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I don't know enough about MRLinac to comment about that format, but I think physicists in general think of PTV as being dictated by uncertainties in target localization and even uncertainties in XRT delivery. These uncertainties will never be zero (even your Winston-Lutz doesn't show zero) so I get why physicists won't go there.

I think we (the docs) are more and more thinking of PTVs as being a measure of how important Dmin is, and in truth, this may not be that important. There is minimal literature on impact of Dmin on tumor control and some modalities (brachy) may have pretty damn small Dmin with good outcomes.

Below is study on impact of Dmin on GTV in NP carcinoma. They saw a correlation when Dmin dropped below 77% of prescribed dose. Depending on your planning, 77% of your peripheral planned dose may be ~3mm away.

If ct ctv overestimates prostate by 30% why add 4 mm margin as opposed to 2?
 
If ct ctv overestimates prostate by 30% why add 4 mm margin as opposed to 2
I thought CT based CTV overestimated prostate because it is hard to delineate prostate relative to levator muscles as well as the apex of prostate? MRI fusion for me just helps interpret the CT better, it doesn't show a smaller prostate and if it did, I wouldn't believe it. The CT still represents the dosimetric target, not the MRI, which I contend is still subject to distortions and does not represent 3D space to the same fidelity as CT.

I'm still thinking conservatively about PTV expansions (by conservatively, I mean not too small) because it takes at least a decade to figure out if you are undertreating the prostate cancer.
 
This is a complicated issue. Bear with me, this is going to be a long post.

For starters, the trial specifics have been published before (Free access):

1. CTV-contouring.
CTV-Contouring was not the same in both arms. Yes, CTV-contouring, it's unbelievable, but sadly true!
From the manuscript:
"A pelvic CT without contrast will be performed for radiotherapy simulation (i.e., treatment planning CT) with a slice thickness of 1.5 mm. For patients enrolled on the MRI-guided SBRT arm, an additional MRI will be obtained in the treatment position on the MRI-guided LINAC."
I have no idea why they did that in the trial. I thought acquiring a planning MRI for prostate RT is standard of care. We do it for 20 x 3 Gy in all patients, I would certainly do it for CBCT-based SBRT, and I have no idea whey they decided not to do it in the CBCT-arm of this trial.
Can anyone think of any reason?

2. Margins.
2mm for MRI-arm, 4mm for CBCT-arm.
From the manuscript:
"We adopted a smaller margin of 2 mm for the MRI-guided arm given its ability for real-time tracking and superior prostatic anatomy visualization (i.e., greater contour certainty), with little concerns of marginal misses related to excess motion or undercontouring."
...
"Implanted fiducial markers are routinely used to assist with motion management when treating prostate cancer patients with any form of external radiotherapy, including SBRT. These will be considered required for patients treated with CT-guided SBRT except in cases where a medical contraindication is present, as is consistent with our internal SBRT protocol."
...
"Gating-based treatment, with gating based on the imaged location of the prostate organ or on rectal distention, can be employed at the discretion of the treating physician."


They state two reasons for the reduced margins:
a) Excess motion.
Like many of you noted, excess motion in the CBCT-arm could have been negated by using non-MRI based tools, such as Calypso, Cyberknife, Novalis (or even perhaps the "poor (wo)man's" mid treatment CBCT/kV-image between arcs). Calypso offers real time motion management, Cyberknife and Novalis offer frequent management, the mid-treatment CBCT/kV-image offers the least possibilities. There is no mention in the paper if motion management was allowed in the CBCT-arm, although even the most basic motion management would have been possible with the implanted fiducials. There is also no mention of recommendations on when treatment was stopped in the MRI-arm, in case motion was detected. In theory, one would have to interrupt treatment, once the prostate moved 3mm, since parts of the CTV would then be underdosed. Did they do that? Noone knows.
b) Undercontouring.
I am not sure if they mean by that the CTV-contouring, since the MRI-guided arm only had initial MRI-assisted CTV-contouring or they mean identifying the prostate contour on the treatment-MRI more precisely than the prostate contour on the CBCT. I do not feel that this is a valid argument in the later case, since with fiducials implanted in the CBCT-arm patients, you do not really need to visualize the prostate, you can simply match to the implanted fiducials. Or am I missing something else?

