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I missed CE and liability insurance. I jumped onto my excel spreadsheet that I made to compare my new job in NE for what it would be worth in CO and just replaced the numbers of my current job to those for the averages of a new vet in CO. But I didn't have CE and liability. That would squeeze that left over money pretty tight, not much left over at all.

Another question: is there an age where it isn't economically feasible to become a vet in general? So, for example, I was pointing out how mid to late thirties may be the age in which I would personal give up becoming a vet because of how much less time there is to pay off debt/save for retirement and that it would push retirement age into later 70s. Would there be an age in which the debt would extend past your death? (phrasing this question was really hard, by the way)
 
battie said:
I missed CE and liability insurance. I jumped onto my excel spreadsheet that I made to compare my new job in NE for what it would be worth in CO and just replaced the numbers of my current job to those for the averages of a new vet in CO. But I didn't have CE and liability. That would squeeze that left over money pretty tight, not much left over at all.

Another question: is there an age where it isn't economically feasible to become a vet in general? So, for example, I was pointing out how mid to late thirties may be the age in which I would personal give up becoming a vet because of how much less time there is to pay off debt/save for retirement and that it would push retirement age into later 70s. Would there be an age in which the debt would extend past your death? (phrasing this question was really hard, by the way)
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I think thats a question that everyone would answer differently.
 
CaperCon coming up in September and I have no idea what to wear. Ideas are: Erza Scarlet (the hakama outfit), genderbent Natsu Dragneel, genderbent Daisuke Motomiya, Black Widow, Sailor Mars (assuming I can find the costume at my parents' house) or Dutch from Killjoys....
 
battie said:
Thanks very much for the info. Can you think of stuff I might not be considering when factoring in everything together? I'm having a real hard time understanding where the extra difficulty comes in for vets. Like I said, I did a quick mock up of what monthly expenses would be for my home state and while it wouldn't be cushy living by any means, I was coming up with a little extra cash at the end of the month.
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This is my portion of the budget for recurring monthly bills (if I were living alone without my SO).

Rent including heat 900
Electricity 50
Internet 80
Renter's insurance 10
Car payment 350
Gas and tolls 300
Car insurance 65
Health insurance premium (****ty insurance through work) 60
Dental insurance 10
Disability 100
Cell 50
Food/dining out/groceries 400
Pets 100

~2500



This doesn't include any clothing, amazon purchases, car tax, costs associated with hobbies, AAA/costco memberships, gifts, any other incidentals ($4000 in dental costs for one broken tooth, oil changes, busted car tires, furniture, medical bills because like I said I have ****ty insurance, etc...), or AVMA dues, VIN membership, and other association dues that are not paid for by my job. I get $2000 in CE from my employer but my DEA license/state license is not paid for.

And you can't live like a poor stingy student forever even if you delay having kids or buying a house or whatever. You get nieces and nephews that need to be visited and birthday presents, friends get married and you have weddings to attend, people die and you need to travel to funerals.


I'm pretty sure I ate up way more than the extra you calculated left over. I make it work because I have a SO who might as well be a spouse because we share all finances.

Including everything we spent over the past 11 months, our monthly spending averaged $5000/month for all costs for the two of us (student loans not included). If this were just me without the SO, it would probably be around $3000. We do have a date night or two each week where we go out to eat (nothing fancy, no drinks ever), but other than that we live a pretty frugal lifestyle. No cable, we don't go out for coffee, we pack lunches daily, neither of is have hobbies, etc... Like we never go shopping for things that are not absolutely necessary. No one who sees our lifestyle would believe that we have two doctorates between us. I'm currently not putting any money in savings/retirement.

I've been paying an average of $2500 per month on student loans. That means our average monthly spending has been $7500 per month. This is only possible because we earn a combined income of $150-160k and my SO has sizeable savings so we have a safety net even if I put all my extra money in my student loans.
 
It looks like it's perspective to me then. This is how my immediate family has lived for a lot of my life probably, about 75-80%. Most of our "extra" stuff has come from help from my mom's parents and other relatives (like my grandma paid for my horseback riding lessons through middle and high school and I get XBOXLive and 98% of my games for christmas; I had to pay for all my stuff after I got my first job at ten; etc). So I think my perspective is biased because this isn't really frugal living to me. This is "normal".

Thanks, guys. I really want to see this study this girl is talking about now. Since she says it's through the AVMA, I would be very surprised if it were this doom and gloom seeing as how they haven't been in that realm from the economics stuff I've read. But you never know.
 
