re-application plan

[mathwiz1697]

---

Members do not see this ad.

hey yall, My cycle looks dead, although I;m hopeful I can get an interview.

I already know that people are going to say my 503 (126/124/127/126) is low. It is frustrating to see people with my MCAT getting interviews, but thoughts aside, I am currently taking it May 30th. my diagnostic was a 507 with no studying, so we will see how it plays out, I haven't studied in a couple of months due to life and the stress of this cycle, but hopefully once my update letters are done, I can start studying again more regularly.

My uGPA and sGPA are 2.65 from the college of William and Mary. I did my masters degree at Case Western MSMP and got a 3.906.

As for my EC's:

I have 5000 hours of experience as a medical scribe in primary care.

I have 1600 hours of experience as a volunteer EMT.

I have 150 hours of shadowing, 120 in neurosurgery, and 30 in pediatrics

I have approximately 3000 hours and counting of research spread between neurology and neurosurgery. No publications, although I'm allegedly supposed to be published in a few weeks. Not sure if I will be, but I hope I will, since the PI said anyone that did the data analysis would be on the publication.

I was a rower in high school and college, and that took up about 5000 hours if more. Club sport.

I spent about 1000 hours as a Chem Lab TA in undergrad.

I did 2000 hours as a Clinical reasoning TA at the graduate level after my SMP.

I am an Eagle Scout and have a strong foundation in community service.

I have about 70 hours of weekly work as a reading tutor.

I also have about 100 hours as a resident hall associate representative.



What I believe is holding me back:

obviously my MCAT. This will be my fourth and final attempt. I know I am capable of better than a 503, as I scored a 512 on arguably the hardest FL right before my actual test in 2023, I am still very salty about it.

Non-clinical volunteering: I graduated in 2019 from undergrad, and through college, non clinical volunteering was not stressed as much as it is now. To my recollection, I do not think my adviser mentioned once that I needed it, and she's helped 100's if not thousands of students get into medical school, unlike alot of advisers, she is very competent and keeps up to date on the application process. I would do more volunteering, but between a full time job and studying for the MCAT, it has been impossible to do more than my once a week reading session.


Apply DO. I know that my application is solid for DO. Problem is I want to do neurosurgery, and I have for the last 25 years. Where most kindergarteners said that wanted to be a firefighter or police officer, I wanted to be a brain surgeon. If there was not inherent bias against DO for neurosurgery, I would be less hesitant. Even the DO neurosurgeons I work with said I should go MD if I want to do neurosurgery. That being said, I am tired, and I not sure If I should go through a 4th cycle (after this next year's one, which will be number 3).


Secondaries: I got all my important secondaries out before Labor day. that being said, I guess I have to apply even earlier this year.


any advise on how I can otherwise improve my application with what little free time I have would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Dral]

I'd say some of that non-clinical volunteering could really help. Think helping homeless, soup kitchen, etc.

If you are giving it one more go, you'll have to ask yourself if it's neurosurgery or bust. If you have the desire to be a physician even if it's not neurosurgery, then you may alter your plans a bit.

If you are totally neurosurgery or bust, then maybe don't add on any DO programs. You can still become a neurosurgeon by that route, but as you know, it is more of an uphill climb. If you don't get into neurosurgery, by going DO, you'd have to be prepared to go gen surg or even primary care. Heck, that may be what could happen if you go MD. Neurosurgery is about one of the most difficult things to get into and you have to be on the ball from almost day one.


Anyway, good luck. The upcoming MCAT score will give more information about your plans. I'm guessing your low GPA does not help at all despite the nice work in the SMP. I think DO schools will be a bit more likely to overlook the UG GPA as well.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

The original post doesn't mention 3 past MCAT attempts and a 4th one scheduled. What were those scores?

What insights have your program directors at your SMP given you about your chances with those past MCAT scores? Getting a 3.9 in a SMP is solid so good luck on that hopefully final MCAT.

Did you apply to DO programs? I think your insistence to do Neurosurgery or else "forget about going into medicine" is a big turn-off because you're telling me you aren't interested in doctoring, which takes up a huge part of your training in medical school. There are no guarantees you'll get into neurosurgery, especially in light of your academic history (though there are fallacies for believing that history determines future). Why did you have 5000 hours scribing in a primary care clinic? Of course, why did you shadow with neurosurgeons for 100+ hours?

How long has it been since your Eagle Scout project? What have you done since (the "what have you done for your community lately" test)?

 

[mathwiz1697]

The original post doesn't mention 3 past MCAT attempts and a 4th one scheduled. What were those scores?

What insights have your program directors at your SMP given you about your chances with those past MCAT scores? Getting a 3.9 in a SMP is solid so good luck on that hopefully final MCAT.

