Rankings without the BS

[Dukie]

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Ok, so I know from other threads that several of you do not believe in the rankings for various reasons. I am also aware that US News no longer ranks schools. Nonetheless, as several of us are trying to decide on a school, please list your top 5-10 schools in terms of research, clinical preparation, and prestige (minus the BS about the top school is the one which accepts you, which is of course true). I think it would be helpful for several people trying to compare schools. Thanks!

 

[Sprgrover]

...and prestige...

Prestige is subjective, and so is ranking dental schools and therefore you won't find an objective answer on these forums. With that said, I'll list five schools that I believe are noteworthy based on feedback from and discussions with dentists that I know and admire:

UConn
UOP
UCLA
UNC
UW

I'm sure others will post other schools or disagree with my list. I didn't list them in any particular order and those that I listed were ones that either the above dentsits graduated from or praised based on their direct experience with their graduates or knowledge of their program. Don't solely base your decision on the 'prestige' bestowed by others or their opinions as you will have to live with the decision. In my opinion the best school is not just one that picks you but one that satisfies you personally, will meet your professional and personal needs, and is located within a community that you will feel comfortable calling home for four or more years. After all, you'll probably end up in private practice where the institution's name on your diploma will more than likely go unnoticed by your patients. If you are a great practitioner and your patients love you then it doesn't matter if you went to school 'X' instead of 'Y.'

If you are having trouble arriving at a decision then I suggest you post a thread in the dental forum where more dental students and dentists can be found, or go over to DentalTown where a lot more practicing dentists post.

 

[Jone]

in terms of research/academics i'd say (in no particular order)

upenn
columbia
umich
uconn
ucla
ucsf


any school i have not listed is either because i do not know anything about the school, or i do not think the school has a good reputation (probably the former)

 

[amanmann]

anyone have a link to the official rankings from before they stopped doing them?

 

[Biogirl361]

there was a thread about ranking a couple weeks ago with the link on it. try doing a search or looking on page 5-ish.

 

[toony]

here's the site:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=165888

 

[lbennett]

it's bad enough to believe ranks done last year let alone those done 10-15 years ago... it's not even worth looking at those ranks, as facilities, research, faculties and technology have changed toooons since then.

 

[xxdakinexx]

Prestige is subjective, and so is ranking dental schools and therefore you won't find an objective answer on these forums. With that said, I'll list five schools that I believe are noteworthy based on feedback from and discussions with dentists that I know and admire:

UConn
UOP
UCLA
UNC
UW

I'm sure others will post other schools or disagree with my list. I didn't list them in any particular order and those that I listed were ones that either the above dentsits graduated from or praised based on their direct experience with their graduates or knowledge of their program. Don't solely base your decision on the 'prestige' bestowed by others or their opinions as you will have to live with the decision. In my opinion the best school is not just one that picks you but one that satisfies you personally, will meet your professional and personal needs, and is located within a community that you will feel comfortable calling home for four or more years. After all, you'll probably end up in private practice where the institution's name on your diploma will more than likely go unnoticed by your patients. If you are a great practitioner and your patients love you then it doesn't matter if you went to school 'X' instead of 'Y.'

If you are having trouble arriving at a decision then I suggest you post a thread in the dental forum where more dental students and dentists can be found, or go over to DentalTown where a lot more practicing dentists post.

The dentists I have worked with have listed the same, except swap UCSF with UCLA.

 

[JavadiCavity]

I agree with Pacific, but I'm biased. I also support UNC as top school. And from the interviews I went on I'd say this:

NOVA: good school but, clinically, I felt like I'd see less difficult procedures.

Arizona: potential to be a fantastic school after they work out the bugs. I'd give them 5 years--I'd say on the same level as UNC (clinically). Without a full-time faculty, I don't think research is a major priority.

Maryland: with the new facilites, potentially a good clinical program. However, it too has all of the specialties, which means exposure to advanced cases is very limited. Has a good research program.

