Radiation Oncology feels just like Pathology - Disrespected

[deleted915203]

Why Have So Few Radiation Oncologists Become US or Canadian Medical School Deans or University Presidents? In Regard to Halperin

International Journal of Radiation Oncology
July 1st, 2019
Redirecting (Original Article)
Redirecting (Response Article - Title listed above)

After reading these articles, it seems that Radiation Oncology feels the same way as Pathology - Disrespected. Key points made:

1. A lack of knowledge of the field by medical students / physicians in other specialties. They use terms "overlooked", not being "visible" and not being "mainstream".
2. Not being considered "real doctors".
3. They feel that they are perceived as a "basement" specialty and "bottom feeders".
4. Few hold leadership positions outside of their field.
5. Low NIH research funding.
6. Recommends that leadership ensure that trainees know how to function in multidisciplinary teams.

Bottom Line: Radiation oncology feels disrespected, in the same ways as pathology.

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[deleted314957]

My heart weeps.

 

[Zarniwoop]

As a broad generalization, they have in rad onc what I was hoping for in pathology. Something under the radar that has a good lifestyle and allows you to live like some European duke - canes with solid gold dog heads on the top, ivory schooners delicately constructed in bottles, and everything else one could wish for.
From what I see, that is basically true for them. Great lifestyle and an income that neurosurgeons wouldn't scoff at.

Few pathologists I've met have the ROAD lifestyle that that I anticipated in med school, and only a small percentage of us hit numbers that resemble rad onc.

For me, if rad onc complains it is like having sympathy for Prince Andrew. We are not in the same boat as them.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Their job market must not be the greatest. We have had no issues finding plenty of them in my VERY rural area. Other specialties it has been hell.

 

[tiredguy]

This was an interesting (SDN) thread from their forum a bit back that I believe was even referenced here:
FUTURE RESIDENT, DO NOT BECOME A RADIATION ONCOLOGIST!!!

 

[MetroPath]

This was an interesting (SDN) thread from their forum a bit back that I believe was even referenced here:
FUTURE RESIDENT, DO NOT BECOME A RADIATION ONCOLOGIST!!!

That guy’s job search experience has been similar to mine sadly. Applied to a bunch of places and only one interview thus far.

With 600 pathologists entering the workforce each year, I’m simply not seeing that many jobs.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Is that their forum's version of "Flee pathology now!!"? Sure miss thrombus.

 

[deleted915203]

As you mentioned... the Rad Onc Job market is a major problem.

Top Concerns of Radiation Oncology Trainees in 2019: Job Market, Board Examinations, and Residency Expansion

Top Concerns of Radiation Oncology Trainees in 2019: Job Market, Board Examinations, and Residency Expansion. - PubMed - NCBI

Here is the follow-up article:

SCAROP Commentary in Reply to: Kahn et al., Top Concerns of Radiation Oncology Trainees in 2019: Job Market, Board Examinations, and Residency Expansion

SCAROP Commentary in Reply to: Kahn et al., Top Concerns of Radiation Oncology Trainees in 2019: Job Market, Board Examinations, and Residency Expans... - PubMed - NCBI

Excerpt from the article:

"Nevertheless, we need to actively manage the balance of job opportunities against the number of trainees to ensure that RO continues to attract the best future radiation oncologists. SCAROP is prepared to participate along with the ASTRO Board and others to assure this happens."

Bottom Line: Pathology leaders need to learn from Rad Onc - balance the workforce supply and demand!

 

[Unty]

Bottom Line: Pathology leaders need to learn from Rad Onc - balance the workforce supply and demand!

Funniest thing I’ve heard all year. Will never happen!!! The job market has been a topic on here for the past 10 years at least. It wasn’t just Thrombus. There were many others who came and posted on here about their difficulty in finding a job.

Apparently since CAP says there is a good job market and there will be a shortage of pathologists, there’s nothing to be fixed.

 

[deleted941485]

Funniest thing I’ve heard all year. Will never happen!!! The job market has been a topic on here for the past 10 years at least. It wasn’t just Thrombus. There were many others who came and posted on here about their difficulty in finding a job.

Apparently since CAP says there is a good job market and there will be a shortage of pathologists, there’s nothing to be fixed.

If you’re a path or RO, you really should not be trusting anyone in a position of authority. I definitely lost a ton of respect for people as I moved from Med student to intern to resident.

You are on your own more than ever.

 

[deleted314957]

Sadly we all learn over the years from med school to practice that medicine is neither an art nor a science. It is a business.

 

[deleted915203]

Sadly we all learn over the years from med school to practice that medicine is neither an art nor a science. It is a business.

