and what you consider a must.
I guess you have to work with some of them to get an idea of what i am talking about. Some others will agree with me here, I'm sure
 
What about the research? Many of us had to do projects to demonstrate a commitment to the field .. it wasn't just about scores unlike ortho or derm before the current era


again - do you think the research you did as a med student makes you a better rad onc now than someone who didn't do much research in med school?

whether or not current applicants have research experience, they are still going to get exposed in residency.

what a reach.
 
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I guess you have to work with some of them to get an idea of what i am talking about. Some others will agree with me here, I'm sure


this idea (that you have come back to many times) that people that matched in the 90s are dumb/terrible is just a really bad take.
yeah bob timmerman is a real dummy. million other examples.

it's just another way for Gen X to feel superior. not into it.


and remember - yesterday's boomer whose contours and technique you don't like or laughed at - that is now you. some younger person is going to see your practice and have some critiques.

and to make it clear - there are plenty of boomers doing shoddy, bad work, who should be put out to pasture. but this is just because the field has passed them by. it is NOT because they were inherently too dumb.
 
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again - do you think the research you did as a med student makes you a better rad onc now than someone who didn't do much research in med school?

whether or not current applicants have research experience, they are still going to get exposed in residency.

what a reach.
It showed a commitment to the field and genuine interest before entering it. Are you saying students matching now have the same level of commitment and interest?
 
im sure you are kidding but have also seen this thought presented here multiple times. certainly a new level of elitism on par with those in ivory tower to think youre a better rad onc because you matched in 2012 and not 2022.

don't kid yourself.
Yes, it’s a joke as I agree any med school graduate is an amazing and smart person, but we all also know why the joke is funny haha lol
 
this idea (that you have come back to many times) that people that matched in the 90s are dumb/terrible is just a really bad take.
yeah bob timmerman is a real dummy. million other examples.

it's just another way for Gen X to feel superior. not into it.


and remember - yesterday's boomer whose contours and technique you don't like or laughed at - that is now you. some younger person is going to see your practice and have some critiques.
Says the resident troll who rails against boomers destroying this field on a regular basis. That's rich.

When does your probationary status end, again?
 
Are you saying students matching now have the same level of commitment and interest?


ummm med students now that are actually trying and rotating and working hard to get into radonc, DESPITE the lack of prestige/$$$$$$, I would say are pretty committed to the field.

but this is a totally different topic from whether or not they will be good rad oncs.
 
ummm med students now that are actually trying and rotating and working hard to get into radonc, DESPITE the lack of prestige, I would say are pretty committed to the field.

but this is a totally different topic from whether or not they will be good rad oncs.
Those aren't the ones getting soaped which is the actual issue we need to deal with
 
Those aren't the ones getting soaped which is the actual issue we need to deal with

Do you in your heart of hearts believe that someone who tried and didnt get into Ortho but then soaped into rad onc and then spent 4 years in a training program and passed their boards - CAN'T contour a prostate?

let's be real.
 
Do you in your heart of hearts believe that someone who tried and didnt get into Ortho but then soaped into rad onc and then spent 4 years in a training program and passed their boards - CAN'T contour a prostate?

let's be real.
You think that's the average candidate getting soaped? Let's be real
 
You think that's the average candidate getting soaped? Let's be real


fine. we go back to the 220 step who does a full rad onc residency and passes all their boards. you think they can't contour a prostate? I'm sure you want all your prostate patients treated at the quartenary academic center too.

pick whatever characteristic you want to pick (no research, no score, no experience in med school, no aways). we are talking about a minority of grads, regardless, in terms of Soap.
 
Competitiveness is bogus anyway. It is largely a measure of training positions offered vs societal need. Trust me, if only 8 neurology spots were offered, it would be damn competitive. IM will always be near the bottom, but this is not because most really good medical students don't go into IM, in fact they do. It's because there are huge numbers of IM spots with community programs across the country offering positions.

Radonc competitiveness now is where is should be. Has any other field, to the same degree, increased in relative terms the number of training spots over the past 15 years? This, while concurrently reaping the downward pressure of maturing evidence based medicine and a competing treatment modality that is exploding?

I see the lists from 2005 and 2021 and in general think progress is being made. (But I'm not sure.) I frankly worry about the quality of young general surgery and OB-GYN practitioners relative to their elders, and increased competitiveness hopefully indicates increased interest, although it may indicate an increased societal need and just more dollars being thrown at these docs.

