Ranking and match question!

[Braingames]

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Ok well I am a bit in the dark of how the whole match works-but I have a question I am hoping you can help me with-so here is the scenario-

So my top choice is program A and my second choice is program B-however I know program B will rank me higher and I have a almost sure bet as to getting into program B-or atleast a much better chance. However Program A is my top choice and although I have a lesser chance since it is a more competitive program I really want to go there-So I rank it number 1. and Rank program B number 2. Now assuming I do not get into my first choice of program 1. Now Because I did not rank program 2 first-does this diminish my chance of matching there.

Basically what I am trying to say-does it hurt me to gamble and rank another program number 1 if I know some program is going to rank me number 1-Ok I think I am being confusing so maybe I am a dubmass but here is another way of looking at it

I rank program A first and program B second.

Program A does not rank me ande Program B ranks me first

Now, because I did not rank program B first, does that mean I will not get the slot at program B or will I still match at program B?

Hope this makes sense-thanks guys!

 

[Pox in a box]

Ok well I am a bit in the dark of how the whole match works-but I have a question I am hoping you can help me with-so here is the scenario-

So my top choice is program A and my second choice is program B-however I know program B will rank me higher and I have a almost sure bet as to getting into program B-or atleast a much better chance. However Program A is my top choice and although I have a lesser chance since it is a more competitive program I really want to go there-So I rank it number 1. and Rank program B number 2. Now assuming I do not get into my first choice of program 1. Now Because I did not rank program 2 first-does this diminish my chance of matching there.

Basically what I am trying to say-does it hurt me to gamble and rank another program number 1 if I know some program is going to rank me number 1-Ok I think I am being confusing so maybe I am a dubmass but here is another way of looking at it

I rank program A first and program B second.

Program A does not rank me ande Program B ranks me first

Now, because I did not rank program B first, does that mean I will not get the slot at program B or will I still match at program B?

Hope this makes sense-thanks guys!

Rank all the programs where YOU WOULD WANT to go. The match works in your favor.

 

[orientedtoself]

nrmp algorithm

assuming you were ranked high enough to match at b, then you would match at b. how you rank them doesn't change how they rank you.

 

[OB/Gyn Kenobi]

You will match at the place you ranked the highest that ranked you high enough to match there. Technically, your chances of matching at Program B were diminished by the chances you'll match at Program A. If you think about the algorithm, if anyone tells you that you should rank programs any way other than the order you really want to go to the programs, they are full of it.

 

[dynx]

I swear to god Im surounded by idiots.

 

[Braingames]

Ahh that was a helpful link-I guess nobody thoroughly explained the match to us at our school which is too bad. I was under the misconcpetion that if you did not rank a program high, even if you knew you were a shoe in there but did not want to go there-that another person less sought after than you could take the slot just because you did not rank them. But now I understand that for example if I am a programs top choice, than It does not matter if I rank them last-Match tries to put me into every program before it-and if it does not than since that program ranked me first-I will get that slot if I dont get any others above itand it will boot out whoever was tentatively matched-I love that!

 

[ekydrd]

Ahh that was a helpful link-I guess nobody thoroughly explained the match to us at our school which is too bad. I was under the misconcpetion that if you did not rank a program high, even if you knew you were a shoe in there but did not want to go there-that another person less sought after than you could take the slot just because you did not rank them. But now I understand that for example if I am a programs top choice, than It does not matter if I rank them last-Match tries to put me into every program before it-and if it does not than since that program ranked me first-I will get that slot if I dont get any others above itand it will boot out whoever was tentatively matched-I love that!

By George I think he's got it!!!

 

[Ramoray]

Well maybe I am dumb but none of my classmates really understood this either so maybe its my school and my own fault for not looking into it-in defense that is why I started looking into it now-or I may have ranked for the wrong reasons!

Hey but question then-I hear a lot of people saying that programs are more likely to rank applicants that they think will attend compared to more desirable applicants that probably will not attend. Now does not match work the same for them-is it not in their best interest to rank the candidates that are most valuable first and foremost?