@mikesheree

Mike, I want to adopt your quote as my SDN signature. This is the first time I have heard this phrase - and I have fallen in love with it.

"Sadly we all learn over the years from med school to practice that medicine is neither an art nor a science. It is a business." -mikesheree

Is this ok?

 

[deleted314957]

go for it

 

[Autopsy101]

Sadly we all learn over the years from med school to practice that medicine is neither an art nor a science. It is a business.

So true - I caught myself lecturing my first year residents about how many non-useful sections they were submitting on benign stuff. Each slide costs the hospital X - They get reimbursed Y for the entire specimen, and I/you (when you are out in practice) get reimbursed Z for looking at all these slides. Train your eye so that you can recognize grossly the disease process and submit exactly the best sections to diagnose this in the least number of blocks. They were looking at me like I had grown a third head. I think I burst their bubble a little bit, but it was almost December, so it was more than overdue.

 

[YBNJay]

As a broad generalization, they have in rad onc what I was hoping for in pathology. Something under the radar that has a good lifestyle and allows you to live like some European duke - canes with solid gold dog heads on the top, ivory schooners delicately constructed in bottles, and everything else one could wish for.
From what I see, that is basically true for them. Great lifestyle and an income that neurosurgeons wouldn't scoff at.

Few pathologists I've met have the ROAD lifestyle that that I anticipated in med school, and only a small percentage of us hit numbers that resemble rad onc.

For me, if rad onc complains it is like having sympathy for Prince Andrew. We are not in the same boat as them.

I'm with you Zarniwoop. For all their complaining about the "poor" job market, the few rad oncs I know are paid incredibly well. Like first year attendings making more than $500,000. I wonder if or when they will see their CPT rates cut.

 

[path24]

Med students need to be informed that the job market is poor and will always be poor. It has been crap for decades. There is no coming shortage. There is a constant over training. The future will not be better.

Finding a job (and keeping a contract) sucks. Welcome to pathology.

 

[Unty]

Med students need to be informed that the job market is poor and will always be poor. It has been crap for decades. There is no coming shortage. There is a constant over training. The future will not be better.

Finding a job (and keeping a contract) sucks. Welcome to pathology.

There’s data by CAP that says the opposite. The market is good and stable though.

 

[path24]

There’s data by CAP that says the opposite. The market is good and stable though.

I don't recommend believing that. Recent pathoutlines testimonials:

Thank you! I’m amazed at the amount of activity I’ve already received from my post. Thanks again for your help. Monica Morris, FASPR, Director of Physician Recruitment, Tift Regional Health System, Georgia, 11 November 2019

Thank you for posting our advertisement for our open pathologist position. It was extremely effective in sending us quality candidates. Jessica Halfacre, Bakersfield Pathology Medical Group, California, 01 October 2019

"We got a tremendous response to you placing our ad." Dr. Welsh, Pathology Associates of Anaheim, California, 11 September 2019

Great response and lots of quality candidates each time. This is the job market. Lots of candidates fighting for a limited number of jobs.

Stay away med students. You are not unique or different. Pathology=commodity.

 

[Unty]

Yaah and gbwillner disagree with you. CAP has data and you don’t. (Being sarcastic by the way).

 

[Unty]

If you thought the job market was tight, imagine being a FMG visa holder looking for a job.

Agree, Pathology has one of the worst job markets in medicine along with nuclear medicine.

 

[deleted915203]

With so many ongoing problems in Pathology (poor Job Market, Fewer American trainees, Reimbursement issues), I would like to know what is on CAP's agenda. What are CAP's priorities in the year 2020 and beyond? Does anyone know? Are any of these 3 issues in the Top 10 of their To Do List?

I have never been to a CAP meeting. However, I imagine that these 3 issues are never talked about (denial mode).

And the CAP President / President-elect, will they have the guts to solve just one problem in pathology? Is anyone optimistic?

 

[Unty]

With so many ongoing problems in Pathology (poor Job Market, Fewer American trainees, Reimbursement issues), I would like to know what is on CAP's agenda. What are CAP's priorities in the year 2020 and beyond? Does anyone know? Are any of these 3 issues in the Top 10 of their To Do List?

I have never been to a CAP meeting. However, I imagine that these 3 issues are never talked about (denial mode).

And the CAP President / President-elect, will they have the guts to solve just one problem in pathology? Is anyone optimistic?

The president of CAP is the CEO, and laboratory director of Southeastern Pathology Associates; the laboratory director of Southeast Georgia Regional Medical Center; and is on the clinical faculty of the Medical College of Georgia. He received his undergraduate degree from the University of Georgia and his medical degree from the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. He first practiced obstetrics and gynecology in Brunswick, Georgia, before focusing on his anatomic and clinical pathology practice, also in Brunswick.

