RateMDs.com, patients rating doctors, is this ethical?

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Brigade4Radiant

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http://www.ratemds.com/

Docs seek gag orders to stop patients' reviews
By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer Lindsey Tanner, Ap Medical Writer Wed Mar 4, 12:14 am ET

CHICAGO – The anonymous comment on the Web site RateMDs.com was unsparing: "Very unhelpful, arrogant," it said of a doctor. "Did not listen and cut me off, seemed much too happy to have power (and abuse it!) over suffering people." Such reviews are becoming more common as consumer ratings services like Zagat's and Angie's List expand beyond restaurants and plumbers to medical care, and some doctors are fighting back.

They're asking patients to agree to what amounts to a gag order that bars them from posting negative comments online.

"Consumers and patients are hungry for good information" about doctors, but Internet reviews provide just the opposite, contends Dr. Jeffrey Segal, a North Carolina neurosurgeon who has made a business of helping doctors monitor and prevent online criticism.

Some sites "are little more than tabloid journalism without much interest in constructively improving practices," and their sniping comments can unfairly ruin a doctor's reputation, Segal said.

Segal said such postings say nothing about what should really matter to patients — a doctor's medical skills — and privacy laws and medical ethics prevent leave doctors powerless to do anything it.

His company, Medical Justice, is based in Greensboro, N.C. For a fee, it provides doctors with a standardized waiver agreement. Patients who sign agree not to post online comments about the doctor, "his expertise and/or treatment."

"Published comments on Web pages, blogs and/or mass correspondence, however well intended, could severely damage physician's practice," according to suggested wording the company provides.

Segal's company advises doctors to have all patients sign the agreements. If a new patient refuses, the doctor might suggest finding another doctor. Segal said he knows of no cases where longtime patients have been turned away for not signing the waivers.

Doctors are notified when a negative rating appears on a Web site, and, if the author's name is known, physicians can use the signed waivers to get the sites to remove offending opinion.

RateMd's postings are anonymous, and the site's operators say they do not know their users' identities. The operators also won't remove negative comments.

Angie's List's operators know the identities of users and warn them when they register that the site will share names with doctors if asked.

Since Segal's company began offering its service two years ago, nearly 2,000 doctors have signed up. In several instances, he said, doctors have used signed waivers to get sites to remove negative comments.

John Swapceinski, co-founder of RateMDs.com, said that in recent months, six doctors have asked him to remove negative online comments based on patients' signed waivers. He has refused.

"They're basically forcing the patients to choose between health care and their First Amendment rights, and I really find that repulsive," Swapceinski said.

He said he's planning to post a "Wall of Shame" listing names of doctors who use patient waivers.

Segal, of Medical Justice, said the waivers are aimed more at giving doctors ammunition against Web sites than against patients. Still, the company's suggested wording warns that breaching the agreement could result in legal action against patients.

Attorney Jim Speta, a Northwestern University Internet law specialist, questioned whether such lawsuits would have much success.

"Courts might say the balance of power between doctors and patients is very uneven" and that patients should be able to give feedback on their doctors' performance, Speta said.

Angie Hicks, founder of Angie's List, said her company surveyed more than 1,000 of its consumer members last month, and most said they had never been presented with a waiver; 3 percent said they would sign one.

About 6,000 doctors reviewed on the Angie's List site also were asked to comment. Only 74 responded, and about a fifth of them said they would consider using them.

Lenore Janecek, who formed a Chicago-based patient-advocacy group after being wrongly diagnosed with cancer, said she opposes the waivers.

"Everyone has the right to speak up," she said.

While she's never posted comments about her doctors, she said the sites are one of the few resources patients have to evaluate physicians.

The American Medical Association has taken no position on patient waivers, but President Dr. Nancy Nielsen has said previously that online doctor ratings sites "have many shortcomings."

Online doctor reviews "should be taken with a grain of salt, and should certainly not be a patient's sole source of information when looking for a new physician," she said.

Dr. Lauren Streicher, a Chicago gynecologist, got a glowing recent review on Angie's List, but also remembers a particularly snarky rating from a patient angry about getting brisk treatment after arriving 30 minutes late to her appointment.

