Re-applying - need advice

[01923847]

I am a non-traditional applicant looking to re-apply (either this upcoming cycle or the next). I wanted to get some advice on my chances and what additional activities I should engage in to improve my chances.

I am 25 years old (soon to be 26) currently working in public policy at the Institute of Medicine. A brief history of my background:

• Graduated undergrad in 2013 with a B.A. in Public Policy and a minor in Chemistry and Medical Anthropology. cGPA is 3.5 and sGPA is 3.5 (on the lower end for med school - I know)

• I subsequently went graduate school in global health and graduated in 2015 with a 3.8 GPA (which I realize is valued less than undergrad GPA).

• Since graduating my masters program I have been working in global public health in both field based positions (worked in Zanzibar and Nigeria) and policy based positions (with the FDA, CDC, and now the Institute of Medicine).

I have taken the MCAT twice. My first time, I got a 30 (10 on each section). I then had to re-take it since my first score expired. My second time I got a 510.

Here are the schools - and roughly when I applied for each. I did send out the secondaries a bit later that I had hoped. Looking back at this list, I do think I should have cast a much wider net

July

• George Washington
• Tufts
• Albert Einstein
• SLU
• Drexel
• Boston University
• Northwestern
• Columbia

August

• Georgetown
• University of Michigan
• UVU
• Brown
• USC Keck
• University of Maryland

September

• UNC Chapel Hill
• Loyola
• Tulane
• Baylor
• Emory
• Rosalind Franklin
• University of Illinois at Chicago
• Washington University
• Mt. Sinai
• Mayo
• NYU

So here’s where I’m at now. After applying to these schools, I did not receive a single interview invite (most likely because it was a top heavy list of schools). Apart from my on-the-lower end GPA and MCAT, my gut is telling me is another problem in my application is that I don’t have as much clinical experience as most applicants. While I did volunteer extensively at a local hospital in undergrad, I have not done so since leaving. Furthermore, my shadowing experiences are intermittent and relatively short - a total of 300 hours of shadowing. I don’t think my letters of recommendation are a problem, as I personally met with each letter writer to gauge their enthusiasm for writing a letter.

Right now, I am seeking out opportunities to shadow more doctors and plan on taking additional science courses in the Fall. Furthermore, I do plan on applying to DO schools the next time I do apply. I know I’ve got a bit more to overcome than other applicants (having a lower GPA and MCAT), but am pretty committed to getting into medical school.

Beyond GPA repair and getting more clinical experiences, is there anything else I should do? I’d love all the advice I can get. Thanks!

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[Naruhodo]

I think you hit the nail on the head - you need more recent clinical hours. You could consider becoming a CNA, EMT, scribe, etc. but probably the easiest way is through volunteering. I know it can be hard to fit in with a busy schedule (and your work sounds super interesting by the way), but recent clinical exposure is a must however you can manage it. As for shadowing, it is great that you are reaching out and honestly you don't need that many hours - just make sure that some of those hours are spent with primary care providers.

Someone will probably disagree with me here, but I think the list of schools you applied to was reasonable. Yes, the earlier the better and it does suck to be a reapplicant at schools (been there myself). However, both the schools I received interviews to this cycle were schools where I was a reapplicant. Also, my undergrad sGPA was a tad below a 3.5 and my original MCAT was an 30 too. Neither are THAT bad Just make sure you fix what you can (more clinical hours + shadow PCPs) and describe what you'll bring to medicine, which from what you've told us about yourself seems pretty impressive. Good luck!

 

[gamieg]

as you mentioned, your school list is too top-heavy. while you may not be uncompetitive for some of those schools, taking chances with only low-yield and high-stats school is tough even for applicants with higher stats than yours.

if you applied early and received secondaries right away, the secondary turnaround time and submission timeline is also problematic. the generally rule of thumb is turnaround in no more than 1-2 weeks at most, and I recommend 2-3 days. being complete at many schools after august or september slims down your chances.

300 shadowing hours is fine. but what are your other experiences and hours including clinical, nonclinical, work, research etc.? would also recommend getting more opinions on your ps/secondaries.

 

[01923847]

as you mentioned, your school list is too top-heavy. while you may not be uncompetitive for some of those schools, taking chances with only low-yield and high-stats school is tough even for applicants with higher stats than yours.

if you applied early and received secondaries right away, the secondary turnaround time and submission timeline is also problematic. the generally rule of thumb is turnaround in no more than 1-2 weeks at most, and I recommend 2-3 days. being complete at many schools after august or september slims down your chances.