This guy is obviously a successful businessman. You think he wants to cut the number of pathologists entering the job market every year? You think he cares? As a CEO, you want a nice oversupply of pathologists wouldn’t you to join your company?

Oversupply benefits big labs like Quest and big groups like SEPA that make money off of junior pathologists looking for any job. They have a nice flow of candidates looking for work who will look at 100 88305s for them everyday (at Quest). That’s 4K of revenue off of each pathologist per day in professional component. 20K a week. 80K a month. 960k of revenue a year. Get paid 250-300K. 660-700K off each pathologist. Hire more pathologists looking for jobs and multiply that # many times over.

Most biopsies are benign so you don’t really need to hire a great surgical pathologist to do the work.

Again money and greed rears it’s ugly head. This happens all throughout medicine not just pathology. We as pathologists depend on CAP to make the right decisions to protect the field from degradation and oversupply which they have not.

Like the other thread mentioned....Medicine is a business. If people can make more money for themselves or save money for themselves they will.

Say what you will about CAP data showing the job market is good. It’s not. Be ready to move to get a job.

 

[Napoleon1801]

With so many ongoing problems in Pathology (poor Job Market, Fewer American trainees, Reimbursement issues), I would like to know what is on CAP's agenda. What are CAP's priorities in the year 2020 and beyond? Does anyone know? Are any of these 3 issues in the Top 10 of their To Do List?

I have never been to a CAP meeting. However, I imagine that these 3 issues are never talked about (denial mode).

And the CAP President / President-elect, will they have the guts to solve just one problem in pathology? Is anyone optimistic?

CAP's priorities? $$$, just like everyone else.

 

[deleted915203]

To summarize:

Rad Onc Organizations' Priority: Address job market concerns, restrict training slots. See references above.

CAP's Priority: $$$

Bottom Line: Rad Onc Organizations >>> CAP

Thumbs up, if you agree!

 

[Unty]

To summarize:

Rad Onc Organizations' Priority: Address job market concerns, restrict training slots. See references above.

CAP's Priority: $$$

Bottom Line: Rad Onc Organizations >>> CAP

Thumbs up, if you agree!

There is no reason to cut the number of training spots per CAP as their published data says there is no oversupply of pathologists.

Funny thing is I’ve never received a CAP survey regarding the job market. I would’ve mentioned something. I’ll ask my friends but I think they never received anything.

These surveys only go to CAP members? I stopped being a member after I finished residency.

Anyone here ever receive a CAP survey?

 

[path24]

CAP job data is basically surveying pathologists with a job to see if they have a job. (going to pay CAP dues when you don't have a job?) The numbers happen to look really good when you do that. Might want to think about that "data" for a second. Sadly it seems to sell though. I'll take my real world experience and other pathologists I know experiences. Yep, job market sucks.

I did do a quick survey of the pathologists in my group. Turns out 100% have jobs. Hard to argue with those numbers.

 

[Iceman24]

The president of CAP is the CEO, and laboratory director of Southeastern Pathology Associates; the laboratory director of Southeast Georgia Regional Medical Center; and is on the clinical faculty of the Medical College of Georgia. He received his undergraduate degree from the University of Georgia and his medical degree from the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. He first practiced obstetrics and gynecology in Brunswick, Georgia, before focusing on his anatomic and clinical pathology practice, also in Brunswick.

This guy is obviously a successful businessman. You think he wants to cut the number of pathologists entering the job market every year? You think he cares? As a CEO, you want a nice oversupply of pathologists wouldn’t you to join your company?

Oversupply benefits big labs like Quest and big groups like SEPA that make money off of junior pathologists looking for any job. They have a nice flow of candidates looking for work who will look at 100 88305s for them everyday (at Quest). That’s 4K of revenue off of each pathologist per day in professional component. 20K a week. 80K a month. 960k of revenue a year. Get paid 250-300K. 660-700K off each pathologist. Hire more pathologists looking for jobs and multiply that # many times over.

Most biopsies are benign so you don’t really need to hire a great surgical pathologist to do the work.

Again money and greed rears it’s ugly head. This happens all throughout medicine not just pathology. We as pathologists depend on CAP to make the right decisions to protect the field from degradation and oversupply which they have not.

Like the other thread mentioned....Medicine is a business. If people can make more money for themselves or save money for themselves they will.

Say what you will about CAP data showing the job market is good. It’s not. Be ready to move to get a job.

BTW, his daughter has just started her first job as a transfusion medicine faculty at VCU.

 

[turtle1966]

There’s data by CAP that says the opposite. The market is good and stable though.

Pathology job market resembles a "quantum entanglement" phenomenon: When one is "up", the other is "down."