She said she sympathizes with doctors who ask patients to sign a waiver.

Streicher said she has seen shoddy doctors praised online who she would not trust "to deliver my mail much less my baby." Conversely, bad reviews can destroy good doctors' careers, she said.

"Are there bad doctors out there? Absolutely, but this is not a good way to figure it out," Streicher said.

Rating your doctor like you can rate your professor has certain implications it may help the patient make an informed decision. However, it is also prone to misinformation, abuse, and public relations firms making fake accounts to artificially increase ratings. It can also be a significant step towards the commercialization of medicine, whereby patients are now consumers, and doctors chosen the same way you choose any other service. Like mechanics or plumbers who are rated on service. Just like professors complaining about the sense of entitlement in today's students and "student satisfaction" being more important than what they learn, so too can the same be said about "patient satisfaction" as opposed to quality care.

On the other hand, it can encourage doctors to care and work with their patients better and punish those that do not. If your doctor treated you poorly, but it wasn't medical malpractice, there is nothing you can do. And even with medical malpractice, patients are unlikely to have the financial support to even counter the legal clout of doctors and their medical associations. Most have insurance to cover this anyways.

Edit: Most of this post comes from Ion of the SA forums

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The only problem I see with this rating system is that it leaves doctors open to malicious posters. What's to stop random people, or people with an ax to grind, from posting on these sites?

I personally would not use online postings as a gauge on the quality of physician. These postings, if given honestly, can only rate the doctor's people skills, not necessarily their medical competency.
 
most people are smart enough to know that a site like that has no value; those who do by into it are going to pick their doctor by some meaningless reason either way
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The only problem I see with this rating system is that it leaves doctors open to malicious posters. What's to stop random people, or people with an ax to grind, from posting on these sites?

I personally would not use online postings as a gauge on the quality of physician. These postings, if given honestly, can only rate the doctor's people skills, not necessarily their medical competency.

It could work the other way too: I can see private practices registering fake accounts (or whatever) and posting malicious comments about a neighboring practice or group of doctors, while simultaneously aggrandizing themselves.
 
The problem is that it's anonymous. If the posters were forced to reveal themselves before posting, I bet it would be a more honest site with more honest posts.
 
Jackinthebox beat me to it, but I think this is a bit too optimistic.


Haha, I guess I should have written the word 'hope' before that statement, but I need to have faith in my fellow man that when it comes down to deciding something as important as their doctor, they'll use common sense
 
You greatly overestimate the intelligence of the average person.

i also agree too. Almost like if your a person told you, dont go to x restraunt, their service is horrible, and the restraunt was dirty. would you go? some people may, but it think many wouldnt

So if a person read online that Dr x was rude or blah blah blah. I think many may take that into consideration before thinking about his medical skills

sad but seems to be true

will a "Hot or Not" rating be included?
:laugh:
 
Haha, I guess I should have written the word 'hope' before that statement, but I need to have faith in my fellow man that when it comes down to deciding something as important as their doctor, they'll use common sense

Let's put it this way- patients are ignoring the advice of doctors and going by self-diagnosis off of WebMD. In this day and age, it seems like more and more people (maybe not a majority, but a saddening amount) trust the internet more than their doctors 🙁
 
OMG, your average person will use this site like a gospel to picking their physician. Not to mention people that are pissed off are 99% more likely to bash you than an happy patient is to praise you. This site is a terrible idea, a physician will employ his family to write counter posts to offset the bad ones, ugh, how horrible.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Let's put it this way- patients are ignoring the advice of doctors and going by self-diagnosis off of WebMD. In this day and age, it seems like more and more people (maybe not a majority, but a saddening amount) trust the internet more than their doctors 🙁

So very true...
 
Rating MDs is the best and worst idea of all time. It could be so beneficial, yet so tragically harmful if used by someone with ill will. The person should definitely have to provide their identity - to the web host, if not to the public. But even then, it's kind of scary.

They should publish MD ratings based on a pool of questionnaires by that physician's entire (or majority of) panel. Not sure even that is plausible though.
 
I just use my states professional licensing agency to gauge whether or not to go to said physician....

