Radiobiology - ABR history

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On the topic of the workforce, we keep blowing past the fact that SCAROP is running an anti-trust racket against it's own trainees. When I explain this to non-medical friends, they think I am making it up because it seems so obviously illegal. There was an outpouring of support last summer from a huge range of radiation oncologists of all ages when I brought this up on Twitter. Another society even reached out to discuss solutions to this problem. I promise you that action on this issue would be nearly universally appreciated, maybe except by the chairs running the racket.

When I brought it up last summer, I had an exchange with Emily Wilson from ASTRO. She at first tried to lie about the SCAROP survey purchase policy, and those shenanigans were documented on Twitter at the time. Once we started having a real conversation about buying the survey, here is what she said to me on August 24, 2022:

"As you can imagine, the salary information was given by the institutions with the understanding that it would not be made public, so it will remain with SCAROP members. But as I mentioned, I am hoping that the SCAROP leaders will agree to creating some kind of executive summary with trends and regional snapshots. More to come after the next SCAROP leadership call next month. If there is specific information you are looking for in such an exec summary, let me know."

(Ha, yes Emily, I can imagine. This is one reason why we have anti-trust laws in the US. Anyway...)

I told her no. First of all, I couldn't even see the table of contents, so it was hard for me to pick out specific parts. But, really I wanted the whole report.

In December, this article was submitted to Advances: https://www.advancesradonc.org/article/S2452-1094(23)00039-8/pdf. It is supported by SCAROP, as stated.

This paper is making important claims. I know some of the authors and think they are good scientists, but this paper is unusual in that it so copiously reports salary difference risk ratios without a single absolute number in the entire manuscript. If I reviewed for ASTRO, I would have brought this up in review. I want to be clear that I do not refute the claims in the paper. However, if I was a graduating resident, these data in a SCAROP funded study that contains only risk ratios, I'd be a little curious about what was left out of this paper.

When I saw this article, I emailed Advances to see if I could have access to the data. It was in pre-publication and no data sharing statement was published. Im sure you will be shocked to hear the answer was no, I could not access the data.

An excerpt from the ASTRO Journals Data Sharing Policy: "In the interest of transparency and in support of Findable, Accessible, Interoperable, and Reusable (FAIR) data principles, however, authors are asked to include a data availability statement with their submitted work"

Okay, thats FAIR (ha puns). Here is the data availability statement from the paper, now fully published: "Research data are not available at this time."

Here are some examples of data sharing statements ASTRO gives, you decide if this is a high quality sharing statement: Data Sharing - ASTRO Journals - American Society for Radiation Oncology (ASTRO)

Do you think that anyone should accept these events as an honest response to a serious concern about wage fixing?

Keep in mind at the time, I was an ASTRO member who had put in many hours of volunteer effort and worked for the newly elected ASTRO president. That is probably as close as I will ever get to the ASTRO secret society and it wasn't enough.

We are all very smart adults here. How many "root cause analyses" of these inflection points need to point to leadership for people to accept that we have a leadership problem?

We have a leadership problem.

We have a leadership problem.

Maybe if I say it one more time someone will pop out of my mirror and help?
Someone just democratized the data. SCAROP 2021 survey posted in the business subforum

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Didn’t they assume Rvus per doc would increase yearly? (As number of docs increase and fractions/indications decrease)
They did several things.

Yes, that's one of their assumptions.

However, they started by assuming significantly fewer RadOncs in 2019 than any other source ever reported, and independently calculated 7,500 wRVUs/year using claims data (in line with the SCAROP report), then (and this is in the Methods) they "Googled it", and decided it should be 10,000 wRVUs.

So when calculating supply and demand, if you start with a couple hundred docs fewer than reality, generating a couple thousand more wRVUs/year than reality...your entire model is wrong. You're artificially (falsely) biasing the numbers MASSIVELY towards "no oversupply".

And then when the Wakely consultants (who, by the way, get an acknowledgement in the Workforce paper) do their ROCR math, they use the version of the model where the average wRVU/year/RadOnc is 14,000.

Has anyone ever hit at least 14,000 wRVUs in a year? I know a few of us have, myself included. But it's not common. And it's a ton of patients.

Good luck, America.
 