Certain radonc programs were very well respected even in the 80s. Surgeons held Sam Hellman and RW in high esteem because they were very very academically rigorous, smart and intellectually progressive. (I have been told this by surgeons who trained at their institutions during this era). The present crop of academic radoncs can do the same, even though hardly anybody should want to join the field in its present incarnation.
 
'although it may indicate an increased societal need and just more dollars being thrown at these docs'

yeah especially for gen surg, there has been upswing.
 
It doesn’t matter.

The field isn’t hard to master. We didn’t need 260s and letters from “famous people” or a bunch of trash research. They just made you think you needed it to be good at this job. You need some bit of dedication and willingness to read on your own and an inherent desire to take care of cancer patients. I don’t know how any of the prior metrics predict for that.
 
This is insane.

If you can get through medical school, pass your steps, and care about doing a good job, that’s literally all you need. There are “peak RO” docs that are terrible and pre-Peak era ones that changed the world. Eek, I wonder if other “peak” era people think like that.
 
It doesn’t matter.

The field isn’t hard to master. We didn’t need 260s and letters from “famous people” or a bunch of trash research. They just made you think you needed it to be good at this job. You need some bit of dedication and willingness to read on your own and an inherent desire to take care of cancer patients. I don’t know how any of the prior metrics predict for that.

I wish I could have said this when I applied. Definitely thought about it a lot during those high anxiety days and the prospect of not matching! What a joke.
 
The uptick in gen surg interest started when I was in med school. What I found interesting is it seemed to be driven by genuine interest in the work, rather than a recent increase in compensation or cush lifestyle.

def not cush. agree that it's driven by interest in the work, but also after a downswing for some time, the income has gone quite high again. hospitals always need a gen surgeon, especially in smaller cities.
 
The uptick in gen surg interest started when I was in med school. What I found interesting is it seemed to be driven by genuine interest in the work, rather than a recent increase in compensation or cush lifestyle.
The hour worked for $ just doesn't make sense for a straight GS. I sense its become more competitive because if you cant get into a fast track program for CTS, plastics, or vascular or youre dead set on colorectal, onc, breast, or trauma then this is the only way. Its a gateway specialty in the same way IM except with fewer slots than IM.
 
The hour worked for $ just doesn't make sense for a straight GS. I sense its become more competitive because if you cant get into a fast track program for CTS, plastics, or vascular or youre dead set on colorectal, onc, breast, or trauma then this is the only way. Its a gateway specialty in the same way IM except with fewer slots than IM.
That’s definitely true. I think most of the new applicants to gen Surg are planning to sub-specialize. The thing about it is, not all of those sub-specialties earn more than straight general surgery. Breast, colorectal, trauma, and surg onc for example are just doing general surgery procedures, but at higher volume. The quality of their surgery is surely better because of the focus, but that doesn’t mean they get paid more.
 
That’s definitely true. I think most of the new applicants to gen Surg are planning to sub-specialize. The thing about it is, not all of those sub-specialties earn more than straight general surgery. Breast, colorectal, trauma, and surg onc for example are just doing general surgery procedures, but at higher volume. The quality of their surgery is surely better because of the focus, but that doesn’t mean they get paid more.

At this point, I am not aware of any GS surgical resdient who did 5 years and went straight into practice from my former program. Literally everyone specialized which of course adds idk an extra 1-3 years perhaps.
 
fine. we go back to the 220 step who does a full rad onc residency and passes all their boards. you think they can't contour a prostate? I'm sure you want all your prostate patients treated at the quartenary academic center too.

pick whatever characteristic you want to pick (no research, no score, no experience in med school, no aways). we are talking about a minority of grads, regardless, in terms of Soap.
Never said that.... But then again I'm not a PD on Twitter trying to fluff up the current and recent crop of applicants as some of the best and most passionate ever.

If they can pass boards, they are good to go. And orals are one exam that will truly separate the wheat from the chaff imo and i don't see it going anywhere, unlike what happened in radiology
 
This is insane.

If you can get through medical school, pass your steps, and care about doing a good job, that’s literally all you need. There are “peak RO” docs that are terrible and pre-Peak era ones that changed the world. Eek, I wonder if other “peak” era people think like that.
Sure, then what is giving rise to tweets like this?