I'm juggling truck payment, mortgage, etc on my own while still saving some and paying some towards loans. So far things haven't been too rough but I'm not a fancy person Just got internet two months ago, haven't had cable In years so I don't even miss it. Work pays for cell phone, pet care, gas, insurances, which really helps. But it's doable and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by doing it alone. Big splurges are still a stretch since I'm trying to build up my savings a bit more, but I don't have to think twice about dinner out and things like that.
 
battie said:
It looks like it's perspective to me then. This is how my immediate family has lived for a lot of my life probably, about 75-80%. Most of our "extra" stuff has come from help from my mom's parents and other relatives (like my grandma paid for my horseback riding lessons through middle and high school and I get XBOXLive and 98% of my games for christmas; I had to pay for all my stuff after I got my first job at ten; etc). So I think my perspective is biased because this isn't really frugal living to me. This is "normal".
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I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but sure... I don't think you can judge from my budget what kind of lifestyle I'm living (esp provided that I live in a fairly high cost of living area. Like, a $150k house in Fort Collins would be worth at least double that here).

Also, not everyone has relatives helping... And I'm not sure how considering horseback riding and buying game consoles as "extras" would ever be considered frugal. I think that puts you at fairly privileged. And yes, if that is the set of lenses you're looking through, you are right in that you are quite biased but not in the direction you're thinking.

Plus, my point wasn't that I was a starving struggling vet. I'm financially quite stable. And if it weren't for my student loans, I would even consider myself kinda wealthy (for a vet) even in my area.

That is why out of the $3000/mo spendings, maybe $300 are for nice things that aren't necessities. When I work/commute 17hrs per day, I do try to treat myself on my days off... you know, like a trip to chipotle and if we're feeling fancy, an Olive Garden or so. For my 130 mile daily commute in New England weather, the luxury of a new reliable car (albeit economy class car with no features) is worth it for me for the extra $200 per month over a used beater even if for fuel efficiency'a sake and the assurance that I can make it to work every day. I really haven't spent much at all on furniture as I mooched most of my used ones from others, but I did get to splurge on a $200 mattress/bedframe from Walmart so I'm not sleeping on the floor. So yeah, I'm totally comfortable, and I can live day to day not worried about money as all my needs are met and I can even afford some 'luxuries'. Perspectives, I guess.

But if I took out my bf out of the picture, and my pay was cut to the average salary (which was what my first ****ty job paid me), even if I took away the $300/mo of luxuries, I would not be able to live on the budget you proposed. I pay about $400/mo on just health/dental related costs not covered by my insurance. After taxes and insurance was taken out, my net pay for my $66k/year salary was about $3500 per month. I would either only be paying the minimal amount on PAYE for my student loans, or as a 30 year old doctor, i wouldn't be able to have my health needs met without sharing a cheap apt with a roommate. If you do pay minimal on your student loans, everything is totally doable. That would be $2000 a month I could spend on something else! I would personally just be worried about what that means in the future. So how doable things are really depends on how much debt you have, and how much faith you have in the fed government to not **** you up with debt that you balloon to 300-500k at retirement time.
 
battie said:
It looks like it's perspective to me then. This is how my immediate family has lived for a lot of my life probably, about 75-80%. Most of our "extra" stuff has come from help from my mom's parents and other relatives (like my grandma paid for my horseback riding lessons through middle and high school and I get XBOXLive and 98% of my games for christmas; I had to pay for all my stuff after I got my first job at ten; etc). So I think my perspective is biased because this isn't really frugal living to me. This is "normal".

Thanks, guys. I really want to see this study this girl is talking about now. Since she says it's through the AVMA, I would be very surprised if it were this doom and gloom seeing as how they haven't been in that realm from the economics stuff I've read. But you never know.
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you're making a lot of assumptions here.
 
battie said:
So I've gotten into a debate with a girl on the APVMA facebook page (of course I did) about the condition of vet med. For once, it's actually someone I think is too doom and gloom. The main reason is that she is saying that she works for the AVMA looking at statistics and most of the vets who wrote in for this survey are saying that they're basically destitute: they wouldn't be able to eat without their spouse sort of thing. Now, while I'm all for economic awareness in vet med, that seems rather far fetched to me. I even broke it down for my state's average cost of living, starting salary for vets, etc, and I wasn't getting anywhere near "verge of starvation poor". More over, the ten to twelve vets I've worked for are no where near that situation either. It's just super hard for me to grasp that.

So question: Of those of you who are now vets, would you guys be unable to afford necessities such as food or housing if you were without a spouse? Those without a spouse, do you feel like you're suffering compared to those with spouses?
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I read the discussion over in APVMA. I wouldn't be surprised if her survey is accurate and true, to be honest. I am not out of school yet, but looking at my debt and my prospective income, plus living expenses and loans, I won't be able to make enough to make ends meet without doing income based repayment. And I get that IBR sounds like a brilliant plan and seems like it will just work out great, but it really isn't a solution. All that will happen is that my loan will continue to increase in how much I actually owe because I will never be able to pay on the principle. Then in 20-25 years I will have to pay taxes on some $350,000. I don't know about you, but there is no way that I can save up the $$ needed to pay off those taxes.

So, I would not be the least bit surprised if there isn't some accuracy to what she is stating. Of course that won't apply to everyone, but people should be aware that they could end up in that type of situation. Basically, many vets would not be able to survive if it weren't for IBR. However, IBR really isn't some amazing, cool solution either.
 