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I honestly can’t believe we all forgot that Amdur and Lee published an article in PRO like two months before the debacle questioning the usefulness and steps needed for initial certification in PRO. Implied it was actually detrimental to education as everyone had to teach to the test.


Wallner responded in same ePub.

2 months later half of that resident class is failed. Totally legit, imo.

let’s wonder what is more likely.1. A set of top tier med students turned residents got dumb for a day only or 2. A guy whose primary business went bankrupt and settled massive fraud cases, working for an organization that was already embroiled in public confidence crisis on the dx rad side, had his role called into question within that same org by a couple giants in the field so he threw a hissy fit a failed a bunch of said top tier brains.

The real issue was no one within the specialty leadership at the time had the will/backbone to stop it.
Can’t believe it took this long for this to show up in this thread. The rad bio exam is 97% useless trivia that will never ever factor into the clinical thought process of a practicing radiation oncologist. The physics portion is not nearly as bad but the useful part is still the minority. I could have done another 100 sims in the time i spent dedicated to studying for these exams and actually been a better doctor for it instead of memorizing trivia that I will never think about again from the moment I closed the exam. Angoff method can’t be valid if the exam content isn’t valid
 
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Dr. Keole, I appreciate you taking an interest. For a certain number of early- and mid-career folks on RO SDN, this episode really put a fine point on just how little the leadership in radiation oncology did not (and I would argue, does not) care about the future of trainees.

As you may be aware, SDN has been used for study prep (premeds, USMLEs, shelf exams, etc). Our very own rad onc forum had a mildly-active thread discussing the Physics and Rad Bio exams. Different threads would pop up year to year on how to study. One particular thread was started in 2013: Physics & Radbio

But on page 3 things start to heat up. You're a busy man, so I suspect you don't have time to read through much of it, but this is a time capsule about what trainees were experiencing in near-real time.

A number of posters shared their quartile scores for each section and overall exam result. It just didn't add up.

Just to save you a trip, here's the data from ABR about pass rates:
View attachment 374874

Notice anything funny?

I personally know of two residents who took this exam, failed one or both, later interviewed for jobs they wanted, and were later told they would not be candidates for employment because of a failed exam. Imagine that stress as a PGY4 with 200k+ loan debt in a poor job market. Both people eventually passed, and were employed elsewhere.

I've chatted with study group partners and other friends who did training in/around this era and are now enjoying the coerced participation longitudinal learning that is ABR's Maintenance of Certification (MOC). The contrast in questions between initial certification and MOC is laughable. I mean, it's truly remarkable. I don't want to spark the ire of ABR's legal eagles by sharing MOC content but suffice to say, the IC test is the Olympics, and MOC is remedial middle school math.

The ABR doesn't exist for radiation oncologists (or radiologists). It exists for a vague notion of 'the public good.' It cannot admit or accept flawed methodology in initial training questions or low-quality MOC content because that would call into question the very reason for it's existence. I get that. It'll never change.

I had great training in residency, and thankfully passed my boards. I'm gainfully employed. I love my job, and my patients.

But I'll never frame my ABR certificate because I don't believe it's worth the paper it's printed on.
Great post and a fair take.

I've spent a lot of time digesting this thread, reading articles sent to me, listening to Jason's podcast, and talking with people involved in this (including residents who failed a section of the 2018 exam, PDs, and people involved with the ABR). I wanted to make sure I heard all sides.

My conclusion is that this was a failure of the test and not the test-takers.

I feel sad for the dozens of 2018 residents who, IMO, failed the test only because they took it in 2018, as opposed to 2017 or 2019, or another other year. I am not sure I would have dealt with it as well as they did. Those I spoke with have moved forward and seem to be enjoying terrific careers, but this was still a very painful chapter in their lives. I personally cannot fault them for continuing to harbor bitterness. I really admired their maturity and I appreciated their reaching out to me.
 
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Nice. Now do ROCR with the same insight and sensitivity towards pp, in light of the recent SCAROP leaked release.

Mr Bean Reaction GIF
Right… def a little too late type of feeling when there are things we need to be fighting today.
 
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I took oral boards in person during that years academic cycle.

They used to give a little intro presentation and Wallner gave ours. He talked about conflicts and how we should tell them if we have an examiner where there might be a conflict. Then he made a joke about the job market and said something along the lines of “don’t worry, you all can just come work for me”.