3. Adaptive planning.
From the manuscript:
"If deemed necessary, online adaptive planning will be performed, wherein the planning GTVs, CTVs, and OARs are deformably transferred to the online MR images via registration, and the treatment plan is reoptimized to meet or exceed the original planning goals."
So, the MRI-guided treatment may lead to better organ sparing and target converage through adaptive planning. This is excellent and one of the main specialties of MRI-treatment, but is also available now on Varian's Ethos, CBCT-based. I am not aware of any comparative studies.

4. Physician and patient biases
The primary endpoint was "acute grade ≥ 2 GU physician-reported toxicity,, as assessed by the CTCAE version 4.03 scale".
Neither physicians, nor patients were blinded. It's impossible to blind the patients. However, one could indeed have blinded the ones that scored toxicity. One could have utilized blinded study nurses, for instance, that would have scored for acute toxicity.
There is no item such as "acute grade ≥ 2 GU toxicity" in CTCAE 4.03, so I presume they mean a combined endpoint of several CTCAE 4.03 endpoints, including urinary urgency, urinary tract obstruction, urinary frequency. The problem is that many of those automatically are grade 2 as soon as medication is prescribed. And who is prescribing medication (for instance Flomax)? The unblinded physician...

Thus there are 6 potential points that may have impacted the primary endpoint of the trial:
1. CTV-contouring
2. Margins
3. Adaptive planning
4. Motion management
5. Patient bias
6. Physician bias

Saying that treating on the MRI-Linac was the crucial factor, appears to me quite the stretch.

A big benefit is likely due to adaptive planning leading to changing the shape of the dose cloud. I'd be interested to read how many of the MRI patients underwent daily adaptation for their SBRT.
 
Actually, here's one.

The primary endpoint is rather ...amusing. The trial wants to show that MR-Linac treatment will reduce acute grade >1 GU toxicity by 14%.

I find no words to stress out the vast importance of this endpoint. 😛 😛 😛

P.S. Elementaryschooleconomics: This meme wants to find its way to the meme-collection thread
Hey @Palex80 -

Where did you get grade 1 GU toxicity ?
I don’t see that anywhere.

Despite criticisms of study, mockery is unwarranted if what you’re saying is incorrect.
 
Hey @Palex80 -

Where did you get grade 1 GU toxicity ?
I don’t see that anywhere.

Despite criticisms of study, mockery is unwarranted if what you’re saying is incorrect.
From the paper describing the trial specifics.

Objectives
The primary objective of this study will be to determine whether MRI-guided SBRT can lead to a 14% absolute reduction in the cumulative incidence of acute physician-scored ≥2 GU toxicity (defined by the CTCAE version 4.03) when compared to a rate of 29% in CT-guided SBRT group, corresponding to a relative risk reduction of 48%.


They typed ≥2 and I typed >1, maybe you missed the difference there. No mockery.
Here's what I typed: "The trial wants to show that MR-Linac treatment will reduce acute grade >1 GU toxicity by 14%."

Anyways, "acute grade >1 GU toxicity" is the same as "acute grade ≥2 GU toxicity"
, since there is nothing between grade 1 and grade 2 toxicity (there's no grade 1.5 toxicity, it's either grade 1 or grade 2).

I hope this is not one of this US-European things again... One does use both > and in a differential manner in the US, right?
 
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A big benefit is likely due to adaptive planning leading to changing the shape of the dose cloud. I'd be interested to read how many of the MRI patients underwent daily adaptation for their SBRT.

I do not think they adapted?
 
I do not think they adapted?
They did describe the option to adapt in the manuscript describing the trial. But only in the MRI arm.
"If deemed necessary, online adaptive planning will be performed, wherein the planning GTVs, CTVs, and OARs are deformably transferred to the online MR images via registration, and the treatment plan is reoptimized to meet or exceed the original planning goals."
 