Did you apply to DO programs? I think your insistence to do Neurosurgery or else "forget about going into medicine" is a big turn-off because you're telling me you aren't interested in doctoring, which takes up a huge part of your training in medical school. There are no guarantees you'll get into neurosurgery, especially in light of your academic history (though there are fallacies for believing that history determines future). Why did you have 5000 hours scribing in a primary care clinic? Of course, why did you shadow with neurosurgeons for 100+ hours?

How long has it been since your Eagle Scout project? What have you done since (the "what have you done for your community lately" test)?

from the top, My mcat scores were a 499, 502, and 503. Ill edit this with this breakdown later.

When you say my advisors and my chances with those past mcat scores, what are you referring to? if you're referring to to my chances of getting in, they've told me theyre not sure why I am not getting anything, because they have written a strong LOR indicating a theme that's present in all of my LOR's; I am one of the rare exceptions where my MCAT score does not match my ability to succeed in medical school. my advisor says that I would do well wherever I went because of my strong abilities in clinical reasoning itself. They would know, since they were the professor I worked under as a TA.


Its not neurosurgery or bust because of the clout, its neurosurgery because that's what interests me, which is the point of becoming a doctor, to pursue a specialty your passionate about, which for me, happens to be neurosurgery. I don't think its reasonable to view it negatively that's where my passion lies. It is also unfortunate that you say I am not interested in doctoring, as at least 50% of my neurosurgery shadowing experience was in the clinical setting, not the OR. in fact, the surgeon I shadowed is usually against surgery, sans a last resort, because like you said, doctoring is important, and that has stuck with me since.

I was a medical scribe in order to get more patient care experience and to see it from a primary care perspective.

I shadowed a neurosurgeon as part of a mentorship experience in high school. However, this particular neurosurgeon was the same neurosurgeon that operated on me when I was 3 months old and saved my life. It was a very formative experience for me, and I have had several adcoms from several schools tell me that it would be doing my application a severe injustice to not include it in my application. Again a very niche circumstance.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

When you say my advisors and my chances with those past mcat scores, what are you referring to? if you're referring to to my chances of getting in, they've told me theyre not sure why I am not getting anything, because they have written a strong LOR indicating a theme that's present in all of my LOR's; I am one of the rare exceptions where my MCAT score does not match my ability to succeed in medical school. my advisor says that I would do well wherever I went because of my strong abilities in clinical reasoning itself. They would know, since they were the professor I worked under as a TA.

Reviewing an admissions application is analogous to the blind sages describing an elephant.

Did you apply after you finished the SMP? Most of us admissions folks warn that to prove to us you are ready for medical school, you should have at least 1 term/year of SMP grades recorded before applying. We have been burned too many times by SMP students who couldn't pass their SMP classes while applying. This is one reason why I tell people to look for the articulation agreements associated with an SMP; if you can get a guaranteed articulation seat after doing well in 1 semester's worth of SMP courses, that's the streamlined path to getting started after you are done. Otherwise, you are better served waiting until your full SMP year's grades are posted.

And I don't need to say but your MCATs are too low for most MD schools. Many schools average your MCAT attempts for screening, which puts your average at 501/502 after 3 tries. DO schools should have been on your radar from the jump, and your prehealth advisor should have told you this. ...

To my recollection, I do not think my adviser mentioned once that I needed it, and she's helped 100's if not thousands of students get into medical school, unlike alot of advisers, she is very competent and keeps up to date on the application process. I would do more volunteering, but between a full time job and studying for the MCAT, it has been impossible to do more than my once a week reading session.

I presume she is surprised you haven't gotten more interviews (or accepted). Again, mission fit is a strong determinant of success, and if your school list doesn't align with your purpose as a physician, your application experience will likely fall short of your expectations. Prehealth advisors are not fortune-tellers. Your advisor can likely find out why your application hasn't gotten traction by asking admissions professionals; she should be able to figure out why you have had difficulties. Indeed, your SMP director should be doing the same thing; SMPs want to be known for getting as many people into medical/professional school as possible.

I can only conjecture; some schools have a no-compromise floor for undergrad GPA (i.e., they don't reward reinvention). I asked whether you applied before you finished your SMP (schools that reward reinvention want the evidence). Some of those schools want to see humble service orientation activities (not teaching, but food distribution, shelter volunteer, job/tax preparation, legal support, transportation services, or housing rehabilitation).

