Rank these residency programs

[DPMer]

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How would you rank these programs from best (#1) to least best (#10)? I am thinking of these programs for CASPR/CRIP.

-Aria Health
-Temple University Hospital
-Penn Presbyterian Medical Center
-Western Pennsylvania Hospital
-Dekalb Medical Center
-Crozer Chester Medical Center
-University of Texas Health Science Center in San Antonio
-Yale New Haven
-Inova Fairfax Hospital
-Scripps Mercy Kaiser

 

[PADPM]

How would you rank these programs from best (#1) to least best (#10)? I am thinking of these programs for CASPR/CRIP.

-Aria Health
-Temple University Hospital
-Penn Presbyterian Medical Center
-Western Pennsylvania Hospital
-Dekalb Medical Center
-Crozer Chester Medical Center
-University of Texas Health Science Center in San Antonio
-Yale New Haven
-Inova Fairfax Hospital
-Scripps Mercy Kaiser

You've listed many programs that differ dramatically from one another and in my opinion can not really be compared. It really depends on what you want from your residency and how you'd like to practice in the future.

Regardless how anyone ranks these programs, they have to be a good fit for you. You have to visit these programs and/or speak with current or former residents to see what the program is really all about to see if the program interests you, despite anyone's "rankings".

For example, in my opinion, Crozer Chester isn't going to match the academics or diversity of a Western Pennsylvania, Penn Presby, Innova, Dekalb, Temple, etc., but may be a perfect fit for you.

 

[Feli]

Limit of one new thread per week per account. Please and thank you.

Dekalb / West Penn / Inova
>
Presby / Scripps / Yale
>
the rest

...residency is an individual fit. Try to visit as many as you can, work your tail off, and learn from every clerkship. I clerked at 3 of the ones you ask about:

West Penn's numbers were not too grand when I was there, but I think they realized that and now take fewer residents/yr. The 3 main attendings there are solid gold and as well read and good at surgery + teaching as you will find anywhere.

DeKalb is pretty much top notch from any angle: cadaver lab, academics, surg volume, attending teaching, etc. Like West Penn, it is a killer on the sleep, spouse, sanity, tho... do your homework and figure out if it's really for you.

Presby is 4yr and way overkill on the medicine IMO. You won't get any more surg there than most good 3yr programs (and you'll prob get less trauma F&A surg), you'll just get more medicine and non-pod surgery. It's sure not for everyone (incl me), but take a look if you want. You would do a lot worse.

 

[misskittyPA]

Does anyone know anything about the West Houston/Kingwood programs in Texas? It seems like they have excellent surgical volume and also great cadaver labs, academics etc. Seems to be more a of a sleeper since they don't take externs.

Dekalb scrambled 4 of their 5 spots this cycle. Gossip seems to point to the fact that Presby, Temple and Dekalb were competing for the same students and Presby and Temple won. Take it for what is worth.

UPMC is in the process of buying West Penn so it will be interesting to see if those 2 programs end up merging.

 

[Feli]

Does anyone know anything about the West Houston/Kingwood programs in Texas? It seems like they have excellent surgical volume and also great cadaver labs, academics etc. Seems to be more a of a sleeper since they don't take externs.

Dekalb scrambled 4 of their 5 spots this cycle. Gossip seems to point to the fact that Presby, Temple and Dekalb were competing for the same students and Presby and Temple won. Take it for what is worth.

UPMC is in the process of buying West Penn so it will be interesting to see if those 2 programs end up merging.

Is it tough powering the rumor mill all by yourself? lol

West Houston is far from a "sleeper." You will have a very hard time getting the program. It's a good program with high volume. They get tons of apps based on location, though... probably twice what my similar quality/volume program gets (and we have a clerkship).

This is not directed at you, but students in general should be VERY VERY careful about listening to other students regarding program quality, changes, rumors, etc. The best way to learn is just to take resident/attending opinions of programs with a grain of salt... and ultimately go clerk and make up your own mind about the training. Residency choice is not one-size-fits all. It's a personal choice - for both sides.

 

[misskittyPA]

Is it tough powering the rumor mill all by yourself? lol

No rumor mill to power. It is a fact that Dekalb scrambled 4 of their 5 spots this year.

Which program in Texas does Mendicino work most with, West Houston or Kingwood?

 

[Feli]

...Which program in Texas does Mendicino work most with, West Houston or Kingwood?

He was the director of both; office at West Houston Hospital. They're both under the auspices if Greater Tex Ed Foundation.

West Houston is an elite program IMO... Kingwood is not on the same level, but still better than most.

