rank list woes - placing less prestigious progs higher

[plasticbuddy]

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Hey Guys,
First I wanted to say thanks for being so supportive so far....

I am curious has anyone had huge problems with setting up their rank list?
I want to stay in Boston/NYC area b/c I am single and asian... but I feel like I am shooting myself in the foot by ranking programs that are top notch below mediocre programs that have great locations. I also just don't want to be at a malignant program either cuz it can destroy your social life.

ie: rank Duke below St. Vincents - Manhattan
(Duke is not exactly in the most diverse area)
ie: rank NYEEI below St. Lukes - Manhattan
(program is too malignant to have a semblance of a social life)

basically if I go to one of these programs (lukes/vincents) am I shooting myself in the foot to never be able to do retina or cornea at a good program? would I be able to get a decent job after residency?

what if I were to do research part time while in private practice right after residency? would that help me get a solid fellowship? I guess I just don't want to be single in the middle of nowhere but get great training..

The worst part of this is that my advisors keep ripping on some of these NYC programs; NYMC/Lukes/Vincents... it is making it hard for me to choose... anyone else in the same situation?

-pb

 

[xaelia]

I can't say I'm agonizing a whole lot over my rank list....mostly just a little uncertainty between putting UC Davis ahead of Iowa at #7. Man, I did love Iowa, but....oi....Iowa City. It would be easier to rank Iowa if I hadn't been stuck in the midwest for four years already....

 

[4424]

I can't say I'm agonizing a whole lot over my rank list....mostly just a little uncertainty between putting UC Davis ahead of Iowa at #7. Man, I did love Iowa, but....oi....Iowa City. It would be easier to rank Iowa if I hadn't been stuck in the midwest for four years already....

i'm pretty sure you didn't mean that how it sounded lol. i do think location matters to some extent though. it's easier if you're comparing good-great programs like uc davis to a great program like iowa but as in plastic buddy's case putting nyei under st luke's is a bit harder imo.

plasticbuddy- i would say try and rank within reason. nyei is still in the city and yea you probably won't get the social life that st luke's has but you also don't get anything near the training. plus you're still in the city! i too am having trouble with some part of my rank list but it has more to do with a husband having lots of opinions 🙂

 

[PDT4CNV]

Hey Guys,
First I wanted to say thanks for being so supportive so far....

I am curious has anyone had huge problems with setting up their rank list?
I want to stay in Boston/NYC area b/c I am single and asian... but I feel like I am shooting myself in the foot by ranking programs that are top notch below mediocre programs that have great locations. I also just don't want to be at a malignant program either cuz it can destroy your social life.

ie: rank Duke below St. Vincents - Manhattan
(Duke is not exactly in the most diverse area)
ie: rank NYEEI below St. Lukes - Manhattan
(program is too malignant to have a semblance of a social life)

basically if I go to one of these programs (lukes/vincents) am I shooting myself in the foot to never be able to do retina or cornea at a good program? would I be able to get a decent job after residency?


-pb

Location is important so that you are happy, but you also want to be at a respectable program and most importantly to get good training not to mention get the fellowship you want. If you rank St. Lukes and St. Vincents above Duke and NYEE, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Just so you know that. The Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area is not as homogenous as you might think. NYEE is a far superior program to St. Vincents or St. Lukes.

 

[Jokestr]

Plasticbuddy: What do you want in life?... To become a great ophthalmologist and help thousands of people to restore/correct/prevent deterioration in their eyes, or to become Harold and Kumar and go to White Castle every night with your friends when you are 35 years old? I think you need to re-evaluate your decisions and if "social life" and "location" is the most important thing for you, you may have been unwise to begin a career in medicine in the first place. I agree, location and social life are important, but if you are willing to rank "poor" programs ahead of "respected" programs, based solely because you want to have more "social life" and better be able to hang out with a "diverse" crowd, then you should have went into business...more time to worry about these things and far better money.

 

[xaelia]

Whoa, don't be so hard on the guy. Work/life balance is an important, if difficult to achieve, part of residency. Simply waking up and looking out the window in a location I dislike drains me of energy and motivation. It's three/four/six years of your life, which is an awfully long time to go without developing the ideal family or social support system.

