Ranking programs

[goinsurg]

Can anyone explain to me how the match works.

I heard two different things,

1- That you should rank the programs according to where you want to go. And there is no penalty if you don't match at the first couple of programs you ranked, since you will get a spot according to how the programs ranked you, as long as you ranked them highly too

2- you should rank programs according to which you think will rank you highly as well. Since the algorithm takes into account both how you ranked the program and how the program ranks you

And is anyone getting that gut feeling everyone is talking about!!! Man, I hate this process

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[alwaysaangel]

Can anyone explain to me how the match works.

I heard two different things,

1- That you should rank the programs according to where you want to go. And there is no penalty if you don't match at the first couple of programs you ranked, since you will get a spot according to how the programs ranked you, as long as you ranked them highly too

2- you should rank programs according to which you think will rank you highly as well. Since the algorithm takes into account both how you ranked the program and how the program ranks you

And is anyone getting that gut feeling everyone is talking about!!! Man, I hate this process

1 is right.

I've always liked the way NMRP explains it on their website. They give a very nicely laid out example that shows you why you should put it in the order you want: http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/algorithms.html

Or to just answer your specific question:

Student A ranks Program X number 7
Student B ranks Program X number 1

However, Program X has ranked Student A as number 7 and Student B as number 8.

Lets say student A doesn't match at any of their first 6 choices, because those programs didn't rank them highly. Now the match will try to fit Student A into Program X and if there is still space (didn't fill with students 1-6) Student A will take the spot over Student B because that is the programs preference (#7 beats #8). So it doesn't matter how low you rank a program, if you have to go that low on your list (because your higher choices are full with preferred students) then you will be matched in order of that programs preference regardless of other students lists.

 

[BigRedBeta]

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS rank your preference. Yes, the match is two sided, but it favors the applicants. For the programs though, unless they're tied up about bragging about how high they managed to stay on their list ("well we only went down to spot 8") while filling their program, the benefit for them is also to rank on preference (the match algorithm is the same one used for undergraduate sorority recruitment, so I've seen - through my female friends - what the "other side" is like), because if you don't rank who you actually want, there's no way they'll end up at your program anyways.

And while everyone says they hate the match, the beauty of it all is that there's no way to game the system. It really is a fair mechanism.

 

[Samoa]

Rtfm

 

[greenbottleblue]

.

 

[alwaysaangel]

I cannot think of a greater imbalance or disservice to us. Please, let's not delude ourselves that anything works in our favor here

I can. How about the way it used to be. You show up to your first interview in November and they offer you a job - with a caveat - if you don't take it now its off the table. You have 9 other interviews, other programs you haven't even heard from, and you're being forced to decide to take or leave an early offer not knowing if you'll ever get another.

That is a far greater imbalance and disservice. Thank goodness for the creation of the match which shifted the power of residency choice back to the applicants (YOU get to create your list and its in your order of preference)

Not everyone uses post-interview contact to say "you're my number one" and any one with a brain (both applicants and programs alike) basically takes no stock in these emails as lots of people lie. Even if they do trust the emails many don't let it affect their ROL because the match will work out one way or another regardless of who say "you're my number 1."

The applicants list takes precedence over the programs. That is why it is a very fair and awesome service. Much better than being unsure of how competitive you are and wondering if you should take a bird in the hand or wait for two in the bush.

 

[smq123]

Moving to ERAS/NRMP.

 

[iceman77_7]

I can. How about the way it used to be. You show up to your first interview in November and they offer you a job - with a caveat - if you don't take it now its off the table. You have 9 other interviews, other programs you haven't even heard from, and you're being forced to decide to take or leave an early offer not knowing if you'll ever get another.

That is a far greater imbalance and disservice. Thank goodness for the creation of the match which shifted the power of residency choice back to the applicants (YOU get to create your list and its in your order of preference)

Not everyone uses post-interview contact to say "you're my number one" and any one with a brain (both applicants and programs alike) basically takes no stock in these emails as lots of people lie. Even if they do trust the emails many don't let it affect their ROL because the match will work out one way or another regardless of who say "you're my number 1."