Dr. Manalo - Indianapolis; NO:laugh:
 
most people are smart enough to know that a site like that has no value; those who do by into it are going to pick their doctor by some meaningless reason either way
👍👍
 
OMG, your average person will use this site like a gospel to picking their physician.

Cmon guys, Pyropig is right, and it's scary. None of us want our practice ruined by patients that may have let their anger get in the way of a positive experience.

Not to mention people that are pissed off are 99% more likely to bash you than an happy patient is to praise you.

The same is true when you look up patients opinions of medication. I just started using this new med, and I looked up what people thought of it. 99% of the reviews basically told me that if I started taking the drug, I would die on the spot. So, I called my pharmacy, and they said side effects were noticed in 1-2% of the population.

So, that 1-2% are leaving 99% of the feedback on these sites.

I would probably do the same thing if I were them. Not many people write about how great experiences are...but they sure do remember when things dont go well.

It's almost as bad as an e-bay rating. and if we recall, they took the ability away from the sellers to comment on the buyers...(we can draw the analogy to doctors losing the right to comment on these patient rants.)
 
I don't think the average person is smart enough to give an opinion on their doctor. I looked at the ratings of the doctors in my area and a few are complaining about being misdiagnosed. Well, it's kind of hard to diagnose something correctly 100% of the time. I know very little about medicine, but that's still more than the average person...and I wouldn't feel right questioning why a doctor is ordering test x and not test y.
 
This is such a turning point in the practice of medicine. The consumer deserves accurate information, but we have yet to find a way to provide/verify said accuracy. This is already happening, but it is more interesting to think how this could be leveraged ethically for both doctors and patients.
 
I don't think the average person is smart enough to give an opinion on their doctor..

This is a very widely held opinion among doctors, and I frankly find it revolting.

Patients are perfectly capable of judging whether a doctor is caring, arrogant, attentive, efficient, etc. They know whether they are kept waiting an hour and a half for a 15-minute appointment. They know whether the doctor returns their phone calls, or comes to check on them when they are hospitalized. Most of all, they know whether their doctor actually LISTENS to them, which is incredibly rare nowadays. And they should have a right to tell others about their experiences if they so choose.

Saying that a patient isn't "qualified" to judge a doctor devalues the importance of the patient in medical care. Isn't the whole point of medicine supposed to be about the patient: keeping them well or helping heal them when they're sick? Yes, the doctor is responsible for the scientific part, but the human element is just as important.

There are going to be some cranky, unreasonable patients who post biased reviews. But that's true of restaurants also, and I don't see them handing out gag orders with the menus.

Doctors have got to stop living in such a self-referential universe, where they only talk to and listen to each other and think no one else is quaified to judge them.
 
This site is ranked 41,969th in web traffic on alexa.com

Some other sites for comparison

Studentdoctor.net is 13,999th
aamc.com is 34,120th
usdoj.gov is 8,171st
icanhascheezburger.com is 4,380th


Clearly no one uses that site.
 
This is a very widely held opinion among doctors, and I frankly find it revolting.

Patients are perfectly capable of judging whether a doctor is caring, arrogant, attentive, efficient, etc. They know whether they are kept waiting an hour and a half for a 15-minute appointment. They know whether the doctor returns their phone calls, or comes to check on them when they are hospitalized. Most of all, they know whether their doctor actually LISTENS to them, which is incredibly rare nowadays. And they should have a right to tell others about their experiences if they so choose.

Saying that a patient isn't "qualified" to judge a doctor devalues the importance of the patient in medical care. Isn't the whole point of medicine supposed to be about the patient: keeping them well or helping heal them when they're sick? Yes, the doctor is responsible for the scientific part, but the human element is just as important.

There are going to be some cranky, unreasonable patients who post biased reviews. But that's true of restaurants also, and I don't see them handing out gag orders with the menus.

Doctors have got to stop living in such a self-referential universe, where they only talk to and listen to each other and think no one else is quaified to judge them.

SO true!

I think a rating site is a great idea. Ratings MUST be anonymous, of course, considering the power differential between a physician and patient. Just like with any other rating site, some people will have negative feedback but if you are a good physician, most will have positive for you.