 

[fantasty]

Well maybe I am dumb but none of my classmates really understood this either so maybe its my school and my own fault for not looking into it-in defense that is why I started looking into it now-or I may have ranked for the wrong reasons!

Hey but question then-I hear a lot of people saying that programs are more likely to rank applicants that they think will attend compared to more desirable applicants that probably will not attend. Now does not match work the same for them-is it not in their best interest to rank the candidates that are most valuable first and foremost?

Yep. That's the website says. Some programs like to brag about not going far down on their list. But, they should also rank based on who they want to fill their program with, not based on where they expect to land on people's list. In the example, the one program doesn't fill because they ranked too few people. Another program ranked as you suggested, and they missed someone that they would have prefered (over the applicant they got).

 

[colbgw02]

Hey but question then-I hear a lot of people saying that programs are more likely to rank applicants that they think will attend compared to more desirable applicants that probably will not attend. Now does not match work the same for them-is it not in their best interest to rank the candidates that are most valuable first and foremost?

this is true. to what extent i can't really say, but i know in the relavitely small world of the neurosurgery match slots get decided upon well before their match day.

it's unfortunate because the match is designed to make this a non-issue, but not even the NRMP can factor in PDs who have to answer to their department chairs, hospital chief-of-staff, etc...

 

[Faebinder]

RANK IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE... sheesh what a hard concept... repeat after me... RANK IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE....


Go ahead and thank Orient for the link.

 

[deleted109597]

RANK IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE... sheesh what a hard concept... repeat after me... RANK IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE....


Go ahead and thank Orient for the link.

Like that person said.

 

[Entei]

Whoa.
Did the OP actually get banned for being a n00b?

Rank in order of preference, etc.

 

[Bertelman]

Whoa.
Did the OP actually get banned for being a n00b?

No, but that would be pretty cool.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=4381234#post4381234

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=4380426#post4380426

 

[Ultra7]

I do not think it is as straightforward as it seems at first.
If one were to go completely on the NRMP algorithm, then ranking programs in your order of preference makes sense. It is simple stable marriage problem.
However, the algorithm is thrown off by the reality that applicants and program directors can voluntarily reveal their hand ahead of time, and some programs expect this and may not rank you as highly if you have not shown your hand (i.e. called and told the PD you plan to rank them number one). As you can ethically only tell one program they are your number one, perhaps in some cases you are better off telling program B (your second choice, which you are more confident likes you) then risking the same scenario with program A (who might not rank you near the top even if you do tell them they are number one).
I think this little dance applies more to some specialties and programs than others, so I would not be surprised if the match for some is relatively straightforward. But it isn't always!

 

[Faebinder]

I do not think it is as straightforward as it seems at first.
If one were to go completely on the NRMP algorithm, then ranking programs in your order of preference makes sense. It is simple stable marriage problem.
However, the algorithm is thrown off by the reality that applicants and program directors can voluntarily reveal their hand ahead of time, and some programs expect this and may not rank you as highly if you have not shown your hand (i.e. called and told the PD you plan to rank them number one). As you can ethically only tell one program they are your number one, perhaps in some cases you are better off telling program B (your second choice, which you are more confident likes you) then risking the same scenario with program A (who might not rank you near the top even if you do tell them they are number one).
I think this little dance applies more to some specialties and programs than others, so I would not be surprised if the match for some is relatively straightforward. But it isn't always!

TELL NO ONE THAT YOU ARE MAKING THEM NUMBER ONE.... It's to your disadvantage. PDs are not stupid... they will rank the ones they want first...
If your ass looks good on paper but the other applicant looks AWESOME then they will probably rank the other applicant above you and since it's unethical for them to ask you about their program's ranking on your list then volunteering it might put you at a disadvantage by allowing them a chance to go after a better applicant knowing that they got you covered... therefore don't volunteer it...

Just don't do it...

(Telling them you rank them high might not be that bad... but telling them they are #1 or #2 is a BIG MISTAKE.)

I would love to hear a PD's opinion on this....