Regarding the specific situation of plasticbuddy, I think Duke would be a surefire top-ranking program, and I wouldn't worry about not finding a diverse group of young persons associated with the medical campus and professional schools in Durham.

 

[plasticbuddy]

Plasticbuddy: What do you want in life?... To become a great ophthalmologist and help thousands of people to restore/correct/prevent deterioration in their eyes, or to become Harold and Kumar and go to White Castle every night with your friends when you are 35 years old? I think you need to re-evaluate your decisions and if "social life" and "location" is the most important thing for you, you may have been unwise to begin a career in medicine in the first place. I agree, location and social life are important, but if you are willing to rank "poor" programs ahead of "respected" programs, based solely because you want to have more "social life" and better be able to hang out with a "diverse" crowd, then you should have went into business...more time to worry about these things and far better money.

Where are you going to residency Jokestr?

 

[GuP]

Plasticbuddy: What do you want in life?... To become a great ophthalmologist and help thousands of people to restore/correct/prevent deterioration in their eyes, or to become Harold and Kumar and go to White Castle every night with your friends when you are 35 years old? I think you need to re-evaluate your decisions and if "social life" and "location" is the most important thing for you, you may have been unwise to begin a career in medicine in the first place. I agree, location and social life are important, but if you are willing to rank "poor" programs ahead of "respected" programs, based solely because you want to have more "social life" and better be able to hang out with a "diverse" crowd, then you should have went into business...more time to worry about these things and far better money.

Relax dude...

plasticbuddy - I think ultimately you have to make the decision b/c you will be living with it for 3-4 years. What may seem odd to us may make complete sense to you. I think you should listen to other's opinions but, in the end, do what you feel is best. I think location is very important - you can be at the greatest program but if you are alone and unhappy, it will be a very crappy experience and will most likely get in the way of your training. Go with your heart!

 

[Jokestr]

Ah good...
Glad I got to ruffle at least a few feathers...
First off, saying "Duke is not exactly in the most diverse area" is quite offensive. Maybe you should learn a lilttle more about an area before making a comment that sounds so ignorant. Obviously, it is not as diverse a place as New York City, but then again neither are too many other places on planet earth.
Second, your question came off sounding very lazy. Far too many residents and doctors are going into medicine for all of the wrong reasons, and then becoming poor clinicians because of it. I just hope my comments make someone out there think about it before they too fall down this ugly path. Maybe it is just the lack of sleep last night, but it really pisses me off when people forget the real reason to practice medicine...to help OTHER people. Good luck with your decision though, and no I don't have any affiliation with Duke or Raleigh/Durham.

 

[7ontheline]

I mostly agree with Jokstr. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but you definitely sound lazy and ignorant plasticbuddy. Work/life balance is important, but if you are so unwilling to break away from your very narrow comfort zone for an almost guaranteed better career (or at least one with more opportunity to be better) then why are you bothering with residency and medicine in the first place? There are easier ways to make a decent living. Your advisors are ripping on your preferred programs for a reason - almost everyone you meet in the future in the world of ophthalmology will agree with them and not look highly upon your choice of residency. (I mean no offense to anyone from these programs - I knew a guy from St. Vincent's. Nice guy, and not stupid by any means. However, he definitely suffered when it was time to find a fellowship and also when he was taking his boards because of the lack of didactics and academic focus.)

 

[Wolverine98]

The most important thing is to decide what is best for you. I don't think anyone here can answer that for you. There's really no right answer. You have to decide how much you're willing to sacrifice in the shortterm for your longterm goals (or vice versa).

The fact is, if you're worried about your social life during residency, you might be in for a REALLY rude awakening when it comes to a retina fellowship (and, arguably, even a retina lifestyle).

Dave

 

[plasticbuddy]

The most important thing is to decide what is best for you. I don't think anyone here can answer that for you. There's really no right answer. You have to decide how much you're willing to sacrifice in the shortterm for your longterm goals (or vice versa).

The fact is, if you're worried about your social life during residency, you might be in for a REALLY rude awakening when it comes to a retina fellowship (and, arguably, even a retina lifestyle).

