re-applicant, need some advice

[s10m30]

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Hi everyone. I have been a "lurker" on this site (ie reading all the posts) for years now, but now I have finally taken the plunge and joined.

Hard to summarize my entire life into this little page (in a manner that other people will find worthwhile to read), and perhaps I will make one of those mdapplicants profiles. but for now, just a brief summary, so I can get part of the advice I am looking for.

I graduated from college in 2006. I then took some serious time off (duh...its 2009), as I truly was not 100% sure that medicine was something I wanted to commit myself to. I was a good student (GPA of 3.6) but perhaps not the most stellar, I excelled in all my pre-med courses, and am/was passionate about medicine, but I guess I just wanted to make sure - I felt there is/was no need to rush off to med school right away.

I taught science for 1 year, and while it was an *interesting* and eye opening experience and I am glad I did it, it was definitely not for me. Toward the end of the year, I studied for my MCAT, and took it shortly thereafter. I got a 30. Considered retaking, but after lots of thought and consideration (plus weighing in the fact that I was at the end of a difficult pregnancy), I decided that the chances of me improving SUBSTANTIALLY (ie 34 or above) were low (given the statistics), and the difference between a 30 and 31 is nil. So I moved on with the application.

In the meantime, that summer, I thought to myself, I really do love medicine, I want to find something to do where I can apply myself in this field for the time being! Applied for, and found, a position as a CRTA Fellow at NCI/NIH (prestigious fellowship, many apply, few are accepted, or so I was told). Did that for a year, and again, while I am glad I spent a full year doing f/t research, I learned that research, unequivocally, is NOT for me. The experience was wonderful, but also helped me realize that medicine is absolutely where I want to be - a career in the hard sciences would make me miserable in about 3 seconds.

I finished my fellowship at the NIH 2 months ago (was there just short of a year, we were forced to relocate for DH's job, I had my PI's absolute blessing and I have a great LOR from them) and have since moved and quickly found a job as a "research fellow" in a lab here, doing work that is very closely tied to what I was doing at the NIH. I thought (even though I didnt say this when I took the job) it would just be a summer job- I was hoping I would get off a waitlist, but the school I was waitlisted at, began yesterday, so to hell with that. I really hate where I am working now, you know when people talk about an awful "working environment?" well, I have got one. I hate the people I work with, I hate how things function in this lab, it is overall just incredibly frustrating. I have re-submitted my AMCAS for 2010, which just depresses me beyond belief. However, I just cannot see myself doing research in this lab (mostly because of the people, but also because of the nature of the work - the NCI was really cool and it was a great experience - but I dont love benchwork at all) for an entire year while I apply.

I have applied more broadly this year (DH has agreed that should we need to move, he will take some time off to get his MBA so we can be more flexible for my sake), and to more than 8 schools (which was a huge error). I am applying to MD schools only, and I do have numerous reasons for having made this decision. while moving around the country is an option, because of real family constraints (remember, I have a kid), leaving the country is absolutely not an option.

I also have a year of research experience under my belt, 3 publications (and a 4th has been submitted for publication - on which, for the first time, I will be listed as "first author" not a co-author), but I feel like I need to change venues and get out of this research environment before I just fall apart/pop/burst/whatever. I have no passion for what I do, and I feel like I am just angry about being here since I really dislike the people here and the fact that it is a wreck and it is just an unhappy place.

So, my question is, what can I do to supplement my application this year, but at the same time, that I WILL ENJOY. I feel like I have this urge inside me to do something to really really apply myself and help others - and I am not satiating that urge through research, which is just frustrating.

to summarize once more:
-graduated in 06. biology major. GPA 3.6. Science GPA 3.4
-mcat in 07: 30
-taught for 1 yr
-NCI/NIH CRTA Fellowship
-lots of extracurricular stuff during college (premed club president, on school paper, organized sciency events and speeches, etc)
- research as an undergrad for all 4 summers (2 publications from my work)
-tons of volunteer experience (hospice volunteer ~1x/wk for about 8 years now, some nursing home volunteering too, "big brother/big sister" type program for teenagers from broken homes, adoption agency, - and those are only the ones that are "long term," not the "I volunteered at a homeless shelter one summer for 2 months." all of these are 2 years or more)
-tons of shadowing experience so yes, I know this is what I want, and I have learned a ton about the health care industry through shadowing.

I am looking to find something to do that will truly make me feel like I am HELPING PEOPLE this coming year.
$ is not an issue, so honestly, it does not need to be a paid position, I am fine with full time as a volunteer if it will not be like a "well call you when we need you" type thing, but something that I am required to "commit myself to" for a real 40 hours/wk. (as you see above - I do alot of volunteering, but all the things I am involved with - sure, I can do a few more hours here or there, but they are not "full time" type options)

It is too late to do a SMP and I have spoken to two directors of admissions at two medical schools, who both told me that would be a waste of time for me anyway, and a 3.6 is "fine."

I was thinking of an EMT-B program? and then I can volunteer as an EMT (but when I say volunteer I mean "full time shifts" of volunteering!)
or perhaps getting involved in some sort of clinical research, but again - I think i would be frustrated in that I would not be helping people in a "hands on" kind of way.
getting a NHA (nursing home administrator) license and doing that for the year (but then OTOH what nursing home would even look my way if I am hoping to leave in a few months)

any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
feel free to criticize my info all you want. I want constructive criticism.

 

[s10m30]

um, hi I realized that perhaps my post belongs HERE:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=418?
if a mod could move it I would be really thankful
sorry, I am new.

 

[s10m30]

bump???
no one???

 

[Compass]

Hi everyone. I have been a "lurker" on this site (ie reading all the posts) for years now, but now I have finally taken the plunge and joined.

Hard to summarize my entire life into this little page (in a manner that other people will find worthwhile to read), and perhaps I will make one of those mdapplicants profiles. but for now, just a brief summary, so I can get part of the advice I am looking for.

I graduated from college in 2006. I then took some serious time off (duh...its 2009), as I truly was not 100% sure that medicine was something I wanted to commit myself to. I was a good student (GPA of 3.6) but perhaps not the most stellar, I excelled in all my pre-med courses, and am/was passionate about medicine, but I guess I just wanted to make sure - I felt there is/was no need to rush off to med school right away.

That's fine. I don't know if we could classify you as non-trad, but why do you consider yourself a reapplicant at this point? Did you apply before? What year?

I taught science for 1 year, and while it was an *interesting* and eye opening experience and I am glad I did it, it was definitely not for me. Toward the end of the year, I studied for my MCAT, and took it shortly thereafter. I got a 30. Considered retaking, but after lots of thought and consideration (plus weighing in the fact that I was at the end of a difficult pregnancy), I decided that the chances of me improving SUBSTANTIALLY (ie 34 or above) were low (given the statistics), and the difference between a 30 and 31 is nil. So I moved on with the application.

Never mind. 30 -> 34 is hard, but it is doable. I received 2 30s before I got a 34.

In the meantime, that summer, I thought to myself, I really do love medicine, I want to find something to do where I can apply myself in this field for the time being! Applied for, and found, a position as a CRTA Fellow at NCI/NIH (prestigious fellowship, many apply, few are accepted, or so I was told). Did that for a year, and again, while I am glad I spent a full year doing f/t research, I learned that research, unequivocally, is NOT for me. The experience was wonderful, but also helped me realize that medicine is absolutely where I want to be - a career in the hard sciences would make me miserable in about 3 seconds.

Good, good. You got some research in.

