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Lots of doctors work evenings, nights, weekends, 12+ hour shifts, etc. This comment is pretty bizarre and my frustration with people who freak out at post 4PM activities unless you are saying the only way to have a family and a satisfying medical career is to go into a banker's hours outpatient specialty.

You are making a lot of assumptions that aren't true.

smq is a physician and works till 5:30 PM most days. Her husband is also a physician who typically works later than that.

Who is going to take care of the kids after daycare closes? Spend $25/hr on a nanny once a month just for that, if you could even find someone willing to do that? Get real.
 
You are making a lot of assumptions that aren't true.

smq is a physician works till 5:30 PM most days. Her husband is also a physician who works later than that.

Who is going to take care of the kids after daycare closes? Spend $25/hr on a nanny once a month just for that? Get real.

My comment was not directed towards anyone on a personal level as there is no way I could know the specifics of what you just provided. Just the general frustration that meetings, work, or social gatherings that extend into the evenings should be verboten as that is universally protected family time. I don't think that's a realistic expectation for most physicians to always be able to leave at 4 or 5 such that operations and everyone else's schedule has to be structured around it. What we signed up for, when we went to med school, was pretty intense, and I would think everyone knew having a family was going to be tougher in this field rather than if you were a school teacher or something. I know it's hard, and I'm all for doing things to make it easier, but our field's (and other's like derm) lifestyle is rather unique/cushy in the medical field, so this anathema to occasional post 5-pm stuff just seems a little weird to me.

I'm certainly not advocating for mandated happy hours. That's stupid. Because if you are forcing people that think they are stupid and don't see in value in socializing outside of work and getting to know each other on a personal level, then yeah they are not going to be happy about being forced to be there and make small talk over wings and beer and the whole exercise will be pointless, as was my experience.

Obviously, the expectations are different for professionals like physicians, and hourly staff.
 
You are making a lot of assumptions that aren't true.

smq is a physician and works till 5:30 PM most days. Her husband is also a physician who typically works later than that.

Who is going to take care of the kids after daycare closes? Spend $25/hr on a nanny once a month just for that, if you could even find someone willing to do that? Get real.
Speaking in generalizations (not knowing any of you), almost every 2 physician family I know has a nanny or frequent baby sitter if they have kids

I don’t know how you could pull it off otherwise. 25 dollar an hour for a 2 doc household is typically doable
 
However, given the demographics of this country, we may have a relative shortage of labor for certain fields no matter what the overall economy does.
This is the overwhelming factor that I am concerned about at present with regard to viability of smaller and rural hospital systems. The healthy ones can weather the inflation and even disparities in payment to some degree. But, you need people to do the work. The same confluence of covid, boomer retirement and boomer cancer, that has made the radonc job market slightly better, has created absolute chaos regarding medical oncology, nursing and medical physics.

We are almost losing an entire tier of medical oncology providers. Many of the IMG medoncs, who previously would establish themselves in a rural community, now seem to be willing to leave these jobs and call their own shot in the locums market.
 
Speaking in generalizations (not knowing any of you), almost every 2 physician family I know has a nanny or frequent baby sitter if they have kids

I don’t know how you could pull it off otherwise. 25 dollar an hour for a 2 doc household is typically doable

Our daycare is open 7:30 - 6:00 PM. That's enough hours for a purely outpatient gig like family medicine.

Sure, two docs can afford $25/hr for nanny, but they want steady work. Finding an occasional babysitter is unreliable.
 
Last comment: My favorite nurse ever was a single mom with a preschooler and she always would try to come out for beers if she could. She made it happen often and was still a great mom. Sometimes she couldn't though. She was awesome! Just sayin...
 
Last comment: My favorite nurse ever was a single mom with a preschooler and she always would try to come out for beers if she could. She made it happen often and was still a great mom. Sometimes she couldn't though. She was awesome! Just sayin...

Did she bring the preschooler with her ?
 
Lots of doctors work evenings, nights, weekends, 12+ hour shifts, etc. This comment is pretty bizarre and my frustration with people who freak out at post 4PM activities unless you are saying the only way to have a family and a satisfying medical career is to go into a banker's hours outpatient specialty.

You can't attend a happy hour once a month or something? Having to stay at work until 6 or 7 occasionally is going to mess up your family that much? Come on. I am at work until 8 not infrequently and I'm a rad onc. Growing up my dad was gone during the week and my mom taught evening and night classes at the community college to help make ends meet. We were solidly middle class, but I still feel like I had a pretty privileges upbringing.

Yeah, raising kids is not easy, but was it ever if both parents wanted to/had to work? Maybe healthcare is not the right field people who always want to be present for kids after school activities. My parents certainly weren't always at my sports games in school and I often went to a babysitter after school when I was young, which I thought was normal, so maybe my perspective was warped.