If you reapply, most admissions professionals agree you must rewrite your personal statement. It might be harder to rewrite other essays, but the more you can show significant improvement when warranted, the better. I'm a little skeptical of advice that says you need to include the life-saving impact from your neurosurgeon because I often find it presented in a way that doesn't tie into a purpose as a physician. It's better left as an "impactful experience" or "something you should know about me" for a re-write where I want to focus on examples where you show you understand the impact you have made on your community and why becoming a doctor makes sense. (Just my thoughts.)

 

[mathwiz1697]

Reviewing an admissions application is analogous to the blind sages describing an elephant.

Did you apply after you finished the SMP? Most of us admissions folks warn that to prove to us you are ready for medical school, you should have at least 1 term/year of SMP grades recorded before applying. We have been burned too many times by SMP students who couldn't pass their SMP classes while applying. This is one reason why I tell people to look for the articulation agreements associated with an SMP; if you can get a guaranteed articulation seat after doing well in 1 semester's worth of SMP courses, that's the streamlined path to getting started after you are done. Otherwise, you are better served waiting until your full SMP year's grades are posted.

And I don't need to say but your MCATs are too low for most MD schools. Many schools average your MCAT attempts for screening, which puts your average at 501/502 after 3 tries. DO schools should have been on your radar from the jump, and your prehealth advisor should have told you this. ...



I presume she is surprised you haven't gotten more interviews (or accepted). Again, mission fit is a strong determinant of success, and if your school list doesn't align with your purpose as a physician, your application experience will likely fall short of your expectations. Prehealth advisors are not fortune-tellers. Your advisor can likely find out why your application hasn't gotten traction by asking admissions professionals; she should be able to figure out why you have had difficulties. Indeed, your SMP director should be doing the same thing; SMPs want to be known for getting as many people into medical/professional school as possible.

I can only conjecture; some schools have a no-compromise floor for undergrad GPA (i.e., they don't reward reinvention). I asked whether you applied before you finished your SMP (schools that reward reinvention want the evidence). Some of those schools want to see humble service orientation activities (not teaching, but food distribution, shelter volunteer, job/tax preparation, legal support, transportation services, or housing rehabilitation).

If you reapply, most admissions professionals agree you must rewrite your personal statement. It might be harder to rewrite other essays, but the more you can show significant improvement when warranted, the better. I'm a little skeptical of advice that says you need to include the life-saving impact from your neurosurgeon because I often find it presented in a way that doesn't tie into a purpose as a physician. It's better left as an "impactful experience" or "something you should know about me" for a re-write where I want to focus on examples where you show you understand the impact you have made on your community and why becoming a doctor makes sense. (Just my thoughts.)

your insight is very helpful. I did not apply until I completed my SMP. I have not been in touch with my undergrad adviser since it has been several years, I was moreso giving background as to why I don't have many non-clinical volunteering hours, as it was not stressed to be as important as it is now.

It is dissapointing to hear that my non-clinical volunteering is not good enough to some schools, as between working full time and studying for the MCAT, I simply do not have the time for more. It feels like im being punished for having to work to live if that the case. it is frustrating that I have to rewrite my personal statement a third time, as It has already gone through heavy revisions. I have several medical students look it over and they said it was solid. As for the part about my neurosurgeon, its briefly tied into my PS, but explained more detail as an MME, because it was a very formative experience as to why I want to be a physician, that is the purpose of the MME's is it not? Its not about the life saving impact directly, but to be able to shadow and work with him, which was the important part.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

your insight is very helpful. I did not apply until I completed my SMP. I have not been in touch with my undergrad adviser since it has been several years, I was moreso giving background as to why I don't have many non-clinical volunteering hours, as it was not stressed to be as important as it is now.

It is dissapointing to hear that my non-clinical volunteering is not good enough to some schools, as between working full time and studying for the MCAT, I simply do not have the time for more. It feels like im being punished for having to work to live if that the case. it is frustrating that I have to rewrite my personal statement a third time, as It has already gone through heavy revisions. I have several medical students look it over and they said it was solid. As for the part about my neurosurgeon, its briefly tied into my PS, but explained more detail as an MME, because it was a very formative experience as to why I want to be a physician, that is the purpose of the MME's is it not? Its not about the life saving impact directly, but to be able to shadow and work with him, which was the important part.

You can't be too closely wedded to your personal statement. You won't be using it when you apply for residency anyway.

This is why applicants should be attending recruitment events and talking to the admissions officers who are there before applying.

Practical Perspectives for Navigating the Admissions Process | Student Doctor Network | SDN

Drawing from years of experience as an assistant dean for admissions, Heidi Fuchs offers candid guidance for pre-health students and their advisors

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[chilly_md]

Chances are best at DO and I echo Dral's thoughts. You can try again for MD but with that many attempts on the MCAT and poor undergrad, it is very unlikely. If a newer MD school accepts you, you will face close to a DO level difficulty still of matching neurosurgery. Step 2 aside, there is a lot that those interested in the specialty need to do.