I finished my fellowship at the NIH 2 months ago (was there just short of a year, we were forced to relocate for DH's job, I had my PI's absolute blessing and I have a great LOR from them) and have since moved and quickly found a job as a "research fellow" in a lab here, doing work that is very closely tied to what I was doing at the NIH. I thought (even though I didnt say this when I took the job) it would just be a summer job- I was hoping I would get off a waitlist, but the school I was waitlisted at, began yesterday, so to hell with that. I really hate where I am working now, you know when people talk about an awful "working environment?" well, I have got one. I hate the people I work with, I hate how things function in this lab, it is overall just incredibly frustrating. I have re-submitted my AMCAS for 2010, which just depresses me beyond belief. However, I just cannot see myself doing research in this lab (mostly because of the people, but also because of the nature of the work - the NCI was really cool and it was a great experience - but I dont love benchwork at all) for an entire year while I apply.

I'm in the same boat as you. Your lab experience should help you this time around.

I have applied more broadly this year (DH has agreed that should we need to move, he will take some time off to get his MBA so we can be more flexible for my sake), and to more than 8 schools (which was a huge error). I am applying to MD schools only, and I do have numerous reasons for having made this decision. while moving around the country is an option, because of real family constraints (remember, I have a kid), leaving the country is absolutely not an option.

Assuming you're in Maryland, I wouldn't consider WV's DO school very far <.<

I also have a year of research experience under my belt, 3 publications (and a 4th has been submitted for publication - on which, for the first time, I will be listed as "first author" not a co-author), but I feel like I need to change venues and get out of this research environment before I just fall apart/pop/burst/whatever. I have no passion for what I do, and I feel like I am just angry about being here since I really dislike the people here and the fact that it is a wreck and it is just an unhappy place.

Golden. 3 research papers = 3 more than many people o.o

So, my question is, what can I do to supplement my application this year, but at the same time, that I WILL ENJOY. I feel like I have this urge inside me to do something to really really apply myself and help others - and I am not satiating that urge through research, which is just frustrating.

Become a firefighter/EMT. EMT-B class should be at most 1 semester. Volunteer at a fire department.

to summarize once more:
-graduated in 06. biology major. GPA 3.6. Science GPA 3.4
-mcat in 07: 30
-taught for 1 yr
-NCI/NIH CRTA Fellowship
-lots of extracurricular stuff during college (premed club president, on school paper, organized sciency events and speeches, etc)
- research as an undergrad for all 4 summers (2 publications from my work)
-tons of volunteer experience (hospice volunteer ~1x/wk for about 8 years now, some nursing home volunteering too, "big brother/big sister" type program for teenagers from broken homes, adoption agency, - and those are only the ones that are "long term," not the "I volunteered at a homeless shelter one summer for 2 months." all of these are 2 years or more)
-tons of shadowing experience so yes, I know this is what I want, and I have learned a ton about the health care industry through shadowing.

Good overall. Broad, does everything.

I am looking to find something to do that will truly make me feel like I am HELPING PEOPLE this coming year.
$ is not an issue, so honestly, it does not need to be a paid position, I am fine with full time as a volunteer if it will not be like a "well call you when we need you" type thing, but something that I am required to "commit myself to" for a real 40 hours/wk. (as you see above - I do alot of volunteering, but all the things I am involved with - sure, I can do a few more hours here or there, but they are not "full time" type options)

As I stated, Volunteer at FD.

It is too late to do a SMP and I have spoken to two directors of admissions at two medical schools, who both told me that would be a waste of time for me anyway, and a 3.6 is "fine."

Sure, I could spend my 12 hours a weekend fooling around, but I enjoy doing it.

I was thinking of an EMT-B program? and then I can volunteer as an EMT (but when I say volunteer I mean "full time shifts" of volunteering!)
or perhaps getting involved in some sort of clinical research, but again - I think i would be frustrated in that I would not be helping people in a "hands on" kind of way.

EMT is as hands-on as scratching your back is. Unless you have a back scratcher.

getting a NHA (nursing home administrator) license and doing that for the year (but then OTOH what nursing home would even look my way if I am hoping to leave in a few months)

Having visited nursing homes, I would not recommend this. If you're in Maryland, oh my God, these places are nightmares.

any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
feel free to criticize my info all you want. I want constructive criticism.

👍👍 Good stuff. You have a chance. I'd suggest about 20-30 schools though. 8 is not enough.

 

[s10m30]

thanks compass for posting a reply.

to answer your questions, in order:

(I dont know how to "quote")

1. I would consider myself a non trad and absolutely a reapplicant. non trad since I already have a family and have worked a few years, and reapplicant because well, yes, this is round 2.

2. re: 30-34. I am sure it is doable. but I am not a good test taker (had to take anti anxiety meds first time around after much risk benefit analysis with the help of my OB [I was pregnant at the time and most anti anxiety drugs are category C or worse])

3. I am not in MD anymore. we have since moved to NY for DH's job. at any rate, for many reasons (thought I mentioned, but heck my post was so long I dont even remember), I am doing the MD only route.

4. 3 research papers in nice journals (not the euroopean journal of opthamologic pathology or something similarly obscure), --- PLUS first author paper hopefully within the next month or so (waiting to hear back)

5. what should i volunteer to do at a FD exactly if I dont have any skills? answer their phones?

6. EMT is not hands on? even if you are working with an ambulance crew? I dont care if it is basic basic assessments that I get to do as an EMT - B, just BPs and helping ensure they are stable, but at least I will feel like I am doing something more meaningful than PCR.

7. LOL re what you said about nursing homes. Some are gross and grimy, but that is probably the saddest part of the entire thing - that these people are probably going to live out the rest of their lives in that environment. and if i can bring them just a tad of hope/happiness/cheer, then it is worth it.

8. I have sent my primary to 22 schools (including my 8. so maybe that is more like 14 since those 8 obviously arent interested? IDK). because I am married and have a kid, I do have a lot of constraints and limitations as to where is realistic for ALL THREE OF US.

let me know what you think.
I am really sad about what you said RE: EMT-B because I was all excited about my idea.

 

[Compass]

thanks compass for posting a reply.

to answer your questions, in order:

(I dont know how to "quote")

1. I would consider myself a non trad and absolutely a reapplicant. non trad since I already have a family and have worked a few years, and reapplicant because well, yes, this is round 2.

You can use this to your advantage. You should talk about your work in other fields, as well as what you've seen that normal trads haven't.

2. re: 30-34. I am sure it is doable. but I am not a good test taker (had to take anti anxiety meds first time around after much risk benefit analysis with the help of my OB [I was pregnant at the time and most anti anxiety drugs are category C or worse])

Neither was I. It's always an option, though. A good 2 months of studying can equate to a 34.

3. I am not in MD anymore. we have since moved to NY for DH's job. at any rate, for many reasons (thought I mentioned, but heck my post was so long I dont even remember), I am doing the MD only route.

Okie.

4. 3 research papers in nice journals (not the euroopean journal of opthamologic pathology or something similarly obscure), --- PLUS first author paper hopefully within the next month or so (waiting to hear back)

Shoo-in <.<

5. what should i volunteer to do at a FD exactly if I dont have any skills? answer their phones?

Most fire departments will have probational class where you learn to be a member. A lot of new members at my place simply ride on the ambulance and observe how EMTs run calls. Ask for a ride-along with your local FD and spend a day there. IF you like it, sign up.

6. EMT is not hands on? even if you are working with an ambulance crew? I dont care if it is basic basic assessments that I get to do as an EMT - B, just BPs and helping ensure they are stable, but at least I will feel like I am doing something more meaningful than PCR.

Back-scratching is hands-on. It was a joke. EMT does lots of skills. Sometimes it'll be minor as transporting patients to the ER with no care rendered. Sometimes you'll be splinting. Sometimes you'll be calling for a medic. Besides your basic vitals-taking, plenty of opportunities. I do believe NY has a fantastic EMS program as well.

