Ranking at some schools makes no sense

[Merely]

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My friend was telling me that at his med school on the west coast only the top quartile is ranked for AOA purposes..so far so good. Then he tells me that they are ranked based on the NUMBER of honors and passes they got for their classes. What that means is like if someone got a 90 (honors) all through the first 2 years in all classes they would be ranked 1 in the class but if someone got all 89s (pass) they would be ranked like out of the top quartile since that would be the same as someone who got 70s in every class since they count as all Ps. Do you guys think thats fair? He's pretty pissed since hes an M2 and he got a few 88s and 89 which drops him like 60 in ranking lol

 

[Merely]

I'm also kind of wondering I guess if P/F/H ranking when you rank based on number of H and not on actual scores in the classes is ethical? I feel like that's not ethical since its not representative of your performance and will keep people who deserve AOA out of AOA...curious to hear thoughts

 

[NickNaylor]

I think it doesn't really matter, and if being AOA is extremely important to you then you should work your ass off to make sure the distinction between 89 and 90 doesn't matter.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Isn't that how GPA works? your percent grade is boiled down to the nearest 4.0 3.7 3.3 or whatever they weigh grades.

 

[sliceofbread136]

It's just like college man. Not optimal then and not optimal now but it's what makes the world keep spinning

 

[Donald Juan]

Isn't that how GPA works? your percent grade is boiled down to the nearest 4.0 3.7 3.3 or whatever they weigh grades.

This. I'd be more surprised if it was based on actual numerical grades. An 80-89 is the same grade, while a 89-90 is an A vs a B. It's been this way since undergrad despite how "unethical" you think it is.

 

[Merely]

You guys think it makes sense that someone who got all 89s is tied for last in the class while someone who got all 90s is tied for 1st? That's not how GPA works GPA distinguishes between A,B,C,D,F thats much bigger of a distinction than P or H in which you are either first or last and there is no middle....

 

[Merely]

Why would anyone be opposed to the most fair way which is just using your actual score?

 

[DrBowtie]

You guys think it makes sense that someone who got all 89s is tied for last in the class while someone who got all 90s is tied for 1st? That's not how GPA works GPA distinguishes between A,B,C,D,F thats much bigger of a distinction than P or H in which you are either first or last and there is no middle....

Sounds like you just want ranking beyond the top quartile. The only reason they do top quartile instead of non ranked is to define the AOA eligible people.

 

[Donald Juan]

Why would anyone be opposed to the most fair way which is just using your actual score?

Because nobody cares about your actual score, they care if you H or P or F.

 

[Merely]

Im fine with just doing top quartile but why dont we use the number you got in the class to define rank so that a person who got all 100s can be a higher rank than a person who got all 90s, am I CRAZY??

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I agree its not a perfect system but if you think this is bad you're going to hate how grades are dished out third year

 

[piii]

This is why straight P/F is so much better.

 

[DrBowtie]

Im fine with just doing top quartile but why dont we use the number you got in the class to define rank so that a person who got all 100s can be a higher rank than a person who got all 90s, am I CRAZY??

I'm guessing it doesn't matter to their AOA criteria.

 

[Merely]

It does though your rank matters to the AOA like if you're 1st vs 15th it matters even if you're top quartile, i think its really messed up and I told him to go try to change the system at the administration level but Im not sure if thats good advice what do you guys think

 

[charmiedermie]

You guys think it makes sense that someone who got all 89s is tied for last in the class while someone who got all 90s is tied for 1st? That's not how GPA works GPA distinguishes between A,B,C,D,F thats much bigger of a distinction than P or H in which you are either first or last and there is no middle....

Except your friend already knew what the intervals were going in - H, P, and F, with no HP. GPA just has more intervals, which again are alreadt known. Transcripts never have the numerical number. That ends in high school.

 

[Slack3r]

Im fine with just doing top quartile but why dont we use the number you got in the class to define rank so that a person who got all 100s can be a higher rank than a person who got all 90s, am I CRAZY??

But won't that breed the "competition" and "gunning" everyone is so afraid of?