 

[oncogene]

edit

 

[Todd48]

I rarely read this website and definitely am not a regular with leaving comments but here is what I think. You’re looking for someone to make this an easier decision in your mind as far as which program to like more but like everyone else said you need to experience it for yourself because they all have different strong points and weaknesses. I’d like to point out some weaknesses and leave some comments for you but first I would like to update something that was said above.
Mendicino is no longer the director of both and hasn’t been for a while. He stepped in and saved the kingwood program when it was in danger of shutting down. He has since handed over his position as director of that program. Those programs do maintain a relationship with each other but have different directors, are not the same program and have separate interviews. Look at the link below if you don’t believe me.
http://www.casprcrip.org/html/casprcrip/pdf/Dir_Pgs/0319.pdf
You asked for number rankings and for me it would be
1.Inova 2.Dekalb 3.West Penn 4.Presby 5.Scripps 6. Temple 7.UTSA 8.Crozer 9.Aria 10.yale
I can’t tell you what order is the best for you but I can tell you some of those programs you have listed are just not what they used to be. I spent time at Yale as a student. It was downright disappointing. I had high expectations for it and was offered the program. If you extern there, you will find out what I mean when I say it let me down. Look at their third year residents and compare them to what you see at other programs and you will understand. Probably one of the weaker overall programs on your list in my opinion but hey it’s yale and people know the name but they don’t know you will have spent ~75% of your time as a resident at the other hospitals and the new haven VA. Dekalb very well known but only for people who can deal with the way the program runs. This next comment is only “hear say” because I had no experience with this program but the Inova program got a big lift from the doing rotations at Georgetown. I’ve heard that your participation in them is minimal though. Inova and other programs that are today’s big name programs have good teaching or associations get a big name but you don’t always get to see/do that big surgery they taught you all about. I would agree with what was said about Penn Presby. Lot’s of medicine but pod surg nothing you won’t get from another solid 3 year program. Temple not as much surgery as you would think but you do get the numbers. West penn I agree with what has been said. Most of those residents for whatever reason end up doing fellowships (maybe because they only meet the minimums and feel they need more hands on training, I’m not sure why).Scripps big name on the west coast but less than amazing for me, sorry to those I just offended. Aria from what I saw as a student there a couple years ago there is one attending who brings in a lot of surgeries but doesn’t really pass the blade to residents. Crozer and UTSA I haven’t experienced or heard anything about but texas programs overall are solid I think.
In my opinion there are better programs in the country today than what you have listed. If there was a top 5 list of programs, Inova would be the only one from your list that would make the top 5.

 

[347932]

Residency training is such an intensely personal journey that the only way to answer that question is for YOU to decide what YOU want.

My residency was a very small program, but the hours were brutal. My attendings were high maintenance surgeons, but man could they cut. And man could they teach. Some residents who were selected to the program actually left after a few weeks. They felt it was a little too intense for them. The hours were rough, but the training I received was supreme imho. I loved it, and the teaching style the surgeons had and the WAY I was taught, was right up my alley. It really helped me to excel and they encouraged me to learn my own style of how to be a physician and surgeon.

The program doesn't exist anymore. Does that mean it was a lousy program? The residents that left would probably tell you that yes, it was. My take on it was that it was really the right program for ME. And that's what YOU need. The right program for YOU.

 

[347932]

He was the director of both; office at West Houston Hospital. They're both under the auspices if Greater Tex Ed Foundation.

West Houston is an elite program IMO... Kingwood is not on the same level, but still better than most.

Sam is an elite guy. He is one of the best of the best and his program reflects that. GTEF is an amazing foundation generated to TEACH. Nothing more, nothing less. Generally the egos are left at the door and the decisions that are made are in the best interest of the residents and the program. It's rare to find that kind of dedication to the profession.

I've known Sam for a long time and he never ceases to amaze me in how he views and adds to our profession. Anyone would be lucky to train with him and his group.

 

[DrMushroomFoot]

In my opinion there are better programs in the country today than what you have listed. If there was a top 5 list of programs, Inova would be the only one from your list that would make the top 5.

Just out of curiosity, which programs would be your top 5?

 

[Todd48]

Just out of curiosity, which programs would be your top 5?

My top 5-Inova, Swedish, Kaiser San Francisco, Grant, UPMC

I’m sure there are many other programs that would also leave you in a great position upon completing residency. Some of those in my opinion would be-West Houston, Orlando, Cambridge, Penn, Dekalb, NY Methodist, Memorial in RI. I'm sure there are many more solid programs out there.

 

[NebraskaFoot]

Does anyone know anything about the West Houston/Kingwood programs in Texas? It seems like they have excellent surgical volume and also great cadaver labs, academics etc. Seems to be more a of a sleeper since they don't take externs.

Dekalb scrambled 4 of their 5 spots this cycle. Gossip seems to point to the fact that Presby, Temple and Dekalb were competing for the same students and Presby and Temple won. Take it for what is worth.