If you want to fight negative reviews, hand each of your patients a RateMD.com card after an appointment and ask them to rate you honestly. Read the feedback and learn from it.

Physicians are in a service industry. Unless you are the best of the best, or the only doc in town, people won't put up with you being an *****hole and they shouldn't.
 
This is a very widely held opinion among doctors, and I frankly find it revolting.

Patients are perfectly capable of judging whether a doctor is caring, arrogant, attentive, efficient, etc. They know whether they are kept waiting an hour and a half for a 15-minute appointment. They know whether the doctor returns their phone calls, or comes to check on them when they are hospitalized. Most of all, they know whether their doctor actually LISTENS to them, which is incredibly rare nowadays. And they should have a right to tell others about their experiences if they so choose.

Saying that a patient isn't "qualified" to judge a doctor devalues the importance of the patient in medical care. Isn't the whole point of medicine supposed to be about the patient: keeping them well or helping heal them when they're sick? Yes, the doctor is responsible for the scientific part, but the human element is just as important.

There are going to be some cranky, unreasonable patients who post biased reviews. But that's true of restaurants also, and I don't see them handing out gag orders with the menus.

Doctors have got to stop living in such a self-referential universe, where they only talk to and listen to each other and think no one else is quaified to judge them.

Yes, patients are able to tell when a doctor is "caring, arrogant, attentive, efficient, etc." And if the website in question was used purely for commenting on physician demeanor, then I would be more inclined to be in favor of it.

The problem is that very often patients go to the doctor with a preconceived notion of what their healthcare should entail, and when the appointment goes differently from what they expected, they feel that they have received suboptimal care. If you're a pediatrician and you don't prescribe antibiotics for a kid with a respiratory virus, there are plenty of parents who will insist that their kid needs Cipro and that you, the doctor, are incompetent for not understanding that. Many people go onto webMD, (incorrectly) diagnose themselves, and go to the doctor expecting them to accomodate what is likely to be a misinformed course of action.

Also, you mentioned patient frustration about waiting times, getting follow-up phone calls... As a patient, I obviously want my medical care to be timely, efficient, and coordinated. However, as a soon-to-be medical student, I'm aware that there are huge demands upon a PCP's time. They often see far too many patients and end up getting behind, or having too many things to do to make phone calls. This frustrates me when I have to wait, but when that happens, I realize that my doctor is not watching YouTube; she's busy with other things. Unfortunately many patients don't seem to realize this.
 
Maybe it would be good if patients were able to evaluate docs based on a set of very specific criteria rather than just writing subjective narratives.
 
i have no problem using anonymous recommendations for restaurants and hotels, but the idea of a completely random person affecting which doctor i choose is down right scary. Can't wait until I get an anonymous review from a parent whose kid has a cold and I refuse to give them a z-pack or the guy who comes in the ER with bit of a back ache and needs an excuse to get off of work.
 
this site is ranked 41,969th in web traffic on alexa.com

some other sites for comparison

studentdoctor.net is 13,999th
aamc.com is 34,120th
usdoj.gov is 8,171st
icanhascheezburger.com is 4,380th


clearly no one uses that site.
end discussion
 
This reminds me of an episode of Scrubs. Season 7, Episode 6 "My Number One Doctor." The site in that episode does actually exist: http://rateyourdoc.org/.
 
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What is unethical about it?

Patients have every right to give their opinion about a doctor they've seen.
 
^^ i agree. too easy to make a fake review and screw a doctor over. cant do anything about it, though.
 
^^ i agree. too easy to make a fake review and screw a doctor over. cant do anything about it, though.

I wouldn't worry that much about fake reviews, more so disgruntled patients that would make a bad review about something the doctor had no control over.
 
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but I don't give two ****s about my doctor's bedside manner, politeness and all that other BS. I only care if he can help me fix my health related problems. It's like going to a mechanic and turning him down because he didn't smile and shake your hand firmly enough, despite his spotless under-the-hood track record.

My best physician experience was when I went in for a "toothache" that turned out to be a sinus infection. The doctor didn't shake my hand, ask how I was doing, he simply just asked "what's wrong" and I told him. He looked in my nose for all of half a second, said "yep, sinus infection" wrote a few perscriptions, said "good luck" and walked out. He is the physician I aspire to be. No bull****, high signal to noise ratio.
 