They did describe the option to adapt in the manuscript describing the trial. But only in the MRI arm.
"If deemed necessary, online adaptive planning will be performed, wherein the planning GTVs, CTVs, and OARs are deformably transferred to the online MR images via registration, and the treatment plan is reoptimized to meet or exceed the original planning goals."
They didn’t adapt much.

Amar may come on to do a little Q/A or just post some responses. Stay tuned!
 
Prostate people: The people who do MRI in treatment position with their CT and find the prostate is “smaller”. So what happens then? Do you believe it or not? I feel like i saw a lot of “i dont’t believe it” and still go off CT. So isnt this boomer “you dont want to miss” mentality? What is the point of MRI if you “dont believe it”
 
Prostate people: The people who do MRI in treatment position with their CT and find the prostate is “smaller”. So what happens then? Do you believe it or not? I feel like i saw a lot of “i dont’t believe it” and still go off CT. So isnt this boomer “you dont want to miss” mentality? What is the point of MRI if you “dont believe it”

The prostate is definitely smaller than it looks like on CT. If you have an MRI, you only contour what you see on MRI.

I’ve never heard the ‘I don’t believe it’ and if you have seen it then that’s big time boomer material
 
Prostate people: The people who do MRI in treatment position with their CT and find the prostate is “smaller”. So what happens then? Do you believe it or not? I feel like i saw a lot of “i dont’t believe it” and still go off CT. So isnt this boomer “you dont want to miss” mentality? What is the point of MRI if you “dont believe it”

I have been fortunate to have MR fusion for more than 2 decades. This old paper is basically consistent with my experience in that the prostate is "overestimated" on CT compared with MR and usually in the same areas (base and apex). Several similar papers with postimplant dosimetry find the same thing


Bill McLaughlin's paper above provides some nice examples and how MR helps.

For contouring I basically put the MR volume on the CT.
 
I thought CT based CTV overestimated prostate because it is hard to delineate prostate relative to levator muscles as well as the apex of prostate? MRI fusion for me just helps interpret the CT better, it doesn't show a smaller prostate and if it did, I wouldn't believe it. The CT still represents the dosimetric target, not the MRI, which I contend is still subject to distortions and does not represent 3D space to the same fidelity as CT.
The prostate is definitely smaller than it looks like on CT. If you have an MRI, you only contour what you see on MRI.
I have been fortunate to have MR fusion for more than 2 decades. This old paper is basically consistent with my experience in that the prostate is "overestimated" on CT compared with MR and usually in the same areas (base and apex). Several similar papers with postimplant dosimetry find the same thing
MRI definitely makes the prostate appear smaller than CT. On CT it's just impossible to see the surrounding fasciae and venous plexuses and muscles like the sphincter urethrae as separate from the prostate. A more interesting question though is: is CT "over-contouring" LC improving vs MRI "proper contouring"? No one knows AFAIK. I will say after you do a lot of MRI/CT fusions, even without an MRI, you will contour the prostate a touch smaller on CT. It's like the Neo-and-spoon effect; you can't unsee the MRIs in your head from previous patients.
Anyways, "acute grade >1 GU toxicity" is the same as "acute grade ≥2 GU toxicity", since there is nothing between grade 1 and grade 2 toxicity (there's no grade 1.5 toxicity, it's either grade 1 or grade 2).
Breast cancers that are ≥2cm in size can occasionally be T1, but a breast cancer that's >2cm never is!
 
a as
This is a complicated issue. Bear with me, this is going to be a long post.

For starters, the trial specifics have been published before (Free access):

1. CTV-contouring.
CTV-Contouring was not the same in both arms. Yes, CTV-contouring, it's unbelievable, but sadly true!
From the manuscript:
"A pelvic CT without contrast will be performed for radiotherapy simulation (i.e., treatment planning CT) with a slice thickness of 1.5 mm. For patients enrolled on the MRI-guided SBRT arm, an additional MRI will be obtained in the treatment position on the MRI-guided LINAC."
I have no idea why they did that in the trial. I thought acquiring a planning MRI for prostate RT is standard of care. We do it for 20 x 3 Gy in all patients, I would certainly do it for CBCT-based SBRT, and I have no idea whey they decided not to do it in the CBCT-arm of this trial.
Can anyone think of any reason?

