Ranking Programs by Region

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KBerg21

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I know this has been covered in previous posts in previous years, but much has changed since then (new chairs and program directors, hospital closings, etc.) Obviously, everyone has different criteria for judging programs, but based solely on clinical reputation, how would you rank the New York, New England, Philadelphia, and Washington, DC area programs?

Here's my opinion:
<<NEW YORK>>
1. New York Eye & Ear Infirmary
2. Columbia
3. UMDNJ
4. SUNY-Downstate
5. NYU/MEETH
6. Mount Sinai
7. Cornell
8. AECOM
9. NS-LIJ
10. St. Luke's
11. St. Vincent's (Manhattan)
12. New York Medical College
13. NUMC
14. St. Vincent's (Brooklyn & Queens)
15. Bronx-Lebanon

<<NEW ENGLAND>>
1. Mass Eye & Ear Infirmary
2. Yale
3. Tufts
4. BU
5. Brown

<<PHILADELPHIA>>
1. Wills
2. Sheie
3. Temple
4. Drexel
5. Penn State
6. Geisinger

<<WASHINGTON, DC>>
1. Wilmer
2. GW
3. Georgetown
4. University of Maryland
5. Sinai Hospital of Baltimore
6. Howard
7. Maryland General
 
Tufts is probably better than Yale
NYU is probably better than Downstate
 
Oh, BU is probably better than Yale too
 
i'd keep downstate up there. i'd say penn st over temple and drexel, sinai 2nd below wilmer, georgetown above gw
 
geisinger last? i thought they had a pretty good rep by training just a shotty location?
 
i'd keep downstate up there. i'd say penn st over temple and drexel, sinai 2nd below wilmer, georgetown above gw

Sinai 2nd below Wilmer? Can you elaborate please...ie if they're so good how come Hopkins dropped them?
 
<<WASHINGTON, DC>>
1. Wilmer
2. GW
3. Georgetown
4. University of Maryland
5. Sinai Hospital of Baltimore
6. Howard
7. Maryland General

Hard to say whether Georgetown/wash hosp center is better than University of MD. Neither program really has too many clear advanatages over the other one. Although georgetown's location is a bit better than Maryland's. Otherwise I'd agree with the washington dc area rankings. Some applicants may rank GW over hopkins just b/c the quality of life is so much better. But Hopkins is definitely the overall stronger program.
 
Yes, anyone care to share there thoughts on the programs in the midwest (KS, MO, AR, NE, OK)? I am trying to stay in this area and would be interested in what people feel are the pluses and minuses of these programs when you compare them to each other? I have been to a couple and will be going to a few more.

Thanks
 
Yes, anyone care to share there thoughts on the programs in the midwest (KS, MO, AR, NE, OK)? I am trying to stay in this area and would be interested in what people feel are the pluses and minuses of these programs when you compare them to each other? I have been to a couple and will be going to a few more.

Thanks

I am also interested on staying in the midwest and am curious about these programs. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.
 
Pacific Time Zone:

You won't go wrong with any of the following programs. All are excellent.


Doheny
Jules Stein
UC SF
Casey
UC Davis
UC Irvine
Cal Pacific

I know very little about Loma Linda or U of Washington, so I can't comment.

The first 3 on the list are very academic.

Mountain:
Utah
U of Colorado

Midwest (I'm excluding Texas)

Iowa
Wash U
Univ Wisconsin Madison (though recently on probation, i was very impressed)
U of Oklahoma
U of Illinois Chicago
 
Sinai 2nd below Wilmer? Can you elaborate please...ie if they're so good how come Hopkins dropped them?

As I mentioned before, Wilmer did not "drop" Sinai. It was a mutual decision for both parties. I think Sinai will end up being a good free-standing program with excellent training. Don't forget they also have a ASOPRS-approved fellowship spot (not too many of them around).
 
Doheny
Jules Stein
UC SF
Casey
UC Davis
UC Irvine
Cal Pacific

🙂 Doheny higher than Jules Stein?🙂 . I thought JS was like number 5 vs. Doheny number 9 in the rankings. Maybe I have old information.
 
Yes, anyone care to share there thoughts on the programs in the midwest (KS, MO, AR, NE, OK)? I am trying to stay in this area and would be interested in what people feel are the pluses and minuses of these programs when you compare them to each other? I have been to a couple and will be going to a few more.

Thanks

Of these states of course I don't think anyone would argue about WashU or Oklahoma. As far as the rest my 2 favorites for solid programs are Mizzou and Arkansas.