7. LOL re what you said about nursing homes. Some are gross and grimy, but that is probably the saddest part of the entire thing - that these people are probably going to live out the rest of their lives in that environment. and if i can bring them just a tad of hope/happiness/cheer, then it is worth it.

We recently had one nursing home that refused to call for emergency transport for about 6 hours. They called the family after 3 hours, and then ignored their pleas to call for ET for another 3... Some of these places are TERRIBLE.

8. I have sent my primary to 22 schools (including my 8. so maybe that is more like 14 since those 8 obviously arent interested? IDK). because I am married and have a kid, I do have a lot of constraints and limitations as to where is realistic for ALL THREE OF US.

I wouldn't know. I don't have a wifey.

let me know what you think.
I am really sad about what you said RE: EMT-B because I was all excited about my idea.

EMT is fun

 

[s10m30]

Thanks for your response once again compass.

I am glad I misread your EMT posts I was like WHAAT? I know its going to be basic stuff like taking vitals. but most of what I am doing here, even if it is "complex," is pretty simple if you follow the directions, and does not take much thinking, and most of all, does not make me feel like "wow, I did something that really helped someone else today." and isnt that what life SHOULD be about?

where can I find an EMT course that will run daily rather than weekly? If I am going to do it, I wan to do it "NOW" (ie - a month from now, after training and certification), not starting in december after taking a 4 hour class every other week (which seems like what alot of the ones I googled have to offer)
should I call the NYFD? do you think they might know?

I hear what you are saying about the MCAT. But when I took it the first time, I took off a considerable "chunk" of time (1 month) in addition to my nightly studying + princeton + princeton tutor, to really devote myself to full time studying all day (with breaks, no i was not burnt out, etc). I gave it 100%, and honestly, it has now been close to 2 more years since I have seen the info (and 2 years farther removed from having taken orgo, physics, bio, and chem), and I think I would be starting off therefore with a "disadvantage" compared to where I was starting off from last time around, and it would take me way more than 2 months. which would entail essentially taking an entire additional year off. which is really difficult with a family, and again, I am not 20 and in college, I am going on 25 and while we are not desperate for money (like I said - I am totally willing to spend this entire year volunteering full time), postponing medical school for another year would be very difficult for us.

(and i agree, some nursing homes really suck and the care they provide is beyond suboptimal. but that makes me want to volunteer in those places even more! can you imagine the "daily grind" for some of these people? you can really really make a difference here. at least IMVHO. but yea. some are gross.)

 

[Compass]

Thanks for your response once again compass.

I am glad I misread your EMT posts I was like WHAAT? I know its going to be basic stuff like taking vitals. but most of what I am doing here, even if it is "complex," is pretty simple if you follow the directions, and does not take much thinking, and most of all, does not make me feel like "wow, I did something that really helped someone else today." and isnt that what life SHOULD be about?

SAMPLE
OPQRSTU
DCAPBTLS
AVPU

That's all you need to know for now =3

where can I find an EMT course that will run daily rather than weekly? If I am going to do it, I wan to do it "NOW" (ie - a month from now, after training and certification), not starting in december after taking a 4 hour class every other week (which seems like what alot of the ones I googled have to offer)
should I call the NYFD? do you think they might know?

Try a college. There may or may not be accelerated courses that finish in half a semester. FDNY will probably only have information about career classes, and those are only offered to career firefighters and not volunteers unless you get in through a fire department.

I hear what you are saying about the MCAT. But when I took it the first time, I took off a considerable "chunk" of time (1 month) in addition to my nightly studying + princeton + princeton tutor, to really devote myself to full time studying all day (with breaks, no i was not burnt out, etc). I gave it 100%, and honestly, it has now been close to 2 more years since I have seen the info (and 2 years farther removed from having taken orgo, physics, bio, and chem), and I think I would be starting off therefore with a "disadvantage" compared to where I was starting off from last time around, and it would take me way more than 2 months. which would entail essentially taking an entire additional year off. which is really difficult with a family, and again, I am not 20 and in college, I am going on 25 and while we are not desperate for money (like I said - I am totally willing to spend this entire year volunteering full time), postponing medical school for another year would be very difficult for us.

🙁 I gave up on the MCAT last year after a back-to-back 30 and sucked it up again this year. You should probably head over to the MCAT forum to discuss that, though.

(and i agree, some nursing homes really suck and the care they provide is beyond suboptimal. but that makes me want to volunteer in those places even more! can you imagine the "daily grind" for some of these people? you can really really make a difference here. at least IMVHO. but yea. some are gross.)

I'm not stopping you, but I have big reservations about these places X_X

 

[s10m30]

bump?
anyone else have any advice for me?
what about like LizzyM? or anyone else "on the other side" who isnt premed like me????

 

[s10m30]

anyone???

 

[Bacchus]

I'm going to move your post for you. 🙂 You'll get lots of help in the reapplicants forum.

 

[s10m30]

hmmmm bacchus...so much for the tons of advise in re-applicants 🙁
do you have any advice for me?
anyone?
i am really frustrated with all of this.

 

[gman33]

Stop bumping this thread and asking for input when it's only open for a few hours.

Here's my advice. Your stats aren't bad, but they are slightly below average. Apply to as many schools as you possibly can. I'd also think about DO schools. If you had done that the first time, you wouldn't be in this position, you don't want to be in it again next year.

Too many people end up in your position. You have a very average application, only applied to a few schools, and did nothing substantial to improve your application. Applying to more schools is a good start, but you didn't take any more classes or retake the MCAT. I would put a plan in place to improve your academic credentials and start working on it now. Take some upper level science courses and see how tihs cycle works out. If you don't have much luck by Jan, I'd seriously consider retaking the MCAT. You need plenty of time to study because you only want to take it again if you can make a big jump. If you need to apply again (after this cycle), I think you score would be expired at most schools anyway.

My main advice at this point would be to look closely at DO schools. I'm not saying you can't get in this cycle; I'd just say your odds are like 50/50.

 

[LizzyM]

You are below average for the top tier schools but you have a shot at schools with Lizzy scores of 64-66. The teaching year + NIH year + year doing whatever you are going to do make it seem that you are trying all sorts of things but not interested in any of them. Some may wonder if you will feel the same about medicine once you get into it. You'll need to do some soul searching about that.

EMT-B will not distinguish you from thousands of other applicants but if you think that putting a bandaid on it and driving fast (how an applicant described his gap year job as an EMT-B) is better than your current situation, then you've got nothing to lose.

From what I've learned here, you may be above average for DO schools and those might be your best shot. You'll need to have shadowed a DO and obtained a LOR but you should consider it. Beautiful essay by a DO in this week's issue of JAMA. IIRC it was titled "On the Wounded Warrior".

 

[s10m30]

thank you gman for your reply.
in terms of my "stats" you are referring strictly to GPA and MCAt, correct?
I have applied to 3x as many schools as last year. I wish I could add more (if it were entirely up to me, heck, I would apply to all 126 or so in the US, and fill out all those secondaries to bat!), but they have to be places that are reasonable for my family, not just me. there is more at play than just "is it a town with nice beaches" or whatever.

I hear what you said about DO schools, and I have gotten mixed messages from different people about this. My parents (who will be footing the bill) are adamantly opposed. Most older physicians who I have spoken to (and by older, I dont mean 70, I mean 30 and above, so have finished residencies and fellowships and have faculty positions) have told me as well, that I should not go this route if I dont want to severely limit myself later on in my career. OTOH, I have some friends in DO school, and friends in MD school, who have all told me "whats the big deal, just do it." But when I have what my parents say (and that weighs alot, being that they are paying) and what professionals say, vs what novices who are in med school or just started their internships 2 months ago are saying, I am going to go with the former, even if the process takes longer for me because of my decision. THat is part of my reasoning.

now, I understand what you mean when you say my "stats" are below average, but what do you mean when you say "you have a very average appilcation?"???

what exactly DO I have to do to shine? to do something above average? maybe (I hope) I have made myself more clear on my AMCAS app this year than I have in the past (and than I have in this thread), but I do think that as a person, I have done more than "average."