The applicants list takes precedence over the programs. That is why it is a very fair and awesome service. Much better than being unsure of how competitive you are and wondering if you should take a bird in the hand or wait for two in the bush.

Weird, I feel like I just heard all this yesterday.

In any case, I totally agree with you. All this pre-match list deadline correspondence means nothing.

 

[notdeadyet]

First of all, if folks are getting "bitter and jaded beyond comprehension" by something like the Match, I think they're going to find life to be kind of a let down. On the list of what's unfair and unjust, the Match rates waaaaaaay low on my life list.

Someone please explain the logic behind this: if programs are knowing who ranks them first (via 'love letters' to your #1, and your PD or med school dean calling on your behalf to verify this, which most would agree that they do), by default the programs who don't receive such correspondence (and similarly, the ones who receive 'we're ranking you highly' notes from applicants clearly implies they're not being ranked first, lest this would have been stated), at least have this information at their disposal. The applicants who have no such genuine knowledge of their placement on rank lists (despite the vague 'we'd love to have you here' propositions) are clearly at a disadvantage.

This "disadvantage" is based on the assumption that program directors believe everyone who says "you're my #1." Candidates don't always tell the truth on this and most PDs (from reading their posts on SDN and speaking to them) don't give these #1 statements much weight, if any, when it comes to ranking applicants.

The vague "we'd love to have you here" propositions are taken about as seriously as "you're my #1". That's how it's egalitarian. Everyone says nice things and blows sunshine. This is pretty much how most professional job interviews are done. No biggie.

Not to even mention the backroom conversations that occur between PDs who likely discuss who received #1 letters from candidates (or at least are afforded that option with no realistically punishable outcome).

Cinematic. Not real, but very cinematic. I picture them saying muttering ("rubarb, rubarb, rubarb") while smoking cigars.

I'll say it again, the Match is far more egalitarian than any other interview process you'll find in professional life. If you think there's toadying, favoritism, and unfairness in this process, wait til your first professional job interview. No comparison.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Someone please explain the logic behind this: if programs are knowing who ranks them first (via 'love letters' to your #1, and your PD or med school dean calling on your behalf to verify this, which most would agree that they do), by default the programs who don't receive such correspondence (and similarly, the ones who receive 'we're ranking you highly' notes from applicants clearly implies they're not being ranked first, lest this would have been stated), at least have this information at their disposal. The applicants who have no such genuine knowledge of their placement on rank lists (despite the vague 'we'd love to have you here' propositions) are clearly at a disadvantage. Not to even mention the backroom conversations that occur between PDs who likely discuss who received #1 letters from candidates (or at least are afforded that option with no realistically punishable outcome). I cannot think of a greater imbalance or disservice to us. Please, let's not delude ourselves that anything works in our favor here

N.B. The sorority match comparison is slightly inaccurate: at my undergraduate university, there existed various rounds for which you would get call backs, but you were always guaranteed a match so long as you did not blow off any invitations (and you had to interview at each sorority chapter, >30 at my large school, for first rounds). So this nightmare of a process is hardly comparable.

1) The actual matching process is exactly the same. The method by which you get to rank lists is different but after that, identical. The whole "playing fair" set up in sorority recruitment is an artificial construction meant to protect emotional 18 year old girls. That said, if you ever met a girl who got a bid because she played fair, you'd know that it probably wasn't well received by either the chapter or the recipient.

2) As others have said, you're placing WAY too much stock into the impact of "love letters". Nothing is preventing any student from sending multiple "you're my #1" messages. Surely you realize how many gunners there are out there, for whom gamesmanship is merely a way of life.

3) Even if PD's took those letters at face value, what's the real worth of such a letter? 1 spot, 3 spots, 10 spots on the final rank list? There's absolutely zero benefit for the program director to adjust their list based on love letters. The only scenario I can come up with would be the PD who loves to brag about how they didn't drop below 10 spots or 25 spots on their list to fill. But otherwise, responding to love letters and adjusting because you think an applicant is ranking you highly, is really just moving less desireable candidates above the students you actually want. That's not a winning move.

