Ranking the worst rad onc programs in the nation - for med students

[medgator]

The way to argue for residency contraction which may be fruitless) is only going to be based on something objective (Board scores/pass rate, research, etc). UCSD is in the top 50% of programs. There are programs with legitimate poor performance...these should be the targets.
And the idea that programs are just going to magically pop up with UCSD quality is unlikely. Name a program that started since them with anywhere near the same quality.

...and no I did not train or ever work at UCSD

I've heard Mayo Scottsdale is decent. Doesn't mean it's needed. Or ucsd for that matter

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[drewdog1973]

Forget objective.

take a chainsaw and take a spot from every program. That’s about 70 spots. Good start.

 

[speakeroftruth]

Maybe someone needs to explain it to the boomer chairs in really simple terms:
- if one ape closes residency spot or program, rad onc stock stays still or goes down
- if many apes close residency spots or programs, rad onc stock goes up

 

[Burt Radnolds]

Maybe someone needs to explain it to the boomer chairs in really simple terms:
- if one ape closes residency spot or program, rad onc stock stays still or goes down
- if many apes close residency spots or programs, rad onc stock goes up

apes strong together

 

[RadOncDoc21]

apes strong together

 

[fiji128]

Maybe someone needs to explain it to the boomer chairs in really simple terms:
- if one ape closes residency spot or program, rad onc stock stays still or goes down
- if many apes close residency spots or programs, rad onc stock goes up

This is a recruiter email I received today regarding a med onc position explains why boomer and even non boomer chairs will do anything and everything possible to never decrease residency positions. A market where you would need to pay and retain MDs like that in a city with a real airport is their nightmare scenario

 

[Neuronix]

Maybe someone needs to explain it to the boomer chairs in really simple terms:
- if one ape closes residency spot or program, rad onc stock stays still or goes down
- if many apes close residency spots or programs, rad onc stock goes up

The chairs and PDs who are expanding or refusing to contract are the Melvin Capital in this scenario. They have shorted the specialty. They get rich when the shareholders (rad oncs) get poor.

They don't want to listen to you. They have won the game and the system is rigged in their favor. Now it's all about them getting richer by making the shareholders (rad oncs) poorer.

 

[medgator]

View attachment 331545
This is a recruiter email I received today regarding a med onc position explains why boomer and even non boomer chairs will do anything and everything possible to never decrease residency positions. A market where you would need to pay and retain MDs like that in a city with a real airport is their nightmare scenario

Could've been a rad onc posting a decade ago....

 

[Mandelin Rain]

The chairs and PDs who are expanding or refusing to contract are the Melvin Capital in this scenario. They have shorted the specialty. They get rich when the shareholders (rad oncs) get poor.

They don't want to listen to you. They have won the game and the system is rigged in their favor. Now it's all about them getting richer by making the shareholders (rad oncs) poorer.

I prefer to think of them as the Dukes from Trading Places.

They've cornered the market on residency expansion longs and the only way to make them pay is to "SELL! SELL! SELL!"

(if you're too young to know the reference, find a Blockbuster and rent the damn tape. Make sure to rewind before returning)

 

[medgator]

I prefer to think of them as the Dukes from Trading Places.

They've cornered the market on residency expansion longs and the only way to make them pay is to "SELL! SELL! SELL!"

(if you're too young to know the reference, find a Blockbuster and rent the damn tape. Make sure to rewind before returning)

Really wish Amazon would have bankrolled the TP sequel instead of coming to america. Bet $1 it would have done even better!

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Boomers! Unfortunately, I know these references, including experiences with blockbuster and returning movies without rewinding them.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Blockbuster had the chance to buy netflix for nothing and they said no. They didn’t take actions to prevent their company from going under. Our “leaders” are similar to blockbuster executives. Total losers in long run!!!

 

[ramsesthenice]

Blockbuster had the chance to buy netflix for nothing and they said no. They didn’t take actions to prevent their company from going under. Our “leaders” are similar to blockbuster executives. Total losers in long run!!!

Evolve or die. Its the indisputable reality we can easily see with our own eyes that that almost no one thinks applies to them.

 

[Lamount]

The chairs and PDs who are expanding or refusing to contract are the Melvin Capital in this scenario. They have shorted the specialty. They get rich when the shareholders (rad oncs) get poor.

They don't want to listen to you. They have won the game and the system is rigged in their favor. Now it's all about them getting richer by making the shareholders (rad oncs) poorer.