Michigan: I was poorly impressed with their clinical program. All they seemed interested in touting was their research program. For me, I'm intersted in using my hands when I'm done and not working in a lab on research projects.

VCU: poorer clinical program and weak reseach program. The people were nice, but when I graduate from d-school, I want more than just a good bunch of buddies to keep in touch with.

I'd rank my schools like this:

1-Pacific
2-UNC
4-Arizona
4-Maryland
5-Nova
6-Michigan
7-Maryland

 

[JakeMUSC]

I'd rank my schools like this:

1-Pacific
2-UNC
4-Arizona
4-Maryland
5-Nova
6-Michigan
7-Maryland

Wow, is Arizona really that good already, so early in their existence?

 

[rocknightmare]

vcu that poor in your list ?? wow

 

[edkNARF]

Ok, so I know from other threads that several of you do not believe in the rankings for various reasons. I am also aware that US News no longer ranks schools. Nonetheless, as several of us are trying to decide on a school, please list your top 5-10 schools in terms of research, clinical preparation, and prestige (minus the BS about the top school is the one which accepts you, which is of course true). I think it would be helpful for several people trying to compare schools. Thanks!

I guess you can see from the various opinions that rankings are 100% subjective. What are you looking for in a school Dukie? People may be able to make suggestions based on what your individual goals are.

 

[DrTacoElf]

vcu that poor in your list ?? wow

I disagree with that. While VCU can't compete with UNC I do know 2 dentists who came from VCU who are both doing very well, have great clinical skills and speak highly of the program.

 

[msf41]

MID-WEST SCHOOLS

1-IOWA
2-NEBRASKA
3-UMKC

IOWA-From my limited exposure to schools, which is what I think everyone here mostly has, I would put IOWA at the top of the schools in the mid-west. They have rediculous amounts of research opportunities. And not just opportunity, but they are making real advancements in dental science, and not just academic exercises. Sure every school says they have great research, but look who's getting the research money and you will see who is producing. They have a great sim lab. Possible negative would be questionable patient pool, of which I can't account for.

NEBRASKA- I pick them second behind IOWA because of limited research opportunities. Statistically Nebraska has scored in the top ten highest board 1 and 2 scores among all 50 dental schools for the past decade. Their clinic has been remodeled recently. New sim lab with closed circuit television for demonstrations. Clinic is much busier than you would think. Class size 35, which is great for personal attention. Lincoln is a great town of 250K.

UMKC-Another school that I think is flying under the radar of a lot of you east coast west coast types is UMKC. Not a contender for the top spots on rankings, but they are the ONLY school in the nation that has 100% paperless clinic. Digital radiography, charting, records. Even if you want to pull up stuff from 10 years ago before the digital charting, every record has been scanned in so no running to the records room. Technology like that counts for something. Kansas city has an endless patient pool. Just something for you big city types to think about when you are applying.

 

[JavadiCavity]

I disagree with that. While VCU can't compete with UNC I do know 2 dentists who came from VCU who are both doing very well, have great clinical skills and speak highly of the program.

My comparison of schools is only based on what I experienced through interviewing. I'm sure most schools turn out good dentists. But, part of my interview didn't include visiting with school alumni and "watching them in action." So, there is no way for me to say you'll be a bad dentist or good dentist based on my interviews.

As for Arizona, they have the potential to become a great clinical school, and I think we will know in the next 5 years. Even though their program is somewhat unorthodox (as compared to other programs), I still think they are on to something good. I didn't rank them higher because I didn't have as much to base my judgment on. And, I didn't rank them lower because campared with VCU, Michigan, and NOVA, I thought they were at least as good and better in a few areas.

 

[Dukie]

I think I'm looking for a school that will be looked favorably on by others and by specialty programs, but also one where I will not feel that I am in a constant competition with my classmates. But what I am basically asking is if you were US News, how would you rank the schools? The info you all have provided so far has been very useful.

 

[DrTacoElf]

Looking at your list I would go to UNC or Columbia or Marlyand. Although an interviewer at VCU said Maryland is very cutthroat (not sure if this is accurate or not).