Just to chime in here: we have to construct a budget for our practice management course as third year students. If it were not for repayment plans like IBR or PAYE, I would not be able to afford food. I would actually be in a situation where I'd have to decide between being homeless or affording food. Now, this is because I want to pursue an internship and residency after graduating -- I'd be much better off if I went straight into the workforce as a GP, but that doesn't make the harsh reality any less harsh.

I think REPAYE will be helpful down the road, but it's still a bandaid on a massive wound.
 
DVMDream said:
I read the discussion over in APVMA. I wouldn't be surprised if her survey is accurate and true, to be honest. I am not out of school yet, but looking at my debt and my prospective income, plus living expenses and loans, I won't be able to make enough to make ends meet without doing income based repayment. And I get that IBR sounds like a brilliant plan and seems like it will just work out great, but it really isn't a solution. All that will happen is that my loan will continue to increase in how much I actually owe because I will never be able to pay on the principle. Then in 20-25 years I will have to pay taxes on some $350,000. I don't know about you, but there is no way that I can save up the $$ needed to pay off those taxes.

So, I would not be the least bit surprised if there isn't some accuracy to what she is stating. Of course that won't apply to everyone, but people should be aware that they could end up in that type of situation. Basically, many vets would not be able to survive if it weren't for IBR. However, IBR really isn't some amazing, cool solution either.
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As an aside, the current executive budget proposal, as I understand it, is to get rid of that tax as if it were income (but only if you do paye over the new proposed limit of 25 years) Not that it's going to pass, but it's at least on the radar to be fixed by the federal government (which is not saying a whole lot lol, but it's something)
 
Minnerbelle said:
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but sure... I don't think you can judge from my budget what kind of lifestyle I'm living (esp provided that I live in a fairly high cost of living area. Like, a $150k house in Fort Collins would be worth at least double that here).

Also, not everyone has relatives helping... And I'm not sure how considering horseback riding and buying game consoles as "extras" would ever be considered frugal. I think that puts you at fairly privileged. And yes, if that is the set of lenses you're looking through, you are right in that you are quite biased but not in the direction you're thinking.
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They're "extra" as in my immediate family didn't pay for them. My relatives did as gifts, something I wouldn't have had otherwise. If it hadn't been for extended family, I never would have met a horse or had a gaming console at all as my parents couldn't afford them when I was younger and I certainly couldn't afford them as a teenager, among other things that would throw me into the privileged category. If we didn't have relatives helping, we'd be in a different situation with just the cost of daycare throughout our childhood alone, not to mention the "extras". We simply wouldn't have had it. That's also what I meant about being frugal. My parents, sister, and I don't buy unnecessary things, particularly in the last year, and we didn't count on relatives gifting either. If they sent something, they sent something. If not, then they didn't. We're not going to turn down gifts. Most anything superfluous we've gotten didn't come from our paychecks simply because it wasn't an option. We don't buy things unless we can pay for them with cash upfront, with the obvious exception of my parents' house.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that you're a poor starving vet at all. That wasn't my intention. I don't associate frugal with poor in any way. I apologize if it seems that way.

What you brought up is a lot of what I had planned out for. I even mentioned in my comment back to Dyachei that the addition of liability insurance and CE that it did cut very close to the line. But nothing has gone way over the budget, either. The budget you mentioned, which I am assuming is the one I posted on the Facebook page, may very well not work for your area. I don't know where you live or what any of the stats are there. But it could work for my area of Colorado depending on the person's situation.

dyachei said:
you're making a lot of assumptions here.
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Could you expand? I'm really trying to get my head wrapped around this. This is the first I've heard of single vets needing to chose between having food and having a place to live. I understand we've all gone through these forums saying that it's expensive as heck and that it's a huge financial commitment, but I've never seen/had this discussion before. I like to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.


DVMDream said:
I read the discussion over in APVMA. I wouldn't be surprised if her survey is accurate and true, to be honest. I am not out of school yet, but looking at my debt and my prospective income, plus living expenses and loans, I won't be able to make enough to make ends meet without doing income based repayment. And I get that IBR sounds like a brilliant plan and seems like it will just work out great, but it really isn't a solution. All that will happen is that my loan will continue to increase in how much I actually owe because I will never be able to pay on the principle. Then in 20-25 years I will have to pay taxes on some $350,000. I don't know about you, but there is no way that I can save up the $$ needed to pay off those taxes.

So, I would not be the least bit surprised if there isn't some accuracy to what she is stating. Of course that won't apply to everyone, but people should be aware that they could end up in that type of situation. Basically, many vets would not be able to survive if it weren't for IBR. However, IBR really isn't some amazing, cool solution either.
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That's why I came here and asked. Even with knowing the income:debt ratio and looking into it, I've never heard from a vet that I've worked with or on here say that they would be starving if it wasn't for their significant other. I quite possibly might have missed it being mentioned on here for sure, though. And it was hard for me to believe without seeing the survey itself. I'm not a fan of being told something without the information being presented.
 