300 shadowing hours is fine. but what are your other experiences and hours including clinical, nonclinical, work, research etc.? would also recommend getting more opinions on your ps/secondaries.

Thanks for the feedback! I'll keep that in mind next time I apply. Here are the other extracurriculars I have under my belt:

During undergrad, I also volunteered at a hospital - about 240 hundred hours. I do have some bench research experience. During the summers in undergrad, I worked in a cancer biology lab (160 hours one summer and 400 hours another summer). I was also a member of a few clubs (public health brigades and roosevelt institute - health policy). Lastly, I TA'd for anatomy lab throughout my senior year.

In grad school, I held did some additional policy research for an non-profit - this was exclusively focused internationally (For this job, I helped identify policy needs that health care start-ups were addressing in developing countries in order to pair them with investors). I was only able to to do this during my first year (460 hours). During my second year, I did some more policy and operational research for another non-profit (evaluating a malaria surveillance system) - 360 hours. After I finished that, I was able to work on more policy research - this time on telemedicine policy in North Carolina - which I presented to the state department of health and human services. I additionally wrote a thesis based on the malaria research I did for the non-profit.

After graduating, I essentially just worked. However, starting this January I have been working at a local homeless shelter helping residents apply and find jobs.

Right now, I do have a publication in the works, which is going through review and is based on the thesis I wrote.

 

[gamieg]

your experiences are pretty solid, but you're a little light on volunteering and clinical exposure. apply day one, tweak your school list (have you considered applying both MD and DO?), get that secondary turnaround time down, and gain some more eyeballs on your writing. good luck!

 

[CyrilFiggis]

If your MCAT timeline allows, take a year off. @gamieg 's suggestions are spot-on, but don't rush the process. Your story is pretty cohesive in terms of what you've done and and the opportunities you've explored. But make sure you're answering the question of "Why Medicine". You've already done extensive work on the health policy side. How and why will a degree in medicine help you achieve your ultimate goal?

 

[Goro]

Add DO schools your list next time. 300 hrs of shadowing is high. Not lethal, just very high.

 

[01923847]

Add DO schools your list next time. 300 hrs of shadowing is high. Not lethal, just very high.

Is there a reason that's considered high? Based on what I've read in other threads here, I thought med schools liked seeing you had clinical exposure

 

[Goro]

There's clinical exposure and then there's clinical exposure.

You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

Shadowing tells you what a doctor's day is like. It doesn't nothing for the above in bold. Yes, you might say hello to patients...but's it's NOT patient contact experience.

Is there a reason that's considered high? Based on what I've read in other threads here, I thought med schools liked seeing you had clinical exposure

 

[Crayola227]

Yeah it's totally different stress and emotion-wise to be called on to give to patients, to experience the frustration of trying to roll them and clean up their feces
To fear that that you're going to get injured when you break their fall, or they get agitated, or to feel your body strain under their weight

Do it again and again until you're tired and a little achey

To do really tedious tasks like wash their dirty laundry (being a doctor is full of tedious tasks that help, but indirectly, I think it's good to experience that and hopefully still derive some fulfillment)

The patience it takes walking a little old person that takes like 15 minutes to go a block, to listen to someone ramble or perseverate
and it's different to talk to someone doing that vs just watching someone else do so

Definitely get some hands on

I did elderly caregiving, I think it's a really good test of what I call your Mother Teresa-like skills, old sick people are the best direct test of your future doctor skills IMHO

 

[Crayola227]

also that population can be the hardest to deal with, I find that doctors respect significant time with them (we know how hard they are) and they seemed impressed on my interviews

people can tell if you love it

don't just do it to check a box, if you hate it seriously rethink things

don't go into medicine just to make your life better, seriously go into it because your appreciation for dealing with the suffering of others is quite high

 

[01923847]

also that population can be the hardest to deal with, I find that doctors respect significant time with them (we know how hard they are) and they seemed impressed on my interviews

people can tell if you love it

don't just do it to check a box, if you hate it seriously rethink things

don't go into medicine just to make your life better, seriously go into it because your appreciation for dealing with the suffering of others is quite high

Well I have been volunteering at a hospice center for the past month and I have done additional hospital volunteering in the past (mostly patient transport) - so I do have clinical experience. I guess my question was more about why 300 hours of shadowing experience is considered high

 

[Crayola227]

Well I have been volunteering at a hospice center for the past month and I have done additional hospital volunteering in the past (mostly patient transport) - so I do have clinical experience. I guess my question was more about why 300 hours of shadowing experience is considered high

@Goro can correct me if I'm wrong, I think the idea is more that you want proportionally just as much if not more, patient contact experience.