Dave

GuP, Xaelia, 4424: thank you for listening and hearing me out... I really appreciate it! Xaelia, you're awesome man, I hope you get your first choice Did you go to WashU Med? My sister went there... great program. This whole process of applying can make you go nuts... I apologize if I came off whiney at first.
My rank list so far is 1. Columbia 2. Tufts 3. BU 4. NYEEI 5. cornell 6. St. Lukes 7. St. V's 8. Duke (hopefully after this it won't matter)

Wolverine98, PDT4CNV: thanks for your honest replies I appreciate the reality check. Residency definitely doesn't involve going out every night, but as a 3 & 4 you should have quite a few evenings & weekends off. My friends at top residencies say there is definitely room for socializing often.

I respectfully disagree with you about retina lifestyle... two family friends are private practice retina docs and have a great life/work balance

In addition to that something interesting I found was that a lot of people at 'bad programs' went on to strong fellowships. (I actually did the research).
St. V's graduate #1: Mass Eye & Ear - Retina
St. V's graduate #2: NYU/MEETH - Med Retina w/Yanuzzi
Nassau graduate #1: NY Eye & Ear - glaucoma w/Ritch
St. Lukes graduate #1: NY Eye & Ear - oculoplastics w/della rocca

After speaking with some of these grads they echoed my opinions about wanting to live in NYC/Boston/Philly/DC. The program director at my dept said you get out of residency what you put into it.... For me, I went to a top10 undergrad & medschool and would say the same... there are a lot of idiots that went to harvard and a lot of dropouts that are genius.

I spoke with more top notch new england ophthalmologists ... it seems that at the end of the day If you are not at a completely awful program a bright enthusiastic resident will stand out, make connections, do research, & go on to an excellent fellowship; my chairman also said this happens a lot especially when you live in Boston/NYC/Philly where you have TONS of exposure and opportunities to demonstrate excellence to world class physicians. ie: St. Lukes is a teaching hospital of Columbia... St. V's residents interact w/NYU-MEETH.

7ontheline & Jokestr,
Relax.... take a deep breath, its going to be OK! You don't even know me (maybe i'll be lucky and end up just as amazing as you guys someday!!) 😉 Good Luck with your work and life goals!

 

[to81]

To all of you who panned plasticsbuddy, remember one thing: in 4 years, he is still going to be a doctor, an ophthalmologist, no matter which program he attends. Who are you to call him lazy and essentially, a bad doctor, for wanting to have some semblance of a life during residency? To be able to empathize with people you must first be a person. If your patients trust you and like you, they are not going to care whether you have a diploma from Duke in your office.

 

[Wolverine98]

I respectfully disagree with you about retina lifestyle... two family friends are private practice retina docs and have a great life/work balance

Some do, but many are absurdly busy. And most don't get much balance during fellowship.

Dave

 

[indytx]

Some do, but many are absurdly busy. And most don't get much balance during fellowship.

Can you comment on work hours/salary for private practice vs. academic retina? I've looked at many sources and searched this forum thoroughly but generally there's no distinction between academics and private practice in this regard.

 

[indytx]

Sorry for the double post...computer issues. Is there a signifcant salary gap between academic retina and academic cornea/glaucoma?

 

[plasticbuddy]

Can you comment on work hours/salary for private practice vs. academic retina? I've looked at many sources and searched this forum thoroughly but generally there's no distinction between academics and private practice in this regard.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=67862&highlight=retina

I think thats where you want to be looking for private practice info... don't know about academics. g'luck.

 

[Wolverine98]

Can you comment on work hours/salary for private practice vs. academic retina? I've looked at many sources and searched this forum thoroughly but generally there's no distinction between academics and private practice in this regard.

I'm actually in a glaucoma fellowship, so I'm probably not the best person to comment on that. I know people on both sides who work extremely hard. In general (obviously with exceptions), pp retina will make more, as in most fields. How much of a difference it is I couldn't tell you. However, as in most things, there's a tradeoff.
In all likelihood, the differences also vary regionally, as most salaries do.

Dave

 

[KBerg21]

I have a similar dilemma as to ranking "less prestigious" programs ahead of "big names" - Cornell vs. SUNY-Downstate vs. UMDNJ.