This was mostly done by docs in the old days who didn't have a physician as a spouse (frequently the spouse was a full-time homemaker) and thus were able to work those long hours. Or, had family close by. Or have a full time nanny.

I'm sorry that, based on your posts and expectations for other docs that seem to be within your own generation, it appears you were born into the wrong generation. The current generation of physicians is frequently willing to take a cut in their salary for a more family friendly lifestyle.

I had a similar childhood in regards to the bolded, but hope to do better than my parents were able to (since they had to work so much harder than I do) in those aspects for the next generation.
 
This was mostly done by docs in the old days who didn't have a physician as a spouse (frequently the spouse was a full-time homemaker) and thus were able to work those long hours. Or, had family close by. Or have a full time nanny.

I'm sorry that, based on your posts and expectations for other docs that seem to be within your own generation, it appears you were born into the wrong generation. The current generation of physicians is frequently willing to take a cut in their salary for a more family friendly lifestyle.

I had a similar childhood in regards to the bolded, but hope to do better than my parents were able to (since they had to work so much harder than I do) in those aspects for the next generation.

Data backs up what you are saying - parents these days are spending more time with their kids than before.

 
However, we do not live in this ideal world. In a hospital employment situation, very far from it. They see you as another employee and certainly not their "boss."

It's funny

I was told by the chief therapist the exact opposite.

"Even though you aren't their boss and have no HR control over them, they see you as their boss so you have to set an example"
 
This is obviously a sensitive topic. However, a 2 physician household is going to have a minimum combined household income of 500k if both primary care and likely 1M or more if specialist. That is not even close to the kind of world I grew up in, and like I said I felt pretty privileged. But I'm sorry, I just can't relate well to this struggle, not to level of hardship it is made out to be. The kind of resources income levels like that afford are not available to 99+% of the world. Don't shoot the messenger. *ducks*
 
Lots of doctors work evenings, nights, weekends, 12+ hour shifts, etc. This comment is pretty bizarre and my frustration with people who freak out at post 4PM activities unless you are saying the only way to have a family and a satisfying medical career is to go into a banker's hours outpatient specialty.

You can't attend a happy hour once a month or something? Having to stay at work until 6 or 7 occasionally is going to mess up your family that much? Come on. I am at work until 8 not infrequently and I'm a rad onc. Growing up my dad was gone during the week and my mom taught evening and night classes at the community college to help make ends meet. We were solidly middle class, but I still feel like I had a pretty privileges upbringing.

Yeah, raising kids is not easy, but was it ever if both parents wanted to/had to work? Maybe healthcare is not the right field people who always want to be present for kids after school activities. My parents certainly weren't always at my sports games in school and I often went to a babysitter after school when I was young, which I thought was normal, so maybe my perspective was warped.

Going out to happy hour once a month would mean leaving my husband alone with the kids, at the time of day that is most chaotic and when they are both most likely to melt down, so that I can go out to have drinks with coworkers seems grossly unfair to him, especially as he's also worked a full day of work himself. If I genuinely enjoy hanging out with my coworkers, that's one thing. But if I feel like I "should" attend because it's "for team building," then yeah, I'll feel resentful.

Could my husband do it? Sure. And I realize how lucky I am to say that, because I know of many female physicians who would not be able to say the same for their spouses.

Is it fair to him? No. He's worked a full day, too. He's tired, too.

I have no problem staying late IF I am contractually obligated to do so. But if I have people shaking their heads that "Dr. SMQ is a real killjoy and never goes out to have fun because she pretends that she has to take care of her kids," then yeah, I'll be annoyed and unhappy at my workplace.
 
This is obviously a sensitive topic. However, a 2 physician household is going to have a minimum combined household income of 500k if both primary care and likely 1M or more if specialist. That is not even close to the kind of world I grew up in, and like I said I felt pretty privileged. But I'm sorry, I just can't relate well to this struggle, not to level of hardship it is made out to be. The kind of resources income levels like that afford are not available to 99+% of the world. Don't shoot the messenger. *ducks*

At no point did I say that I felt unlucky. My point is - if you want to make things equitable for female physicians, so as not to make them feel forced like they have to delay their childbearing (and therefore potentially run into fertility issues) then you have to stop the culture in medicine where you pretend like the hospital/clinic/admin has a right over all of their hours, even those outside of their contractual obligation. And it is clear, from what people have said, that such a culture change would be great for ALL parents and for people who just don't want to be at the hospital's beck and call at all hours. That includes ALL activities - both boring (committee meetings) and fun (happy hour and sushi nights).
 