I remember thinking “wow this dude is really professional, we are so blessed”.

Paul Wallner was coordinating the MD waiting room prior to my oral boards. A physicist examinee was lost and had to be redirected - as he was walking away, Wallner said "I hope he fails."

Definitely the moment that started changing my views on ABR/ASTRO (along with the rest of what is documented in this thread). Imagine what Wallner said behind closed doors with other supposed leaders and still remained in leadership all these years?
 
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Paul Wallner was coordinating the MD waiting room prior to my oral boards. A physicist examinee was lost and had to be redirected - as he was walking away, Wallner said "I hope he fails."

Definitely the moment that started changing my views on ABR/ASTRO (along with the rest of what is documented in this thread). Imagine what Wallner said behind closed doors with other supposed leaders and still remained in leadership all these years?
He's a piece of 💩 who happened to be in the right place at the right time. Story of the "leadership" in much of this field
 
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He's a piece of 💩 who happened to be in the right place at the right time. Story of the "leadership" in much of this field
Pieces of :1poop: everywhere are offended by this comparison!
 
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Paul Wallner was coordinating the MD waiting room prior to my oral boards. A physicist examinee was lost and had to be redirected - as he was walking away, Wallner said "I hope he fails."

Definitely the moment that started changing my views on ABR/ASTRO (along with the rest of what is documented in this thread). Imagine what Wallner said behind closed doors with other supposed leaders and still remained in leadership all these years?
Heard him say stuff similar to this many times through the years. He used to write mean spirited, judge-y opinion pieces on the old radiotherapy.com (old 21st Century) website. I don’t want to pull a Kanye, but Paul Wallner hates other rad oncs. He’s wouldn’t know nuance if it bit him in the butt. His lack of broad and forward thinking rad onc knowledge has hampered our field on numerous identifiable occasions. He’s an IMRT Luddite… unforgivable.
 
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He does have a sweet vacation house. Just property tax and insurance comes out to 300k/yearly- that’s why he needs the job.
Lol. When winning so hard by sheer luck becomes confused with Skill and merit..

Welcome to radiation oncology.
 
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Since they closed the other thread, I just have to post this:

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This clown (Peter Ubel) who said we get paid "too much" as physicians (and who happened to complete the coursework for MD and thus use the term, but really is a chronic business professor leaching off Duke) has now pivoted to 'its the system bro.'

Its always been, and always will be, the system. We, the pawns (MD, NP, RN, etc labor) are just pieces on a chessboard and are played by the players: UHC, Aetna, BCBS, DrugCo, etc.

In the case of radonc, it was those who held the reins of power (academic leadership) who used it for greed and control, and ultimately have ruined our specialty probably for good. All the greed of pp owners couldn't sniff the butt of the academic leadership that ruined our metrics.
 
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Lol. When winning so hard by sheer luck becomes confused with Skill and merit..

Welcome to radiation oncology.
Paul Wallner was coordinating the MD waiting room prior to my oral boards. A physicist examinee was lost and had to be redirected - as he was walking away, Wallner said "I hope he fails."

Definitely the moment that started changing my views on ABR/ASTRO (along with the rest of what is documented in this thread). Imagine what Wallner said behind closed doors with other supposed leaders and still remained in leadership all these years?
Septermber [sic] 1997
Economic Observations

By Paul E. Wallner, D.O., FACR
Several months ago, when Chris Rose decided to "retire" as the economics columnist for this web-site, he raised the issue of continuity with me. Later, he and Peter Blitzer pervailed [sic] upon me to actually accept. So be it! This represents my first "toe in the water," for this type of venture, so criticism will be much appreciated (constructive, please!). First, I must offer Chris my thanks, for his confidence and mentoring, for doing a fantastic job with the column, and for "telling it like it is" even when his position was unpopular. Chris will make a great president of ASTRO, and will serve his ENTIRE constituency with distinction.