UPMC is in the process of buying West Penn so it will be interesting to see if those 2 programs end up merging.

UPMC is not buying West Penn. The in-patient services at West Penn closed at the beginning of this year. West Penn merged with Allegheny General Hospital in 2003. They have been trying to deal with the debt load and closed the hospital as part of their debt plan. The Podiatry office is still open at West Penn. Currently, Highmark insurance is considering purchasing West Penn/AGH system to compete with UPMC which is the second largest insurance company in West PA, Eastern OH, and NW West Virgina.

West Penn residency has looked at various possiblities such as moving to a UPMC facility, but this most likely will never happen. The merger would have to be on UPMC's terms which the big attendings at West Penn would not like.

 

[Feli]

My top 5-Inova, Swedish, Kaiser San Francisco, Grant, UPMC...

Interesting... I'd probably go with DeKalb, Kaiser-SF Bay, Presby-StLukes, Inova, and DMC.

In the end, it depends on what the student wants, though (this assumes they're an elite student and end up with basically their choice of programs):
-Do you want to be trained largely by DPMs or by more by orthos/MDs (esp for RRA/trauma cases)?
-What region of the country would you want to train in?
-What type of cases interest you the most (elective recon, diabetic, trauma, etc?)?
-If you have a spouse/kids/hobbies/etc, how much are you willing to sacrafice for the sake of training?
-Do you place more emphasis on reading/research or do you want extremely high clinical patient/surgery volume? (only so many hrs in a day... you can't really have your cake and eat it too)
-Do you learn better being pushed to the limit, or will you read and prep on your own?
-Do you want a few attendings who are solid gold, or do you want many, many attendings, incl some of marginal teaching quality?
-Are you willing to train in a P.O.S. inner city hospital to get good cases, or do you tend to value nicer hospital and suburb living?
-Are you willing to put in the hours you see the residents doing during your clerkship - plus addt'l ~20% unseen time (for paperwork/logging/etc)?

...Those are just some of the questions you need to ask yourself and think about. Good students will always have many good options, but it's an individual fit in terms of residency choice.

 

[NebraskaFoot]

Interesting... I'd probably go with DeKalb, Kaiser-SF Bay, Presby-StLukes, Inova, and DMC.

In the end, it depends on what the student wants, though (this assumes they're an elite student and end up with basically their choice of programs):
-Do you want to be trained largely by DPMs or by more by orthos/MDs (esp for RRA/trauma cases)?
-What region of the country would you want to train in?
-What type of cases interest you the most (elective recon, diabetic, trauma, etc?)?
-If you have a spouse/kids/hobbies/etc, how much are you willing to sacrafice for the sake of training?
-Do you place more emphasis on reading/research or do you want extremely high clinical patient/surgery volume? (only so many hrs in a day... you can't really have your cake and eat it too)
-Do you learn better being pushed to the limit, or will you read and prep on your own?
-Do you want a few attendings who are solid gold, or do you want many, many attendings, incl some of marginal teaching quality?
-Are you willing to train in a P.O.S. inner city hospital to get good cases, or do you tend to value nicer hospital and suburb living?
-Are you willing to put in the hours you see the residents doing during your clerkship - plus addt'l ~20% unseen time (for paperwork/logging/etc)?

...Those are just some of the questions you need to ask yourself and think about. Good students will always have many good options, but it's an individual fit in terms of residency choice.

It is interesting how this topic dies and like a bad zombie flick comes back. Feli makes good points that you need to know what you want.

Just a side comment on your list, three of your five programs have rarely publish in the last five years. I completely disagree that you cannot have high numbers, education, and research. But that maybe on the basis of what is your definition of high numbers. Also what are those cases? Logging 2000 toes is impressive but doesn't mean you have the best program in the country.

 

[jonwill]

Logging 2000 toes is impressive but doesn't mean you have the best program in the country.

But it probably does mean that you are really good at doing toes.

 

[Feli]

... Logging 2000 toes is impressive but doesn't mean you have the best program in the country.

Au contraire...

It's definitely not all toes, but I do have the best program in the country... for me. That is the bottom line. I love the cases. I enjoy the diversity of attendings. I have fun with the co-residents... great time at my intern's bday party last night. I have fun in a big teaching hospital with many other specialist attendings and residents... surgery team won the StJohn annual Med vs Surg soccer game last night... whoop whoop 😎

I hope everyone finds the kind of success I have. It was my top choice residency, and I'm blessed. In about a year, I will probably head to my top choice employer. There are many other posters here on SDN, classmates of mine, and residents/attendings I know nationwide who feel the same way. If you put in hard work, you get "lucky" quite a bit 😉