At no point did I say that I felt unlucky. My point is - if you want to make things equitable for female physicians, so as not to make them feel forced like they have to delay their childbearing (and therefore potentially run into fertility issues) then you have to stop the culture in medicine where you pretend like the hospital/clinic/admin has a right over all of their hours, even those outside of their contractual obligation. And it is clear, from what people have said, that such a culture change would be great for ALL parents and for people who just don't want to be at the hospital's beck and call at all hours. That includes ALL activities - both boring (committee meetings) and fun (happy hour and sushi nights).

You will find no greater supporter of the philosophy that your free time is yours alone than myself. I deplore hospital policy and contracts that prevent moonlighting, locumsing, outside business activities, etc. Once you've done the work you are contracted to do, nobody should own your time or what you do with it, and your success in your career should be based on nothing more than the merits of the work you have done.

But you seem to object to even the existence of non-mandatory team get-togethers because if you choose not to attend it might make you look bad. So presumably you would support a policy just forbidding social events outside of work so one doesn't have to worry about how non-attendance could be perceived? Or else what's the proposed solution to this issue?

What do you mean by culture change? If I understand you correctly, you no longer want comradery/social events like the ones described here to exist any more. How do you effect the change of getting rid of these social events without a formal policy prohibiting them? How is that fair to the people who like them or find them valuable to just outright ban them? And furthermore, how is it fair to structure policy such that meetings occur at 7 or 8 AM instead of 5 or 6? Certainly that is preferable for people who have kids as it makes their lives easier, but doing the meetings in the evenings, in my personal situation, makes my life much easier. I realize I'm in the minority, and if you want to make the argument that as a society, we should prioritize schedules that are more conducive to raising children to preferentially benefit those with young families even if it is less ideal for those without. I suppose I can see that, but is that the argument?

In other terms, since you are talking about "equity", if you structure the culture of medicine to preferentially benefit those with young families you are going to create a structure that people like myself, and I guess I'm a traditionalist apparently, hate. Somebody's not going to get what they want, or making one group's life easier is going to make some other group's harder in zero sum fashion.
 
People are free to prioritize whatever they want.

If you prioritize your family over your staff/colleagues in every single opportunity, it gets noticed. Vice versa, as well.

There's a sustainable balance somewhere in between.

Hot take: getting beers and apps for 2 hours after work two-four times per year should be manageable for essentially everyone.
 
In
Lots of doctors work evenings, nights, weekends, 12+ hour shifts, etc. This comment is pretty bizarre and my frustration with people who freak out at post 4PM activities unless you are saying the only way to have a family and a satisfying medical career is to go into a banker's hours outpatient specialty.

You can't attend a happy hour once a month or something? Having to stay at work until 6 or 7 occasionally is going to mess up your family that much? Come on. I am at work until 8 not infrequently and I'm a rad onc. Growing up my dad was gone during the week and my mom taught evening and night classes at the community college to help make ends meet. We were solidly middle class, but I still feel like I had a pretty privileges upbringing.

Yeah, raising kids is not easy, but was it ever if both parents wanted to/had to work? Maybe healthcare is not the right field people who always want to be present for kids after school activities. My parents certainly weren't always at my sports games in school and I often went to a babysitter after school when I was young, which I thought was normal, so maybe my perspective was warped.
l loathe doing anything “optional” after work. I have a 1 hour commute and kids and I’m not going to initiate nor attend anyone’s “fun with work people” happy hour.
This isn’t about not being able to do it or can’t figure out childcare. It’s about setting boundaries and protecting your own sense of peace and balance however you need to.

I often pay for lunch- and it’s great because no one has to go anywhere or cancel or rearrange evening plans.
 
Not sure how this got so heated, I think the idea is sometimes you may WANT to grab beers/food with colleagues after work
I don't say "hey dosimetry, therapy, physics we're hanging out after work quarterly be there and neglect your family"
There's a balance

As in something I would tell my spouse "hey I'd like to do this it's important to me occasionally I'll be home an hour or two later" as part of a communicative relationship
For example - my department does a nice dinner at a restaurant and secret Santa for our Christmas party, after work hours, everyone looks forward to it, I pay for everyone, and it is enjoyable. If someone didn't want to go or had a new baby, etc, no big deal
 
But you seem to object to even the existence of non-mandatory team get-togethers because if you choose not to attend it might make you look bad. So presumably you would support a policy just forbidding social events outside of work so one doesn't have to worry about how non-attendance could be perceived? Or else what's the proposed solution to this issue?

What do you mean by culture change? If I understand you correctly, you no longer want comradery/social events like the ones described here to exist any more. How do you effect the change of getting rid of these social events without a formal policy prohibiting them? How is that fair to the people who like them or find them valuable to just outright ban them? And furthermore, how is it fair to structure policy such that meetings occur at 7 or 8 AM instead of 5 or 6? Certainly that is preferable for people who have kids as it makes their lives easier, but doing the meetings in the evenings, in my personal situation, makes my life much easier. I realize I'm in the minority, and if you want to make the argument that as a society, we should prioritize schedules that are more conducive to raising children to preferentially benefit those with young families even if it is less ideal for those without. I suppose I can see that, but is that the argument?