I think you totes missed the financial woes thread from previously where a lot of this was discussed. I think I outlined all the costs I have associated with practicing on there.

Like I said, as long as you are on IBR/PAYE, you shouldn't have to choose between eating and having a roof over your head (though with some residents/interns it still gets dangerously close sometimes). That is the whole purpose of those programs. It allows you to keep 85-90% of your discretionary income for living expenses, sheltered from student loan payments. But this means that it doesn't freaking matter how much debt you take on in terms of being able to survive over the next 20-25 years without any consequences. The problem is what happens because you are choosing to survive instead of go hungry due to your loan payments. Of the people I know, only a minority of people <3 years out have actually made a dent in their loans. A majority have had their loans actually get bigger. And it will likely continue to get bigger throughout their career. Who knows what that actually means come retirement time. Unless all the vets you know are people who have graduated after 2009, I wouldn't put much stock in their financial situations. Things have changed a lot since then.

http://www.forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php?threads/Financial-woes.1127131/
 
battie said:
So I've gotten into a debate with a girl on the APVMA facebook page (of course I did) about the condition of vet med. For once, it's actually someone I think is too doom and gloom. The main reason is that she is saying that she works for the AVMA looking at statistics and most of the vets who wrote in for this survey are saying that they're basically destitute: they wouldn't be able to eat without their spouse sort of thing. Now, while I'm all for economic awareness in vet med, that seems rather far fetched to me. I even broke it down for my state's average cost of living, starting salary for vets, etc, and I wasn't getting anywhere near "verge of starvation poor". More over, the ten to twelve vets I've worked for are no where near that situation either. It's just super hard for me to grasp that.

So question: Of those of you who are now vets, would you guys be unable to afford necessities such as food or housing if you were without a spouse? Those without a spouse, do you feel like you're suffering compared to those with spouses?
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I followed that but resisted the urge to chime in, and now I can't even go back to read it lol. Her post was based off of extremely biased information. After all, if you were feeling destitute or truly struggling that much, you'd probably be more likely to answer a survey about finances and say you were living in a box. At least I would. I highly, highly doubt there are that many starving vets out there as this girl claims. I think she feels authoritative and over-confident because of her internship tbh. It was nice of her to want to give advice, but her delivery made me eye-roll. There's a difference between 'struggling to make ends meet' and "starving."

In my personal experience, I've worked for a vet who raised 4 kids on her own (all now in college) and wasn't starving. I'll note that she graduated before serious debt was a thing and inherited her house. But her paycheck was pretty sad, and she was able to raise and send 4 kids to college. My current boss regularly complains about her debt. She's married to a school janitor, and her kids have 4-wheelers (a luxury item to me) and private schooling.

Side rant: The APVMA page either needs to be shut down or someone needs to take the reigns. It has turned into "HOW DO I VMCAS PLS HALP" when it used to be a good resource for parents of high schoolers and almost a support group for pre-vets. I'm seeing incorrect advice given daily, and Mr. VMCAS is never on there to set things straight. If I were to be in charge of that page, I would literally ban VMCAS questions. I would also consider banning anything along the lines of "I only have a 3.6, should I give up?"
Nalikti said:
I saw that post, too. I honestly don't know why I continue to follow that page; it is literally just people giving poor, uninformed advice and asking the same six or so questions over and over again. It is terrible.

I can't answer your questions obviously, but I just want to throw out there that I completely agree with your comments over there. Being aware of the financials of the vet med profession is absolutely important, but I think she is going too far with her assumptions that no pre-vet ever has actually considered it or is 100% completely financially naïve with loans. I was on board with her original post cautioning people, but then... she just kinda derailed into outright scaring people off by making it sound like vets are absolutely destitute and can't afford to even feed themselves or pay rent and were "starving". I would imagine that those are very extreme cases that don't apply to the majority of graduates. Or at least that's what I have gathered from new vets, anyway.
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That's exactly what I wanted to say on that post. What makes her think that all pre-vets are bumbling fools and she's privy to special info? Her post was pretty arrogant.
dyachei said:
It would be very difficult to make ends meet if I did not have my spouse's income.

I feel like this ignores the part-time jobs and low paying jobs people feel forced to take due to their loan situation. The unemployment rate isn't higher because there is *some* demand. It's just that not all jobs are good jobs.
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Making ends meet would be difficult, definitely. But would you literally be struggling to feed yourself? To me, that was the statement that really made me question why this girl was posting this information and how accurate it actually was. Living frugally =/= needing a soup kitchen to survive day to day.
 
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pp9 said:
I followed that but resisted the urge to chime in, and now I can't even go back to read it lol. Her post was based off of extremely biased information. After all, if you were feeling destitute or truly struggling that much, you'd probably be more likely to answer a survey about finances and say you were living in a box. At least I would. I highly, highly doubt there are that many starving vets out there as this girl claims. I think she feels authoritative and over-confident because of her internship tbh. It was nice of her to want to give advice, but her delivery made me eye-roll. There's a difference between 'struggling to make ends meet' and "starving."