Texas - I would say you can almost not go wrong with any program here, my top ones are Baylor, UTSW, and A&M. UTSA, UT houston, and Tech are solid programs as well
 
ahhh, JR welcome back! yeah, it's hard to say how much these rankings mean. i mean, is BPEI really better than wilmer? last week's football game aside (USC vs UCLA), i think doheny has some definite advantages over jules stein and jules stein has some definite advantages over doheny. perhaps a better way to rank programs on the west coast would be the following:

ask yourself: am i interested in a career in academic medicine or do i want to go on to a super competitive fellowship like retina or plastics? if you answered yes to any of these questions, your top choices should be:

doheny, jules stein and UCSF (in no particular order).

rather, if your goal is to become an excellent comprehensive ophthalmologist and go into private parctice right out of resideny, you won't go wrong at:

uc davis, uc irvine, cal pacific

does this mean you can't match into a competitive fellowship from these programs? no

does this mean you won't learn how to do compreshensive ophthalomogy at USC, UCLA or UCSF? no.

bottom line, you should go where you are happy and where you feel that you will fit in the most, taking into account your ultimate career goals. soemtimes this comes down to a "gut feeling." when you interview, pay attention to the senior residents; that's how you are going to end up when you graduate from a program. also pay attention to the current 1st years; they will be your chiefs.

good luck to all! interview season is coming to a close...then you get your credit card bill in january! 😉

🙂 Doheny higher than Jules Stein?🙂 . I thought JS was like number 5 vs. Doheny number 9 in the rankings. Maybe I have old information.
 
ahhh, JR welcome back! yeah, it's hard to say how much these rankings mean. i mean, is BPEI really better than wilmer? last week's football game aside (USC vs UCLA), i think doheny has some definite advantages over jules stein and jules stein has some definite advantages over doheny. perhaps a better way to rank programs on the west coast would be the following:

ask yourself: am i interested in a career in academic medicine or do i want to go on to a super competitive fellowship like retina or plastics? if you answered yes to any of these questions, your top choices should be:

doheny, jules stein and UCSF (in no particular order).

rather, if your goal is to become an excellent comprehensive ophthalmologist and go into private parctice right out of resideny, you won't go wrong at:

uc davis, uc irvine, cal pacific

does this mean you can't match into a competitive fellowship from these programs? no

does this mean you won't learn how to do compreshensive ophthalomogy at USC, UCLA or UCSF? no.

bottom line, you should go where you are happy and where you feel that you will fit in the most, taking into account your ultimate career goals. soemtimes this comes down to a "gut feeling." when you interview, pay attention to the senior residents; that's how you are going to end up when you graduate from a program. also pay attention to the current 1st years; they will be your chiefs.

good luck to all! interview season is coming to a close...then you get your credit card bill in january! 😉

Great points, as usual. By the way, BPEI is better than Wilmer- they are in Miami!! :laugh:
 
rubensan...curious about your thoughts on below (from the "Program Compendium" thread).

doheny....

Positives: beautiful location, great autonomy at LA county 1 and 3rd years. Good volume (~125-50 phacos). Big name faculty (esp retina), residents seem to get great fellowships. I think you will be well trained and extremely efficient as a graduate from there. The Chair seems to be very supportive, approachable, and down to earth.

Negatives: the 1st, 3rd years are worked to the bone at County. Many looked dog-tired. Not in of itself, bad, but there is very little ancillary support (techs) at County, and I'm not sure how much you are taught by the bigwig Doheny faculty except for the second year. At county, it looks like you have huge volume immediately, like the first month of 1st year, and there is not that much teaching. Guidance is available from seniors , but they are also busy as 3rd years. I think the County attendings are volunteers.

Misc: one odd thing seems to be the Assistant Chief of Service position. Usually a 1-2 yr position at most progs, but the current ACS has been there for 5 years, and looks to be there indefinitely. If one has questions, you ask your senior, if not ask ACS, if not then an attending. The ACS is mostly at County (2/3 of your time as a resident) has a big role in resident teaching. However the relationship of the ACS with some of the residents seems uneasy. Since you're spending most of your time at County, I think it is key to be ok with working independently (know how do to a through exam) immediately when you start, be able to deal with county staff and mentality, and to get along well with the ACS.

In general, I always wonder what a good balance is on: great autonomy but little supervision (county, va, etc) vs. less autonomy but good teaching (univ hospital etc.)
 
rubensan...curious about your thoughts on below (from the "Program Compendium" thread).

Positives: beautiful location, great autonomy at LA county 1 and 3rd years. Good volume (~125-50 phacos). Big name faculty (esp retina), residents seem to get great fellowships. I think you will be well trained and extremely efficient as a graduate from there. The Chair seems to be very supportive, approachable, and down to earth.

this sums up every reason why i ranked doheny/lac-usc as my #1 choice. just to clarify, LA is great location but LAC-USC is not in a "beautiful" location. i feel that our chair is emblematic of all of our faculty; they are all supportive, well known, down-to-earth and approachable.