I am on board with a massive contraction in rad onc residency spots and would acknowledge that the job market isn't in great shape

...but chairs/PDs aren't pocketing profits at the expense of paying docs less. Someone is -don't get me wrong, but it's likely not the rad onc chairs/PDs.

It's useful to acknowledge that chairs/PDs aren't like a soulless greedy hedge fund... ego and fear are likely bigger motivators than greed.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

PDs are not pocketing much. We know this. This is often a thankless job which brings more work and little incentives, other than perhaps it looking good on resume and it might help you move up. Chairs in the other hand I am not so sure. I have met some good decent chairs. Some terrible greedy apes as well. Some make 1-2 million. Administrative lard at the top is also to blame.

 

[medgator]

I am on board with a massive contraction in rad onc residency spots and would acknowledge that the job market isn't in great shape

...but chairs/PDs aren't pocketing profits at the expense of paying docs less. Someone is -don't get me wrong, but it's likely not the rad onc chairs/PDs.

It's useful to acknowledge that chairs/PDs aren't like a soulless greedy hedge fund... ego and fear are likely bigger motivators than greed.

Are you in the know? A chairman posting on SDN? Lol

 

[OTN]

I am on board with a massive contraction in rad onc residency spots and would acknowledge that the job market isn't in great shape

...but chairs/PDs aren't pocketing profits at the expense of paying docs less. Someone is -don't get me wrong, but it's likely not the rad onc chairs/PDs.

It's useful to acknowledge that chairs/PDs aren't like a soulless greedy hedge fund... ego and fear are likely bigger motivators than greed.

Hitting budgetary targets can bring a bonus for department chairs.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I am on board with a massive contraction in rad onc residency spots and would acknowledge that the job market isn't in great shape

...but chairs/PDs aren't pocketing profits at the expense of paying docs less. Someone is -don't get me wrong, but it's likely not the rad onc chairs/PDs.

It's useful to acknowledge that chairs/PDs aren't like a soulless greedy hedge fund... ego and fear are likely bigger motivators than greed.

But a chair who doesn't have to hire NPs/PAs to provide note monkeys for faculty saves on budgetary considerations, and thus looks better to the cancer center director, CMO, and other C-suite level admin. This keeps those folks happyh and less likely to 'pressure' the chair out of the chairman position. Keep those C-suite people happy for long enough, and then maybe the Rad Onc Chair gets to become the leader of the cancer center.

It may not be direct financial compensation, but it's not because these chairs are all stupid that they are keeping their heads in the sand about this. They know it will give them a better chance of moving up the ladder if they maintain the status quo.

 

[Lamount]

Are you in the know? A chairman posting on SDN? Lol

My rise in academics has been truly meteoric. Fellow to chair in 2 years! lol

 

[Lamount]

Hitting budgetary targets can bring a bonus for department chairs.

That's true... but it's also a ton of work. I am sure there are less cumbersome ways to get a bonus... like buying every private practice in a 100 mile radius

 

[Lamount]

But a chair who doesn't have to hire NPs/PAs to provide note monkeys for faculty saves on budgetary considerations, and thus looks better to the cancer center director, CMO, and other C-suite level admin. This keeps those folks happyh and less likely to 'pressure' the chair out of the chairman position. Keep those C-suite people happy for long enough, and then maybe the Rad Onc Chair gets to become the leader of the cancer center.

It may not be direct financial compensation, but it's not because these chairs are all stupid that they are keeping their heads in the sand about this. They know it will give them a better chance of moving up the ladder if they maintain the status quo.

I don't disagree with this. I am sure there is pressure from leadership... like I said it's probably more about pride and fear than it is about greed.

 

[medgator]

That's true... but it's also a ton of work. I am sure there are less cumbersome ways to get a bonus... like buying every private practice in a 100 mile radius

They can walk and chew gum when it comes to their own personal interest and the collective screwing of everyone else in the specialty

 

[evilbooyaa]

They can walk and chew gum ONLY when it comes to their own personal interest and the collective screwing of everyone else in the specialty

FTFY. Walking and chewing gum for the purposes of fixing the Rad Onc field, that's impossible!

 

[radonc17]

That's true... but it's also a ton of work. I am sure there are less cumbersome ways to get a bonus... like buying every private practice in a 100 mile radius

Cash & level of approvals needed for buyout of even 1 PP >>>>> using residents to "run services"

 

[radonc17]

I don't disagree with this. I am sure there is pressure from leadership... like I said it's probably more about pride and fear than it is about greed.