I have done more than your "average" "typical" volunteer work, for more than the "required" 4 hrs/wk or whatever it might be.
and I have followed up on my volunteer commitments for long periods of time, they arent "semester gigs" just to get a LOR.
I truly am committed to every single one, otherwise I dont write it down, because it is just BS and I think AdComs will see that (maybe I am wrong? and I am not bluffing enough to boost my case?).
the NCI Research Fellowship I did, is hard to get. My PI told me that he had over 100 applications for my spot. I did think that was "prestigious."
I was heavily involved as an undergrad, and not just with your typical "I am a premed club member and I am actively involved because I go to all the activities." I taught at a school in a heavily underserved neighborhood for a year. not because I needed to, and trust me, the money made it far from worth it. because I WANTED to. do I need to like go to africa or something and help people with AIDS all day for 2 year in order to "shine?" seriously. I dont get what I have to do to be "unique." I wish someone could tell me. that is why I was thinking of this EMT thing. you have to understand, I have a family. so moving to africa aint happening. teach for america would be exceedingly difficult. peace core (not that I would ever want to join) is impossible. so WHAT do I have to do to be more than average? really? I appreciate the constructive criticism, but can you please tell me what about what I have done is really average?

I DID retake the MCAT. My score got redistributed from a 12/10/8 to a 11/10/9. hardly an improvement, IMO. and that was after another two months of studying. I did not think, and still dont think, retaking it would help my cause, and might hurt my cause if i fail to improve a third time. Two deans (well, one assistant dean) of two med schools told me this - they said that my MCAT score is definitely not what is holding me back.

with regard to my GPA - there I am torn. one dean told me to do a SMP, the other one told me it would be a "wate of time" for someone like me - they are geared towards people with GPAs of like 3.0 etc - to make vast improvements. so I really dont know. at any rate, it is too late for this year, and I have already submitted my primary. If there is a program-any program, in the NY area, that I could still attend for 2009 and anyone thinks that might help, please tell me, and I will do it right now.

When you say take some upper level science courses, do you mean with a SMP or just go to some local college and register for biochem etc?

 

[s10m30]

thank you LizzyM for your two cents I really really appreciate it.
I am not sure what your lizzy scores are. do you have a link or anything that will show me which schools are within that range? while I am trying to be more realistic in terms of choosing which schools to apply to this year (ie - not wasting my $ on columbia), I am also geographically constrained, so am only applying to schools in the cities we will be able to move to (ie DH's job constraints etc), and pretty much picked schools by location and average GPA. I would love to see the list and ensure that a majority of my selections (I still dont think it is bad to have some 'reach' schools) fall within that range. or, can I post the list of schools I am applying to?

thank you for your advice about the EMT thing. I think that putting bandaids on people and answering calls would be more meaningful than playing with test tubes all day, but perhaps I am wrong. if my goal here is to distinguish myself, I guess a fancy title and more publications will get me to that goal faster than being an EMT.
The teaching was actually done while I was still in college as crazy as that might seem. I was not a teaching assistant, I was an actual teacher. I was in my last semester and was taking 2 courses, and was eager to do something more with my time, and if I was going to do something with my time, I wanted to do something that could help others. being that I had no clinical training/skills, teaching seemed like a great way to do that in the short term, to add to my volunteering.

NCI fellowship was a wonderful opportunity; on top of that, I was considering in the back of my head doing the MD/PhD route at the time. my year there pretty much helped me rule that out entirely (which was a good thing, not a bad thing). but it also cemented my passion for the field of medicine I hope to specialize in one day (although I am keeping an open mind). The lab I worked in studied similar diseases to those I studied as an undergrad in the summers, and so being there helped me really solidify my passion for a given field in more ways than one, and I feel that I have alot to give. That being said, the lab I am working in now (the one I mentioned above that I dont like and am bored at compared to NCI) is studying similar mechanisms of related diseases, so it is not like I am jumping all over from here to there - this is what I want to do with my life (I HAVE done the soul searching) and being that I cant really do anything clinical with my passion right now, I might as well apply my passion for it in some other way (that is at least how I see it). Will I feel the same about medicine as a practicing physician? who knows? I dont think anyone can really answer that. I have shadowed numerous physicians, and not just for 2 hrs on rounds 3 x over 5 years. I think between the shadowing, and my clinical and lab research experience, I have tried to immerse myself in everything related to medicine as closely as I can without a medical degree. I dont know, maybe I am wrong, I sure hope I am not. As a mom (ie - not a 20 year old making the decision to apply striaght out of college), I have certainly done even more soul searching in these few years I have been out of college. if this was not 10000% what I wanted to do - i fI was not eager and willing to make all the sacrifices I know I will have to make, I wouldnt be going through with all this torture.

I read the essay you mentioned and it is indeed beautiful. but that doesnt mean that my career goals match his, and again, if my parents are paying for this, I have to work within their rules, one of which is MD school or bust. Which I am ok with.

 

[s10m30]

for LizzyM and anyone else who can help, I have applied to 28 schools so far. the only one in these cities that I was thinking of adding was Howard Univ, but I am not a um minority so probably pointless. I sorted them by city rather than A-Z because the fact of the matter is that is how we are needing to pick locations - based on what will work for my entire fam.

Boston
Boston Univ

PA
Drexel
Jefferson
Penn State
Penn
Univ of Pittsburgh

Fla
FIU COM
U Miami
UCF COM
Univ of S Florida

DC
GWU

CA
USC
Loma Linda

Chicago
Loyola
Northwestern
Rosalind Franklin
Rush Medical College
Univ of Chicago
U of Illinois Chicago

NY
NYMC
MSSM
NYU
Downstate
Temple

NJ
UMDNJ-RWJ
UMDNJ-NJMS

CO
UCHSC

Ohio
NE Ohio Univ COM

 

[NTF]

Ohio
NE Ohio Univ COM

FYI NEOUCOM is a 6-7 year med program. They allow "direct entry" MD applicants (people w/ Bachelor's or above) for M1, but they only have ~20 spots per year. It all depends on how many of the 6-7yr students either crap out or take an extra year. That opens up spots for direct entry applicants. Some years it's as low as 10 and as high as 35. The avg stats for matriculants are misleading because most of them are from the 6-7year students.

So for you, you'd be competing with other direct entry applicants with better stats than the average for NEOUCOM and fighting over 20 spots. Plus, they have an instate preference.

I'd actually consider adding Cincinnati and Toledo to your list. Both are public schools that accept a significant portion of OOS applicants. Plus, in OH you get residency after 1 year so you're only paying OOS tuition for one year.

As far as your stats, I actually think your application isn't bad. The MCAT is a little low (that 8 last time may have been the issue) and maybe your biggest problem. If you're looking for something to do in the gap year, I'd suggest patient care tech work on a high acuity hospital unit. I did that for 2 years and I loved it. But to be honest, barring some glaring weakness (poor essays, bad interview skills, lukewarm LORs, late application completion) I'd be surprised if you didn't get in somewhere.

Also, it's too bad that you've gotten so much bad advice on DOs. In the US there really isn't much difference. Having a DO won't significantly affect your career versus having an MD. And the petty prejudices are evaporating and most residency directors will tell you that it doesn't really matter to them whether you have an MD or a DO. They evaluate DOs the same as MDs - board scores, ECs, essays, interview, grades, LORs.