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but I don't give two ****s about my doctor's bedside manner, politeness and all that other BS. I only care if he can help me fix my health related problems. It's like going to a mechanic and turning him down because he didn't smile and shake your hand firmly enough, despite his spotless under-the-hood track record.

My best physician experience was when I went in for a "toothache" that turned out to be a sinus infection. The doctor didn't shake my hand, ask how I was doing, he simply just asked "what's wrong" and I told him. He looked in my nose for all of half a second, said "yep, sinus infection" wrote a few perscriptions, said "good luck" and walked out. He is the physician I aspire to be. No bull****, high signal to noise ratio.

Western medicine at its best. Nothing holistic or preventative and all intervention and treatment/prescription based.
 
I wouldn't worry that much about fake reviews, more so disgruntled patients that would make a bad review about something the doctor had no control over.

Anyone that is going to rely on some anonymous online website to determine which doctor to go to is an idiot anyhow. Those are the folks that would use the National Enquirer to decide who to vote for president. Who cares?

The vast majority of patients just go to whoever happens to be nearby and/or listed as acceptable by their HMO. Primary care docs don't really have to compete all too much for patients. If you've been paying attention to the news lately, you'd see that we kind of have the opposite problem.

As for specialists... well, the bulk of their patients come referred from PCP's anyhow.
 
This is a very widely held opinion among doctors, and I frankly find it revolting.

Patients are perfectly capable of judging whether a doctor is caring, arrogant, attentive, efficient, etc. They know whether they are kept waiting an hour and a half for a 15-minute appointment. They know whether the doctor returns their phone calls, or comes to check on them when they are hospitalized. Most of all, they know whether their doctor actually LISTENS to them, which is incredibly rare nowadays. And they should have a right to tell others about their experiences if they so choose.

Saying that a patient isn't "qualified" to judge a doctor devalues the importance of the patient in medical care. Isn't the whole point of medicine supposed to be about the patient: keeping them well or helping heal them when they're sick? Yes, the doctor is responsible for the scientific part, but the human element is just as important.

There are going to be some cranky, unreasonable patients who post biased reviews. But that's true of restaurants also, and I don't see them handing out gag orders with the menus.

Doctors have got to stop living in such a self-referential universe, where they only talk to and listen to each other and think no one else is quaified to judge them.

Yep I'd concur. Fortunately (or unfortuantely) I've done deep research into this area; there is a demand for it, it is coming.

Much of the quality and value of this type of service comes down to the web site itself -- if you have to rate your doctor, good or bad, that's one thing. If you separately rate the physician's ability to communicate effectively with the patient, willingness to listen to the patient's concerns, cleanliness/hospitality of office environment, professional nature of support staff, length of wait time, followup after the visit regarding any outstanding questions.. this becomes more valuable to other viewers.

I used to put more weight to the argument that a great diagnostician could have a crappy bedside manner and still be a great doctor. A book written by a long-time doctor refuted that idea; stating that part of being a great doctor is diagnostic skills, and part is communication. Without strength in both areas, one cannot be a great doctor.

Think about it for your older (or sicker) folk who've seen a specialist.. how do you find them? Most typical way is to receive a referral from a PCP or friend/neighbor/relative. Is that far better than viewing the rating and feedback from dozens of others who've visited the physician?

As the former owner of a service business; I'd comment to some of the points above with the time issue -- if I do a google search on my name, I still see it associated with a dozen + web sites that "rate your experience with this business". No one's ever commented that I've noticed; if they did, I'd hope that the comments were positive; if they were negative, this means I should have looked into changing something about how my office is run. As a former business owner, I would never consider paying my staff to post bad things about my competitors, both for ethical reasons and because I'd rather they focus any spare time on improving my customers' experience. Would medical offices really be much less professional than this?
 
Just checked most of the physicians I've dealt with in the past. The ratings seem to be fair and genuine. And when there are some negative out-of-left-field ratings, the other posters disagree! They say things like: "I don't know why these posters are so unhappy, Dr X is the best dr since sliced bread." So it would be incredibly easy to spot false negative reviews.
 
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