It really is easier to watch, than to do, when it comes to dealing with patients.

I remember what it was like watching my parents drive me to school everyday, and the first time *I* had the wheel and took the car to 55 mph on the freeway. It floored me how different that was.

I shadowed a psychiatrist for a really really long time. That was sooooo different than when I was the one interviewing psych patients on rotation.

All docs and adcoms know about this. So shadow hours only do so much. Patient transport - I'm sorry, that almost doesn't count for anything, let alone doc shadowing or substantial patient contact. We know substantial patient contact can be hard to come by, so some of this stuff, just doing it to wrack up hours is showing a commitment to mind-boring acts of altruism, and that's one component of being a doctor and a task you need to show you can maintain as well. This is partly why I argue these "checkbox" activities matter. Being a doctor you are called to excellently checkbox a lot of ridiculous **** and still maintain your sanity.

The next thing, is you need to show you can maintain patient contact, like hospice care, for more than a month. This is because we need to see not only quality and depth of experience with patients, but that you can maintain it over time without losing interest or burning out quickly. Because it gets old fast, actually. You need to work it long enough for it to seem like - well, a job.

When I see a student has been getting straight A's full time in hard science pre-reqs AND spent 10 hours a week doing hospice for a a whole year, THAT is reassuring. They're doing what a med student or resident is expected to do - a lot of paperwork, reading, learning, under the stress of expected mastery, and after a long day of that and being understandably tired, doing a shift interacting with people who are suffering, possibly having to roll up the sleeves and roll a patient to clean up their incontinence when it's hour 14 of the day.

I hope this explains why pre-meds need to
-get excellent grades in sciences including O Chem and labs (mastery of science, duh, memorization, MD/DO candidates come in with the requisite knowledge to fully understand basic science research and MOA of drugs, molecular basis of disease, labs are attention to detail, hands on, you do labs and and procedures in med school and often more in that vein as a doc),
-the focus on grades and test-taking (docs have to be responsible for proving by exam that they hold an enormous body of knowledge in their brains and can apply it problem-solving),
-they need to be good at studying, for the rest of their lives
-they need to show they can maintain 60-80 hour workweeks while excelling at functioning at a high level,
-they need to show altruism without too much burn out from everything I just said, often by continuing volunteer activities
-research is good because even if you're not going to become a researcher ultimately, you are still contributing to the work of PIs in undergrad, and paying similar dues in med school, and all around by recruiting those with research experience the professions continues the tradition of research advancing medicine. Research experience I believe also poises one to better understand research, and no matter what type of doc you become, that is a requisite skill.
-tolerance of what I call the "ick" factor with patients (even in fields with less patient contact, you can't lose your lunch reading about maggots in an open wound, even a radiologist might read that in a note for looking for osteomyelitis on imaging)
-tolerance of "customer service" - basically, you're dealing with people face to face to solve problems. It requires a lot of self control and resilience to deal with people who tend to be not the happiest campers. For the last two things, hospice, elderly/memory care, in-home care, CNA work, gets at some of these things.
-tolerance of bull**** box checking, paperwork, tedious tasks

and maintain all of the above for years

In some ways, what you are asked to do as a undergrad before med school is the best that can be done outside med school to simulate what you will need to do and the skills for success not just in medical school but as a physician. That's why there are so many different things put on the plate - you are jumping a lot of the same hurdles, actually, when you do what adcoms expect on an app.

TLDR
Nothing substitutes what it is to take care of patients directly.

 

[01923847]

@Goro can correct me if I'm wrong, I think the idea is more that you want proportionally just as much if not more, patient contact experience.

It really is easier to watch, than to do, when it comes to dealing with patients.

I remember what it was like watching my parents drive me to school everyday, and the first time *I* had the wheel and took the car to 55 mph on the freeway. It floored me how different that was.