Also, you really don't need your parents financial support to get through medical school (even with kids if you live frugally). You'll be a lot happier if you fly the nest and assert your independence (whatever you decide).

 

[s10m30]

thanks for the heads up about neoucom. was not aware of the "misleading" nature of their numbers.
I will need to talk to my husband about cincinnati and toledo. they both seem pretty far from cleveland, which might be problematic jobwise for him etc - it has to be joint. i cant live one place and he somewhere else, with a kid (or without a kid but anyway).
any other suggestions about schools i might add?
as you (and anyone else who reads this thread ) can see, big city=mega important for me(/him and his career prospects - leaving NY is hard enough, but he will basically be committing professional suicide if he is in some small town for 4 years)

don't care so much about IS vs OOS tuition, or public vs private.

I hope the 8 last time was my problem. (it was in physical sciences), but who knows. I get mixed messages from across the spectrum- just like on here. one person tells me I am far below average and the next tells me i am right where I should be and the next tells me I have done lots of really amazing things and I should be great. so its really really a crapshoot and very frustrating.
what is a patient care tech? does that mean like being a CNA? would an EMT qualify? I just think that even if lots of the stuff EMTs do is really basic, you are BUSY and it is always INTERESTING. as opposed to CNAs (who yes I have worked very closely with throughout all my volunteering at nursing homes for the past ~10 years or so) who IMO have slower days with less thinking involved. and I think I would quickly be frustrated by the "mediocrity" of my work - it would be too dull and not challenging enough. that is why as much as I really am not enjoying being in a lab because it feels so meaningless (not helping people) and because i hate the ppl I work with, I have been reluctantly sticking to it - at least it is challenging, at least you have to think some of the time, even if it is boring.

"barring some glaring weakness (poor essays, bad interview skills, lukewarm LORs, late application"
well - poor essays I do NOT have. I have had probably half a dozen people read them over and no bad feedback whatsoever. only things like "your personal statement made me cry."
bad interview skills - I obviously am not too objective here, but I do not think so. I am friendly and affable, can hold a pretty intelligent conversation, opinionated but not shoving my opinion down anyones throat, and do not come across as cocky at all.
lukewarm LORs- I was pretty selective in who I asked, and I saw some of the letters (BCC'd to me?) so I doubt it. but I guess no way to ever know
late app - ~~~ MAYBE. this could be PART of a bigger problem.

RE: DO's I dont think its bad advice as much as just people honestly telling me what THEIR take is. maybe ALL the doctors I have spoken to are prejudiced and it was an unfair sampling. but being that these people are more in the 30-45 yr old range, not the 72-95 yr old range, I doubt that they are MORE biased than their peers, YKWIM?
and one of these docs who I spoke to interviews residency candidates and is on the selection committee. he told me that here in NY I am better off going to Israel and having the "FMG" stigma, than going DO. (We are toying with that option. Tel Aviv might have some great opportunity for my husband. but it is far, and not exactly like figuring out a way that I can go to school in philly and he can work in manhattan and what is in "in between city.") I am just going with what I heard.

I hear what you are saying about not needing my parents financial support, but to each their own. this is how we were raised, and I am ok with it. I want my parents to be proud, and I dont want them to not come to my graduation because they are so incensed by my decision. And going DO is not worth 200,000 dollars to me (because that is ~ how much it would cost), and we would be repaying loans for the next like 10 years (or more, who knows). right now, the only "stress" I have to deal with is getting in. I dont want to stress about paying for it too. I know myself and i know I wont be happier if I "become independent and pay for medical school myself" - especially if it is a school I am reluctant about being at to begin with!! to each their own, but that is just me.

 

[Food]

Sorry dude, I'd love to help you but your posts are ridiculously long.

 

[NTF]

any other suggestions about schools i might add?

Case
Cleveland Clinic

 

[s10m30]

nontradfogie: dont you think those are aiming way too high for me with my substellar stats? thats why I didnt apply....u think its worth it?

food: summary of my entire thread:

-reapplying to med school after getting rejected from everywhere for 09.
-graduated in 06 from top 50 school not ivy league. 3.6 gpa, 3.4 science gpa.
-took time off even though i went premed, just to make sure i really wanted to do this, also, felt there is just no need to rush off to med school, wanted to enjoy life and do some things i love.

-taught science for 1 year, nice experience, but never again.

-mcat 2x, 30 distributed differently each x.
-figured chances of improving substantially were low (premed advisor agreed), so moved on with 30. I have great essays (2 docs who read my PS over for me told me it made them cry!), am affable and a good interviewer, and the letters I have seen are glowing. was told (by premed advisor) that all the letters are really nice.

-spent next year in maryland at NCI as a CRTA research fellow (hard to get fellowship apparently),
-great experience but also helped me totally rule out any sort of basic science involvement as a clinician - not for me. but enjoyable learning experience nonetheless.
-1 publication (2nd author), 2 under review (one w me as first author)

add to that:
-lots of extracurricular stuff during college (premed club president, on school paper, organized sciency events and speeches, etc)
- research as an undergrad for all 4 summers (2 publications from my work)
-tons of volunteer experience (hospice , nursing homes, big sister, adoption agency, - all long term, not 2 months to pad application. 2 yrs or more on all these.
-100's of hrs of shadowing.


That is the summary.


now what I need advice about:

DH (have a baby and a husband) started his job in Manhattan (that is why I applied to so few schools, and only NY area ones for 09-since I knew wed be moving to Manhattan in June, so needed to be closeby) and I found a job doing research here in NYC, which I absolutely hate (hate ppl I work with and it is boring as hell).

Since I got into nowhere in NY, chances are, we will have to move in 1 yr from now. However, given DH's profession, we need to keep ourselves in big cities. I wrote a list of all the schools above.


DO is absolutely not an option for reasons I discussed above. OTOH, Tel Aviv might be an option and I have applied to Sackler and to Technion (50 min commute by train to tel aviv) as DH might have some unique opportunities over there.

my questions are:

1. any advice about s/t to do during this year, since I honestly cannot stay in this lab for an entire year, I hate it! options I was thinking of:
A: EMT-B so I can have basic contact with real patients not rats.
B: masters in something enjoyable and that I am passionate about (such as public health, not molecular bio).
Am open to really anything.


2. any schools people think I should add or any general advice as to how I can up my chances for 2010.

 

[Food]

nontradfogie: dont you think those are aiming way too high for me with my substellar stats? thats why I didnt apply....u think its worth it?

food: summary of my entire thread:

-reapplying to med school after getting rejected from everywhere for 09.
-graduated in 06 from top 50 school not ivy league. 3.6 gpa, 3.4 science gpa.
-took time off even though i went premed, just to make sure i really wanted to do this, also, felt there is just no need to rush off to med school, wanted to enjoy life and do some things i love.

-taught science for 1 year, nice experience, but never again.

-mcat 2x, 30 distributed differently each x.
-figured chances of improving substantially were low (premed advisor agreed), so moved on with 30. I have great essays (2 docs who read my PS over for me told me it made them cry!), am affable and a good interviewer, and the letters I have seen are glowing. was told (by premed advisor) that all the letters are really nice.

-spent next year in maryland at NCI as a CRTA research fellow (hard to get fellowship apparently),
-great experience but also helped me totally rule out any sort of basic science involvement as a clinician - not for me. but enjoyable learning experience nonetheless.
-1 publication (2nd author), 2 under review (one w me as first author)

add to that:
-lots of extracurricular stuff during college (premed club president, on school paper, organized sciency events and speeches, etc)
- research as an undergrad for all 4 summers (2 publications from my work)
-tons of volunteer experience (hospice , nursing homes, big sister, adoption agency, - all long term, not 2 months to pad application. 2 yrs or more on all these.
-100's of hrs of shadowing.