 
This tweet is obviously a lie. Credentials of RadOnc applicants have dropped like a rock. I doubt were are at the bottom yet.
 
This tweet is obviously a lie. Credentials of RadOnc applicants have dropped like a rock. I doubt were are at the bottom yet.

It’s not a lie. A lie would be saying they’re as good as they’ve ever been stats wise.

The reason a tweet like this even exists is the baseline assumption as has been discussed here that anyone matching into rad onc now is terrible, which is an embarrassingly bad take.
 
Also he’s at Michigan, a great department that is likely interviewing great candidates.

I am sure a terrible program will match not so hot people, on paper.
 
The field isn’t hard to master. We didn’t need 260s and letters from “famous people” or a bunch of trash research. They just made you think you needed it to be good at this job. You need some bit of dedication and willingness to read on your own and an inherent desire to take care of cancer patients. I don’t know how any of the prior metrics predict for that.
This is, obviously, the truth. I keep thinking about where we went wrong.

There was this thread which was re-Tweeted recently about the rise of the Academic Medical Center over the last 20-30 years, which helps explain some of it, I think.

The way medicine was painted to me - the world I thought I was signing up for - back when I was considering getting into this whole doctor thing:

Medical schools and their associated education/training programs were bastions of truth and knowledge to benefit mankind. They were usually in urban areas serving large populations and also took complicated referrals from far-flung geographies. Because of this, the faculty who chose to work in academia had the ability to specialize in very obscure things (both clinically and at the bench), with financial and cultural support to advance the understanding and treatment of their slice of medicine. Medical students and residents went to these schools and hospitals to study with these people and see these patients, but America is a large country and the population is spread out. The majority of doctors will not (and cannot) be hyper-specialized (either on a particular facet of a disease, or be the physician-scientist ideal, etc).

As always, money twisted everything. Institutions did the math and saw that the revenue possibility from the clinical activities of the faculty were tremendous. Educating medical students generates almost no revenue (other than their tuition), and faculty were not rewarded for it.

Simultaneously, specialties become "competitive" through their perceived money and lifestyle. You have to have measurable differences between people to decide competitiveness, preferably, easy-to-measure metrics. Empathy and thoughtfulness are very difficult to measure; Step 1 scores and number of publications are very easy to measure. Humans are lazy - we picked numbers.

In the early 2000s, these things converged rapidly in Radiation Oncology. This specialty always had the potential for a "better" lifestyle with no inpatient service, and IMRT made the gold rain down (though, as is occasionally mentioned, the true gold was back in the 20 years after Medicare came out, but that's a different story).

We had academic RadOnc faculty, from an era without the internet and, if we're being honest, less medical knowledge overall, who still thought the traditional Flexner ideals were in play, being asked to pick from "top" medical students (as defined by lazy metrics based on test taking ability). These faculty were increasingly rewarded for their ability to generate RVUs, not teach the next generation. However, because the majority of kids entering the specialty were the ones who could memorize books the best, the lack of teaching was glossed over by the sheer skill (and willingness) of residents to teach themselves.

The Boomer RadOncs patted themselves on their back for how elite and hard the specialty was, as this must be a reflection on how elite and special they themselves were. When they trained, "the best" doctors had the most archaic, useless minutiae memorized - aided, in no small part, from an era when academic faculty occasionally remembered to teach. Everyone convinced themselves Radiation Oncology was SO HARD and only THE BRIGHTEST MINDS could handle it, and this was perpetuated with FOUR board exams of primarily trivia which got more and more difficult every year. Amdur and Lee very succinctly demonstrate the issue with the exams and how we're defining "quality", "competitive", etc:

1643564833006.png


This data is ridiculous - the mean Step 1 score in 2016 was 247, an almost 20-point improvement compared to 2005 and significantly above the national average, but the board exam rates were virtually unchanged? How does that make sense???

Let's not forget the insane growth of knowledge and treatments in Oncology, as demonstrated by the fact that the NCCN guidelines, from the inception in 1996 to 2019, had a three-thousand and fifty seven percent increase in the number of references, and a three hundred and seventy percent increase in the number of decision paths.