In my personal experience, I've worked for a vet who raised 4 kids on her own (all now in college) and wasn't starving. I'll note that she graduated before serious debt was a thing and inherited her house. But her paycheck was pretty sad, and she was able to raise and send 4 kids to college. My current boss regularly complains about her debt. She's married to a school janitor, and her kids have 4-wheelers (a luxury item to me) and private schooling.

Side rant: The APVMA page either needs to be shut down or someone needs to take the reigns. It has turned into "HOW DO I VMCAS PLS HALP" when it used to be a good resource for parents of high schoolers and almost a support group for pre-vets. I'm seeing incorrect advice given daily, and Mr. VMCAS is never on there to set things straight. If I were to be in charge of that page, I would literally ban VMCAS questions. I would also consider banning anything along the lines of "I only have a 3.6, should I give up?"

That's exactly what I wanted to say on that post. What makes her think that all pre-vets are bumbling fools and she's privy to special info? Her post was pretty arrogant.

Making ends meet would be difficult, definitely. But would you literally be struggling to feed yourself? To me, that was the statement that really made me question why this girl was posting this information and how accurate it actually was. Living frugally =/= needing a soup kitchen to survive day to day.
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Making ends meet to me means paying all my bills and buying food. Without my spouses income, I'd be doing paye or ibr, not making a dent in my loans and having to deal with a lump sum payment in 25 years that I probably won't be able to make or going into credit card debt. I mean, I could live with my parents if I weren't married, but that gets old fast and it puts a burden on them. It literally means that if you got sick or hurt or your car broke down, you might not be able to buy groceries without further debt.

And you're wrong. People aren't more likely to take the survey if they are destitute. They are less likely because many feel ashamed of their situation.

If you're going to argue this at least do your own research instead of acting from old information or anecdotes from vets that are far enough out they have sent 4 kids to college.
 
dyachei said:
Making ends meet to me means paying all my bills and buying food. Without my spouses income, I'd be doing paye or ibr, not making a dent in my loans and having to deal with a lump sum payment in 25 years that I probably won't be able to make or going into credit card debt. I mean, I could live with my parents if I weren't married, but that gets old fast and it puts a burden on them. It literally means that if you got sick or hurt or your car broke down, you might not be able to buy groceries without further debt.

And you're wrong. People aren't more likely to take the survey if they are destitute. They are less likely because many feel ashamed of their situation.

If you're going to argue this at least do your own research instead of acting from old information or anecdotes from vets that are far enough out they have sent 4 kids to college.
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Lol ok, because the post that is being discussed basically claimed that nearly all veterinarians are "starving." When a statement that broad is made, bringing up examples of vets who aren't in line at a soup kitchen makes sense.

Edit: and like I said, this poster meant well. But again, to make a claim that veterinarians are starving as opposed to saying something like "struggling to pay bills" implies something entirely different than the latter phrasing.
 
pp9 said:
Lol ok, because the post that is being discussed basically claimed that nearly all veterinarians are "starving." When a statement that broad is made, bringing up examples of vets who aren't in line at a soup kitchen makes sense.

Edit: and like I said, this poster meant well. But again, to make a claim that veterinarians are starving as opposed to saying something like "struggling to pay bills" implies something entirely different than the latter phrasing.
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Actually do your research. Not being able to pay for food isn't starving so there might be some hyperbole but research instead of disregarding outright.

Eta this seems to be something you have issues with constantly. And the attitude here is pretty unprofessional
 
dyachei said:
Actually do your research. Not being able to pay for food isn't starving so there might be some hyperbole but research instead of disregarding outright
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Well, that's essentially my point. No one should have claimed that veterinarians as a whole are starving. I suppose the term could have just been used to emphasize her general point, but it was done very poorly. I'm not doubting the fact that veterinarians and students are struggling to make ends meet. You can't argue against that at all. I highly doubt the AVMA study will be titled "Veterinarians are starving."
 
pp9 said:
Well, that's essentially my point. No one should have claimed that veterinarians as a whole are starving. I suppose the term could have just been used to emphasize her general point, but it was done very poorly. I'm not doubting the fact that veterinarians and students are struggling to make ends meet. You can't argue against that at all. I highly doubt the AVMA study will be titled "Veterinarians are starving."
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I really hope you aren't this literal all the time.
 
So . . . speaking of student debt, I've been doing some soul-searching and number crunching this past four months or so, and I'm actually having serious doubts about attending next year, as sad as that sounds. . .

If I have a talk with my family about the debt to income ratio, job market, or other issues, what is a good way to introduce my concerns without it seeming like I'm trying to chicken out out of vet school, out of laziness/self-doubt? I've bringing it up once, but they just reassure me I'm going to be a rich doctor because "vets charge so much" and "people treat their animals like humans these days!"
 