 

[jk5177]

I would also add... 9) Amount of alumni contribution.
To me that may say a thing or two about how satisfied the alums are.

 

[Sprgrover]

I would also add... 9) Amount of alumni contribution.
To me that may say a thing or two about how satisfied the alums are.

I agree with that statement.

 

[tsu05]

MID-WEST SCHOOLS

1-IOWA
2-NEBRASKA
3-UMKC

IOWA-From my limited exposure to schools, which is what I think everyone here mostly has, I would put IOWA at the top of the schools in the mid-west. They have rediculous amounts of research opportunities. And not just opportunity, but they are making real advancements in dental science, and not just academic exercises. Sure every school says they have great research, but look who's getting the research money and you will see who is producing. They have a great sim lab. Possible negative would be questionable patient pool, of which I can't account for.

NEBRASKA- I pick them second behind IOWA because of limited research opportunities. Statistically Nebraska has scored in the top ten highest board 1 and 2 scores among all 50 dental schools for the past decade. Their clinic has been remodeled recently. New sim lab with closed circuit television for demonstrations. Clinic is much busier than you would think. Class size 35, which is great for personal attention. Lincoln is a great town of 250K.

UMKC-Another school that I think is flying under the radar of a lot of you east coast west coast types is UMKC. Not a contender for the top spots on rankings, but they are the ONLY school in the nation that has 100% paperless clinic. Digital radiography, charting, records. Even if you want to pull up stuff from 10 years ago before the digital charting, every record has been scanned in so no running to the records room. Technology like that counts for something. Kansas city has an endless patient pool. Just something for you big city types to think about when you are applying.

I second UMKC. I visited UMKC and UConn and I can say that while UConn may offer a much tougher didactic curriculum, UMKC has a better structure to their clinical program IMO. UConn, however, shares classes with their medical school, so you have much bigger class sizes (thats the reason their NBDE I scores are so high). I chose UMKC over UConn despite what the rankings say. The main reason they are flying under the radar is that they don't really accept people that aren't from Missouri or Kansas (80% MO, 15% KS, 5% other).

 

[jessUMD]

Looking at your list I would go to UNC or Columbia or Marlyand. Although an interviewer at VCU said Maryland is very cutthroat (not sure if this is accurate or not).

i think every school is that doesn't have PBL is probably "cutthroat" to some extent - everyone has worked really hard to get to where they are and no one is willing to take it down a notch, unfortunately.

 

[Bullfan16]

People...I am not one to cause controversy but here goes:

Javidi, I dont doubt UOP is a great school, but honestly how does one learn what it takes to be a top notch dentist in 3 years? I know UOP is this mysterious magical place that churns out the "best" dentists in the land, but lets be real here. Brocnizer even said 4 years of dental school is too short...how can going to 3 years of school (disregarding finances) be advantageous? All of the people admitted there have stellar stats and are going to be great dentists but I wouldnt apply to the school (for starters I dont have the numbers to do so) even if I could. I want to take the most time possible to try to maximize my potential and learn as much as I can.


Dukie...go to the school where you will get the highest class rank, you fit in the best and are most comfortable. This ranking stuff is very subjective, you ask one person and you will get one answer and you ask another and you will get another opinion (ironic that dentistry is the same way.....in clinic one professor can see your work as very good while the other can say its garbage). After talking to many dentists, I have concluded that it doesnt matter where you go as long as you stay in the top 10-20% of your class, which will allow you to specialize at pretty much any school anywhere in the US. Score well on the boards and be a gunner and you will make it. End of story. Me personally, I would want to go to the school where I thought I had the potential to be at the top of my class (if I wanted to eventually specialize). I have also heard that if you want to specialize badly enough and dont quite have the grades, it will happen, eventually. One other thing to keep in mind...start dental school first....work hard...see how you do and what you like...you could end up not wanting to specialize at all after 4 years of professional school "hell". Read this stuff with a grain of salt...come up with your own conclusions.