2. Margins.
2mm for MRI-arm, 4mm for CBCT-arm.
From the manuscript:
"We adopted a smaller margin of 2 mm for the MRI-guided arm given its ability for real-time tracking and superior prostatic anatomy visualization (i.e., greater contour certainty), with little concerns of marginal misses related to excess motion or undercontouring."
...
"Implanted fiducial markers are routinely used to assist with motion management when treating prostate cancer patients with any form of external radiotherapy, including SBRT. These will be considered required for patients treated with CT-guided SBRT except in cases where a medical contraindication is present, as is consistent with our internal SBRT protocol."
...
"Gating-based treatment, with gating based on the imaged location of the prostate organ or on rectal distention, can be employed at the discretion of the treating physician."


They state two reasons for the reduced margins:
a) Excess motion.
Like many of you noted, excess motion in the CBCT-arm could have been negated by using non-MRI based tools, such as Calypso, Cyberknife, Novalis (or even perhaps the "poor (wo)man's" mid treatment CBCT/kV-image between arcs). Calypso offers real time motion management, Cyberknife and Novalis offer frequent management, the mid-treatment CBCT/kV-image offers the least possibilities. There is no mention in the paper if motion management was allowed in the CBCT-arm, although even the most basic motion management would have been possible with the implanted fiducials. There is also no mention of recommendations on when treatment was stopped in the MRI-arm, in case motion was detected. In theory, one would have to interrupt treatment, once the prostate moved 3mm, since parts of the CTV would then be underdosed. Did they do that? Noone knows.
b) Undercontouring.
I am not sure if they mean by that the CTV-contouring, since the MRI-guided arm only had initial MRI-assisted CTV-contouring or they mean identifying the prostate contour on the treatment-MRI more precisely than the prostate contour on the CBCT. I do not feel that this is a valid argument in the later case, since with fiducials implanted in the CBCT-arm patients, you do not really need to visualize the prostate, you can simply match to the implanted fiducials. Or am I missing something else?

3. Adaptive planning.
From the manuscript:
"If deemed necessary, online adaptive planning will be performed, wherein the planning GTVs, CTVs, and OARs are deformably transferred to the online MR images via registration, and the treatment plan is reoptimized to meet or exceed the original planning goals."
So, the MRI-guided treatment may lead to better organ sparing and target converage through adaptive planning. This is excellent and one of the main specialties of MRI-treatment, but is also available now on Varian's Ethos, CBCT-based. I am not aware of any comparative studies.

4. Physician and patient biases
The primary endpoint was "acute grade ≥ 2 GU physician-reported toxicity,, as assessed by the CTCAE version 4.03 scale".
Neither physicians, nor patients were blinded. It's impossible to blind the patients. However, one could indeed have blinded the ones that scored toxicity. One could have utilized blinded study nurses, for instance, that would have scored for acute toxicity.
There is no item such as "acute grade ≥ 2 GU toxicity" in CTCAE 4.03, so I presume they mean a combined endpoint of several CTCAE 4.03 endpoints, including urinary urgency, urinary tract obstruction, urinary frequency. The problem is that many of those automatically are grade 2 as soon as medication is prescribed. And who is prescribing medication (for instance Flomax)? The unblinded physician...

Thus there are 6 potential points that may have impacted the primary endpoint of the trial:
1. CTV-contouring
2. Margins
3. Adaptive planning
4. Motion management
5. Patient bias
6. Physician bias

Saying that treating on the MRI-Linac was the crucial factor, appears to me quite the stretch.
So to clarify, the ctv on the linac treated pts was delineated without a fused mri? To start with it is going to be 30% larger than mri delineated ctv and then the linac ctv will be expanded by 4mm vs 2 mm?
 
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So to clarify, the ctv on the linac treated pts was delineated without a fused mri? To start with it is going to be 30% larger than mri delineated ctv and then the linac ctv will be expanded by 4mm vs 2 mm?
Based on personal communication, they did get MRIs and fused to CT for that arm.
 