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Innerspeaker said:
So . . . speaking of student debt, I've been doing some soul-searching and number crunching this past four months or so, and I'm actually having serious doubts about attending next year, as sad as that sounds. . .

If I have a talk with my family about the debt to income ratio, job market, or other issues, what is a good way to introduce my concerns without it seeming like I'm trying to chicken out out of vet school, out of laziness/self-doubt? I've bringing it up once, but they just reassure me I'm going to be a rich doctor because "vets charge so much" and "people treat their animals like humans these days!"
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I would have the facts on paper to present to them. Pull up the vin foundation loan repayment calculator (great eye opening resource). Show them the average starting salary of vets and then just be up front about your concerns. Tell them you are confident in your abilities to make it through but you are concerned about the future outlook of the profession. By showing them why you are concerned with the real numbers they might understand better and not shrug it off like they have in the past.
 
Innerspeaker said:
So . . . speaking of student debt, I've been doing some soul-searching and number crunching this past four months or so, and I'm actually having serious doubts about attending next year, as sad as that sounds. . .

If I have a talk with my family about the debt to income ratio, job market, or other issues, what is a good way to introduce my concerns without it seeming like I'm trying to chicken out out of vet school, out of laziness/self-doubt? I've bringing it up once, but they just reassure me I'm going to be a rich doctor because "vets charge so much" and "people treat their animals like humans these days!"
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People can be like that sometimes. All I can think of is bringing statistics about the median salary for vets and an outline of a budget for the schools that you wanted to attend to the table. Sometimes, it helps to see numbers. In the end, it's your choice. Tell them why you're backing out, and if you're honest and they still don't agree, they should at least accept and respect your concerns. If not... Well, the reasons you're actually considering against vet school are your own. You'll be the one who has to live with the financial implications, so don't feel as if they have to agree with you.
 
Thanks, everyone! I planned on definitely using that VIN calculator as well as discussing the issues with employment, etc. I also planned on directly showing them the math on paper and how that much debt might potentially interfere with some of my future life goals (owning a home, for example).

I think their main worry is that if I don't go to vet school, I won't have a back-up plan or any kind of solid direction in life. Fortunately, I am researching another career avenue that I'd be just as happy with and already am sketching out my "Plan B." Something I should have done three years ago, but better now than when there's a "no turning back" point.
 
Innerspeaker said:
Thanks, everyone! I planned on definitely using that VIN calculator as well as discussing the issues with employment, etc. I also planned on directly showing them the math on paper and how that much debt might potentially interfere with some of my future life goals (owning a home, for example).

I think their main worry is that if I don't go to vet school, I won't have a back-up plan or any kind of solid direction in life. Fortunately, I am researching another career avenue that I'd be just as happy with and already am sketching out my "Plan B." Something I should have done three years ago, but better now than when there's a "no turning back" point.
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Sounds like you have it under control! Best of luck!
 
I feel like a lot of pet stores are linked to shelters and rescues now. I think it is awesome that they are promoting shelter and shelter pets
 
My half bath is small, which is totally fine, but the mirror the owner/previous tenant/whoever put above the sink is also small and hung really high on the wall where it cuts me off awkwardly at the top of my shoulders. I was hoping to keep my hair stuff in that bathroom but I can't even see half my hair. It's a cheap mirror, so I might try to find a new one somewhere in the coming weeks. Also, my birthday is tomorrow and I'm going to eat my little Pepperidge Farm cake alone while watching horror movies all day because I'm anti-social and with my broken ankle I'm not allowed to drive anywhere yet. 🙁
 
Jess Monster said:
My half bath is small, which is totally fine, but the mirror the owner/previous tenant/whoever put above the sink is also small and hung really high on the wall where it cuts me off awkwardly at the top of my shoulders. I was hoping to keep my hair stuff in that bathroom but I can't even see half my hair. It's a cheap mirror, so I might try to find a new one somewhere in the coming weeks. Also, my birthday is tomorrow and I'm going to eat my little Pepperidge Farm cake alone while watching horror movies all day because I'm anti-social and with my broken ankle I'm not allowed to drive anywhere yet. 🙁
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If you want a list of good horror movies (available on Netflix) to watch I can make some suggestions.
 
Gwenevre said:
http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/ariz...s-sold-in-pet-stores-will-come-from-shelters/
Thoughts, comments?
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The first question that I have would be if they are going to sell the pets at significantly higher rates than the shelters would have or not. The local Petland had a few litters of kittens recently that were dropped off at the vet they contract with. They priced each kitten at $500, not including the spay/neuter. Had someone chosen to bring these kittens to a shelter instead of a clinic, they would go for $60 or so in my area, or less depending on how desperate the shelter is. The Petland employee told me they "need to recoup their costs" which I understand. Are they going to end up using the shelter's veterinary staff to care for the animals they have in the pet stores in order to be able to afford to keep their costs down? People don't volunteer at pet stores, but they do at shelters. Supplies aren't donated, money isn't donated, etc. I'm curious to see how it goes, especially since the policy makers recognized that the specific pet store in this article will be hit hard by this change.