I agree, there is probably an element of pride & fear

Wonder if there are rivalries within PD leadership?

I can just imagine:

"Your program only grew by 12 residents, watch this..."
"My program always matches"

 

[RickyScott]

Interview season starting soon and some of the worst programs like Texas A and M sitting out the match.

 

[SneakyBooger]

It is 90-99% individual.

Agreed

 

[deleted1111261]

Eeek. That’s a very bad sign.

 

[medgator]

Eeek. That’s a very bad sign.

Couple of ways to interpret? Maybe they are doing the right thing and not filling it all, or more likely, they are trying to keep it for an out of match FMG desperate to find any residency position in the US?

 

[deleted1111261]

Fair. But, it seems they are circumventing and just going to offer outside match.

 

[deleted1081396]

View attachment 331545
This is a recruiter email I received today regarding a med onc position explains why boomer and even non boomer chairs will do anything and everything possible to never decrease residency positions. A market where you would need to pay and retain MDs like that in a city with a real airport is their nightmare scenario

What am I looking at here? Is this a job posting from a long time ago when rad onc was still competitive?

 

[medgator]

What am I looking at here? Is this a job posting from a long time ago when rad onc was still competitive?

Read the post underneath. It's a med onc position. Would have been a rad onc position from 2010-2015 or so.

Nowadays that recruiter is probably getting inundated with apps and probably doesn't need to advertise a rad onc position there anymore if it is even a halfway decent location

 

[deleted941485]

i think we passed the point on this a few years ago. Pretty much all of them are a bad deal. The larger ones are merely training cogs for the satellite.

 

[dieABRdie]

Couple of ways to interpret? Maybe they are doing the right thing and not filling it all, or more likely, they are trying to keep it for an out of match FMG desperate to find any residency position in the US?

Bingo. Much better than interviewing 40 people for 1 slot, paying for their travel and dinner, then groveling at their feet for them to grace you with a spot on their rank list..... only to end up SOAPing a desperate FMG anyway.

This is known as "acceptance."

 

[RickyScott]

Would probably take dartmouth out of bottom 10 this year.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

IMO Bottom tier programs to avoid due to combination or single issue: poor job placement/lack of help getting jobs, poor residency experience, subpar educational culture, board failures, tons of scut and service component which vastly outweighs education, history of resident firing/ugliness, brand new program in a saturated area/cheap labor expansion, malignancy, nepotism/corruption. This of course does not mean residents from these places are incompetent. My goal is to guide readers in choosing wisely.

NYP Methodist

Columbia

Northshore LIJ

SUNY downstate
SUNY upstate
Darthmouth

Stony Brook

Allegheny
WVU

Arkansas

Oklahoma

MUSC

Univ of Tennessee 

Baylor

UT-San Antonio

UTMB-Galveston

Texas A&M/Baylor Scott and White
Mississippi

Univ. of Kentucky

Louisville 

Case Western

UC Davis

UC Irvine 

UPMC 

Jefferson

Miami
USC
Loma Linda
Cedar Sinai
Wayne State
Iowa
Univ. Of Minnesota
Nebraska
Any “rumored” hellpit place in the works in any coast, swampy place, whatever

Updated 2022-2023 hellpit list us on the way folks! Not a lot of changes so don’t get too excited.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Updated 2022-2023 hellpit list us on the way folks! Not a lot of changes so don’t get too excited.

you mean you submitted to red journal or will post here? We need anecdotes about each place.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

you mean you submitted to red journal or will post here? We need anecdotes about each place.

Do you disagree with the 2021 list, discuss. Give us your list too

 

[RickyScott]

I would have a new level of respect for sue yom if she accepted this into the red journal.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I would have a new level of respect for sue yom if she accepted this into the red journal.

People need to rest dude. They are exhausted!

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Do you disagree with the 2021 list, discuss. Give us your list too

Don't disagree at all. I just want a sentence or two next to each. Something witty about the location, the chair, etc. I don't doubt your knowledge of hellpit. The list is now infamous enough to warrant more bescumbering.

 

[Neuronix]

I would have a new level of respect for sue yom if she accepted this into the red journal.

So would I. At least we could call it an SDN list since it originated on SDN, unlike the other red journal article that attributed a list on another website entirely to SDN.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

To be fair, there's a "D" in both SDN and Reddit, so you can see the confusion.