 

[Merely]

I'd rather have people gunning who know their info then people who don't study sliding by and being lazy and complacent as hell

 

[Merely]

What im proposing is very simple: do EXACTLY the same thing as they do now in terms of reporting on the transcript except when determining class rank for AOA use numerical percentages so that it is fair for AOA selection. Keep the grades no one care about P or H as long as he gets his AOA since he got like 98s and 89s while others just got a bunch of 91s

 

[Donald Juan]

What im proposing is very simple: do EXACTLY the same thing as they do now in terms of reporting on the transcript except when determining class rank for AOA use numerical percentages so that it is fair for AOA selection. Keep the grades no one care about P or H as long as he gets his AOA since he got like 98s and 89s while others just got a bunch of 91s

Why is this driving you so crazy? It's not even your school or affecting you. There are so few people that this would legitimately affect. And the people who consistently make 90+ grades in med school are hardly lazy slackers as you indicate. They could just as easily argue that they deserve it over somebody who made a couple super high grades but then fell short on certain clerkships/modules.

 

[Temeraire]

Why is this driving you so crazy?

He's asking for a "friend" duh

 

[charmiedermie]

I'd rather have people gunning who know their info then people who don't study sliding by and being lazy and complacent as hell

Keep the grades no one care about P or H as long as he gets his AOA since he got like 98s and 89s while others just got a bunch of 91s

So you want to take the highest grade of Honors and stratify it down even further? Why? Did u have the same complaint in high school, college? Why all of a sudden now? Oh, because it is AOA. You are sounding like a complete gunner right now, and don't even act as if it is about knowing more info. Its because you want to get ahead.

 

[mimelim]

I sincerely hope that by the time you hit the wards in MS3 this doesn't matter to you. And if not, at least by the start of your intern year...

 

[Merely]

Its 100 percent about AOA lol why would anyone deny that. Its bothering me now because P is a huge spectrum its like saying you get an A or an X where X represents B-D, that's kind of annoying to the people who busted their asses to get the B+ but I guess you guys don't see it as I do..
Also to the person who told me I was a gunner...lol I don't think thats an insult? Someone who wants to study hard to get good grades to get into a good residency to become a good doctor isn't something I don't want to be lol
Also this is actually about my friend haha I just think its ridiculous hahah

 

[chronicidal]

Someone who wants to study hard to get good grades to get into a good residency to become a good doctor

Change that to "someone who wants to study hard to become a good doctor"

The question that gives you a 91 rather than a 89 does not indicate that you will become a better doctor. The poor validity of school exams cannot support the fine level of discrimination between students you want.

 

[Merely]

Okay we're def getting off track now, my original question was simply I thought it was kind of ridiculous that someone could get 89s and someones could get 90s and the person who gets 90s is highly ranked + AOA while the person who gets 89s gets a very low rank + no AOA. Obviously you guys don't agree and there are residents who have chimed in so I need to re-evaluate my thought process and tell my friend not to challenge his administration since a lot of you seem to agree with them.

 

[charmiedermie]

Okay we're def getting off track now, my original question was simply I thought it was kind of ridiculous that someone could get 89s and someones could get 90s and the person who gets 90s is highly ranked + AOA while the person who gets 89s gets a very low rank + no AOA. Obviously you guys don't agree and there are residents who have chimed in so I need to re-evaluate my thought process and tell my friend not to challenge his administration since a lot of you seem to agree with them.

Except the person who got a 90 got Honors and the person who got an 89 would at most get a High Pass in the different system. He would still be ranked lower. I think your main issue is the absence of High Pass, which he can argue probably. I mean they won't change it for his class, he'll still look like a gunner, but maybe they'll change it for future classes, but I'm guessing your friend doesn'tcare that much to do that.

 

[WingedOx]

As a perpetual 88-89er when the class average was around 84-85 but still finished in the lower 3rdile when all was said and done because of the system... I feel for you

...but also, Get over it.

 

[Wordead]

Its 100 percent about AOA lol why would anyone deny that. Its bothering me now because P is a huge spectrum its like saying you get an A or an X where X represents B-D, that's kind of annoying to the people who busted their asses to get the B+ but I guess you guys don't see it as I do..
Also to the person who told me I was a gunner...lol I don't think thats an insult? Someone who wants to study hard to get good grades to get into a good residency to become a good doctor isn't something I don't want to be lol
Also this is actually about my friend haha I just think its ridiculous hahah

Winners win bro

 

[pd1112]

I'd rather have people gunning who know their info then people who don't study sliding by and being lazy and complacent as hell

What im proposing is very simple: do EXACTLY the same thing as they do now in terms of reporting on the transcript except when determining class rank for AOA use numerical percentages so that it is fair for AOA selection. Keep the grades no one care about P or H as long as he gets his AOA since he got like 98s and 89s while others just got a bunch of 91s

Its 100 percent about AOA lol why would anyone deny that. Its bothering me now because P is a huge spectrum its like saying you get an A or an X where X represents B-D, that's kind of annoying to the people who busted their asses to get the B+ but I guess you guys don't see it as I do..

