Radio Show on Carib. Med Schools today at

[azskeptic]

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WUBR in Boston is going to do a radio show today with Jack Dolan of the Ct newspaper that did an article on Carib. Med Schools.

http://www.ctnow.com/news/local/hc-medschools,0,2160491.storygallery?coll=hc-headlines-local

It is scheduled to be on at 12:15 pm (just after noon) Boston time. He is also going to speak about his research on problem doctors and the medical schools they went to. You can listen via the internet by going to their website at:

http://www.here-now.org/contact/

The show is Here and Now......

Az Skeptic
www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

 

[Bevo]

for those of us who couldn't listen to it

mind summarizing(sp?) what was said

thanks

 

[azskeptic]

Originally posted by azskeptic
WUBR in Boston is going to do a radio show today with Jack Dolan of the Ct newspaper that did an article on Carib. Med Schools.

http://www.ctnow.com/news/local/hc-medschools,0,2160491.storygallery?coll=hc-headlines-local

It is scheduled to be on at 12:15 pm (just after noon) Boston time. He is also going to speak about his research on problem doctors and the medical schools they went to. You can listen via the internet by going to their website at:

http://www.here-now.org/contact/

The show is Here and Now......

Az Skeptic
www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

Go to http://www.here-now.org/shows/2004/02/20040210.asp

click on archives for todays show and go to about minute 16 or so..it is right after the gay marriage discussion....very interesting conversation about offshore medical schools and also problem doctors (not only from Carib.)

 

[Global Disrobal]

Thanks for the links Azskeptic

I thought the reporter was very straight forward and to the point.

Speaking as an IMG I can tell you that almost all of us can attest to the fact that we had some classmates that were great and will turn into great physicians and a good number that should not be practicing medicine. The ones in my class were great individuals with amazing talents (literature, engineering, art) but just were not cut out for medicine. I think one of the things you face with the foreign schools is the fact that the admission criterion are lax and virtually anyone can get in and go through to graduate without even passing Step 1. As for Howard and Meharry...that was interesting to see.

 

[whopper]

One thing that bugs me about these articles from this source is their presentation although factually accurate, I feel are misleading to certain foreign schools.

example, to the uneducated on the process: there are many schools such as SGU (which I do knock big time...see my other posts in this forum) do produce graduates with board scores on par with US schools. SGU students have earned a reputation for being competent. In those other threads...I knocked how SGU treats their students, not on the performance of the students.

Someone looking at these articles can be mislead into thinking that all IMGs are sub par.

Further...there are the USMLE 1, 2, 3, the CSA, the liscencing board exams, the residency programs..

To report as if its the school's fault when these people passed these requirements, shouldn't you also be blaming the USMLE, the CSA and the liscencing boards?

Let's face it. A med school can have a 10% board pass rate. Those that do pass the boards deserve to advance. Of course the low board pass rate would make me not even consider that school...but you get the point.

Also, I've met many many fine graduates who are top level physicians who are from U. of Guadalajara. This report makes all graduates from that program look bad. One of these docs I've worked with is Dr. John Ruiz, Assistant Director at Mountainside Family Practice, and this same guy won the Family Physician of the Year award...(I think I got the award right). ITs one of the
highest praises you can get in the profession.

AGain, I do knock foreign schools because of the way they treat their students like commodities, but these students go through a lot of hard knocks. If they can pass their requirements and be good doctors, they should be respected as such.

 

[azskeptic]

Originally posted by Global Disrobal
Thanks for the links Azskeptic

I thought the reporter was very straight forward and to the point.

Speaking as an IMG I can tell you that almost all of us can attest to the fact that we had some classmates that were great and will turn into great physicians and a good number that should not be practicing medicine. The ones in my class were great individuals with amazing talents (literature, engineering, art) but just were not cut out for medicine. I think one of the things you face with the foreign schools is the fact that the admission criterion are lax and virtually anyone can get in and go through to graduate without even passing Step 1. As for Howard and Meharry...that was interesting to see.

I think you and I agree on one thing: there are some great docs coming out of these schools,often with the great disadvantages they face,they do ok. But the admissions are basically lax at some and that is where the problems begin .....people see the high drop out rates at some of the schools and think it reflects on all.

it is a developing story....interesting.

 

[whopper]

I hate saying this and this can be construed as racism though I don't think so...

Howard is an African American school, with a high number of people of African descent. I don't know if they use race as a factor in their admissions but I believe they do. That in and of itself is controversial.

But because of the demographics, black & hispanic students on average have much lower scores when it comes to the area of the medical sciences.

While I was at NYMC, my roommate who was of African descent got into the school with a 24 MCAT score and a 2.9 GPA. The school was also facing problems with EO requirements because they didn't have enough black & hispanics.

Further many prominent African American commentators such as William Raspberry: nationally syndicated columnist has mentioned that Blacks for years have been substantially and significantly underscoring compared to their non-Black counterparts.

As with Raspberry, I believe its not because Blacks are somehow worse but because of the socioeconomic situation. Math & Sciences aren't approached by people lower on the SE ladder. If they do get to the academia, they usually pursue other avenues. His solution was more scholarships. I agree.

It made me think..and I admit this might not be the case, but Howard might not have a good pool to pick from given that very very few African Americans pursue medicine relative to other demographical groups. Its a fact that people of certain other demographics pursue medicine highly such as those of eastern asian, asian, middle eastern, jewish descent much more than African Americans, and culturally those groups are linked with higher numbers of parents who encouraged and were willing to share the economic burden of medschool.