Since I have been hanging around for quite a while, but not be known by many of our colleagues, some introduction may be appropriate. This is all the more important, since any "observer" of the economic landscape brings certain biases and positions to the table. I began radiation oncology practice in 1972, when we were radiation therapists, jobs were plentiful, and we were seeing an explosive growth in training programs. My first practice experience was running a department in the Army (in retrospect, those days look very good now!). Later, I went into full-time academic practice. In 1979, I ventured to New Jersey to join a group at Cooper Hospital/University Medical Center. We are something of hybrid organization, in that Cooper is the core clinical hospital for Robert Wood Johnson Medical School at Camden (the former Rutgers Medical School), with almost 200 full-time salaried faculty, but WE receive NO support from the medical school, and are entirely fee-for-service. We do have a residency program at Cooper. The group manages another community hospital program, and has three free-standing facilities. From a radiation oncology perspective, I suppose that qualifies me as "everyman." My issues and problems are your issues and problems! For several years, I have served on the ASTRO Economics Committee, and have been privileged to serve as the ASTRO representative to the RUC and CPT Committees. This year, I served as President of CARROS. To make a long story shorter, although you may not like what I have to say, or agree with my conclusions, I have seen it all, and "really do feel your pain!"

Once we get past the preliminaries above, I will try to keep the column relatively brief, pointed, and free from an unacceptable amount of sermonizing. I will not be as pithy, lucid, or erudite as Chris, and there will be few, if any, Talmudic/Biblical references.

The most pressing economic issue over the past summer was the effort to redefine the three weekly treatment management codes (77420, 425, 430),as REQUIRED by the RUC. In the absence of our willingness to do this voluntarily, there were rumblings of 20-30% cuts in the work values. A task force representing ACR, ACRO, ASTRO, AFROC, CARROS, and the physicists met/communicated regularly, and came up with a formula by which we could reduce reliance on technical factors to define our work, increase use of E/M terms (that the RUC members wanted), but retained the "uniqueness" of our specialty. This work product was presented to the CPT Editorial Panel on August 8. The Panel generally liked our solutions, but requested that we try to simplify and shorten the material. Also, they raised the issue of consideration of a SINGLE code for weekly management created by weighting our current work. The theory was that since approximately 80% of our charges for weekly management are now complex, why did we need three codes. This is a very seductive concept, since it would significantly reduce some of the burdensome documentation the original plan would have required. The task force is reviewing the proposal carefully before we respond.

A second summer issue was work with the Medicare Carrier Medical Directors to develop new guidelines for charges. To put the issue gracefully, the CMDs are fed up with what they are getting from us. They want it to stop, and were prepared to unilaterally write new payment policy that would have been severely restrictive. After what the diplomats term "frank discussions'" the CMDs agreed to let us try to rewrite the "User's Guide" so that our ability to game the system will be limited. We are working on that document now. BE AWARE that some past billing practices will no longer be acceptable! This may have a dramatic effect on some practices, but the alternative seems to be having non-radiation oncologists do the deed, or perhaps, a few of our colleagues playing golf/tennis, etc in a federal correctional facility!

The last, very complicated and divisive issue I will discuss at this time, is the practice expense initiative. You should all be aware that the relative value system totals are derived from work, practice expense, and professional liability. Work is calculated by the RUC, based on generally known methodology. Liability expense is a "pass-through". Practice expense had been based on historical charges, but Congress mandated that this be changed to "resource-based" methodology, similar to the work units. Various panels have been working for almost two years, but every attempt to reach a solution to the problem of acceptable calculations has been flawed. In typical fashion, HCFA was REQUIRED to begin the new policy 1/1/98 (now delayed to 1/1/99). The calculations them made were based on flawed assumptions and a flawed methodology, producing additive error. The formula would have increased the professional fees of radiation oncologists in the free-standing setting, and significantly reduced the payment to hospital based practitioners. An alternate method of calculation which would retain the relative value parity has been proposed to HCFA by ACR/ASTRO/ACRO/CARROS/ABS. This proposal would essentially protect the majority of our colleagues. Although AFROC has refrained from lending its organizational support to the proposal, and indeed, seems to be building a war chest to fight the compromise, I STRONGLY URGE all involved to think of the long-term consequences of careful investigation of our practices and practice policies. None of us want an IRS-like audit of the entire specialty, or our individual practices. The charge that we are caving in to the diagnostic radiologists is spurious. For the last eight years, they have been sliding, while our revenues as a specialty have been increasing, and they have still been steadfast in their support.