In other terms, since you are talking about "equity", if you structure the culture of medicine to preferentially benefit those with young families you are going to create a structure that people like myself, and I guess I'm a traditionalist apparently, hate. Somebody's not going to get what they want, or making one group's life easier is going to make some other group's harder in zero sum fashion.

So imagine this scenario. Your wife comes home on Thursday and tells you that she has a work party the next evening, and that spouses are invited. She tells you that she would really like it if you went with her, but it's certainly not required and she totally understands if you can't make it.

It's been a really stressful week at work - you have a bajillion patients on treat, one of the machines is down for repairs, you're short staffed, and you have had a tension headache brewing since Tuesday afternoon. So you tell her that you're sorry, but you just need to rest after work on Friday.

But later you hear her on the phone with her best friend, and she says, "Yeah, Moonbeams isn't going. He made some excuse about work being busy, or whatever. Yeah...I worry that he's checked out of this marriage if he doesn't see that spending quality time together at things like this is important for building our relationship. He's just missing out a chance on strengthening our relationship."

So clearly, even though she said it was optional, and even might claim to believe that it was optional....it wasn't actually optional.

So your coworkers didn't use their children as an excuse. They didn't pass up on an opportunity for team building. They're not missing out on a chance to work on workplace camaraderie. They just opted not to go to your happy hour, full stop.

And who said that I want meetings to start at 7? At least at 8, you could make the case that you're contractually obligated to be there, since those are (presumably) clinic operating hours, but otherwise, I would prefer it if they started at 3:30 and ended at 5, if they have to happen at all. Yes, that means losing out on productivity and revenue, but maybe that we mean that we could cull the meetings to only truly important ones, instead of just scheduling them with abandon.
 
If you make it sound like they have to do it or get upset if they don't join, that's not a fun event. And intentional Team Building is bull****.
Agreed. When we take staff out it's very much optional, and it's pretty much just to destress and shoot the ****. Surprisingly good attendance i throw one, it's random, maybe a few times a year
 
This is one of those sleeper topics that seems to touch different nerves for different people.

I occasionally go to these things and/or recruitment dinners… but often decline. I either mention my family or simply say “I am pretty tired after work and would probably just be staring off into space”… which isn’t far from the truth.

No one takes offense… probably because I look tired while i am AT work
 
Been there. I cancelled basically all department meetings. Why are we doing peer review when there are no peers? Cancelled. Chart rounds once a week where we do the physics check together as a group at lunch time? Cancelled. Group chart review every morning on every new patient coming in that day? Cancelled.

Freed up many wasted hours.
HOWEVER, what ended up happening is that staff went out of their way to try and find any little problem or error, no matter how trivial and attribute it to you cancelling meetings and run to admin with it as proof of how reckless you are and beg them (your boss) to mandate the meetings.
My point is that it is do-able, but everyone will hate you for it.

Curiously enough, the one meeting I wanted to have, where we go out every other week after work and I buy everyone apps and beers nobody wanted to do. What I have found out is that 99% of working age adults are totally fine with wasting as much time as possible between the hours of 7AM and 4PM. The more wasted time during these hours the better, especially the early ones. But the SECOND you try to encroach on someone's post-4PM time, oh man watch out. Even if you want to buy them beers and do team building. No. They have kids at home that will literally die at 4:15PM if they are not there.

As someone who will gladly stay in the office until 8PM but loathes arriving before 9AM, I have found that this is not the field for me in that way. I think I'm literally the only one.
Oh yes, I will not go to any after work happy hours. I was like this pre-kids too. It was different when I was a resident, but post-residency, sorry nope.

for me its more like @smq123 said, I don't want to spend my spouses good will on something I would rather not go to. I believe I treat my staff very well and am friendly and engaging during work but then by 4 pm I'm just done. I'm sort of an introvert like that and recharge by not being out in social situations.
 
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Oh yes, I will not go to any after work happy hours. I was like this pre-kids too. It was different when I was a resident, but post-residency, sorry nope.

for me its more like @smq123 said, I don't want to spend my spouses good will on something I would rather not go to. I believe I treat my staff very well and am friendly and engaging during work but then by 4 pm I'm just done. I'm sort of an introvert like that and recharge by not being out in social situations.
Sounds like me… I cringe when people ask what are my plans for the weekend. I get along with everyone but the thought of being around people makes me tired! Besides my family and friends love to eat into my time so I try to stay off the grid as much as possible.
 
And to expand on why I believe it is such a hot topic, is because of the unspoken "networking" or career building that can happen at some of these after hours dinners and drinks. I certainly believe they can be great for team building as long as it is not being forced upon people. However, we are all different, and people do different things to recharge, which I strongly believe deserves to be respected when people know their own personal boundaries.
 