1. So you're trying to say you have Honors & some Passes but you should be ranked as high or higher than someone with all honors?
2. So because someone didn't study as hard as you & still got a better grade, something is unfair? He/She is just smarter than you, and/or you need to work harder/smarter if you want a higher score. The sooner you face it, the better, bro.

 

[Summerlax2016]

Eh life is fair because its unfair to everybody, everyone is in the same boat, and the ranking is laid out for you. Can't complain to much about it.

 

[ForHumors]

@OP, I agree with you. In stats, lumping together scores into somewhat arbitrary levels is known as binning and when done improperly can result in a reduction in true variance. Dividing scores between H/P/F certainly does this because the categories are so wide and the standard error of measurement (SEM) is probably (hopefully) way smaller than the 20 point gap between P/F cutoff and H/P cutoff.

It should be pretty clear that someone who has a higher overall numerical average should be ranked higher than someone with a lower overall numerical average and that this numerical average is closer to a "true" representation of how well they know the material than the current system. Most people who get AOA at your school will be people with the highest average numerical score, but people at the margins may get screwed/unfairly benefit depending on their luck. (Why luck? because the distinction between an 89 and a 90 likely IS within SEM.) My thoughts are that binning is done to keep us from freaking out too much over individual points- may be hard on us if we knew that literally every point counted for our rank. However, there's no need to have such little distinction between levels. In undergrad, we at least had A/A-/B+/B distinctions, not just A or B, which retained a greater amount of the true variance

Just because it's always been done like this or that third year is worse doesn't mean that there isn't a better way to do it (or that we shouldn't change it).

 

[Merely]

Thank you! Some of the comments here are so obtuse id thought I'd lost my mind..

 

[Merely]

Like this actually goes to show you how, and I mean this word seriously, stupid, some of you are lol. Many of the comments are a variation of "deal with it" or "3rd year is worse" or "stop being a gunner" lol absolutely irrelevant comments when they don't even answer or address the fact that this is grading system is BLATANTLY irrational and unethical when you think about it. The person above me understands this clearly but so many of you are so stuck in the status quo you're lost in your limited perspectives. This is an illustration of why scientists and other real intellectuals think physicians are so dumb because all we've been taught to do is memorize without being skeptical or thinking about what's going on.

 

[Psai]

Getting 89 once or twice can happen. If you're consistently getting 89s while other people are consistently getting 90s then that's on you, oh wait I mean your friend.

 

[Hangry]

This is why straight P/F is so much better.

So AOA can depend on nothing but third year grades? Sounds terrible.

 

[Hangry]

Like this actually goes to show you how, and I mean this word seriously, stupid, some of you are lol. Many of the comments are a variation of "deal with it" or "3rd year is worse" or "stop being a gunner" lol absolutely irrelevant comments when they don't even answer or address the fact that this is grading system is BLATANTLY irrational and unethical when you think about it. The person above me understands this clearly but so many of you are so stuck in the status quo you're lost in your limited perspectives. This is an illustration of why scientists and other real intellectuals think physicians are so dumb because all we've been taught to do is memorize without being skeptical or thinking about what's going on.

Must be hard being the smartest person on SDN, especially as an MS1. If you've got all the answers, what are you doing here? You should be off reforming medical education at the national level.

 

[Wordead]

Like this actually goes to show you how, and I mean this word seriously, stupid, some of you are lol. Many of the comments are a variation of "deal with it" or "3rd year is worse" or "stop being a gunner" lol absolutely irrelevant comments when they don't even answer or address the fact that this is grading system is BLATANTLY irrational and unethical when you think about it. The person above me understands this clearly but so many of you are so stuck in the status quo you're lost in your limited perspectives. This is an illustration of why scientists and other real intellectuals think physicians are so dumb because all we've been taught to do is memorize without being skeptical or thinking about what's going on.

Guess what dude, the fact that you disagree with everyone doesnt mean you're a free thinker or some ****, it just means you're wrong.

 

[WingedOx]

his is grading system is BLATANTLY irrational and unethical when you think about it.