Negatives: the 1st, 3rd years are worked to the bone at County. Many looked dog-tired. Not in of itself, bad, but there is very little ancillary support (techs) at County, and I'm not sure how much you are taught by the bigwig Doheny faculty except for the second year. At county, it looks like you have huge volume immediately, like the first month of 1st year, and there is not that much teaching. Guidance is available from seniors , but they are also busy as 3rd years. I think the County attendings are volunteers.

gosh, i hope i am not looking exhausted. i thought my co-residents and i were laughing pretty hard with the applicants yesterday.

i receive a lot of these questions and i always preface this answer by stating that i went to medical school at usc. i knew what i was getting into from the beginning. if you are looking for a program where you are going to work from 9AM - 3PM with all of your weekends off, then doheny (nor wilmer, BPEI, jules stein, uc davis for that matter) should not be your top pick. your first year is hard, i will not deny that as i am writing this on a saturday while on call. but "hard" is relative. i still waltz in at 700 AM, grab my coffee and say hello to my gsurg and IM friends who have allready been there 1-2 hours. we average call q7 (sometimes it's q4, sometimes it's q12) and have 2-3 goldne weekends per month. we do see a lot of patients, if you look at our residency website, the first line reads:

"The general philosophy of the Department of Ophthalmology is that resident education is best provided in the evaluation and management of a wide variety of ocular conditions."

i learn by doing and by seeing and having people show me stuff. you can read all you want about CSME, fuch's endothelial dystropthy, optic nerve head drusen, intermediate uveitis, angle recession glaucoma, accomodative ET and lower lid margin lacs but until you see this stuff and manage it, i don't think you know it.

In general, I always wonder what a good balance is on: great autonomy but little supervision (county, va, etc) vs. less autonomy but good teaching (univ hospital etc.)

the best programs will combine both.

could our county ancillary staff be better? perhaps. are visual accuities checked on all new patients for you? yes. if the ancillary staff like you, do they go the extra mile and check vision and pressures on everyone when you are really busy? yes. is there always an attending (ACS, outside staff, fellow, doheny staff) if you need one. yes, 95% of the time. did i want to go to a program where i saw all private patients and ran all management decsions by an attending? NO!!!! so if that is what you are expecting from your first year, then doheny will let you down. rather if you are looking for a program that balances autonomy (la county) with one-on-one teaching (doheny, childrens hospital LA) then doheny is an excellent place. during our first year, we spend one day a week working with an attending at doheny or childrens hospital LA. at these 2 places, your goal is to learn and not just "get through patients."

look, ophthalmology is clinic-based. it isn't like internal medicine where the team rounds on all the patients and everyone puts the stethoscope on the patient to listen to the murmur. you can't run every patient by someone. the goal of first year should be to master the ophthalmic exam (it is by far the toughest of any field) i.e., indirect ophthalmoscopy, the neuro-oph exam, gonio, peds (motility, retinoscopy it's all a blur until you do it on A LOT of patients). by mastering this, you get to know what normal is pretty qucikly and run the abnormal stuff by someone senior. when you are on call, you realize there are only a few ophthalmic emergencies. we see all of them pretty early on and if you have questions on the other stuff, you arrange close f/u. there is always the senior resident, fellow and ACS to call if you have questions. our seniors are great and they will come in for mac-on RDs and ruptured globes. and don't worry in 2 years, so WILL WE! another goal of 1st year should be getting comfortable in the OR by doing pterygia, minor plastics, ruptured globes, enucleations, muscle surgery and a few extra-caps. doheny meets ALL of these goals and FAR surpasses them.

re: the ACS. i get along fine with our ACS.
 
Westwood, wadsworth VA (Jules Stein) is safer than Los Angeles County (USC) and neighbourhoods like East Baltimore.
 
Rubensan, you wrote:

<<
ask yourself: am i interested in a career in academic medicine or do i want to go on to a super competitive fellowship like retina or plastics? if you answered yes to any of these questions, your top choices should be:

doheny, jules stein and UCSF (in no particular order).

rather, if your goal is to become an excellent comprehensive ophthalmologist and go into private parctice right out of resideny, you won't go wrong at:

uc davis, uc irvine, cal pacific

does this mean you can't match into a competitive fellowship from these programs? no
>>

Where does UC San Diego fit on the list, esp compared to Irvine and CPMC?
Other people's opinions welcomed.
 
Yes, anyone care to share there thoughts on the programs in the midwest (KS, MO, AR, NE, OK)? I am trying to stay in this area and would be interested in what people feel are the pluses and minuses of these programs when you compare them to each other? I have been to a couple and will be going to a few more.

Thanks

So far, my impressions for ranking midwest programs (Quality, and also including resident satisfaction)

Iowa
Oklahoma
Mizzou
Nebraska
Arkansas
UMKC
Kansas
 
i thought oklahoma's program was terrific. i was really impressed with their surgical numbers and how nice the residents were. the faculty there are pretty much near the top of each field..
 
So far, my impressions for ranking midwest programs (Quality, and also including resident satisfaction)

Iowa
Oklahoma
Mizzou
Nebraska
Arkansas
UMKC
Kansas

I thought Nebraska was on the small side and thought the UMKC program had good surgical numbers and subspecialty coverage. Kansas is kind of a wild card with alot changing there. It could be a different program in 2 years.
 
So far, my impressions for ranking midwest programs (Quality, and also including resident satisfaction)

Iowa
Oklahoma
Mizzou
Nebraska
Arkansas
UMKC
Kansas


where would chicago programs go in this list
 
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