Lastly, those who applied to or received acceptances to UOP congrats....I am not trying to bash the school in any way....its just an opinion.

 

[jk5177]

i think every school is that doesn't have PBL is probably "cutthroat" to some extent - everyone has worked really hard to get to where they are and no one is willing to take it down a notch, unfortunately.

In addition to that reason, even if people want to take down a notch, they probably wouldn't know how.

 

[45540]

Harvard's the best, everyone knows that.

I'm sure you know i'm kidding, i just love watching these weekly debates.

so for the record, UT-Memphis is the best, because that's where i go.

 

[JavadiCavity]

Javidi, I dont doubt UOP is a great school, but honestly how does one learn what it takes to be a top notch dentist in 3 years? I know UOP is this mysterious magical place that churns out the "best" dentists in the land, but lets be real here. Brocnizer even said 4 years of dental school is too short...how can going to 3 years of school (disregarding finances) be advantageous? All of the people admitted there have stellar stats and are going to be great dentists but I wouldnt apply to the school (for starters I dont have the numbers to do so) even if I could. I want to take the most time possible to try to maximize my potential and learn as much as I can.

No one is a top notch dentist after dental school--3 or 4 years. After graduation, we are all safe beginners. Some will be more competent than others at certain procedures, but not experts. I assume you really hit your stride years after graduation.

I've heard this same comment from 2 or 3 dentists. Each went to a 4-year school and wondered how it is possible to fit it all into 3. I honestly don't know and I'm not going to make something up. However, the ADA thinks highly of the school and and their program. If there were any problems, I'm sure they'd be forced to alter the program or lose accrediation.

With that said, I do maintain that Pacific has a more comprehensive clinical program than any other school I visited. The only procedures that we are shorted on are ortho. And, clinical experience carried more weight than any other aspect of the programs.

In the end, the more exposure you've had dealing with different procedures of varying difficulty, the better PREPARED you'll be to start working. And Pacific has excellent program that allows me to perform procedures I wouldn't be permitted to do at other schools.

 

[JRA181]

I think I'm looking for a school that will be looked favorably on by others and by specialty programs, but also one where I will not feel that I am in a constant competition with my classmates. But what I am basically asking is if you were US News, how would you rank the schools? The info you all have provided so far has been very useful.

I interviewed and got accepted to similar places as you: Temple, Pitt, Maryland, Buffalo, Michigan, and VCU...and even though I'm a PA resident I decided on Maryland the other day...you can't beat a brand new dental school, and i talked to a dentist that graduated fromt ehre 4 years ago, and she said everyone she knows that tried to get in state residency was able to, which isnt what I had originally heard...so if you're cool and fun go to Maryland!! 😀

 

[ecrdoubles15]

why didnt you pick michigan, its top five. and it sends all its students that want to go into residence into residence. 100%

 

[Biogirl361]

why didnt you pick michigan, its top five. and it sends all its students that want to go into residence into residence. 100%

it's very hard to get residency status at michigan. the dean herself said so at my interview and also i know people who got residency at other michigan schools for undergrad and went to undergrad here, have family in and have lived in MI for like 7 years and still were not able to get residency at UM for dental school. call them and check it out for yourself if you're interested.

*edit* oops, i thought you meant residence as in in state tuition. if you meant as in specialties, disregard the above 🙂

 

[ItsGavinC]

why didnt you pick michigan, its top five. and it sends all its students that want to go into residence into residence. 100%

Top 5 of what? Academics, football, clinical experience, new facilities, research, retention, specialty placement, housing market, weather?

Also, nearly ANY school can send all students into residency if they desire to do so. Residency isn't just specialty programs, but also includes AEGD/GPR programs, which can be VERY easy to get into (while others can be VERY hard).

So, when schools spit out their "match percentage" or "residency percentage" or any other post-grad figures, keep in mind that those numbers probably include AEGD/GPR numbers as well.

 

[ecrdoubles15]

anyways everyone knows michigan is up there around top 5. who cares about the rest of the bs.