 

[Flamen04]

This is why fourth year is awesome. No more ****s given about silly stuff like this. Don't worry OP. This too soon shall pass.

 

[Merely]

Normally not a huge fan but she's gorgeous there

 

[sliceofbread136]

I think your neuroticism is now passing the line into psychosis

 

[Donald Juan]

Like this actually goes to show you how, and I mean this word seriously, stupid, some of you are lol. Many of the comments are a variation of "deal with it" or "3rd year is worse" or "stop being a gunner" lol absolutely irrelevant comments when they don't even answer or address the fact that this is grading system is BLATANTLY irrational and unethical when you think about it. The person above me understands this clearly but so many of you are so stuck in the status quo you're lost in your limited perspectives. This is an illustration of why scientists and other real intellectuals think physicians are so dumb because all we've been taught to do is memorize without being skeptical or thinking about what's going on.

*one person on the internet agrees with you*

"Haha see you're all idiots! I was right! I knew it!"

 

[scoKraz4]

What im proposing is very simple: do EXACTLY the same thing as they do now in terms of reporting on the transcript except when determining class rank for AOA use numerical percentages so that it is fair for AOA selection. Keep the grades no one care about P or H as long as he gets his AOA since he got like 98s and 89s while others just got a bunch of 91s

People that goto these programs should know going into it what the expectations are and try to exceed them. If it doesn't happen it doesn't happen. It sucks that it is that way for situations like this. At my school the range for a B is huge so people who barely work get the same grade as those who bust their asses but just fall short of the A. It ain't right, but not worth the effort to change the system.

 

[D4C]

Get some.

 

[chronicidal]

Like this actually goes to show you how, and I mean this word seriously, stupid, some of you are lol. Many of the comments are a variation of "deal with it" or "3rd year is worse" or "stop being a gunner" lol absolutely irrelevant comments when they don't even answer or address the fact that this is grading system is BLATANTLY irrational and unethical when you think about it. The person above me understands this clearly but so many of you are so stuck in the status quo you're lost in your limited perspectives. This is an illustration of why scientists and other real intellectuals think physicians are so dumb because all we've been taught to do is memorize without being skeptical or thinking about what's going on.

Hey I agree with ForHumors but disagree with OP. As ForHumors pointed out, binning is arbitrary and especially sucks when the size of the bins greatly exceeds measurement error. However, binning safeguards student sanity and reduces the amount of anxiety/groveling/arguing over small point differences. I would rather learn in a system where a 92 is worth as much as a 98. With finer discrimination, you are at the mercy of the validity/error of what your professors decide to test. I would prefer P/F, but a second choice is where the size of bins is about 1.5-2x measurement error.

 

[Merely]

Get some.

You could say this about LITERALLY everything posted on all these message boards. If by perspective you mean that we shouldn't try to change things that are minor but could be fixed for the better..you are adding nothing so thanks for being complacent as hell. However, if by perspective you mean "you need to relax Merely since its not a huge deal and there are millions out there who don't have any food or water so even though this is kind of a nuisance and a bit unfair you should be happy and keep that in mind" then I agree with you and thanks for your comment 🙂

 

[NickNaylor]

You could say this about LITERALLY everything posted on all these message boards. If by perspective you mean that we shouldn't try to change things that are minor but could be fixed for the better..you are adding nothing so thanks for being complacent as hell. However, if by perspective you mean "you need to relax Merely since its not a huge deal and there are millions out there who don't have any food or water so even though this is kind of a nuisance and a bit unfair you should be happy and keep that in mind" then I agree with you and thanks for your comment 🙂

How did you go from hSDN member to medical student in 2 years?

 

[Merely]

I used to spend a lot of time in that forum so I got the badge for it, I don't think you need to actually be student in high school or younger to get a badge but I could be mistaken. Anyway, I think that this conversation has been beaten to death so we'll all have to agree to disagree.

 

[BioBA]

I agree with you OP. If the goal of the grading system is to rank those with the most knowledge (or at least best performance on tests) highest, then it is not a good system. Serviceable maybe, but definitely room for improvement. What I have come to realize is that grades in med school have very little correlation with knowledge/clinical skills, and more to do with how well you can game the system. Maybe being good at gaming the system makes you a better physician, I don't know.

I think there is so much apathy here because frankly most people don't give a **** about medical education. I would encourage your friend to start a discussion with the admins. Unless they are jerks, they probably won't care and will at least entertain with a discussion on why the grading system exists.