 

[WingedOx]

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS rank your preference. Yes, the match is two sided, but it favors the applicants. For the programs though, unless they're tied up about bragging about how high they managed to stay on their list ("well we only went down to spot 8") while filling their program, the benefit for them is also to rank on preference (the match algorithm is the same one used for undergraduate sorority recruitment, so I've seen - through my female friends - what the "other side" is like), because if you don't rank who you actually want, there's no way they'll end up at your program anyways.

And while everyone says they hate the match, the beauty of it all is that there's no way to game the system. It really is a fair mechanism.

still, when I was in undergrad I always considered sorority recruitment the stupidest thing imaginable and never understood why they just didn't give out bids. ("Tradition" you say? oh, that's a great reason...)

but even so, I do wish that the match was more like Fraternity recruitment than sorority recruitment... that way I could be offered a spot entirely based on my ability to hang out and watch football.

 

[Substance]

The match has it good points, for instance by preventing what was said above about hard-sell job offers.

I don't know how it works in the USA, but in Canada once you take a position in the match, you can never enter the first round of the match again. You can only enter the second round with all the loser spots. That isn't fair. If you don't match into something you want, you're basically done.

 

[alwaysaangel]

The match has it good points, for instance by preventing what was said above about hard-sell job offers.

I don't know how it works in the USA, but in Canada once you take a position in the match, you can never enter the first round of the match again. You can only enter the second round with all the loser spots. That isn't fair. If you don't match into something you want, you're basically done.

that stinks. In the US you can participate in the math repeatedly if need be. As long as you don't violate match rules.

 

[atsai3]

The match has it good points, for instance by preventing what was said above about hard-sell job offers.

I don't know how it works in the USA, but in Canada once you take a position in the match, you can never enter the first round of the match again. You can only enter the second round with all the loser spots. That isn't fair. If you don't match into something you want, you're basically done.

Why is this not "fair"? Matching into something you don't want is an easily preventable outcome over which all applicants exert volitional control: don't rank a program where you wouldn't want to match.

-AT.

 

[Substance]

Why is this not "fair"? Matching into something you don't want is an easily preventable outcome over which all applicants exert volitional control: don't rank a program where you wouldn't want to match.

-AT.

People change their minds. Fresh-faced graduating medical students usually have no clue as to what their interests are. Trying to get out of a program and into another one is a difficult shady process. Going unmatched in round one and sitting out for another year makes any subsequent matching in your field of interest 20% less likely, regardless of what you do for that year.

 

[DickyV]

but even so, I do wish that the match was more like Fraternity recruitment than sorority recruitment... that way I could be offered a spot entirely based on my ability to hang out and watch football.

That would be fantastic, especially if there was a beer drinking round.

I will say that I came close, when I spent 20 minutes of a 30 minute interview discussing fantasy football teams with a department chairman.

 

[notdeadyet]

People change their minds. Fresh-faced graduating medical students usually have no clue as to what their interests are.

I find it interesting that medical students spend so much time grumping about how they aren't treated like grown-ups until it comes time to something where they're expected to be accountable for their decisions, then the "it's not fair" card gets played.

If you make it through all of medical school and you have "no clue" as to what your interests are, you should sit the year out and do some navel gazing.

Trying to get out of a program and into another one is a difficult shady process.

Exactly. Sit it out if you don't have a clue. If you're deliberating between A and B and you'd be happy in either, make the choice.

Going unmatched in round one and sitting out for another year makes any subsequent matching in your field of interest 20% less likely, regardless of what you do for that year.

Not true. Confusion of causation with correlation? Sitting out for a year on a strong application doesn't make you less likely to match. Most people sit out for a year either because they don't have a strong application or because they're applying to something ridiculously competitive in which a year of research is often used to give them an edge.