 

[J2AZ]

anyways everyone knows michigan is up there around top 5. who cares about the rest of the bs.

Just b/c you say it over and over does not make it so. You need to back it up...

 

[aphistis]

Seems like a few folks haven't caught on yet that "rankings without the BS" is an impossibility. One's BS is another's vital selection criterion. The two are mutually inclusive.

 

[ecrdoubles15]

everyone knows michigan is up there, just like they know UCSF or harvard is up there. even if there are no rankings, we no that. michigan gets most of the research money, most dental books that schools use are done by michigan professors. your right, there are no true rankings, but come one we no whos on top and whos not. would we ever compare harvard with meharry or howards, NO WAY! Im not sayign that i liek or even want to go to michigan or harvard, but we know they are up there

 

[edkNARF]

everyone knows michigan is up there, just like they know UCSF or harvard is up there. even if there are no rankings, we no that. michigan gets most of the research money, most dental books that schools use are done by michigan professors. your right, there are no true rankings, but come one we no whos on top and whos not. would we ever compare harvard with meharry or howards, NO WAY! Im not sayign that i liek or even want to go to michigan or harvard, but we know they are up there

You are basing your judgement on criteria such as research funding. Others on the forum may base rankings on clinical experience. Location is also a big factor in choosing a dental school. When I was deciding where to apply, I "ranked" schools based on location. For this reason I did not conisder places such as Michigan, even though "everyone knows michigan is up there." If someone is from Washington, DC and they want to stay close to home, Howard may be their number one choice. I have only heard good things about the strength of the clinical curriculum at Howard, so it may be number one of somebody's list. Maybe someone would even consider going to Howard over Harvard! 😱

 

[ecrdoubles15]

i know what you are getting out. but take away location and all other bs. please man, without any bs. i dont care abotu location or whatever. michigan also ahs good clinical. man you guys are so stupid. stop trying to make yourself feel better. be honest. so say i dont liek where harvard is located, i still know its the best. everyone has their own rankings, but that is just to make tem feel good about where they are going. grow up!

 

[JavadiCavity]

sounds to me like you are trying to convince yourself that something is really good. kinda like the radicals in Iraq who actually believe that the USA is a giant ***** and abomination--the great evil. i'm sure they have polls.

 

[Sprgrover]

...everyone has their own rankings, but that is just to make tem feel good about where they are going. grow up!

And that is what some of the members are trying to help you realize: saying "it's up there" is vague and insufficient and that you are operating under the misguided assumption that the glory and aura of a school is innate - obviously it's not as a lot of people disagree on 'top' choices. It seems that it is you, and not them, that need such a list to validate your opinions. Still confused? Perhaps you should revisit aphistis' post:

Seems like a few folks haven't caught on yet that "rankings without the BS" is an impossibility. One's BS is another's vital selection criterion. The two are mutually inclusive.

 

[ecrdoubles15]

i am not sayign that harvard it gfood, i actually think it sucks, but it is up there and if i got accepted i woudl go there just becasue its top and it culd help me get into specialty

 

[Dukie]

This is exactly what I was trying to avoid when I made this thread. I don't care at all whether you think rankings should be done or whether they are subjective. Of course they are. All I asked was what you would list as your top 5-10 schools based on research, clinical prep, and prestige/reputation. I think this would be useful for both myself and others. Please save the drama for another thread.

 

[ecrdoubles15]

exactly dude, everyone has their own ideas, and its not my fault people dont let me say my thoughts. so its their fault not mine. that is what i think is the top, so you guys shoudl just listen instead of writing back with you stupid remarks

 

[Sprgrover]

...they are subjective. Of course they are...

Unfortunately it's because of this that such threads degrade into egos and broomsticks.

