Rant about undergrad research :(

[giza]

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Hey guys. I need advice, inspiration, tough love, an ear to lend, whatever you can offer. I started doing research last semester with a grad student. My PI and I had a discussion about the project I would be conducting, however my mentor misunderstood the project. My PI had wanted to compare cell migration between two types of cells (cancerous, normal) considering some specific molecular characteristics, and I had asked my mentor multiple times why we weren't doing labeling for those characteristics over the semester. Anyway, he taught me the lab techniques, but he hovered a lot, looking over my shoulder which was ok at first (I wanted to know if I was doing things right since I had no clue). When I had my progress meeting at the end of the semester, my PI found out that I wasted a semester doing the project wrong. She was still very understanding, though.
So despite this, I got a fellowship to do research over the summer. This time the research is fulltime and I haven't been getting along with my research mentor at all. I guess 40+ hours/week is too much research and I'm getting sick and tired of my mentor constantly looking over my shoulder at everything I do. Granted alot of the things I try fail and my lab techniques aren't great, I really dislike that he's always hovering over me and its only become more apparent that hes always hovering over me now that I'm working longer hours. I've become very snippy, rude, and disrespectful to him, but I can't help it in the moment when I'm trying to establish some personal space and he's practically breathing down my neck. In fact, a couple of weeks ago, I was in tissue culture room, splitting cells when he came in to hover and I just stopped and asked him, "What do you want?". We aren't really having discussions about science anymore, or talking much to eachother for that matter. At this point I feel like I've dug myself a hole and broken a bridge. The other people in the lab know how rude I've been, but I don't think they understand how annoyed I get when I feel like an animal in the zoo being watched all the time. If my mentor finds out how bad our mentor-mentee relationship is, I feel like I'll be kicked out of the lab or no one will want to mentor me. In the three month of summer, I was supposed to design a plasmid expressing sirna, start a line of cells with KO gene, and then compare migration results using these tools; I have accomplished none of these. I'm frustrated and so close to quitting, but I've been in the lab for two years and don't know if I'd be able to establish myself in another lab and get a eLOR, etc. What do I do? What do I say to my PI at the progress meeting at the end of the summer?

TLDR: I hate my research mentor with a burning passion and I am about to get kicked out of the lab.

 

[hoihaie]

have you tried talking to him directly?

 

[LMBLBM]

Good old research drama. First, i would apologize to your research mentor. You are disposable. Your mentor has many means to attack you but you have none against your mentor. Apologize to your mentor and discuss with your PI

 

[Euxox]

Granted alot of the things I try fail and my lab techniques aren't great.... I've become very snippy, rude, and disrespectful to him, but I can't help it in the moment when I'm trying to establish some personal space... In fact, a couple of weeks ago, I was in tissue culture room, splitting cells when he came in to hover and I just stopped and asked him, "What do you want?"

I'd try politely explaining to your mentor (a grad student, I assume?) that you'd like a little more independence. But honestly, based on the above, it sounds like the problem here lies with you. What would you do in med school if your attending or resident wanted to observe you while you did a physical? Would you get snippy with them as well? Life lesson: You almost never get to choose your bosses and your coworkers, so you have to learn to get along with them even if you dislike them.

It sounds like you actually have a rather helpful grad student. Many grad students, if given the option, would ignore their undergrads entirely and focus more energy on their own research. Your mentor, on the other hand, noticed that you've been having trouble with certain lab techniques and has taken the time to step you through them, even after several months. Sounds like your mentor deserves a lot more respect than you afford him.

 

[giza]

oh and attack me he has. its either he's watching and critiquing every muscle twitch I make while pipetting or i do the entire experiment alone.

 

[Frostbite22]

I agree with other posters as already said above. I would have a sit down with your mentor, before you do this though, please make sure you are absolutely calm and feeling no anger towards them. Otherwise, the meeting will go poorly. Apologize and say you guys got off on the wrong foot and express your feelings. Remain professional, and be sure to address the issue with the grad student before having to talk to your PI. If you end up talking to them and you still feel you guys just aren't compatible move on to another lab.

 

[Euxox]

oh and attack me he has. its either he's watching and critiquing every muscle twitch I make while pipetting or i do the entire experiment alone.

Are these critiques insults (you don't know what you are doing, that's a terrible job, etc.) or suggestions (try holding the pipetter closer to the tube, don't forget to change the tip)?

If it's the former, that is an issue. I'd suggest first talking to your mentor and explaining that you sometimes feel a bit hurt by his comments and would prefer a lighter tone of feedback. If that doesn't work, speak with your PI.

If it's the latter, you need a change of attitude.

 

[Amba]

oh and attack me he has. its either he's watching and critiquing every muscle twitch I make while pipetting or i do the entire experiment alone.

I assume what you're working on is part of his/her thesis and is therefore important, and not just a random side project. Granted, some grad students are better mentors than others, but the tendency to micromanage is somewhat understandable (I tend to be the same until I completely trust the person...which takes a while). A grad student who wants to graduate in a reasonable amount of time would not spend hours looking over your shoulder just for fun.