I buy lunch for my staff once every 4-6 weeks but we almost never do anything outside of work. We did a farewell dinner for a long tenured physicist that was leaving and my therapists have done a couple informal happy hours for therapists that have left that I’ve stopped by at. I have a great relationship with my staff and I try to make it to these things. These are people I know very well, many of whom I have spent 40+ hours a week with for the last 5 years, but there is something very human about interacting with them in a social setting that I personally really enjoy. I also attend the occasional work event with my spouse because I like to meet the people that I hear about on a daily basis, and similarly her work friends enjoy meeting me. I’ve never felt that not attending a work event was held against someone, everyone is understanding of one another’s childcare or spousal needs. However, I do think that making a little bit of effort goes a long way. It reminds everyone that “the boss” is just a regular person too.
 
I buy lunch for my staff once every 4-6 weeks but we almost never do anything outside of work. We did a farewell dinner for a long tenured physicist that was leaving and my therapists have done a couple informal happy hours for therapists that have left that I’ve stopped by at. I have a great relationship with my staff and I try to make it to these things. These are people I know very well, many of whom I have spent 40+ hours a week with for the last 5 years, but there is something very human about interacting with them in a social setting that I personally really enjoy. I also attend the occasional work event with my spouse because I like to meet the people that I hear about on a daily basis, and similarly her work friends enjoy meeting me. I’ve never felt that not attending a work event was held against someone, everyone is understanding of one another’s childcare or spousal needs. However, I do think that making a little bit of effort goes a long way. It reminds everyone that “the boss” is just a regular person too.
The key to holding events is that it is completely optional, there is no other agenda/incentive except to socialize and don’t do it on Friday evening unless you invite their people. If people don’t ever show up, it’s not because they are party poopers or mean .. it just means they have something else they’d prefer to do. Which is fine!!
 
Late to the party, but as always, I find the unique structure/flow to RadOnc creates bizarre dynamics.

With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the staff I work with have a near superhuman ability to attain "clock in/clock out" mentality.

"Near superhuman" because they seem to dedicate almost ZERO brainspace to remembering...anything. Which is a problem when therapists rotate machines every few weeks, so when everyone has done a complete cycle, I basically am stuck in real-life "Groundhog's Day".

There's one therapist in particular who manages to forget anything I've ever said, so when she returns to staffing the CTSIM, I literally always have to re-educate her on my default setup preferences. I'm talking like, whether I use a slant board or not. It's crazy.

But healthcare has evolved to make us fairly toothless right now. With decades of direct supervision requirements, we had limited flexibility in where we could be and when. Because of capital requirements, most of us have either been on professional contracts or employed, meaning staff and equipment are not "ours", so we're not anyone's "boss" in a classic sense.

But we're still "the doctor". So we're often perceived as "the boss" - without authority - and carry ALL liability.

We're also the only ones who need to interact with each type of person in the department to get the job done, so we have infinite possibilities for strife and no neutral allies. The front desk secretarial staff has very limited interaction with dosimetry staff, for example. So if there's a "problem dosimetrist", but there's a "work friendship" between a secretary and dosimetrist, you're at risk for creating multiple sources of conflict if the secretaries think you're being unfair "to their friend". This is complicated by the fact that radiotherapy is almost like speaking a foreign language to those without formal training, so issues don't even make sense.

Sprinkle in that everyone loves to waste time at work, and we're the ones on the hook to make sure nothing gets dropped, so lunch meetings with free food and no point are beloved by staff.

It doesn't have to stay this way and hopefully we can improve cultures over time. But I find the natural dynamics which arise in Radiation Oncology to be incredibly strange...and no one talks about it.
 
Late to the party, but as always, I find the unique structure/flow to RadOnc creates bizarre dynamics.

With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the staff I work with have a near superhuman ability to attain "clock in/clock out" mentality.

"Near superhuman" because they seem to dedicate almost ZERO brainspace to remembering...anything. Which is a problem when therapists rotate machines every few weeks, so when everyone has done a complete cycle, I basically am stuck in real-life "Groundhog's Day".

There's one therapist in particular who manages to forget anything I've ever said, so when she returns to staffing the CTSIM, I literally always have to re-educate her on my default setup preferences. I'm talking like, whether I use a slant board or not. It's crazy.

But healthcare has evolved to make us fairly toothless right now. With decades of direct supervision requirements, we had limited flexibility in where we could be and when. Because of capital requirements, most of us have either been on professional contracts or employed, meaning staff and equipment are not "ours", so we're not anyone's "boss" in a classic sense.

But we're still "the doctor". So we're often perceived as "the boss" - without authority - and carry ALL liability.