 

[Bertelman]

I do not think it is as straightforward as it seems at first.
If one were to go completely on the NRMP algorithm, then ranking programs in your order of preference makes sense. It is simple stable marriage problem.
However, the algorithm is thrown off by the reality that applicants and program directors can voluntarily reveal their hand ahead of time, and some programs expect this and may not rank you as highly if you have not shown your hand (i.e. called and told the PD you plan to rank them number one). As you can ethically only tell one program they are your number one, perhaps in some cases you are better off telling program B (your second choice, which you are more confident likes you) then risking the same scenario with program A (who might not rank you near the top even if you do tell them they are number one).
I think this little dance applies more to some specialties and programs than others, so I would not be surprised if the match for some is relatively straightforward. But it isn't always!

How can we possibly make this more clear...

Rank in order of YOUR PREFERENCE. PERIOD. Think of the countless worthless topics posted on these message boards. Think of the tens of thousands of med students before you that have participated in the match. Time and time again, they all say the same thing. Rank in the order of YOUR PREFERENCE!!! You would think that if there were actually a conspiracy or "trick" to the system, it would be widely publicized here, of all places.

Even if the situation you are posing has some glimmer of merit, think about how you would respond. How could you respond. What could you possibly do to prevent your proposed situation from occurring. You would drive yourself mad wondering how the programs are ranking you. You have NO WAY of determining, truthfully, how these programs are ranking you. So, even if you rank your #2 above your previous #1, you might not match at either, because maybe it was really your #1 that wanted you, and has now filled its slots, while #2 thought you were a bag of dirt. Throw a bagel in a hosptal and you will find a resident who didn't match at their #1, who was "confident" their #1 though highly of them.

Please, don't let me go on with more ridiculous, uncontrollable scenarios. Just take the overwhelming advice of this thread, every previous thread before it, and every thread to come. RANK IN THE ORDER OF YOUR PREFERENCE. Then you can sleep at night.

 

[Entei]

TELL NO ONE THAT YOU ARE MAKING THEM NUMBER ONE.... It's to your disadvantage. PDs are not stupid... they will rank the ones they want first...
If your ass looks good on paper but the other applicant looks AWESOME then they will probably rank the other applicant above you and since it's unethical for them to ask you about their program's ranking on your list then volunteering it might put you at a disadvantage by allowing them a chance to go after a better applicant knowing that they got you covered... therefore don't volunteer it...

Just don't do it...

(Telling them you rank them high might not be that bad... but telling them they are #1 or #2 is a BIG MISTAKE.)

I would love to hear a PD's opinion on this....

Really? What about for those programs that "like" (whatever that means) when applicants show interest in the program? I can see where it might not be the smartest move to tell a program, "well, you're only my #2 choice," but is it really shooting yourself in the foot to say to a program "you are my top choice?" Maybe it's different for different specialties/programs. I would also appreciate a PD's anonymous opinion on this. Activate the BKN signal!

Otherwise, agreed. Rank in order of preference. No question.

 

[deleted109597]

I would also appreciate a PD's anonymous opinion on this. Activate the BKN signal!

 

[Saabdriver]

Note: I completely agree with the above posters saying rank in order of preference.

I just wanted to bring up that two issues are relevant to this subject. First, more importantly than how the program ranks applicants is how other applicants are ranking the program. Obviously this will vary from year to year but you may be able to get a sense from talking to current residents where they ranked the school. I am not advocating straight out asking this question, but in my experience (N=1) residents have volunteered where they ranked the program, and frankly knowing that residents have matched with a ranking of 3-5 at a good program is heartening. Second, but related, I have no doubt that there are several programs in every specialty field that only match those applicants that rank them first. This is where it may be helpful to hear from an advisor how highly the program may regard you. If it's a long shot it may be worth a chance at matching by ranking the program first, however, it doing so may also relatively decrease your chances at matching further down your list. Just throwing that careful analysis out there, I'm sure that plenty of folks will chime in on this.

 

[Faebinder]

Really? What about for those programs that "like" (whatever that means) when applicants show interest in the program? I can see where it might not be the smartest move to tell a program, "well, you're only my #2 choice," but is it really shooting yourself in the foot to say to a program "you are my top choice?" Maybe it's different for different specialties/programs. I would also appreciate a PD's anonymous opinion on this. Activate the BKN signal!