Here's my pro/con list:
DOWNSTATE
Pros: Outstanding clinical volume, great fellowships, great research opportunities, well-respected alumni
Cons: Lack of adequate supervision at some sites, not well known outside of NYC-metro area, must cover 7 hospitals with in house call for some, dingy facilities at some sites

UMDNJ
Pros: Same as Downstate
Cons: Same as Downstate

CORNELL
Pros: Outstanding name, Outstanding fellowships, World-renowned faculty, beautiful facilities, incredible housing
Cons: Poor volume, lack of autonomy, program in flux with new PD and chair

Thoughts? Advice?

 

[4424]

i interviewed at all 3 kberg so i know how you feel. it's a personal call. i'm also struggling with where to put cornell. i think right now i have downstate>cornell>umdnj. i wasn't crazy about my umdnj experience. i felt they were busy but unhappy vs. downstate where they seemed happier despite how busy they were. cornell is really tough because of all the positives you stated but i just wasn't comfortable with their lack of autonomy and their #s. i dunno if i helped any though..

 

[Xibalba]

I'm having a similar issue on a portion of my rank list. I'm single, from a coast, and would like to remain on either one. However, I do have interest in an academic career. So I'm curious your thoughts on how much it would hurt, in getting a good fellowship/academic position if I do rank like this...

n) cornell
n+1) cpmc
n+2) yale
n+3) iowa
n+4) cole

cornell residents seem to match well as fellows, so do cpmc ones; did not see the list from iowa or cole. yale not as great, but close to nyc, new chairman who seems enthusiastic to make the dept better.

 

[Eyesore]

I'm having a similar issue on a portion of my rank list. I'm single, from a coast, and would like to remain on either one. However, I do have interest in an academic career. So I'm curious your thoughts on how much it would hurt, in getting a good fellowship/academic position if I do rank like this...

n) cornell
n+1) cpmc
n+2) yale
n+3) iowa
n+4) cole

cornell residents seem to match well as fellows, so do cpmc ones; did not see the list from iowa or cole. yale not as great, but close to nyc, new chairman who seems enthusiastic to make the dept better.

As was posted in the program compendium thread, this is the link to the recent matches from Cole Eye. I'd say those matches look pretty good!

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/eye/physician_info/alumni.asp

 

[indytx]

Does anyone know how Casey residents did this year in the fellowship match? Also anyone know where Duke residents go for fellowship?

 

[LBJ]

Do folks think that it really matters where you do residency in terms of fellowship opportunities? I think that in general, for good programs, it doesn't. If you're a good resident, and show interest (ie - research) you'll get a good fellowship whether it's Cole, Iowa, Duke, Casey, Oklahoma or whereever. This probably holds true even for less well-regarded programs. Rank 'em how you like 'em. The fellowship stuff will work itself out.

 

[kulkarka]

I'm having a similar issue on a portion of my rank list. I'm single, from a coast, and would like to remain on either one. However, I do have interest in an academic career. So I'm curious your thoughts on how much it would hurt, in getting a good fellowship/academic position if I do rank like this...

n) cornell
n+1) cpmc
n+2) yale
n+3) iowa
n+4) cole

cornell residents seem to match well as fellows, so do cpmc ones; did not see the list from iowa or cole. yale not as great, but close to nyc, new chairman who seems enthusiastic to make the dept better.

Xibalba--cornell residents do well for fellowships, and occasionally someone gets a great fellowship, but there's no doubt that iowa and cole consistently do better than any of those other programs. also, it depends what you're interested in. yale has some of the biggest names in glaucoma, while cole has some big names in retina. iowa is just a great all-around program and you can probably get any fellowship you want. i don't know anything about CPMC. i think it just depends on what you're priorities are. i loved cornell also, but if you want to be on a coast, then you may need to sacrifice a little bit...

 

[azzarah]

Do what your heart says....only you know what will make you happy.
I'm ranking several highly ranked programs below Colorado.

 

[Photon Catchers]

Does anyone know how Casey residents did this year in the fellowship match? Also anyone know where Duke residents go for fellowship?

Late response, I know, but if you are still curious:

Two Casey 3rd year residents applied for cornea and both landed their top choices: one at Casey and one at UC Irvine. The other 2 seniors are going into comprehensive ophtho....