I shadowed a psychiatrist for a really really long time. That was sooooo different than when I was the one interviewing psych patients on rotation.

All docs and adcoms know about this. So shadow hours only do so much. Patient transport - I'm sorry, that almost doesn't count for anything, let alone doc shadowing or substantial patient contact. We know substantial patient contact can be hard to come by, so some of this stuff, just doing it to wrack up hours is showing a commitment to mind-boring acts of altruism, and that's one component of being a doctor and a task you need to show you can maintain as well. This is partly why I argue these "checkbox" activities matter. Being a doctor you are called to excellently checkbox a lot of ridiculous **** and still maintain your sanity.

The next thing, is you need to show you can maintain patient contact, like hospice care, for more than a month. This is because we need to see not only quality and depth of experience with patients, but that you can maintain it over time without losing interest or burning out quickly. Because it gets old fast, actually. You need to work it long enough for it to seem like - well, a job.

When I see a student has been getting straight A's full time in hard science pre-reqs AND spent 10 hours a week doing hospice for a a whole year, THAT is reassuring. They're doing what a med student or resident is expected to do - a lot of paperwork, reading, learning, under the stress of expected mastery, and after a long day of that and being understandably tired, doing a shift interacting with people who are suffering, possibly having to roll up the sleeves and roll a patient to clean up their incontinence when it's hour 14 of the day.

I hope this explains why pre-meds need to
-get excellent grades in sciences including O Chem and labs (mastery of science, duh, memorization, MD/DO candidates come in with the requisite knowledge to fully understand basic science research and MOA of drugs, molecular basis of disease, labs are attention to detail, hands on, you do labs and and procedures in med school and often more in that vein as a doc),
-the focus on grades and test-taking (docs have to be responsible for proving by exam that they hold an enormous body of knowledge in their brains and can apply it problem-solving),
-they need to be good at studying, for the rest of their lives
-they need to show they can maintain 60-80 hour workweeks while excelling at functioning at a high level,
-they need to show altruism without too much burn out from everything I just said, often by continuing volunteer activities
-research is good because even if you're not going to become a researcher ultimately, you are still contributing to the work of PIs in undergrad, and paying similar dues in med school, and all around by recruiting those with research experience the professions continues the tradition of research advancing medicine. Research experience I believe also poises one to better understand research, and no matter what type of doc you become, that is a requisite skill.
-tolerance of what I call the "ick" factor with patients (even in fields with less patient contact, you can't lose your lunch reading about maggots in an open wound, even a radiologist might read that in a note for looking for osteomyelitis on imaging)
-tolerance of "customer service" - basically, you're dealing with people face to face to solve problems. It requires a lot of self control and resilience to deal with people who tend to be not the happiest campers. For the last two things, hospice, elderly/memory care, in-home care, CNA work, gets at some of these things.
-tolerance of bull**** box checking, paperwork, tedious tasks

and maintain all of the above for years

In some ways, what you are asked to do as a undergrad before med school is the best that can be done outside med school to simulate what you will need to do and the skills for success not just in medical school but as a physician. That's why there are so many different things put on the plate - you are jumping a lot of the same hurdles, actually, when you do what adcoms expect on an app.

TLDR
Nothing substitutes what it is to take care of patients directly.

Thanks for the input. That makes sense. I am getting patient exposure through the current hospice center though, so I will be able to speak to that in my personal statement, secondaries, etc. I am logging these experiences, but I was a little curious about if there were any specific questions I should be asking myself to better reflect on them.

Since I am just starting volunteering with Hospice (though I plan to stick with it for the foreseeable future), do you think it would be premature to apply this upcoming cycle? I am also planning on taking science courses during the fall. Out of your experience, how would an admissions committee view this? I realize they want to see results and that I would excel at it, but would merely having it stated that I am enrolled be enough and then submit my grades later? I realize this is probably a pretty subjective question, so I totally understand if someone can't give me a concrete answer.

Thanks again for help everyone

 

[Crayola227]

Thanks for the input. That makes sense. I am getting patient exposure through the current hospice center though, so I will be able to speak to that in my personal statement, secondaries, etc. I am logging these experiences, but I was a little curious about if there were any specific questions I should be asking myself to better reflect on them.