That is the summary.


now what I need advice about:

DH (have a baby and a husband) started his job in Manhattan (that is why I applied to so few schools, and only NY area ones for 09-since I knew wed be moving to Manhattan in June, so needed to be closeby) and I found a job doing research here in NYC, which I absolutely hate (hate ppl I work with and it is boring as hell).

Since I got into nowhere in NY, chances are, we will have to move in 1 yr from now. However, given DH's profession, we need to keep ourselves in big cities. I wrote a list of all the schools above.


DO is absolutely not an option for reasons I discussed above. OTOH, Tel Aviv might be an option and I have applied to Sackler and to Technion (50 min commute by train to tel aviv) as DH might have some unique opportunities over there.

my questions are:

1. any advice about s/t to do during this year, since I honestly cannot stay in this lab for an entire year, I hate it! options I was thinking of:
A: EMT-B so I can have basic contact with real patients not rats.
B: masters in something enjoyable and that I am passionate about (such as public health, not molecular bio).
Am open to really anything.


2. any schools people think I should add or any general advice as to how I can up my chances for 2010.

Hm...I think you'll have to go outside NY. So many people (me included) apply to NY schools. East coast is just too competitive. I'd look at schools in the midwest / south. As for Tel Aviv, would you rather go out there than stay in the states? If so, then that's not a bad idea. But I really think you can get into a U.S. MD program, because your GPA is fine, your MCAT is fine, and you are a non-trad with tons of experience. They definitely will not question your committment to medicine. It's just so competitive that I'm pretty sure you will not be able to stay in NY. If I were in your shoes I'd probably look to some schools in big Midwest cities. Chicago's not a bad idea, and there are a pretty decent number of schools around there.

As for what to do for the rest of the year, I'm not sure. I thought about this a lot as well, since I'm a reapp. But I like the EMT idea, mainly because I always wished for a chance to do it. Apparently though, it's a competitive job market for EMT. The MPH is not a bad idea either, especially if you can argue that this is where your career focus might end up being.

Strategies for reapplying involve marketing yourself as well as possible without giving a bad impression. You're going to have to address the fact that you're a reapplicant and show that it's actually made you a better, more motivated person, etc. That's basically how I've been going at it, and it's actually true. There are a lot of things that reapplication has taught me and they are pretty valuable lessons. If you get interviewed, you're going to have to kill those interviews, and do everything possible to show them all the great new stuff you've been doing, and are planning on doing. As long as they see that you're giving this a genuine effort I think it'll work out. Because academically, there isn't a huge concern - you're somewhat mediocre but you also have been playing the field long enough for them to take you seriously.

 

[Looking Glass]

Case
Cleveland Clinic

Unrealistic, those school's averages are a 3.7 for GPA and a 35 for MCAT. The OP may get lucky and get an interview, but I forsee a rejection or a waitlist for her.

As for a New York medical school, that's even more unrealistic. New York medical schools are some of the most competitive in the country. If you look through the MSAR, the average MCAT and GPA for any school MD school in New York City (Mt. Sinai, NYU, Columbia, Cornell) is around 3.8 and 35 - she may have better luck with Albert Einstein and NYMC, but their averages are also around 3.7 and 33. If the OP can just talk to her parent, maybe she can convince them to apply to Touro NY and NYCOM - those are DO schools, but they are the only medical schools in New York that the OP has a realistic chance with her current GPA and MCAT.

The other option would be for the OP to take more classes and study and get her MCAT up to somewhere above 35+ (preferrably a 37 or 38) in order to have a chance with the NY allopathic medical schools. Israeli medical school may be good option, but she may have problems matching into competitive residencies later on since those are considered foreign medical schools.

As for what to do on her year off - I really can't say. I'm tempted to tell her to find a research job and make some extra money and see if she gets lucky this year. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that her stats may simply not be competitive enough for an MD school because she applied to so many state medical schools that don't accept out of state residents and because a lot of private medical schools that she applied to (Boston, Penn, Pittsbrugh, Loyola) have average acceptance scores higher than her current scores. I disagree with the previous poster about her competitiveness, I think that in order to have a realistic shot at the medical school that she applied to (mostly OOS schools and private schools in big cities), she will have to retake the MCAT and do substantially better.

 

[Food]

Unrealistic, those school's averages are a 3.7 for GPA and a 35 for MCAT. The OP may get lucky and get an interview, but I forsee a rejection or a waitlist for her.

As for a New York medical school, that's even more unrealistic. New York medical schools are some of the most competitive in the country. If you look through the MSAR, the average MCAT and GPA for any school MD school in New York City (Mt. Sinai, NYU, Columbia, Cornell) is around 3.8 and 35 - she may have better luck with Albert Einstein and NYMC, but their averages are also around 3.7 and 33. If the OP can just talk to her parent, maybe she can convince them to apply to Touro NY and NYCOM - those are DO schools, but they are the only medical schools in New York that the OP has a realistic chance with her current GPA and MCAT.

The other option would be for the OP to take more classes and study and get her MCAT up to somewhere above 35+ (preferrably a 37 or 38) in order to have a chance with the NY allopathic medical schools. Israeli medical school may be good option, but she may have problems matching into competitive residencies later on since those are considered foreign medical schools.

As for what to do on her year off - I really can't say. I'm tempted to tell her to find a research job and make some extra money and see if she gets lucky this year. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that her stats may simply not be competitive enough for an MD school because she applied to so many state medical schools that don't accept out of state residents and because a lot of private medical schools that she applied to (Boston, Penn, Pittsbrugh, Loyola) have average acceptance scores higher than her current scores. Ultimately, I think that in order to have a realistic shot at a US medical shool, she will have to retake the MCAT.

Okay, people don't understand the MCAT too well. She already took it twice. She got a 30 both times. They know that's right around her max potential. A 30 isn't bad, that corresponds to a USMLE that's way over passing. A 30 just isn't competitive enough - they're not going to look at her 30 and think she can't handle the work, there's just way too many people with better scores. In that case she has to play up her strengths.

I would tell her to retake the MCAT too, but given her circumstances I'm not sure it's the best idea. Anyway, she already knows NY schools are super competitive. Case is probably out of reach, but she needs to apply to schools that aren't all in love with numbers (like Case or WashU).

 

[womp]

thank you gman for your reply.
in terms of my "stats" you are referring strictly to GPA and MCAt, correct?
I have applied to 3x as many schools as last year. I wish I could add more (if it were entirely up to me, heck, I would apply to all 126 or so in the US, and fill out all those secondaries to bat!), but they have to be places that are reasonable for my family, not just me. there is more at play than just "is it a town with nice beaches" or whatever.

I hear what you said about DO schools, and I have gotten mixed messages from different people about this. My parents (who will be footing the bill) are adamantly opposed. Most older physicians who I have spoken to (and by older, I dont mean 70, I mean 30 and above, so have finished residencies and fellowships and have faculty positions) have told me as well, that I should not go this route if I dont want to severely limit myself later on in my career. OTOH, I have some friends in DO school, and friends in MD school, who have all told me "whats the big deal, just do it." But when I have what my parents say (and that weighs alot, being that they are paying) and what professionals say, vs what novices who are in med school or just started their internships 2 months ago are saying, I am going to go with the former, even if the process takes longer for me because of my decision. THat is part of my reasoning.

now, I understand what you mean when you say my "stats" are below average, but what do you mean when you say "you have a very average appilcation?"???

what exactly DO I have to do to shine? to do something above average? maybe (I hope) I have made myself more clear on my AMCAS app this year than I have in the past (and than I have in this thread), but I do think that as a person, I have done more than "average."