Remember being this way for at least 40 years.

 

[turtle1966]

Yaah and gbwillner disagree with you. CAP has data and you don’t. (Being sarcastic by the way).

CAP "data" and the likes, have been out for 30+ years.... Many of those who have relied on them, have fallen wayside... You find many of them practicing GP and other specialties....

 

[y2k_free_radical]

The president of CAP is the CEO, and laboratory director of Southeastern Pathology Associates; the laboratory director of Southeast Georgia Regional Medical Center; and is on the clinical faculty of the Medical College of Georgia. He received his undergraduate degree from the University of Georgia and his medical degree from the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. He first practiced obstetrics and gynecology in Brunswick, Georgia, before focusing on his anatomic and clinical pathology practice, also in Brunswick.

This guy is obviously a successful businessman. You think he wants to cut the number of pathologists entering the job market every year? You think he cares? As a CEO, you want a nice oversupply of pathologists wouldn’t you to join your company?

Oversupply benefits big labs like Quest and big groups like SEPA that make money off of junior pathologists looking for any job. They have a nice flow of candidates looking for work who will look at 100 88305s for them everyday (at Quest). That’s 4K of revenue off of each pathologist per day in professional component. 20K a week. 80K a month. 960k of revenue a year. Get paid 250-300K. 660-700K off each pathologist. Hire more pathologists looking for jobs and multiply that # many times over.

Most biopsies are benign so you don’t really need to hire a great surgical pathologist to do the work.

Again money and greed rears it’s ugly head. This happens all throughout medicine not just pathology. We as pathologists depend on CAP to make the right decisions to protect the field from degradation and oversupply which they have not.

Like the other thread mentioned....Medicine is a business. If people can make more money for themselves or save money for themselves they will.

Say what you will about CAP data showing the job market is good. It’s not. Be ready to move to get a job.

They now have around 45 pathologists in south GA and north FLA and are growing .Look at the new job ads on PATHOLOGY OUTLINES.

 

[Unty]

They now have around 45 pathologists in south GA and north FLA and are growing .Look at the new job ads on PATHOLOGY OUTLINES.

Nice. A good flow of junior pathologists who are willing to work for them $$$$. Benefits the CEO and those in the leadership.

 

[path24]

Pathology employment will be pick your mill? Academic vs corporate? Happy to hire you at a nice low salary and show you the door in your 50s for cheap oversupplied younger labor. Great future. Glad I am not a resident.

 

[deleted314957]

Pathology employment will be pick your mill? Academic vs corporate? Happy to hire you at a nice low salary and show you the door in your 50s for cheap oversupplied younger labor. Great future. Glad I am not a resident.

me too

 

[yaah]

Yaah and gbwillner disagree with you. CAP has data and you don’t. (Being sarcastic by the way).

All I have done is post my experience and raise questions about the common complaints on here. I haven't said the job market is great. If you want me to reiterate the things I have said previously, I can. And I really haven't seen much in the way of opposite experiences to mine - plenty of hearsay and supposition though. So you keep slandering me for sharing my experience, but if you want people to take your argument seriously you are going to have to do more than tell people with real experience that their experience doesn't count unless it fits your bias. I'm not telling you that your anecdotes are false.

And for all you whine about it, the CAP does have data. You may not like it, I may not think it tells the whole story, but it's data nonetheless. Stop blaming me for it. Stop waiting for others to do something about it.

 

[path24]

CAP president is looking for employees, not colleagues. Sums up pathology nicely.

 

[Doormat]

CAP president is looking for employees, not colleagues. Sums up pathology nicely.

Completely agree with this statement. Joining a corporate pathology mill like the one described is like signing up to invest in a known Ponzi scheme. You get young investors (new pathologists) to pay off the early investors (company founders) with their hard work and low salaries. Unfortunately, there will be no late career reward for the young investors.

 

[Unty]

Completely agree with this statement. Joining a corporate pathology mill like the one described is like signing up to invest in a known Ponzi scheme. You get young investors (new pathologists) to pay off the early investors (company founders) with their hard work and low salaries. Unfortunately, there will be no late career reward for the young investors.

Yup agree as well I know a busy outpatient lab/group that has you looking at biopsies. Job only gives you 2 weeks of vacation lol, starting 190k. Imagine all the money you are making for the owners.

If you owned a group wouldn’t you want a bunch of minions (aka junior pathologists) who would work for you?

 

[yaah]

If you owned a group wouldn’t you want a bunch of minions (aka junior pathologists) who would work for you?

No. But I know there are many who do want this, and I do think it's sad and unfortunate. The worst are the groups where the retired partners are still pulling in income.