Otherwise, agreed. Rank in order of preference. No question.

Oh God, the ER docs can be such nerds. Lets see if the signal actually works. heh.

Why would you not tell a program that they are your number 1? Because then they would be like... "Well, we like him, he certainly likes us... we can easily get him.. lets go after someone else that might be harder and put him as our number 8... Since those other 8 for the 8 positions are not garaunteed." Not telling them they are #1 blocks those evil thoughts. Just remember there is always someone they want more than you and you don't want it to be easy for them to pick that person over you knowing that they got you as a backup.

Telling them you are interested and ranking them high I think is safe.

 

[dynx]

If it's a long shot it may be worth a chance at matching by ranking the program first, however, it doing so may also relatively decrease your chances at matching further down your list.

How the hell would it decrease your chances at matching further down your list? Because you might get your number one choice? OH NO!

 

[Saabdriver]

Sorry to clarify I meant that if you did not rank said program you would have ranked your #2 program first, #3 second, #4 third etc thus increasing the chances at matching at those programs. Just making the point that if the program only matches applicants who rank the program #1 and you are down the list (not that you could ever know this 100%) you WILL NOT match there and theoretically would be advantaged not even ranking said program.

 

[Entei]

Sorry to clarify I meant that if you did not rank said program you would have ranked your #2 program first, #3 second, #4 third etc thus increasing the chances at matching at those programs. Just making the point that if the program only matches applicants who rank the program #1 and you are down the list (not that you could ever know this 100%) you WILL NOT match there and theoretically would be advantaged not even ranking said program.

That was clarifying?

IbnSina wins the internet.

As for telling a program they're your #1, I think it can sometimes help. All else being equal between two candidates, the one that expressed more interest in the program is getting ranked higher. If the candidates are not equal, well, the stronger candidate is getting ranked higher anyway, regardless of how many love letters/phone calls/thank you notes/fruit baskets the weaker one sends in.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Since someone asked for a PD opinion, I'll add mine.

I cannot tell you how many times someone who told me that I was their #1 choice ended up matching at another program, obviously because I was not their #1 choice. So, although I may be somewhat cynical, I don't put much stock in these statements anymore.

From a PD's perspective, there is no harm in ranking candidates that are unlikely to come to my program highly, just like there is no harm to applicants ranking programs to which they feel they have little chance of matching highly. Therefore, I don't adjust the rank list at all based on applicants stating that I am their #1. I guess if there was an absolute tie onn my ROL between a few people, it might make a difference about how I ranked them, but the chances of changing your match based on movement up the ROL by a few slots is unlikely.

 

[Astrocyte]

Since someone asked for a PD opinion, I'll add mine.

I cannot tell you how many times someone who told me that I was their #1 choice ended up matching at another program, obviously because I was not their #1 choice. So, although I may be somewhat cynical, I don't put much stock in these statements anymore.

From a PD's perspective, there is no harm in ranking candidates that are unlikely to come to my program highly, just like there is no harm to applicants ranking programs to which they feel they have little chance of matching highly. Therefore, I don't adjust the rank list at all based on applicants stating that I am their #1. I guess if there was an absolute tie onn my ROL between a few people, it might make a difference about how I ranked them, but the chances of changing your match based on movement up the ROL by a few slots is unlikely.

Since it's a symmetrical algorithm, there is really no 'advantage to the applicant', as there is no advantage to the program.

Now let's end this thread.

 

[deleted113029]

No. 😛

 

[orientedtoself]

Since it's a symmetrical algorithm, there is really no 'advantage to the applicant', as there is no advantage to the program.

Now let's end this thread.

there is an advantage to the applicant because the algorithm runs the applicant's preferences first, rather than the program's.

 

[jjwiiwi]

A program probably would rather get an applicant who really wants to go to their program. Thus, I think it could help to tell the program you'll rank them #1.

 

[Faebinder]

A program probably would rather get an applicant who really wants to go to their program. Thus, I think it could help to tell the program you'll rank them #1.