Like others have said, sit down and let him/her know how you feel. But until you perfect the technique(s), I wouldn't expect a whole lot to change Just do your best to fix the dynamic of your relationship with him/her.

 

[giza]

i honestly feel like my research project is a side project with a straw hypothesis that was designed just purely because i had was awarded this fellowship with no cost to them to do research. i guess i have developed an attitude problem, Euxox, I will admit that, but I have been very patient. I never criticized him when he got such a huge detail of my project wrong and ignored my questions about it and I had to endure my PI's disappointment at the end of the semester after I had done so much work. I never criticized him when he ordered the wrong primers and i did a cloning five times and wasted a month and half over this summer. I guess all the resentment just built up and it just seems so hypocritical to me that he scrutinizes how i perform a protocol, when he has dropped the ball on me too.

 

[nemo123]

But when you had all those questions about asking your mentor "why you were not labeling for those molecular characteristics," is there a reason why you didn't talk with your PI directly during that time?

Generally, I tend to update my PI on the results I've gotten from time to time (even if it's by email) so that my PI, my mentor, and I are on the same page and so that we can clear up misunderstandings way before we get deep into the project.

Anyways, a couple of my friends had the same exact issues as you, and they were stressed 24/7 about lab work. One of them of pretty much bullied by her mentor and ended up asking her PI to give her a postdoc to work with instead (citing that the postdoc had more knowledge about a specific technique).

 

[ridethecliche]

There are times when you go directly to the PI to clarify things and you waited too damn long.

 

[starstarie]

i honestly feel like my research project is a side project with a straw hypothesis that was designed just purely because i had was awarded this fellowship with no cost to them to do research. i guess i have developed an attitude problem, Euxox, I will admit that, but I have been very patient. I never criticized him when he got such a huge detail of my project wrong and ignored my questions about it and I had to endure my PI's disappointment at the end of the semester after I had done so much work. I never criticized him when he ordered the wrong primers and i did a cloning five times and wasted a month and half over this summer. I guess all the resentment just built up and it just seems so hypocritical to me that he scrutinizes how i perform a protocol, when he has dropped the ball on me too.

There is never no cost to them, just FYI. These people give up a lot of time and energy to work with you, even if you don't see it. Even if you have outside funding, they are investing in you. This situation sucks. Miscommunications are really a shame, usually with a fault of both parties. Regardless of what happens, I hope you learn some good lessons for the future here.

 

[Goro]

100% concur. If you want to salvage anything about this, be an adult and professional and ask to have a talk with both the mentor AND the PI. Get this worked out.

Good old research drama. First, i would apologize to your research mentor. You are disposable. Your mentor has many means to attack you but you have none against your mentor. Apologize to your mentor and discuss with your PI

 

[URHere]

It seems strange to me that a graduate student would hover for no reason. Are you sharing supplies or equipment with him (culture hood, media, sequencing equipment, etc)? If so, he may be afraid of losing time due to broken equipment or contamination. If this is the case, it may be worth it to make your lab space and equipment as separate from his as possible so that he wouldn't be affected if you messed something up. As for large/expensive equipment, it may be best to talk with him and promise that you'll come find him before using such machines on your own.

Regardless, you need to have an honest, sit down discussion with this student. Voice your concerns non-confrontationally and listen openly to any feedback the student may have. If that still doesn't fix anything, the two of you should be open with the PI about your personality conflict and see if you can work out an alternate arrangement. Regardless, you need to stop snapping at this person - right now you are at the bottom of the food chain, and you don't have the option of pulling an attitude. Even if the student is being unprofessional, you still need to handle it in a professional way.

 

[Lamel]

You shouldn't have been so rude to him. Try to apologize and explain why you've been acting the way you are.

 

[TheShaker]

Have you been doing your work correctly? If I were to think about it in your mentor's eyes, it's really frustrating when protocols don't work in general but it's even more frustrating when a less skilled (no offense) worker with a bad attitude is doing it. You can understand why he would hover over what you're doing because the results of your work are more likely to impact his future than your own. Also, he might just be a neurotic person (like me) and can't stand to have somebody else do something important, which I admit probably isn't the greatest trait in the world. On the surface, I feel like your behavior is fairly disrespectful, especially since you're not communicating openly about your problems and instead seething to the point where other people in the lab are aware of your behavior. In my experience, somebody on the lower end of the totem pole acting like this can get pretty deep under a person's skin. I know you can't really tell much about a situation by a post on an online forum though, so just think about what you've been doing.

I really think about you should just air out your feelings though. Most reasonable people will at least work with you.

 

[mysdnhandle]

If your research lab is bringing you down leave it. Your undergrad years are your best years and research is not necessary.