We're also the only ones who need to interact with each type of person in the department to get the job done, so we have infinite possibilities for strife and no neutral allies. The front desk secretarial staff has very limited interaction with dosimetry staff, for example. So if there's a "problem dosimetrist", but there's a "work friendship" between a secretary and dosimetrist, you're at risk for creating multiple sources of conflict if the secretaries think you're being unfair "to their friend". This is complicated by the fact that radiotherapy is almost like speaking a foreign language to those without formal training, so issues don't even make sense.

Sprinkle in that everyone loves to waste time at work, and we're the ones on the hook to make sure nothing gets dropped, so lunch meetings with free food and no point are beloved by staff.

It doesn't have to stay this way and hopefully we can improve cultures over time. But I find the natural dynamics which arise in Radiation Oncology to be incredibly strange...and no one talks about it.
I think about this regularly. It's not medical oncology I wish I had done, as they probably don't have dissimilar staffing issues. Though I imagine nurses generally fell less special and more replaceable than therapists. In any case, I kinda wish I had done psychiatry for these reasons. Day-to-day operations would entail virtually nobody else, and my ultimate success would be built on my personality and ability to Interact with patients. Seemingly, why we went into this. I'm wasting a ton of time on pettiness.
 
Late to the party, but as always, I find the unique structure/flow to RadOnc creates bizarre dynamics.

With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the staff I work with have a near superhuman ability to attain "clock in/clock out" mentality.

"Near superhuman" because they seem to dedicate almost ZERO brainspace to remembering...anything. Which is a problem when therapists rotate machines every few weeks, so when everyone has done a complete cycle, I basically am stuck in real-life "Groundhog's Day".

There's one therapist in particular who manages to forget anything I've ever said, so when she returns to staffing the CTSIM, I literally always have to re-educate her on my default setup preferences. I'm talking like, whether I use a slant board or not. It's crazy.

But healthcare has evolved to make us fairly toothless right now. With decades of direct supervision requirements, we had limited flexibility in where we could be and when. Because of capital requirements, most of us have either been on professional contracts or employed, meaning staff and equipment are not "ours", so we're not anyone's "boss" in a classic sense.

But we're still "the doctor". So we're often perceived as "the boss" - without authority - and carry ALL liability.

We're also the only ones who need to interact with each type of person in the department to get the job done, so we have infinite possibilities for strife and no neutral allies. The front desk secretarial staff has very limited interaction with dosimetry staff, for example. So if there's a "problem dosimetrist", but there's a "work friendship" between a secretary and dosimetrist, you're at risk for creating multiple sources of conflict if the secretaries think you're being unfair "to their friend". This is complicated by the fact that radiotherapy is almost like speaking a foreign language to those without formal training, so issues don't even make sense.

Sprinkle in that everyone loves to waste time at work, and we're the ones on the hook to make sure nothing gets dropped, so lunch meetings with free food and no point are beloved by staff.

It doesn't have to stay this way and hopefully we can improve cultures over time. But I find the natural dynamics which arise in Radiation Oncology to be incredibly strange...and no one talks about it.
Culture is very interesting. A lot of times, we can’t control it, particular if we are the new guy.

What I found on the 4th try (!), is to embrace the one that exists and nurture that. We currently have a staff that has known each other almost from inception of the clinic (3 people here about 30 years) and two “new” people (6 years with us, more with the hospital). ESE’s version - I’ve seen that one and tried to change it with ultimately poor results. The other 3 - they were more like the current situation.

We do very short, informal “meetings”. Lunch is bought once a week, and you can eat wherever you’d like, but we all usually eat together anyway, even when I’m not buying. “Chart rounds” is a couple times a week, and it’s quick, no doses, just updates - we are constantly chattering throughout the week.

Hospiyao runs lean, so all of us do more than we would at a busy department. Manager is dosimetry. Nurse is navigator. Front desk and nurse do billing. Therapy is transport. Marketing is hospital marketing. HR stays out of the way, with limited modules and interactions.

The lines are blurred and hierarchy is limited. I am foregoing “director” type leadership and just going with it. They come to with issues and unless it’s safety issue, if it sounds reasonable, I go with it.

As an operation, we are … fine. We are profitable. We are the c-suite’s darling, at least at the moment. I participate in hospital stuff, not because I have to, but because I like the people I work with. That’s personality - because I have a low threshold to like people.

Point is not that I’m doing much right. I’m so hands off. I think my attitude is the best it’s been and I have really embraced curiosity culture and am conservative - no changes unless it’s required. Whimsical changes based on Simul’s feeling are rare. This is a new way for me - I like things My Way, but found that everyone else does, too.

It’s not perfect and we have some personnel issues (anyone want to work as a physicist in a low stress, high pay per patient treated?), but I would say I have changed a lot in 12 years and I think the “me” today is a better teammate than the “me” of 2010. It is working for us .. today.
 