I have done more than your "average" "typical" volunteer work, for more than the "required" 4 hrs/wk or whatever it might be.
and I have followed up on my volunteer commitments for long periods of time, they arent "semester gigs" just to get a LOR.
I truly am committed to every single one, otherwise I dont write it down, because it is just BS and I think AdComs will see that (maybe I am wrong? and I am not bluffing enough to boost my case?).
the NCI Research Fellowship I did, is hard to get. My PI told me that he had over 100 applications for my spot. I did think that was "prestigious."
I was heavily involved as an undergrad, and not just with your typical "I am a premed club member and I am actively involved because I go to all the activities." I taught at a school in a heavily underserved neighborhood for a year. not because I needed to, and trust me, the money made it far from worth it. because I WANTED to. do I need to like go to africa or something and help people with AIDS all day for 2 year in order to "shine?" seriously. I dont get what I have to do to be "unique." I wish someone could tell me. that is why I was thinking of this EMT thing. you have to understand, I have a family. so moving to africa aint happening. teach for america would be exceedingly difficult. peace core (not that I would ever want to join) is impossible. so WHAT do I have to do to be more than average? really? I appreciate the constructive criticism, but can you please tell me what about what I have done is really average?

I DID retake the MCAT. My score got redistributed from a 12/10/8 to a 11/10/9. hardly an improvement, IMO. and that was after another two months of studying. I did not think, and still dont think, retaking it would help my cause, and might hurt my cause if i fail to improve a third time. Two deans (well, one assistant dean) of two med schools told me this - they said that my MCAT score is definitely not what is holding me back.

with regard to my GPA - there I am torn. one dean told me to do a SMP, the other one told me it would be a "wate of time" for someone like me - they are geared towards people with GPAs of like 3.0 etc - to make vast improvements. so I really dont know. at any rate, it is too late for this year, and I have already submitted my primary. If there is a program-any program, in the NY area, that I could still attend for 2009 and anyone thinks that might help, please tell me, and I will do it right now.

When you say take some upper level science courses, do you mean with a SMP or just go to some local college and register for biochem etc?

I totally sympathize with your frustrations. Medical school admissions administrators who sit 9 to 5 (and not a minute longer) in their chairs with a BA in Education play god and assign the fates of thousands of capable and dedicated applicants. Your EC's aren't average at all, they are incredible in light of your being a mother. And if admissions administrators think they are "just average," I want to know what they themselves are doing to save the world outside their jobs. The whole process reeks of hypocrisy. Many of the older doctors who grill students on interviews never even themselves interviewed to get into medical school.

 

[NTF]

nontradfogie: dont you think those are aiming way too high for me with my substellar stats? thats why I didnt apply....u think its worth it?

They're no more a stretch than PENN or UPitt (which you have on your list). Both are schools with research heavy curricula so your strong credentials in this field might make you more appealing. Case gives a lot of interviews (I got one even with my mediocre stats) so you might be able to wow them in person.

 

[s10m30]

Thanks fish and looking glass for your help.
I am answering you both in easy bullet form below. I am sorry for such annoying posts, I just want to tweak everything that i can right now, and in addition to that I am very unhappy at my current research fellowship (despite the fact that I am making >3x more than what I did at NCI, that is US govt for u lol!!!), and I want to make the most of this year.

Food-
- leaving NY: we know this is a huge possiblity. Other than the cities I mentioned, are there any other schools in big cities in Midwest or S you would recommend adding. Im open to anything,but it has to fly by DH, otherwise he will be wasting 4 yrs of HIS life on a nowhere career path while I go to med school in say…Alabama.

- tel aviv – short ans: no. I would rather stay in the US. But if after applying to ~30 schools, answer is no everywhere I apply, I want to have a plan.

- EMT: don’t care about the “job” market, I would be totally doing it as a full-time volunteer like with FDNY or whoever will take me! After all think about it- training (AFAIK- please someone tell me I am wrong!!!) takes 2-3 months (since it is 2x/wk, there are no full time every day programs- not that I can find! I wish there was!!!), by the time I finish, I will only have at best 6-7 months to offer, why would someone hire me?

- MPH – do you (or anyone else) know about good independent MPH programs in NY? I am definitely thinking about the MD-MPH track (but usually this is something that can be arranged when you are already in med school) but I don’t know much about doing a stand alone MPH. is it too late? I only have 1 yr.

- addressing reap status- I did, in my personal statement as well as some secondaries.

- case/washu- you seriously don’t think those are too “reach”y for me? I will totally add them, I just figured wasn’t worth my 35 dollars or secondary fees (or time wasted writing essays that will be overlooked because my MCAT / GPA are too low for their standards). Any other schools you can think of? I am open to anything. Just has to work for my fam. But all suggestions are welcome!


Looking glass:

- I know NY might be really tough, which is why moving is an option. (NYMC avg is 3.6 and 31, not 3.7 and 33. Btw.)

- DO schools/talking to my parents – don’t want to. I am ok with this decision. They are gonna shell out a lot of money and we are ok with moving. I don’t want to turn this into a MD vs DO thread. Suffice it to say, not for me, not doing it. I gave my reasons above. I have friends who graduated DO school (nova southeastern, NYIT) this yr, and are doing what they want to be doing (albeit one all the way in maine or somewhere far out like that). I have friends at NYIT, Touro, and NYCOM. Nothing against any of those schools. Hopefully, applying to 30ish schools (and please e/o add suggestions if you think I should add any more! Plus Israeli programs, will ofer me a chance in 2010.

- MCAT: chance of me drastically improving w a 2x score of 30, are just as high as my chances of drastically reducing it L. IMVVVHO, not worth the RISK! Plus, I wanted to start in 09. Now I am looking at 2010. Retaking the mcat would put me at 2011. Really really tough with a family. Remember that is also in my equation.

- residency/Israeli schools – looking at technions match list, and maybe they are bluffing- 08 included deaconess Vanderbilt, mayo u of Colorado and UCSF (for things like surg, derm, anesthesiology etc, not fam medicine x50 spots). In ny: Columbia presby, MSSM, Lenox Hill, NYU and Cornell in NYC. But no places like Westchester med, st barnabas in the Bronx or ny flushing in queens, which are filled with FMGs. Apparently NY programs don’t “stigmatize” Israeli programs or put them in the same category as places like Ross or other carribean diplomavilles. Although I really don’t know. That is just what I have heard.

- “find a research job and make some extra money”- I have that! And I hate it! So boring and unfulfilling. I want to do something that will allow me to go home at the end of the day and actually feel like I made a difference in someone’s life. Killing rats doesn’t give me that.

let me know what you guys think. thanks a ton.

 

[s10m30]

Womp, thanks for your support. That is exactly what really gets me off about all these directors of admissions. Few schools actually hire MDs to do their bidding work (who would give up clinical practice to head an admissions committee full time), and there aren’t that many who have an EdD or PhD sitting behind the desk either. Yea, its usually someone with like a BA in education, some divorced 52 year old and ITA. Not that I Think I “deserve” a spot any more than anyone else, but I do think I have a lot to offer and I don’t think its fair that someone with less education than I have at the age of 23, should be determining my life for me.

And yea. The mom thing is tough. On one hand, I really refrained from even mentioning it in any essays. The only hint of me being a mom is in the fact that I checked off the box that indicates that I have one dependent. But I was told people (some old man who never had an interview when he applied…hehe….) might hold it as a major red flag against me. But I feel like I have so much to offer and I really have done a lot. NOT “BS” things like just to pad my application. Real things.

Nontradfogie- I know penn is a reach, but I just figured since I am adding all the schools in the area, why not just, as a crapshoot. Upitt, I figured my research heavy CV might appeal to them.

I am going to add case and washu. Even if I can get an interview at case (where someone said above, they give out tons of interviews but obviously not as many acceptances), hopefully I can really wow them. Cant hurt.