So it is up to whether you can find joy in other specialties.

 

[PickaGodnPray]

Right now, your focus should be on nothing but killing your MCAT. That May 30th date is going to be a tight window for you but I am sure you will already have everything complete primary wise before your test date. One thing I would just like to add is make sure to submit your primary to at least one school once AMCAS opens up. You can go back after it is verified (and more importantly once you have your new MCAT score) to add more schools, but this way you don't get put to the end of the verification line.
Lastly, I don't have your app so I don't know what you wrote, but be careful how you write about wanting neurosurgery. If it has any chance of coming off as "neurosurgery or bust" this could also be why schools are hesitant as these residencies tend to favor ~80 percentile STEP 2 scores and they may worry with your previous MCAT history. Hell, hopefully this last comment doesn't matter and you nail your retake, but just food for thought. GL!

 

[polymerization]

Lastly, I don't have your app so I don't know what you wrote, but be careful how you write about wanting neurosurgery. If it has any chance of coming off as "neurosurgery or bust" this could also be why schools are hesitant as these residencies tend to favor ~80 percentile STEP 2 scores and they may worry with your previous MCAT history.

OP, I would agree with this. An easy fix would just be to replace neurology for neurosurgery wherever it appears on your application and focus on the nonsurgical interventions neurologists can provide. Neurology is primary care-adjacent and a more achievable ambition whether you go MD or DO. It comes across more humble and offers you similar opportunities to wrap a consistent theme around your activities, which appear to be neurology-friendly.

I can appreciate your confidence but you would be surprised how many high-stat applicants shoot for MD and fall down to their DO options. DO's average matriculant profiles are lower than MD's, but not by so much that the academics would seem self-evidently disqualifying.

Also, it seems there is also a lot more variability: low-tier MD schools are starting to look like the slightly more attractive cousins of top-tier DO schools. Both MD and DO schools have newer options with unknown reputations, which increases yield at longstanding programs and pushes marginal applicants downward toward those newer programs. Downstream, that means rough "working-out-the-kinks" administration + hijinks, poor clinical experiences, a poor match experience, etc. So, it's not just that you've had a rough history, it's that the presence of that history predisposes you to environments that are probably going to exacerbate those issues and make this path harder... so you have to be more strategic. I don't know that going to Walmart SOM is better than going to Touro or something.

In other words, you are looking at this like you don't have a lot more to lose, but I hope I can convince you that you do. DO is not the "last resort." It can always get worse. You could be so blinded by the need to get an MD degree at all costs and go Caribbean, assuming "everyone uses third party materials anyway," and be yet another victim of that borderline-scam trajectory.

Apply DO with your head held high because it would be a major accomplishment... how long have you been at this, now?

After doing this for over 10 years (because I thought just like you), I was finally accepted to an Ivy League MD school and I can tell you from the other side, it was not worth it! You can score a 528 on your MCAT tomorrow and it might not matter, people may see your baggage and think "there are a lot of people without that problem who also have the 528." You have to emancipate yourself from the expectation that your suffering makes you special. Most people suffer for this, even the rich kids.

Success won't feel the way you imagined it, nor does it retroactively legitimize what you had to do to get it. I would have traded this MD success for my 20s back. Chasing this dream has changed my life in ways I can never take back. I'm grateful to be where I am now, but I didn't come away from it scot-free.

Related, I can totally understand how hearing the expectations of this process feels dehumanizing and disconnected from your day-to-day experience, but I promise nobody here is trying to find ways to waste your time. It is expensive and time-consuming to apply, and would be a waste to knowingly reapply falling short of expectations because you hope that the adcoms will waive them given your history. Take it from me: they absolutely will not. They click a button and send a rejection letter and may not even remember your name by lunch. You've got to accommodate what they want vs expecting them to overlook their own standards.

Who knows... if you play your hand well enough, you might surprise yourself with a better result than you could have hoped for. It just doesn't happen without planning, foresight, and earnest effort. You can't just phone it in. You really have to commit yourself to the advice the advisors give and get second, third, fourth opinions. Educate yourself. Do your own research. And, ultimately, do what feels right to you.

Whatever the outcome, you will at least be satisfied that you did your best.

 

[Med Ed]

I’m not convinced the Case Western MSMP fits the definition of a true SMP. It looks like a non-thesis MS program with 26 credit hours spread over 2 years.

Neurosurgery is arguably the most competitive specialty in medicine, but there is little in OP’s academic history to support them blossoming into a top-tier candidate for the match. The risk/reward profile for such applicants is generally not perceived favorably.