Based on personal communication, they did get MRIs and fused to CT for that arm.
Ok, so then they will justify adding extra margin for fusion error? (But buying an mri sim is still 1/10 the price of an mri linac and could serve as a backup for radiology)
 
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The prostate is definitely smaller than it looks like on CT. If you have an MRI, you only contour what you see on MRI.

I’ve never heard the ‘I don’t believe it’ and if you have seen it then that’s big time boomer material
When I fuse the MRI for prostate, I focus on the apex for alignment, because this is where I get confused on CT. I can also trim areas of vasculature and the end result is a smaller volume. However, the fusion is rarely perfect throughout the whole prostate and there are slices where I am very confident of the anatomy and I include what I know is prostate on CT even if it is beyond the MRI volume. While the prostate is not a large organ, geometric distortion does occur with MRI and this is very clear any time you do a whole brain fusion. (Try getting every part of the calvarium aligned, over this type of dimension several mm distortion is possible).

I'll even link one of those pilloried 2005 papers. Nice graphs quantifying geometric distortions. Remember, you are backing out structural information from the MRI, not directly scattering radiation.


MRI is very helpful, but I don't think anyone should ignore the CT information.

Sometimes boomers just understand principles.
 
This is Amar Kishan, the PI of the MIRAGE trial. Simul and I discussed some of this thread offline, and he suggested I pop in here to present my take on the trial, which I will do.

(1) What's in a PTV? Setup uncertainty + motion management. Let's not forget the first point. Contouring on an MRI has been shown to, by itself, lead to decreased treatment volumes. For instance, Impact of magnetic resonance imaging on computed tomography-based treatment planning and acute toxicity for prostate cancer patients treated with intensity modulated radiation therapy - PubMed Comparison of prostate delineation on multimodality imaging for MR-guided radiotherapy - PubMed. This is using an MRI-CT fusion, which has itself some residual uncertainty (let's say even 1 mm, though some say 1-2 mm). With a true MRgRT system, you are contouring directly on the MRI and can eliminate that uncertainty in your PTV formulation. Because it has apparently been a point of confusion, I will clarify: we did use MRI fusion on the CT arm. The lines in the protocol about obtaining a treatment planning MRI in the treatment planning position for the MRI arm are referring to obtaining a simulation on the MRgRT machine itself (here, the MRIdian).

(2) Then, there is the real-time tracking. I will push back strongly on the notion that intrafraction motion has been required with "CT-guided SBRT". VMAT, without intrafraction monitoring, is considered standard of care and was allowed on PACE-B and NRG GU-005. These protocols both specifically state that, for rapid treatment delivery, intrafraction monitoring is not required. Fiducials weren’t even required on PACE-B, though we did require them on MIRAGE. The 4 mm isotropic margin was based on data and a rigorous analysis of shifts from when we did do intrafraction monitoring during VMAT, after each half-arc (Clinical Assessment of Prostate Displacement and Planning Target Volume Margins for Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy of Prostate Cancer - PubMed). We used the van Herk formulation to estimate what margins would be necessary to encompass the envelope of motion just during one half-arc. For motion alone, we are looking at ~3 mm margins in the A/P and S/I planes. These margins are not only within bounds for PACE-B and NRG GU-005 but in fact are smaller than the 5 mm margins that are often quoted.

(3) On the MRI arm, patients are getting a MRI 4 times per second for tracking. If the prostate moves out of the gating window, there is an automatic beam hold. If the beam hold is >120 seconds, a manual restart is required. Because of that degree of intrafraction monitoring, I was comfortable reducing the PTV margin all the way down to 2 mm on this arm.

(4) And it unfortunately has to be said explicitly that other technologies for intrafraction monitoring have been around for many years, and could have been studied in a RCT at any point. But those trials weren't done. They aren’t just not planned now, they have not been done in the past 20 years. This trial took 18 months to run once opened, and was completely entirely during a pandemic. I opened it as soon as we obtained the device and before launching prostate SBRT on it. So to now state "well I can do the same with xx" – well, feel free to state that, but you don’t have the same level of evidence as what MIRAGE has shown. Unless, we are now willing to accept single arm studies as proof? Or dosimetric planning studies?