Although it does sound like you are being unnecessarily confrontational, researchers do have a tendency to micromanage...but that's because if you mess something up it could be a lot of lost money, and money is tight in research these days. Put yourself in their shoes. To you, it isn't a big deal if something messes up--you have no liability, you're an undergrad. To them, some samples may be worth their weight in gold. To researchers who are international or on a visa it could mean their ability to live in this country. Research is a completely different game than medicine and researchers can be very different from physicians. Some people can't function in the world and go into research to avoid it. I'm serious. Some researchers can happen to be very outgoing. If you are incompatible with working in a research environment (which is ok, I wasn't a huge fan of it either) I'd recommend you shadow instead. You'll have a lot more to talk about in interviews. My personal opinion is that the academic biomedical research enterprise ends up using premeds too much. You don't need to do research to get to med school.

 

[Uafl112]

**** mentor's dude. At my last gig, the mentor was a condescending **** who didnt like me from day 1 because he thought I would fail.

That being said, you are gonna have set things straight with him as well as your PI. Start fresh and make sure everyone is on the same page.

 

[Shirafune]

First and foremost, you are an undergrad and your mentor is taking the time to teach you techniques so that you will become a valuable asset to the lab and hopefully that you will gain a meaningful experience out of it as well. Undergrad research can be a pain in the butt to start simply because you literally have no experience and will likely screw up many things. And it's frustrating. It's so dam frustrating that you want to quit. I've been there, but you have to push through it. There is no excuse to be rude to your mentor. If something is bothering, be polite, but upfront about it.

If you have problems in lab, use google. There are so many answers for protocol troubleshooting out there that you could easily try them out yourself to see what issues your experiment has. If you can't figure out what you're supposed to do or how you're supposed to do it, you need your mentor. He needs to HOVER over you to make sure you know what you're doing. He should give you ADVICE and TRAIN you. If you can do things by yourself already, then express this to him. Let him know that you are comfortable working independently.

To summarize, stop being rude, make up with your mentor, and figure out why you're not making good progress in your research. Don't complain about your mentor always watching you when you have mediocre lab technique and minimal data.

 

[kyamh]

i honestly feel like my research project is a side project with a straw hypothesis that was designed just purely because i had was awarded this fellowship with no cost to them to do research. [...]

Yeah, it probably is a side project no one really cares about. Why do you expect anything more? By your own admission:

Granted a lot of the things I try fail and my lab techniques aren't great.

I would never give any of my important work to an undergrad who hasn't shown themselves to be 100% consistent with the techniques.

If you are using any sort of ICC, you should know that those antibodies cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars per bottle. Also, are you working with human cells? Those are super expensive and hard to come by. Also, are you working with truly toxic chemicals? They could be worried about your safety. Frankly, if you can't learn to do the techniques without mistakes in 5 weeks (and fail at "a lot" of things), or however long you have been there this summer, they may have little confidence in your attention to detail...the kind of attention to detail that can lead to serious health/well being/science/and cost consequences.

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Welcome to undergrad research. You wasted a semester, and while your PI was understanding towards you, your grad student probably got reamed out. Like the other posters have pointed out, lab supplies aren't cheap. Appreciate that you have a summer fellowship and a mentor who is still trying to help you, rather than have you wash beakers in the corner.

 

[giza]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I know I've been bad mentee in the scope of everything. It's been a frustrating couple of months with failed experiments, etc. We talked about how unhappy I've been with the project today and I let him know that I'm sorry and that I do appreciate his mentorship despite what a terrible time I've had. It seems that I'm past the point I can redeem myself, I don't have the energy, the self-esteem to turn this project around into anything interesting or successful. I don't know what will happen next, but I'm ready to face the consequences and if this door closes I'm prepared to let it close and move forward with the lessons learned and my perspectives changed. Thanks!

 

[Australopithekus]

I don't know your particular situation, but as a research associate and former graduate student, I can say this: In many labs, PIs are MUCH more strict with their graduate students and paid employees than with undergraduates who are paid through fellowships. Your PI might seem very nice to you, but (s)he might be brutal with your mentor in their private meetings, given the failed experiments. It's very possible that your mentor just wants to make sure everything is done correctly because it's his reputation/graduation/etc. on the line.

Talk to your mentor first. If that doesn't work, then go to the PI. If that doesn't help, make the best of the summer and move on.

 

[ridethecliche]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I know I've been bad mentee in the scope of everything. It's been a frustrating couple of months with failed experiments, etc. We talked about how unhappy I've been with the project today and I let him know that I'm sorry and that I do appreciate his mentorship despite what a terrible time I've had. It seems that I'm past the point I can redeem myself, I don't have the energy, the self-esteem to turn this project around into anything interesting or successful. I don't know what will happen next, but I'm ready to face the consequences and if this door closes I'm prepared to let it close and move forward with the lessons learned and my perspectives changed. Thanks!

Don't give up that easily. It sounds like you spoke to your PI or mentor. See if you can take a little break from your project and help someone else instead or refine techniques to get your head back in the game. Tell them you're going to hit things hard when you get back and MEAN IT.

Setbacks are things that were made to be overcome, not to give up by. I assure you that it gets no easier in med school and residency. I have seen surgeons yell at fellows and residents in the OR, make them watch instead of practice, and then made them do the same crap over and over again before allowing them to do it with them. This kind of thing never goes away, it's just the battle of attrition.

 

[diamondgal1337]

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