Yes please... by all means... ignore everything we discussed above.🙄

 

[Entei]

A program probably would rather get an applicant who really wants to go to their program. Thus, I think it could help to tell the program you'll rank them #1.

I don't adjust the rank list at all based on applicants stating that I am their #1. I guess if there was an absolute tie on my ROL between a few people, it might make a difference about how I ranked them, but the chances of changing your match based on movement up the ROL by a few slots is unlikely.

EDIT: Aww, I can't make a post with just two quotes? I need to actually type something. 😡

 

[ekydrd]

Hmm... this thread is getting more and more interesting by the minute. I have one small piece of advice to give that may seem like a "well duh!" but can have a big impact on your future. Do not rank a program that you know you would be unhappy at. Repeat, DO NOT RANK A PROGRAM YOU KNOW YOU WOULD BE UNHAPPY AT!!!!! There is that chance that you might match there and would be obligated to go there for at least one year of residency. Two of my classmates in 2005 matched at programs they hated, but ranked anyway because they were afraid they wouldn't match anywhere. I left off the one I didn't like, and though I didn't match anywhere and had to scramble, I am WAY better off at this program than I would have been at the other.

 

[Idiopathic]

Since it's a symmetrical algorithm, there is really no 'advantage to the applicant', as there is no advantage to the program.

Now let's end this thread.

Wrong. The advantage lies in that if there is a 'tie' (i.e. two or more programs rank you to match), then the applicant ultimately decides the outcome.

 

[Idiopathic]

Maybe Im naive, but I told my #1 that they were my #1 in early January, with an email to the program director, and i laid out the reasons why (which residents I had met, which attendings I liked, what I liked about the hospital, etc.)

I did this for two reasons: a) to reinforce my name in the mind of someone who hadnt seen me since late September, and b) to increase my chances of getting my #1 (how could it hurt?)

 

[mig26x]

Maybe Im naive, but I told my #1 that they were my #1 in early January, with an email to the program director, and i laid out the reasons why (which residents I had met, which attendings I liked, what I liked about the hospital, etc.)

I did this for two reasons: a) to reinforce my name in the mind of someone who hadnt seen me since late September, and b) to increase my chances of getting my #1 (how could it hurt?)

did it work?

 

[Faebinder]

did it work?

The fact that he is posting means he got his number 1 choice.... but that doesn't mean it worked because he did it.

 

[Idiopathic]

It would show severe lack of confidence if I believed that thats why I got my #1. But again, it couldnt hurt.

 

[Astrocyte]

Wrong. The advantage lies in that if there is a 'tie' (i.e. two or more programs rank you to match), then the applicant ultimately decides the outcome.

You mean like when two applicants rank a program first, and the program gets to choose?

 

[8744]

You mean like when two applicants rank a program first, and the program gets to choose?

Aarrrgghhh. Aarrrrgggggh. Aiiyyeeeee. (He says beating his head against the ground to just make the insane voices in his head go away.)

If two applicants rank a program number one, the first one the algorithm comes to will be placed in a spot in that program if he has been ranked by the program higher than somebody already sitting in one of the spots. And he'll be placed as high up on the list as he can, that is above somebody who was ranked lower by the program. He will push everybody the program ranked lower down one spot which might mean that some poor bastard will drop off the bottom of that program's roster and cannot match there.

Once you are tentatively matched (placed intitially by the algorithm) you have no place to go but down. The competative applicant jsut holds his spot against all challengers.

Deal with it.

So sorry. It's true that the match favors the applicant but the programs do have a big say in it too by how they rank applicants. A more desirable applicant, to the program, if he ranks the program will always displace a less desirable applicant, desirability being expressed by the rank list.

The algorithm will attempt to place the next guy off the stack in the highest spot on the highest program he ranked. If it can't, it will bump down the applicant list of his ranked programs (in the order he ranked programs) until it gets to some poor sap who the program ranked lower, at which time he will be placed in the poor saps spot, the sap will bump down one and if he (the sap) was already at the bottom of the programs roster he's going to Drexel instead of Duke.

I know I tend to "flog my blog" but you really need to visit and read my four articles about the match.