Well, enough for issue #1. I can be reached at FAX 609-365-8504, or e-mail at the address shown below. I have not given my phone number (in a sophmoric [sic] attempt to discourage angry phone calls), but obviously, I am in the ASTRO Directory (and the phone book!). Feel free to complain, comment, question, or suggest topics for future columns.
email: [email protected]
 
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Yuck.

The fake humble brag is nauseating. And to know this guy cleaned up literally from the lowliest position shows you that this game has nothing to do with merit or skill. Just dumb luck.
 
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All the greed of pp owners couldn't sniff the butt of the academic leadership that ruined our metrics.

"You can hypofractionate if you want, but you will hypofractionate your paycheck."

You may have heard this before, am I right?

I agree that stuff like this is small potatoes.
 
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"You can hypofractionate if you want, but you will hypofractionate your paycheck."

You may have heard this before, am I right?

I agree that stuff like this is small potatoes.
That’s funny
 
Although AFROC has refrained from lending its organizational support to the proposal, and indeed, seems to be building a war chest to fight the compromise, I STRONGLY URGE all involved to think of the long-term consequences of careful investigation of our practices and practice policies. None of us want an IRS-like audit of the entire specialty, or our individual practices.

MAN.
 
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He and the rest of the clowns at 21C should probably be in jail. Connie is just so nice in person, but dude, you with the wrong group of homies bro.
 
He and the rest of the clowns at 21C should probably be in jail. Connie is just so nice in person, but dude, you with the wrong group of homies bro.

"In this case, Dr. Ting will collect more than $7 million for doing the right thing."

So the wrong thing was done by who exactly?
 
Ding Ting Ding

Thats a winner. Next time you're at a conference and see a 21C/Genesis/WhatevertheFPE Corp leadership doc, just be sure to mention this case and watch their eyes water.
Cost of doing business and nothing to see here folks. Like when JPM got caught laundering cartel money and they got a “fine”. Everyone got paid, nobody went to jail, all good crony capitalism where the rules apply to you but not to them. The good thing is these same people are bringing the proton-less poor florida folk a “concierge” experience. A space of dire need will the filled. The grift continues. We’re just doing business here. Ain’t nothing to see here.
 
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America.. F yeah!
Cost of doing business and nothing to see here folks. Like when JPM got caught laundering cartel money and they got a “fine”. Everyone got paid, nobody went to jail, all good crony capitalism where the rules apply to you but not to them. The good thing is these same people are bringing the proton-less poor florida folk a “concierge” experience. A space of dire need will the filled. The grift continues. We’re just doing business here. Ain’t nothing to see here.

Cynicism is like included free with all Radiation Oncology certificates, injected right into the veins... or.. something like that.


Shot Nurse GIF
 
Speaking of.. MOC and Robber Richie Rich Dick Baron (ABIM) on Healthcare Unfiltered podcast dropped.


Time to go listen to the nonsense.. watch the weasel dance.
 
Just listened to the podcast.

DICK BARON COMPARED MOC TO IRS and the "neutral" interviewer told him DON'T SAY THAT YOU'LL LOSE

I bursted out laughing. Yeah, Aaron squealing doesn't come across well. But the bs answers provided by Robber Baron just are insane.
 
Image is everything

Unfortunately, the losing message was presented much better.

Can’t be calling people Geezers… lol. Should have OK Boomered him instead
 
Standard Corporate Automaton BS

The interviewer did a great job of calling out the nonsense.

Enormous sums for a small cadre of people to abuse the profession. Support NBPAS and you will see ABIM -vanish- once NBPAS gets a solid foothold. The critical mass event is slowly approaching ABIM..

"Our constituents are not only physicians.. the hospitals..." OUCH.

"Do you have any Level I evidence" Aaron should have let him stumble on this questions but jumped in (shut up dude and let Baron hang himself!). Major MISS here. HUGE. Baron was probably mouthing "thank you Aaron for saving me" under his breath..
 
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But at the end of the day, optics and storytelling will always win.

That's good. But to really become the master you have to learn to trick people into believing evidence that is not there through optics and storytelling. Convince people optics and storytelling ARE data and facts.

Well how do you know that's the way it really is?
It just is! Everyone knows it! It's settled! Only stupid people would think anything different!
 