(5) Moreover, there is the question of the urethra. It is often delineated on an MRI-CT fusion. This again is standard – suggested on PACE-B and NRG GU-005. Yet, there are uncertainties in any MRI-CT fusion. Would it not be better to delineate on the simulation image itself? This is do-able on the MRI arm. There are specific sequences that may optimize this, which we have studied (Evaluation of T2-Weighted MRI for Visualization and Sparing of Urethra with MR-Guided Radiation Therapy (MRgRT) On-Board MRI - PubMed). The constraints for the urethra were identical on both arms.

(6) Now, regarding adapting – the trial was written to allow for this. But before we proceeded with the trial, we decided to instead make it cleaner and focus on aggressive margin reduction as the “intervention”. Thus, no patients on the MRI arm received adaptive radiotherapy.

(7) Now finally, the endpoint. Yes, acute GU grade ≥2 toxicity. What causes this toxicity? Obviously, dose to the relevant organs at risk (which, I would point out, are not settled—we assume the urethra, bladder neck/trigone, parts of bladder wall). Reducing the dose in the early time frame may, or may not, lead to reduced long-term toxicity. I would argue a 20% absolute reduction in grade ≥2 GU toxicity and >10% absolute reduction grade ≥2 GI toxicity is something most people would otherwise celebrate, except here it is tied to a technology that is not yet widely available. Besides, if you are proposing an alternative endpoint, please back it up. What would the power calculation be for reduction of late toxicity? Is it possible in a single-center setting, without large funding (note: this trial was not funded by an industrial vendor)? What would your model for launching that trial be, and seeing it through to accrual?

Best,

Amar

(I am afraid I don’t have the bandwidth to regularly check back on this – I am not hard to find, please reach out directly with further concerns/questions)
 
Very nice that you clarified these points, thank you!

One minor suggestion in order to clarify the issue with contouring on MRI vs. MRI-CT-fused images, when you are writing the manuscript:
You could analyze the sizes of all CTVs (median/range) contoured in both trial arms. That would rule out any concerns that the PTV in the CBCT-arm may have been larger not only because of the larger CTV-PTV-margin, but due to differences in CTV-contouring between the two trial arms.
 
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When I fuse the MRI for prostate, I focus on the apex for alignment, because this is where I get confused on CT. I can also trim areas of vasculature and the end result is a smaller volume. However, the fusion is rarely perfect throughout the whole prostate and there are slices where I am very confident of the anatomy and I include what I know is prostate on CT even if it is beyond the MRI volume. While the prostate is not a large organ, geometric distortion does occur with MRI and this is very clear any time you do a whole brain fusion. (Try getting every part of the calvarium aligned, over this type of dimension several mm distortion is possible).

I'll even link one of those pilloried 2005 papers. Nice graphs quantifying geometric distortions. Remember, you are backing out structural information from the MRI, not directly scattering radiation.


MRI is very helpful, but I don't think anyone should ignore the CT information.

Sometimes boomers just understand principles.
Hey guys. Guess what. MRI and CT fusion is almost as perfect as possible with implanted fiducials (you have to tweak the MRI sequence a bit but they show up nicely when you do)… and the geometric and 3D distortion of MRI must be a mm or less ‘cause you always get the MRI “points” to superimpose on the CT “points”

🙂
 
I would add that especially for non-sbrt cases, the standard PTV we use more than covers any concern for fusion error, let's be totally honest.
 
Hey guys. Guess what. MRI and CT fusion is almost as perfect as possible with implanted fiducials (you have to tweak the MRI sequence a bit but they show up nicely when you do)… and the geometric and 3D distortion of MRI must be a mm or less ‘cause you always get the MRI “points” to superimpose on the CT “points”

🙂

what sequence do you like on the MRI to see the fiducials best? I've played around with this and haven't been as happy as I'd like with it.
 