I knew for over 10 years that Howard had dramatically lower entrance examination standards than other medschools...but in my book who cares if someone graduated from Howard so long as their board scores, & performance are up to par? The deterrent to me would be at the admissions stage. I would want to goto the school with the highest board pass rate, but for someone working in the field...I wouldn't care. They passed the tests.

 

[Meat Cookie]

The deterrent to me would be at the admissions stage. I would want to goto the school with the highest board pass rate

I think the one flaw in your argument is the assumption that a med school has a large bearing on one's ability to pass standardized exams. I do not believe this to be so. To me it seems to be much more a function of the student's discipline, hard work and ability to learn. It is well known to all what material is covered on the USMLE...you could study the basic sciences on the moon...a school's faculty and curriculum only provide the basic framework upon which a student's own efforts must be structured.

In my opinion, the correlation of a lower-tiered school with lower pass rates has much more to do with the quality of student that is admitted in the first place, rather than the quality of instruction he receives along the way.

 

[whopper]

There was a study done that correlated GPAs and MCAT scores with actual performance and USMLE scores afterwards.

I wish I had the study on me or a link to it, I don't. Further I read this report about 6 years ago so take it for what its worth.

There was a definite linear correlation with MCAT and GPAs with performance in medical school and USMLE scores but that correlation basically disappeared after a GPA of about 3.3. I forgot the correlation with MCAT scores.

So if my memory is correct, that would indicate that schools would have something to do with it....If they accept students who's GPAs are 3.3 and above.

I can tell you from personal experience that when you're with less studious students, it does lower the bar. When grades are based off the average.--the curve so to speak, if that curve is very low, if gives you a false sense of security. It happened to me when I took the 14 week Kaplan course. Everyone in it were multiple failures..and they never studied. It made me think I was on top of my game becuase I was one of the best students in the course. In reality I was really only average.

and likewise when everyone around you is working hard, it makes you work hard.

There's also some very bad and good teachers. A friend of mine who went to a particular Carribean school told me his pathology class was basically BS and he wasn't taught anything.. He had to relearn his pathology during the 14 week Kaplan course as if he never took it.

 

[whopper]

Just an update...

I wrote a letter defending students of Carribean schools to WUBR in Boston, and they contacted me back. The producer of their show that covered Carribean schools and I will talk on the phone. Perhaps I will be on their show.

I don't know for certain if this will happen, but if it does, I will defend students of Carribean schools because I feel that the presentations in the articles in the above links unfairly present them.

If I get some response back, I'll keep everyone informed on what happens.

 

[McGillGrad]

Originally posted by whopper
Just an update...

I wrote a letter defending students of Carribean schools to WUBR in Boston, and they contacted me back. The producer of their show that covered Carribean schools and I will talk on the phone. Perhaps I will be on their show.

I don't know for certain if this will happen, but if it does, I will defend students of Carribean schools because I feel that the presentations in the articles in the above links unfairly present them.

If I get some response back, I'll keep everyone informed on what happens.

That is excellent. Please keep us updated.

 

[whopper]

I just got a phone call from the station's producer. I will be on today around 10:30 am. I don't know if I will be on the air live or if they will record, edit and then play my response. They already told me to have my thoughts down in advance so I can present myself well and in a easy to understand and quick report format manner.

I don't know if this will be available on the internet for later listening but I will report what happened.

 

[whopper]

OK...some updates.
- the show is supposed to be around noon
-they just talked to me and it was only for a few minutes. I didn't really get to talk about it as much other than tell these points which are basically just repeats of what I mentioned in other posts in this thread

-the articles from the CT newspaper are factually accurate but misleadingly present all foreign schools as bad
-There are foreign schools and I specifically mentioned SGU as one of them as having scores on par or even higher than many US schools
-DO schools do have more relaxed standards but also produce great physicians
-many of the nation's top physicians are IMGs or have endorsed some IMG schools such as SGU. E.g. Stephen Smith MD, a leading authority in HIV research, and currently one of the spearheads in the medical tort reform movement.

I don't live in the Boston area, but this is the station..

Attn: Here and Now
WBUR, 3rd Floor
890 Commonwealth Ave.
Boston, MA 02215

They also told me that I probably wasn't going to make it to the show because they had a lot of other material to use.

 

[stephew]

Originally posted by Meat Cookie
I think the one flaw in your argument is the assumption that a med school has a large bearing on one's ability to pass standardized exams. I do not believe this to be so. To me it seems to be much more a function of the student's discipline, hard work and ability to learn. It is well known to all what material is covered on the USMLE...you could study the basic sciences on the moon...a school's faculty and curriculum only provide the basic framework upon which a student's own efforts must be structured.

In my opinion, the correlation of a lower-tiered school with lower pass rates has much more to do with the quality of student that is admitted in the first place, rather than the quality of instruction he receives along the way.

I sort of disagree-a bit; while your conclusion is, i think, correct, regarding ardmissions standards, the truth is (and ive seen this from both a teaching and student perspective) that teaching guides students, and good teaching tells them what's important and helps conceptual understanding (and in that way, facilitates memorization of facts) I agree with my husband who's taught med students for many years- top students will do well no matter what, middle of the road ones will do an order better with good teaching and bottom ones stuggle most but have the most to gain by good teaching. Nearly by definition (and with admittedly some exceptions) IMGs fall into those 2nd and 3rd tiers. So I dont think the teaching is worth nothing- any first termer can tell you this is most unlike any prior education and one runs the risk of getting bogged down in endless information. Part of it is learning to learn and teaching can make a huge difference.