Since I am just starting volunteering with Hospice (though I plan to stick with it for the foreseeable future), do you think it would be premature to apply this upcoming cycle? I am also planning on taking science courses during the fall. Out of your experience, how would an admissions committee view this? I realize they want to see results and that I would excel at it, but would merely having it stated that I am enrolled be enough and then submit my grades later? I realize this is probably a pretty subjective question, so I totally understand if someone can't give me a concrete answer.

Thanks again for help everyone

Service orientation
Social skills
Cultural Competence
Team work
Oral Communications
Ethical Responsibility to Self and Others
Reliability and Dependability
Resilience and Adaptability
Capacity for improvement
Critical thinking
Quantitative Reasoning
Scientific Inquiry
Written Communication
Living Systems
Human Behavior

https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/admissionsinitiative/competencies/

If you don't think you're a great oral communicator, you should consider another field for sure.
If you are not a good descriptive writer can adept at being *concise*, this can also sink you.

before I even had secondaries, when I was months ahead of time crafting a PS (and incidentally doing a final "examination" of myself for medicine) I saw a tip somewhere to take that list, and for each quality rephrase it in terms of what it means to you personally, examples in your life where you applied the principles, examples where you struggled, and tying that all up for why medicine/why you're suitable.

I did this little exercise, and it actually paid off (I only needed to adress 2 or 3 in my PS ultimately) in being great fodder for secondaries. I was able to cut and paste and recraft my own work doing that exercise making everything easier. Sometimes I would combine a few and make it flow or just make an entry longer. It also helped me prepare for interviews and helped my confidence. Helped me answer the dreaded "what are your greatest strengths/weaknesses" questions.

For residency interviews, I reviewed what I had written! Doing that actually helped me with more perspective on my strengths and weaknesses for choosing specialty. To be honest with my past idealist and compare him to the bitter shell I had become in med school. I also googled a list of commonly asked interview questions for residency and my specialty and did the same thing (wrote an answer to each one).

just an idea for how considering @LizzyM 's post and how it can be useful for getting into medical school. She wanted you to use it to see if you should even go to med school (I think). However, I hope that the tangible benefits I described can motivate you guys to do some real introspection as she suggests.

 

[01923847]

@Crayola227 Thanks! This helps a lot

 

[01923847]

Add DO schools your list next time. 300 hrs of shadowing is high. Not lethal, just very high.

Goro, if I were to PM you a list of schools would you have the time/be willing to offer some feedback?

 

[Goro]

Sure

Goro, if I were to PM you a list of schools would you have the time/be willing to offer some feedback?

 

[01923847]

Sure

Thanks, I really appreciate it

 

[01923847]

If your MCAT timeline allows, take a year off. @gamieg 's suggestions are spot-on, but don't rush the process. Your story is pretty cohesive in terms of what you've done and and the opportunities you've explored. But make sure you're answering the question of "Why Medicine". You've already done extensive work on the health policy side. How and why will a degree in medicine help you achieve your ultimate goal?

My MCAT will probably limit the number of schools I could apply to the next cycle (meaning the one after this upcoming one). It would be 3 years old by that point, and I'd ideally not want to limit the schools I apply to due to an old MCAT. I could hold off a year and re-take it, but I work full time and do not think I could realistically prepare well enough to improve my score substantially.

I have started Hospice volunteering and have been volunteering at a homeless shelter (helping residents apply for jobs) for the past month and will continue to do that for the next year. How does that look to a medical school? While I think it would be an improvement to my application, I'm wondering if medical schools would look down upon seeing a clinical experience being so recent to a new application. Id love your thoughts @CyrilFiggis and anyone elses

 

[CyrilFiggis]

My MCAT will probably limit the number of schools I could apply to the next cycle (meaning the one after this upcoming one). It would be 3 years old by that point, and I'd ideally not want to limit the schools I apply to due to an old MCAT. I could hold off a year and re-take it, but I work full time and do not think I could realistically prepare well enough to improve my score substantially.

I have started Hospice volunteering and have been volunteering at a homeless shelter (helping residents apply for jobs) for the past month and will continue to do that for the next year. How does that look to a medical school? While I think it would be an improvement to my application, I'm wondering if medical schools would look down upon seeing a clinical experience being so recent to a new application. Id love your thoughts @CyrilFiggis and anyone elses

When you write about your new clinical experience on your ECs, but thoughtful about why you're doing it. How is the experience different from what you've done before? Are there similarities in geriatric/palliative/EoL care compared to your work in global health?