Any advice re:
Any other schools
Or
EMT
Or
MPH
Or any other option for the coming yr

Would be greatly appreciated!

 

[NTF]

Any advice re:
Any other schools
Or
EMT
Or
MPH
Or any other option for the coming yr

Would be greatly appreciated!

I don't think the MPH really adds anything to your application given your extremely strong research credentials.

I think getting a full-time patient care job (in a hospital) or working as an EMT would help the most (other than getting a mid-30s MCAT w/ at least a 10 on each section).

Other than that I think your application is pretty strong. Like I said before if you apply broadly and early I'd be very surprised if you didn't get in somewhere.

 

[NTF]

As an aside I find the comments about admissions staff rather snobbish. For interviews, humility and dignified confidence will win the day. Admissions staff whatever your opinion of their qualifications, actually take their jobs seriously and are passionate about education. They're actually often very astute about which candidates are "good fits" for their schools. The experienced ones are also extremely good at reading people and can sense even a whiff of condescension.

 

[Looking Glass]

Looking glass:

- I know NY might be really tough, which is why moving is an option. (NYMC avg is 3.6 and 31, not 3.7 and 33. Btw.)

- DO schools/talking to my parents &#8211; don't want to. I am ok with this decision. They are gonna shell out a lot of money and we are ok with moving. I don't want to turn this into a MD vs DO thread. Suffice it to say, not for me, not doing it. I gave my reasons above. I have friends who graduated DO school (nova southeastern, NYIT) this yr, and are doing what they want to be doing (albeit one all the way in maine or somewhere far out like that). I have friends at NYIT, Touro, and NYCOM. Nothing against any of those schools. Hopefully, applying to 30ish schools (and please e/o add suggestions if you think I should add any more! Plus Israeli programs, will ofer me a chance in 2010.

- MCAT: chance of me drastically improving w a 2x score of 30, are just as high as my chances of drastically reducing it L. IMVVVHO, not worth the RISK! Plus, I wanted to start in 09. Now I am looking at 2010. Retaking the mcat would put me at 2011. Really really tough with a family. Remember that is also in my equation.

- residency/Israeli schools &#8211; looking at technions match list, and maybe they are bluffing- 08 included deaconess Vanderbilt, mayo u of Colorado and UCSF (for things like surg, derm, anesthesiology etc, not fam medicine x50 spots). In ny: Columbia presby, MSSM, Lenox Hill, NYU and Cornell in NYC. But no places like Westchester med, st barnabas in the Bronx or ny flushing in queens, which are filled with FMGs. Apparently NY programs don't "stigmatize" Israeli programs or put them in the same category as places like Ross or other carribean diplomavilles. Although I really don't know. That is just what I have heard.

- "find a research job and make some extra money"- I have that! And I hate it! So boring and unfulfilling. I want to do something that will allow me to go home at the end of the day and actually feel like I made a difference in someone's life. Killing rats doesn't give me that.

let me know what you guys think. thanks a ton.

Yeah, NYMC is less obssessed with numbers and you're competitive there. You're also competitive at a few of the SUNY schools I think. However, don't be deceived by the average MCAT and GPA scores of some of the medical schools in big cities such as GWU, Boston, Drexel, and Jefferson. Those schools may not have very high average scores, but they are very competitive nonetheless because they receive upwards of 10,000 applications for 100-200 spots. I think it's a good idea for you to apply to some of your state schools and a few of the New Jersey school. Again, I'm not trying to discourage you from applying to MD programs, but it will be a very challenging application cycle because you applied before and your MCAT did not improve substantially. Given the fact that more people apply every year and the fact that the average MCAT score of matriculant has risen in the past few years, it will probably be even more challenging this year (Let's face it, you MCAT score would have been very competitive 5 years ago but it's below average nowadays).

I'm not very familiar with Israeli medical schools, but since they are considered foreign medical schools, I would imagine that it might be more challenging to get into a desirable residency than if you came from the US, though it isn't as stigmatized as the Carribbean medical schools. Again, talk to your family members and other people who have done this and see what they say about matching into a US residency after graduating from an Israeli medical school.

I agree with nontradfogie about not condesceding with the admissions people. For the most part, they're the gatekeepers and it means we will have to play by their rules. A whiff of condescension during an interview will destroy any credible chance of getting into a medical school. Besides that, I think the ultimate decision still rests with the admissions committee, which consists of MD who volunteer part of their time to review applicant files and "vote" on whether or not to admit an applicant that they like.

 

[LizzyM]

Womp, thanks for your support. That is exactly what really gets me off about all these directors of admissions. Few schools actually hire MDs to do their bidding work (who would give up clinical practice to head an admissions committee full time),

Some academic physicians give up or cut back on clinical practice to serve in administration at the medical school (deanships). The dean of admissions at my own school still teachs/leads a patient care team (supervising residents) in the "off season" and does a little teaching during admission season. The remainder of the admissions committee consists of full time medical school faculty. Most ARE MDs but they are not paid, they are volunteers who put in as many as 14 hours per week during the season to help select the next medical school class.

 

[womp]

As an aside I find the comments about admissions staff rather snobbish. For interviews, humility and dignified confidence will win the day. Admissions staff whatever your opinion of their qualifications, actually take their jobs seriously and are passionate about education. They're actually often very astute about which candidates are "good fits" for their schools. The experienced ones are also extremely good at reading people and can sense even a whiff of condescension.

I did not mean to be snobbish nor condescending. It's more a reaction to being treated like bartering cattle by some medical school admissions offices. Behind the application is a real person with real aspirations and a lot of hard-earned sweat, and I do feel that more than a few admission staff members forget that, and the god complex kicks in, simply because they have the power to do so and because many on the staffs did not go through a comparable process.

And BTW, there's considerable subjectivity and delayed/obfuscated accountability in the whole admissions process. It's difficult to evaluate how astute the admission committee really was until many years down the line or when the committee has long been replaced many times over. One's idea of astute adcoms are generally those who accepted oneself. We all try our best, but many still fall through the cracks while others who are over their heads find out during med school or worse, after they become doctors.

 

[LizzyM]

I did not mean to be snobbish nor condescending. It's more a reaction to being treated like bartering cattle by some medical school admissions offices. Behind the application is a real person with real aspirations and a lot of hard-earned sweat, and I do feel that more than a few admission staff members forget that, and the god complex kicks in, simply because they have the power to do so and because many on the staffs did not go through a comparable process.

And BTW, there's considerable subjectivity and delayed/obfuscated accountability in the whole admissions process. It's difficult to evaluate how astute the admission committee really was until many years down the line or when the committee has long been replaced many times over. One's idea of astute adcoms are generally those who accepted oneself. We all try our best, but many still fall through the cracks while others who are over their heads find out during med school or worse, after they become doctors.

All admission decisions are made by members of the medical school faculty. That's true at every school because it is required by the group that accredits medical schools. It is not easy for adcom members to recommend "no interview" or "waitlist after interview" and we often wish we had 1,000 or even 4,000 seats but we don't. Many of us have children who have been through the selection process at some level (HS, college, professional school) in recent years and we know how emotionally draining it can be for applicants and their families. We have souls, too. Many of us went through the medical school admission process but it has changed over the years and I often hear some of the physician-faculty say, "I'd never get in if I were applying today."

One measure for adcoms is the number of students who do not do well and who repeat a year (M1 or M2). That is often a clue that we matriculated a student who could not handle the material. The other point is four years later when we have students who do not enter the match and who choose not to practice medicine. (It is rare but it does happen.) Some adcom members stay on the committee for seven years or more so we do have some institutional memory and we do receive feedback from the dean of students, etc with regard to predictors prior to admission of success in our school and beyond.