 

[J2AZ]

1994 (used for 1997) U.S. News Top 12

1)San Antonio
2)North Carolina (I think they are on probation right now)
3)Iowa
4)Michigan
5)Washington
6)Buffalo
7)Alabama
8)UCSF
9)Indiana
10)Maryland
11)Minnesota
12)UCLA

1992 Gourman Report Rankings comments are by Mike, some guy who had these rankings on his web page
1) Harvard (If you have an ego go here. They accept the best!)
2) UCSF
3) Michigan
4) Columbia
5) Penn (In a bad neighborhood)
6) UCLA (in a very rich neighborhood)
7) Ohio State
8) Tufts - (OK place according to one student)
9) NYU
10) Minnesota- (if you like the cold go here. Good school)
11) Illinois
12) Washington (highly prefers in-state residents)
13) Buffalo (do you know how cold it gets there?)
14) Temple (Nice school but in a dumpy neighborhood, otherwise a must apply)
15) Creighton
16) USC (In bad neighborhood and had a poor CA licensure pass rate in the year 2001)
17) Marquette
18) Case Western (spoke with some people and they enjoyed their experience)
19) Pitt (good experience, but many patients opt for extractions...poor patients)
20) North Carolina
21) NOVA
22) Indiana
23) Iowa (have new sim lab)
24) Stony Brook
25) Baylor (good school, housing is easy to find close by)
26) San Antonio (good school)
27) Oregon
28) Louisville
29) Boston U. (private and expensive. A must apply for those with shaky stats)
30) University of Pacific (expensive , but only 3 years!)

The 2004 J2AZ rankings based on what I think and nothing moreRankings:

Clinical:
1)Leaving off b/c have not heard from school
2)UOP (only 3 yrs so cant be #1)
3)Temple
4)AZ (we will see but I odds are on their side)
5)All state schools apart from UCLA, Michigan (may suffer b/c of location),

Research:
1)UCSF
2)Harvard
3)Michigan
4)PENN
5)PITT

Balanced Education:
1)PITT (Is it state or is it private?)
2)All state schools

 

[ItsGavinC]

most dental books that schools use are done by michigan professors.

LOL, so instead of teaching they spend their time writing books.

Actually, most of the gold standard dental books are NOT from Michigan professors.

 

[edkNARF]

This is exactly what I was trying to avoid when I made this thread. I don't care at all whether you think rankings should be done or whether they are subjective. Of course they are. All I asked was what you would list as your top 5-10 schools based on research, clinical prep, and prestige/reputation. I think this would be useful for both myself and others. Please save the drama for another thread.

Dukie, I wish I could help you make a list, but I can't. I honestly know about the schools that I chose to apply. You probably have made a personal ranking of these schools already, and are looking for validation from the rest of SDN. If you haven't then you might want to research the schools some more. You want to know about research, ask the school how much money they get in funding. You want to know about clinical prep, ask about their clinical requirements. You want to know about prestige, look at US News.

 

[grant555]

Dukie...go to the school where you will get the highest class rank, you fit in the best and are most comfortable. This ranking stuff is very subjective, you ask one person and you will get one answer and you ask another and you will get another opinion (ironic that dentistry is the same way.....in clinic one professor can see your work as very good while the other can say its garbage). After talking to many dentists, I have concluded that it doesnt matter where you go as long as you stay in the top 10-20% of your class, which will allow you to specialize at pretty much any school anywhere in the US. Score well on the boards and be a gunner and you will make it

.

End of story. Me personally, I would want to go to the school where I thought I had the potential to be at the top of my class (if I wanted to eventually specialize). I have also heard that if you want to specialize badly enough and dont quite have the grades, it will happen, eventually. One other thing to keep in mind...start dental school first....work hard...see how you do and what you like...you could end up not wanting to specialize at all after 4 years of professional school "hell". Read this stuff with a grain of salt...come up with your own conclusions.

I agree with those thoughts. I think it makes the most sense to go where you will fit in and do well. Commit yourself to being the best in school and when you graduate work everyday in practice to become the best you can be. As long as you work consistently at improvement, you will be a competent and well-respected clinician no matter where you graduate from. Don't let the opinions of others decide what is best for you. If I had done that I would still be at Burger King making Whoppers. Best of luck to all.

 

[ecrdoubles15]

exactly people