This has been an absolutely fascinating discussion. I mean, my opinion is that it is ridiculous -- the level of vitriol towards occasional and even rare post 5pm work events is just wild to me. This idea that if your kids aren't actively managed by you at all times something awful will happen. But I am a dinosaur from an era where as an 8 year old in the summer we would venture off on bikes, explore the woods, not come back until dark, whatever. The bus would drop us off after school and we would walk alone the 20 minutes it took to get from the bus stop to our houses because our mom was at work and usually couldn't pick us up. Clearly I am out of touch when it comes to raising children in the modern world.

I've said this as a joke in the past, that if your staff can;t leave by 4 pm, it's catastrophic because they have kids that will literally die. Yeah, that's a joke, but really how much of one? Because that's kind of the attitude most seem to have.

What's really fascinating is how this is being framed as a equity/women's rights issue. I never even considered the mere existence of occasional after hours get-togethers as an affront to equality among the sexes in the workplace. Historically there was always the complaint of women being excluded from the "old boys club events" Of course everyone is invited to these things, but now it's a 180, nobody wants to be invited and they need to be shut down. I'm still unclear as to what the proposed solution is: a policy prohibiting them or just a general awareness that inviting colleagues out for a beer, is what, a microaggression?

Regardless, you all are not telling me anything I haven't already learned for myself. Most people hate these things and will be unhappy if they are pressured to go. I certainly don't have any plans to offer them again. And yes, the thing everyone LOVES more than anything are the free lunches and ability to waste time on the clock. If we stopped the rep lunches and started paying for weekly happy hours instead I think some staff literally might quit because of it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the level of animosity many have towards this is wild to me. There is no quicker way to piss someone off than to comment on parenting. My thought is that raising children is tough, and if this is something you have intentionally planned alongside a fulltime career in the medical profession, there are going to be some challenging tradeoffs you signed up for and within reason need to accept. Scolding colleagues for having social events after hours because it's a threat to your career/family balance is not something I can get on baord with. I'm just not going to see eye-to-eye on that and I guess that's the thing about our field is that you can ideally find the right group culture you fit in with. Obviously a cold corporate like academic or mega hospital probably isn't going to be the place for me, and that's fine. Medgator and I witll enjoy some sushi and beer on our own until we are forced out of business in, oh what, 5 years at this point? So yeah, I don't think you all have much to worry about as I suspect things like this will become extinct soon and looked back on like an anacronism from Mad Men.
 
I think herein lies the problem

You have expectations.

I have none, so they can never fail to meet them

Reasons for not attending can range from: “I have real issues to take care of that time and will join next time” to “I hate you all, but I like my job” and both are reasonable
 
I think herein lies the problem

You have expectations.

I have none, so they can never fail to meet them

Reasons for not attending can range from: “I have real issues to take care of that time and will join next time” to “I hate you all, but I like my job” and both are reasonable
I agree with you. When I tried to do these things, it was not mandatory, and I didn't care if people came or not. It was a genuine olive branch to try and make the staff not hate me. Clearly it was not the way to do it as they felt pressured to come. Now that I am no longer in a leadership role, I will often ask if anybody wants to grab a beer outside of work more informally. I almost never have any takers. What is interesting to me is this attitude that it is inappropriate to try and arrange such things. That was the one thing I learned here. Kinda sad IMO but whatever, there are bigger fish to fry in terms of problems in our field.
 
I agree with you. When I tried to do these things, it was not mandatory, and I didn't care if people came or not. It was a genuine olive branch to try and make the staff not hate me. Clearly it was not the way to do it as they felt pressured to come. Now that I am no longer in a leadership role, I will often ask if anybody wants to grab a beer outside of work more informally. I almost never have any takers. What is interesting to me is this attitude that it is inappropriate to try and arrange such things. That was the one thing I learned here. Kinda sad IMO but whatever, there are bigger fish to fry in terms of problems in our field.
I wouldn’t take it personal. Some people don’t mind hanging out after work, some people hate it. I think the pandemic has got more people to value what they think is more important to them. To me, I realized I wasted a lot of time at work and I rather spend my time with the people I choose to hang out with more.
 
This has been an absolutely fascinating discussion. I mean, my opinion is that it is ridiculous -- the level of vitriol towards occasional and even rare post 5pm work events is just wild to me. This idea that if your kids aren't actively managed by you at all times something awful will happen. But I am a dinosaur from an era where as an 8 year old in the summer we would venture off on bikes, explore the woods, not come back until dark, whatever. The bus would drop us off after school and we would walk alone the 20 minutes it took to get from the bus stop to our houses because our mom was at work and usually couldn't pick us up. Clearly I am out of touch when it comes to raising children in the modern world.