Hey guys. Guess what. MRI and CT fusion is almost as perfect as possible with implanted fiducials (you have to tweak the MRI sequence a bit but they show up nicely when you do)… and the geometric and 3D distortion of MRI must be a mm or less ‘cause you always get the MRI “points” to superimpose on the CT “points”

🙂
Yip, use star sequences. Number of papers on this. Can also use mri compatible fiducials or spend 1 million dollars on an mri sim. T2 Star-weighted Angiography (SWAN) Allows to Concomitantly Assess the Prostate Contour While Detecting Fiducials Before MR-based Intensity-modulated Radiation Therapy in Prostate Carcinoma - PubMed
 
and the geometric and 3D distortion of MRI must be a mm or less ‘cause you always get the MRI “points” to superimpose on the CT “points”
It's all good. I will argue that the uncertainty in terms of real position is pretty much never less than 2mm (just put your fingers 2mm apart) but that penumbra makes uncertainties this small usually meaningless in terms of clinical outcomes.

the standard PTV we use more than covers any concern for fusion error, let's be totally honest.
This is definitely true but errors tend to compound. A 4mm PTV expansion that reasonably accounts for daily positioning error and most intrafraction motion may now be functionally a 2mm expansion on the apex if we contour wrong.
 
When I fuse the MRI for prostate, I focus on the apex for alignment, because this is where I get confused on CT. I can also trim areas of vasculature and the end result is a smaller volume. However, the fusion is rarely perfect throughout the whole prostate and there are slices where I am very confident of the anatomy and I include what I know is prostate on CT even if it is beyond the MRI volume. While the prostate is not a large organ, geometric distortion does occur with MRI and this is very clear any time you do a whole brain fusion. (Try getting every part of the calvarium aligned, over this type of dimension several mm distortion is possible).

I'll even link one of those pilloried 2005 papers. Nice graphs quantifying geometric distortions. Remember, you are backing out structural information from the MRI, not directly scattering radiation.


MRI is very helpful, but I don't think anyone should ignore the CT information.

Sometimes boomers just understand principles.
My comment is somewhat tongue in cheek. Maybe the boomers are onto something!. Having looked at many MRI sims in residency for prostate, we used information for both and there is absolutely geometric distortion. The MRI sim is not always exact. Bladder may be more full or the pelvic bones might be slightly misaligned. So one ends up using both and in some cases “not believing” what one sees. I always found MRI sim very helpful for prostate which is crazy to think back on how we did it without it. You just get used to technology but in the end the patient will do great MRI or not, fiducials or not. Its prostate cancer folks!
 
My comment is somewhat tongue in cheek. Maybe the boomers are onto something!. Having looked at many MRI sims in residency for prostate, we used information for both and there is absolutely geometric distortion. The MRI sim is not always exact. Bladder may be more full or the pelvic bones might be slightly misaligned. So one ends up using both and in some cases “not believing” what one sees. I always found MRI sim very helpful for prostate which is crazy to think back on how we did it without it. You just get used to technology but in the end the patient will do great MRI or not, fiducials or not. Its prostate cancer folks!
Breast and prostate... rank #1 and 2 as the worst.
 
Rad Onc had over 10 years to drop their margins to 2mm with CBCT or fiducial-based guidance prostate SBRT but did not because of the uncertainties that is factored into PTV expansion. Now there is a technology that allows confidence to drop that margin and a lot of posts here are now implying that you can just easily change and do the same with CBCT/fiducials.

If I was in a two-wheel drive car with normal tires driving in a snow-covered road and I see an AWD car with snow tires blow past me, my rational brain wouldn't think, hey, I can easily do the same and press down on the accelerator....
 
I am worried. I do prostate SBRT without intrafraction monitoring and 3-4 mm margins. 10-20% of the time these patients need to temporarily use Flomax. Should I refer these patients to UCLA?
Perhaps do a RR to see what treatment and patient-specific factors put them at highest risk for needing flomax. Probably good to involve exome sequencing. Then you might know which 10-20% to send out.
 
Wondering what the de-facto dose rate was in the MRI vs CBCT arms of the above trial. I just don't believe a 2mm margin reduction actually impacts toxicity very much. I would be more likely to believe that radiation given over 20 minutes is different than radiation over 2 minutes.