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I wouldn’t invoke the Romans. The common thread here is a leadership acting in its own interest not that of their members. More analogous to sleazy African dictators. Why did Michalski want to be president? To celebrate himself vs advance his own interests, but certianly not as a steward of the specialty.
 
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I wouldn’t invoke the Romans. The common thread here is a leadership acting in its own interest not that of their members. More analogous to sleazy African dictators. Why did Michalski want to be president? To celebrate himself vs advance his own interests, but certianly not as a steward of the specialty.
For the same reason so many careerists seek it out, because they have “worked so hard”, because their amazing career with 300 “publications” needs just one more title and honour, because it is “their turn”, blah blah. What exactly did the dude do? Absolutely nothing but that is exactly what the previous “leaders” have done too (standard of vacuous vapid mediocrity). The department is now bragging about the “best leadership” in the field in the department. This is truly some 1984 stuff where truth is what you say it is. War is peace.
 
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For the same reason so many careerists seek it out, because they have “worked so hard”, because their amazing career with 300 “publications” needs just one more title and honour, because it is “their turn”, blah blah. What exactly did the dude do? Absolutely nothing but that is exactly what the previous “leaders” have done too (standard of vacuous vapid mediocrity). The department is now bragging about the “best leadership” in the field in the department. This is truly some 1984 stuff where truth is what you say it is. War is peace.
Said individual is a narcissist whose greatest clinical and research accomplishment was giving a talk at ASTRO for being lead in a negative trial.

However... A truly ideal person however to represent ASTRO... in having 1 job inside the institution where that person finished training at, brownnosing his way to being #2, and ultimately having to accept being forever unable to become a Chairman anywhere because the other grifters know the standards are just a wee bit higher.
 
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Getting a bit philosophical here but the "great" chairmen and ASTRO leaders of the recent era - what makes any of them more valuable or meaningful than Joe Schmo community radonc (presuming not a crap doctor)? How many families and lives has Joe Schmo touched/improved over the course of the career vs the academician? Who made a bigger impact?
300 publications over a career vs 300+ patients treated every year for 30 years
 
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Getting a bit philosophical here but the "great" chairmen and ASTRO leaders of the recent era - what makes any of them more valuable or meaningful than Joe Schmo community radonc (presuming not a crap doctor)? How many families and lives has Joe Schmo touched/improved over the course of the career vs the academician? Who made a bigger impact?
300 publications over a career vs 300+ patients treated every year for 30 years
This is why I left "regular" academics. Because of consolidation, the word "academics" for RadOnc jobs has lost a lot of meaning, but you guys know what I mean.

I'm MD-PhD / Holman. I had grants/fellowships and...I actually genuinely don't know how many papers I currently have.

At some point in residency, it started to become very clear that almost none of my faculty wanted to see patients. They actually put a lot of effort into making sure their time with patients was as minimal as possible.

That's not what I thought this was. That's not why I got into this psychopath industry.

We can form the argument of "impact" in many ways, but I know how many patients I've treated in the last year, and I know how many various well-known academics have treated in the last year...

And if I had to go back in time and do it again, I'd walk away 100/100 times again.
 
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And if I had to go back in time and do it again, I'd walk away 100/100 times again.
Man, I remember looking at the Vanderbilt alumni page a couple years ago (I was phone interviewing a couple people, both outstanding of course).

More freaking stellar early career physician scientists in the past ten years than you could imagine....almost none doing medical science.

I just hope that some of the leadership recognizes this travesty.
 
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Man, I remember looking at the Vanderbilt alumni page a couple years ago (I was phone interviewing a couple people, both outstanding of course).

More freaking stellar early career physician scientists in the past ten years than you could imagine....almost none doing medical science.

I just hope that some of the leadership recognizes this travesty.
Anecdotally, virtually all of my mstp classmates from medschool took academic positions after residency, although not all stayed. radonc is different.
 
Post-Wallner era ABR update:


The ABR continually reviews these issues and how to address them. Recently, the Board of Trustees unanimously supported a reprioritization of exam content to focus on clinical relevance in the qualifying exams. This includes limiting questions regarding clinical trial details to those that are paradigm shifting or practice changing.

...and just like that, the bottom-of-the-barrel SOAPers will have the same (or perhaps higher!) board pass rate as compared to the hotshots of the 2010s era.
 
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