I've said this as a joke in the past, that if your staff can;t leave by 4 pm, it's catastrophic because they have kids that will literally die. Yeah, that's a joke, but really how much of one? Because that's kind of the attitude most seem to have.

What's really fascinating is how this is being framed as a equity/women's rights issue. I never even considered the mere existence of occasional after hours get-togethers as an affront to equality among the sexes in the workplace. Historically there was always the complaint of women being excluded from the "old boys club events" Of course everyone is invited to these things, but now it's a 180, nobody wants to be invited and they need to be shut down. I'm still unclear as to what the proposed solution is: a policy prohibiting them or just a general awareness that inviting colleagues out for a beer, is what, a microaggression?

Regardless, you all are not telling me anything I haven't already learned for myself. Most people hate these things and will be unhappy if they are pressured to go. I certainly don't have any plans to offer them again. And yes, the thing everyone LOVES more than anything are the free lunches and ability to waste time on the clock. If we stopped the rep lunches and started paying for weekly happy hours instead I think some staff literally might quit because of it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the level of animosity many have towards this is wild to me. There is no quicker way to piss someone off than to comment on parenting. My thought is that raising children is tough, and if this is something you have intentionally planned alongside a fulltime career in the medical profession, there are going to be some challenging tradeoffs you signed up for and within reason need to accept. Scolding colleagues for having social events after hours because it's a threat to your career/family balance is not something I can get on baord with. I'm just not going to see eye-to-eye on that and I guess that's the thing about our field is that you can ideally find the right group culture you fit in with. Obviously a cold corporate like academic or mega hospital probably isn't going to be the place for me, and that's fine. Medgator and I witll enjoy some sushi and beer on our own until we are forced out of business in, oh what, 5 years at this point? So yeah, I don't think you all have much to worry about as I suspect things like this will become extinct soon and looked back on like an anacronism from Mad Men.
I'm guessing we're about the same age. Agree with a lot of what you say here. I go drinking with the staff just about every other week. Maybe that's because I'm an alcoholic, but that's a different issue. Life doesn't end at 5pm in many private practices. Of course, many of us gen Xers are lamenting how hard it is to find people willing to do that these days, so maybe the jokes on us. I do know among all the physicians in the practice the one who routinely fails to show up to the happy hours is considered the weird one and the least likely to get staff support. This person is actually a very nice individual and clinically one of our best docs, but that's the reputation they have developed simply for avoiding fraternizing with staff. Staff really do judge you for these things.
 
I'm guessing we're about the same age. Agree with a lot of what you say here. I go drinking with the staff just about every other week. Maybe that's because I'm an alcoholic, but that's a different issue. Life doesn't end at 5pm in many private practices. Of course, many of us gen Xers are lamenting how hard it is to find people willing to do that these days, so maybe the jokes on us. I do know among all the physicians in the practice the one who routinely fails to show up to the happy hours is considered the weird one and the least likely to get staff support. This person is actually a very nice individual and clinically one of our best docs, but that's the reputation they have developed simply for avoiding fraternizing with staff. Staff really do judge you for these things.
Maybe that doc is attending an orgy party!
 
. What is interesting to me is this attitude that it is inappropriate to try and arrange such things. That was the one thing I learned here. Kinda sad IMO but whatever, there are bigger fish to fry in terms of problems in our field.
Have never felt that way, personally. As @RealSimulD has said before, key is to have no expectations and make it completely optional (and don't take them to some cheap/boring d-bag place like crApplebee's or olive garden or something, make it a local place that folks are actually going to want to show up to for good free grub and booze!!)
 
No way.....cuz I'd be at that party...with the staff!
Just doing a gif check... EWS!


stanley kubrick mask GIF
tom cruise film GIF
 
The big issue is there used to be a time when YOU could hire a staff that fit your personality and professional/personal needs. I'm lucky to still have that, so I get to hire people who see the world like I do, and I have to tell you--it's worth all the others stresses of private practice and then some. Every day I get to hang out and work with people I like on a truly personal level, and I even trust them enough to drive me home when I can't see straight. Hospitals and corporate medicine took that away from most of you, so you're stuck with the staff they choose whether you like it or not.
 
Have never felt that way, personally. As @RealSimulD has said before, key is to have no expectations and make it completely optional (and don't take them to some cheap/boring d-bag place like crApplebee's or olive garden or something, make it a local place that folks are actually going to want to show up to for good free grub and booze!!)

Talk about out cheap. I remember being forced to have the residency pre interviews dinners at various dive bars that they got a good deal on despite me begging to have it at nicer places.
 
I think herein lies the problem

You have expectations.

I have none, so they can never fail to meet them

Reasons for not attending can range from: “I have real issues to take care of that time and will join next time” to “I hate you all, but I like my job” and both are reasonable
I’m going to say they expanded by +1 before Dan got there. Will see what acgme count says in the winter.
 
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