To be honest, I'd need better stats to believe any of it.

An old school paper looking at impact of margin reduction from 10mm to 5mm!

 
Rad Onc had over 10 years to drop their margins to 2mm with CBCT or fiducial-based guidance prostate SBRT but did not because of the uncertainties that is factored into PTV expansion. Now there is a technology that allows confidence to drop that margin and a lot of posts here are now implying that you can just easily change and do the same with CBCT/fiducials.

If I was in a two-wheel drive car with normal tires driving in a snow-covered road and I see an AWD car with snow tires blow past me, my rational brain wouldn't think, hey, I can easily do the same and press down on the accelerator....
Ha! But "they" pulled a 4mm->2mm margin drop completely out of their anorectum. I guess that's OK. But there's very good data IMHO that fiducials (sans CBCT no less) allow for ~2mm PTV margins when random and systematic positioning error is robustly studied. You can't REALLY know what margins an IGRT tech "allows" until you: 1) Do many initial shift analyses, 2) Repeat shift analyses for residual error(s) after the initial, and 3) monitor for "drift" during tx in some fashion (real-time of some sort, or measure drift once near or at the end of the fraction).

We have had a very good FWD car with snow tires with fiducials and MRI fusion and X-rays whether CT or kV plain films. Do we clinically need the AWD of MRI?
 
Wondering what the de-facto dose rate was in the MRI vs CBCT arms of the above trial. I just don't believe a 2mm margin reduction actually impacts toxicity very much. I would be more likely to believe that radiation given over 20 minutes is different than radiation over 2 minutes.

To be honest, I'd need better stats to believe any of it.

An old school paper looking at impact of margin reduction from 10mm to 5mm!

US is not good IGRT. Because of the systematic/random error associated w/ US IGRT, bigger PTV margins than setting up to skin marks are needed. Thus the benefits of a 5mm margin drop here were "swallowed" by the crapiness of the IGRT technique. (OR... maybe margin reduction doesn't matter.) But I think we have some other studies/experiences we can point to where 5mm (or less) margin reductions yield measurable toxicity differences.
 
Ha! But "they" pulled a 4mm->2mm margin drop completely out of their anorectum. I guess that's OK. But there's very good data IMHO that fiducials (sans CBCT no less) allow for ~2mm PTV margins when random and systematic positioning error is robustly studied. You can't REALLY know what margins an IGRT tech "allows" until you: 1) Do many initial shift analyses, 2) Repeat shift analyses for residual error(s) after the initial, and 3) monitor for "drift" during tx in some fashion (real-time of some sort, or measure drift once near or at the end of the fraction).

We have had a very good FWD car with snow tires with fiducials and MRI fusion and X-rays whether CT or kV plain films. Do we clinically need the AWD of MRI?
Actually the data on awd being better for snow seems to be quite controversial when you google it.
 
US is not good IGRT. Because of the systematic/random error associated w/ US IGRT, bigger PTV margins than setting up to skin marks are needed. Thus the benefits of a 5mm margin drop here were "swallowed" by the crapiness of the IGRT technique. (OR... maybe margin reduction doesn't matter.) But I think we have some other studies/experiences we can point to where 5mm (or less) margin reductions yield measurable toxicity differences.
You're right, the comparison is not good. There are multiple mechanisms where small reductions of volume getting stereotactic doses could impact acute toxicity here, including dose to detrusor muscle, neurovascular bundles, etc. Impact of margin size on toxicity is clearly highly dependent on dose choice and location. I don't think anybody is going to argue the benefits of margin reduction on acute head and neck treatment toxicity with 70 Gy.
 
mri Linac are great as destination treatments. Don’t have to schedule fiducials and then wait for them to settle. Let’s get this down to 2 fractions!
Hold my beer.
 
Hold my beer.
 
real people doing RadOnc residency and applying for it? I look at these photos in disbelief

Probably failed to mention their chances for optho, Derm, Ortho were fading fast and they needed a backup.
 
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