I think it's a great idea, overall. No need to bring in more dogs when you already have 1000s. My only other comment is that if someone wants a 'purebred' dog or some fluffy yorkie doodlepoo, they're going to drive to get the dog they want if they can't get it in their city. If pet stores can't sell designer puppies and purebreds at the prices they do now, their businesses might be at stake, especially if they can't pass those prices onto shelter animals.
 
pp9 said:
If pet stores can't sell designer puppies and purebreds at the prices they do now, their businesses might be at stake, especially if they can't pass those prices onto shelter animals.
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Designer puppies shouldn't be sold for insanely high prices. There shouldn't be pet stores selling purebred puppies. If you want a purebred, go to the breeder, discuss with them. I don't feel any bit of sorrow for a pet store going out of business that sells "designer puppies" or purebreds that the breeder couldn't hold on to until they found a suitable home. Good breeders aren't selling their puppies to pet stores, they are holding on to their puppies until the appropriate home is found. And a good breeder is willing to take back that animal should anything go wrong and the "adopter" is unable to care for the puppy. So, yeah, I don't cry any tears for a pet store going under because they can no longer sell things we don't need.
 
DVMDream said:
Designer puppies shouldn't be sold for insanely high prices. There shouldn't be pet stores selling purebred puppies. If you want a purebred, go to the breeder, discuss with them. I don't feel any bit of sorrow for a pet store going out of business that sells "designer puppies" or purebreds that the breeder couldn't hold on to until they found a suitable home. Good breeders aren't selling their puppies to pet stores, they are holding on to their puppies until the appropriate home is found. And a good breeder is willing to take back that animal should anything go wrong and the "adopter" is unable to care for the puppy. So, yeah, I don't cry any tears for a pet store going under because they can no longer sell things we don't need.
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Not saying a yorkalabrapoodle should go for $1500, nor do I necessarily feel sorry for those who purchase from mills losing profit. If these businesses can't afford to drop down to the dirt cheap shelter prices and end up going under, then what's the point of forcing them to carry shelter animals? I wonder if they'd get a piece of the funding so they could afford to feed/care for a pet and still sell it for $60.

Edit: @batsenecal, thoughts? If this were required of your pet store, what do you think would happen?
 
pp9 said:
Not saying a yorkalabrapoodle should go for $1500, nor do I necessarily feel sorry for those who purchase from mills losing profit. If these businesses can't afford to drop down to the dirt cheap shelter prices and end up going under, then what's the point of forcing them to carry shelter animals? I wonder if they'd get a piece of the funding so they could afford to feed/care for a pet and still sell it for $60.

Edit: @batsenecal, thoughts? If this were required of your pet store, what do you think would happen?
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The point of forcing them to carry shelter animals is to dry up the market for dogs from puppy mills. It's to push people towards shelter dogs and dogs from responsible breeders. A side benefit is freeing up some space at the shelters but that would depend on how much space these pet stores have to begin with. The ones in my area only ever have a few dogs and cats at a time.

The way I've seen it work, the animals are already spayed/neutered and have their shots and everything before going to the pet store, so the shelter still covers those costs. Presumably the pet stores previously had to pay their suppliers some amount of money for the dogs, which would probably have been a lot higher than whatever they give the shelter for their dogs. So you'd have to keep that in mind too when considering how their profits would be affected.
 
pp9 said:
Not saying a yorkalabrapoodle should go for $1500, nor do I necessarily feel sorry for those who purchase from mills losing profit. If these businesses can't afford to drop down to the dirt cheap shelter prices and end up going under, then what's the point of forcing them to carry shelter animals? I wonder if they'd get a piece of the funding so they could afford to feed/care for a pet and still sell it for $60.

Edit: @batsenecal, thoughts? If this were required of your pet store, what do you think would happen?
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You didn't ask this. You stated that if they can't sell designer puppies and purebreds at the prices they do now then their businesses might be at stake. I responded with how I feel to that statement.
 
I really hope what is actually going to happen is requiring pet stores to have a satellite adoption center for local shelters in the store, like at Petsmarts. So that the animal is still being adopted from the shelter, and any potential adopters going through the shelters vetting process, rather than the pet store being able to sell the animals to who ever will payand profiting. I don't like the idea of pet stores selling shelter animals anymore than them selling mill or back yard breeder animals, aside from helping to reduce cruel breeding practices and over population.
 
WildZoo said:
The point of forcing them to carry shelter animals is to dry up the market for dogs from puppy mills. It's to push people towards shelter dogs and dogs from responsible breeders. A side benefit is freeing up some space at the shelters but that would depend on how much space these pet stores have to begin with. The ones in my area only ever have a few dogs and cats at a time.