1643565128588.png


Even the "lowest quality" Radiation Oncologist in 2020 (quality lazily defined by test scores), who was able to pass all four board exams, needed to know SIGNIFICANTLY more information than the "highest quality" Radiation Oncologist in 1996.

The TL;DR is this: the hubris in this specialty is ASTOUNDING, but it's obvious how we got here.

There will always be a need for genius-level savants cloistered away in Ivory Towers, advancing medicine for humanity. This is true for every specialty.

The majority of us, however, will be much more general in nature, and have absolutely no need to memorize the proteins involved in the signaling pathway for NHEJ, or the median 5-year OS for Stage III Merkel cell - especially when we carry small devices in our pockets which can literally access the entirety of medical knowledge from anywhere.

We draw circles in MS Paint-level software, and make sure the computer simulation of the theoretically most-likely dose cloud doesn't violate constraints which may or may not be made up, and assume that the computer was mostly right. Sometimes we give Flomax before letting MedOnc follow the patients.

We're a specialty that should absolutely value "soft" skills like compassion and communication over Step 1 scores.

(and before anyone gets upset - yes, I am making simple, broad statements about our day-to-day for comedic effect)

(also, I don't want to hear anyone comparing us to the surgeons. We do everything in a computer. Our contouring comes with an eraser tool, for God's sake. A scalpel doesn't come with an eraser)
 
agree with you fully. would just add one thing.

'The Boomer RadOncs patted themselves on their back for how elite and hard the specialty was, as this must be a reflection on how elite and special they themselves were.'

I think my point/issue is that non-boomer, Gen X/older millenial rad oncs are ALSO sitting around patting themselves about how much better they are than someone entering the field now. when in fact the step score in 2016 was 20 points higher than 2005, if they want to be talking step scores.

nice post.
 
agree with you fully. would just add one thing.

'The Boomer RadOncs patted themselves on their back for how elite and hard the specialty was, as this must be a reflection on how elite and special they themselves were.'

I think my point/issue is that non-boomer, Gen X/older millenial rad oncs are ALSO sitting around patting themselves about how much better they are than someone entering the field now. when in fact the step score in 2016 was 20 points higher than 2005, if they want to be talking step scores.

nice post.
Yeah I agree, obviously, but I do like the GERO designation (haha).

For me, as I'm sure can be said for most of us who Matched over the last 15-20 years, it's a little frustrating to see all these Tweets about how "amazing" the current applicants are, simply because we know the history.

These are generally the same people who were running the residency show 10 years ago.

We all know what they considered "amazing" back then.

While I'm strongly in favor of moving away from tests and grades in our consideration of who is going to be a "quality" doctor, it's frustrating to watch the goalposts shift not because the leadership wanted it to, but because the landscape around them changed and they HAD to.

I can only speak for myself, but I know what my application was, I know who said what to me about it. The hypocrisy of the academicians is what bothers me, independent of the conversation about how we should measure the quality of a doctor.

I'm in favor of reducing our dependence on multiple choice tests, and against RadOnc leadership pretend like "dedication" and "empathy" are what they've cared about all along.
 
so CVS is getting in the Rad Onc game? Former Rad Onc PD at UPENN, now swimming with the fishies over at CVS!

it's a wild world folks

View attachment 349313
Coming to a city near you, Upenn/CVS single room proton centres to treat your bone met with 8x1 to spare bone marrow. Chinese involved? Choose wisely folks! If its what you say I love it!!
 
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Coming to a city near you, Upenn/CVS single room proton centres to treat your bone met with 8x1 to spare bone marrow. Chinese involved? Choose wisely folks! If its what you say I love it!!
Great, with the hot mess CVS is these days, will it just be half-stocked shelves, robot checkouts which barely work, a single pharmacist trying to fill 475 prescriptions a day, and a single-gantry proton vault next to their little immunization booth with a line out the door into the Dunkin Donuts' parking lot next door?

Should I email my application, is there a portal of some sort, or...?
 
Great, with the hot mess CVS is these days, will it just be half-stocked shelves, robot checkouts which barely work, a single pharmacist trying to fill 475 prescriptions a day, and a single-gantry proton vault next to their little immunization booth with a line out the door into the Dunkin Donuts' parking lot next door?

Should I email my application, is there a portal of some sort, or...?
Right now portal is only invitation only, gotta know someone, network harder. Sorry bro!
 
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