The way I've seen it work, the animals are already spayed/neutered and have their shots and everything before going to the pet store, so the shelter still covers those costs. Presumably the pet stores previously had to pay their suppliers some amount of money for the dogs, which would probably have been a lot higher than whatever they give the shelter for their dogs. So you'd have to keep that in mind too when considering how their profits would be affected.
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True, the pets would technically be 'free' to the pet store. When you've seen it, how much do the pets sell for at the pet stores? If they're around $60-100 like they would be at the shelter, how have the businesses maintained themselves? If they tried to hike up prices to make profit/sustain the business, I don't see that working either. Would corporate pet stores even stick around? I doubt it.
 
pp9 said:
True, the pets would technically be 'free' to the pet store. When you've seen it, how much do the pets sell for at the pet stores? If they're around $60-100 like they would be at the shelter, how have the businesses maintained themselves? If they tried to hike up prices to make profit/sustain the business, I don't see that working either. Would corporate pet stores even stick around? I doubt it.
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I'm not sure, I haven't been in the market for a new cat or dog so I never looked at the prices. I actually knew about it from the shelter side, since I've volunteered at the one in my area a lot.
Corporate pet stores like Petsmart and Petco, you mean? Those are the only pet stores that exist in my area (not my whole city, just around where I live, there are other pet stores on the outskirts that, I just found out, do have designer puppies and such...big city so I had never seen them before). Both already exclusively do dog and cat adoptions with local shelters.
 
WildZoo said:
I'm not sure, I haven't been in the market for a new cat or dog so I never looked at the prices. I actually knew about it from the shelter side, since I've volunteered at the one in my area a lot.
Corporate pet stores like Petsmart and Petco, you mean? Those are the only pet stores that exist in my area (not my whole city, just around where I live, there are other pet stores on the outskirts that, I just found out, do have designer puppies and such...big city so I had never seen them before). Both already exclusively do dog and cat adoptions with local shelters.
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Petco has disappeared from my area...but it sounds like Petsmart is the same across the country when it comes to adoptions. Petsmart and Petco have a huge chunk of revenue coming from general pet supply sales, though. I have a Petland and a locally owned pet store, both of which sell purebreds and designer puppies, neither of which sell any supplies other than some toys, treats, and collars. I don't think Petland would stick around, but locally owned ones probably would have to since it's someone's only livelihood.

Now that we've brought up Petsmart though...I wish more people would have the same concern for the small animals/birds/reptiles the bigger pet stores sell. Those come from mills, too.
 
pp9 said:
Now that we've brought up Petsmart though...I wish more people would have the same concern for the small animals/birds/reptiles the bigger pet stores sell. Those come from mills, too.
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I don't think people think about it because it isn't as apparent. You don't see many of them in shelters (though one I worked at did have a rodent room...that was when I fell in love with ferrets 😍). You hear about puppy mills all the time but most people don't even know where the other animals are coming from. You don't see stray budgies flying around. Also...I mean, it's sad, but most people just care more about cats and dogs.
 
WildZoo said:
I don't think people think about it because it isn't as apparent. You don't see many of them in shelters (though one I worked at did have a rodent room...that was when I fell in love with ferrets 😍). You hear about puppy mills all the time but most people don't even know where the other animals are coming from. You don't see stray budgies flying around. Also...I mean, it's sad, but most people just care more about cats and dogs.
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Funny you say that...my area has had a crazy amount of lost birds lately....
 
pp9 said:
I wish I was seeing them 🙁 I follow several local lost pet FB pages and there's a few lost parakeets and an African grey missing. I get such a buzz off of finding lost pets and reuniting them with their owners haha
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Yeah I feel like lost birds would be particularly difficult to find...especially if their wings weren't clipped, which is probably how they got out and got lost in the first place.
 
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I've seen/caught a stray budgie and a stray cockateil. I've also heard of several stray iguanas in my area, though they get captured quickly due to our harsh winters. I also live near an area known for puppy mills and I don't think we have any pet stores that sell puppies anymore. People just go buy them directly from the mill, that does a great job of making themselves look legit/caring to most people.
 
Skimble said:
I've seen/caught a stray budgie and a stray cockateil. I've also heard of several stray iguanas in my area, though they get captured quickly due to our harsh winters. I also live near an area known for puppy mills and I don't think we have any pet stores that sell puppies anymore. People just go buy them directly from the mill, that does a great job of making themselves look legit/caring to most people.
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My former landlady bought her two huskies from someone who she thought was a good breeder, turns out the guy was basically running a mill. Apparently they're pretty common in PA. And oh the health problems that those two dogs have. Yet she still wouldn't get them spayed because she wanted to breed each of them at least once so she could keep a puppy from each litter :lame:
 
I did a new pet exam on a stray budgie a few weeks ago 😀

@WildZoo - we had a GSD puppy come in recently for hip dysplasia. "Were the parents' hips checked?" "Oh yeah, the dad was fair. The breeder said there wouldn't be any problems!" "Uhh okay, what about the mom?" "She wasn't checked." ::bang:
 
The first years started school on Monday... one of them apparently recognized me from my blog that I hadn't updated in about a year. That was kind of a strange moment.
 
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