reading this makes me really sad...

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Well it is easy to get accepted into a pharmacy school nowadays. That is just the reality.

I think the average undergrad GPA for my class was 3.55 and everyone had a degree except for one student.

Now? 2.6 GPA and a financial aid letter and you have a decent shot to get accepted. That is just the reality.

Why would anybody go into pharmacy nowadays?

And yes, it was my fault that everybody knows how pathetic it is.
 
Last edited:
ACPE should be publishing the breakout for GPA/PCAT yearly for every school. Why don't they?
 
The way grades are now calculated is also a joke. The PharmCAS let you retake classes you have passed and calculate the average between two grades. For example if you received a C in organic chemistry at a university and then an A at a community college, then your grade for organic chemistry is a B.
 
BMBiology said:
The way grades are now calculated is also a joke. The PharmCAS let you retake classes you have passed and calculate the average between two grades. For example if you received a C in organic chemistry at a university and then an A at a community college, then your grade for organic chemistry is a B.
Click to expand...

Eh, I would argue the grading system in the US is ridiculous in general. Why should you be penalized for having retaken a subject? If you retake a subject you failed and score in the top 99%, why shouldn't your gained knowledge be reflected, not your past failures? I would argue that someone with the tenacity to overcome failure is a better human being than someone who is really good at filling out little bubbles on a multiple choice test and regurgitating facts like a parrot.
 
It is easier to get a better grade the second time around especially when you take it at somewhere that is less competitive. I understand if the person failed but this is just a way for people to inflate their grades.

That is not how the world works. Decisions have consequences. If you made an error and someone get hurts, there is no reset button
 
BMBiology said:
It is easier to get a better grade the second time around especially when you take it at somewhere that is less competitive. I understand if the person failed but this is just a way for people to inflate their grades.

That is not how the world works. Decisions have consequences. If you made an error and someone get hurts, there is no reset button
Click to expand...

Good thing they used this rule stick when Einstein failed math... oh wait, they didn't. He redid the classes and went on to be one of the most brilliant minds in history.
 
I personally don't see a problem with admitting everyone and anyone who applies to whatever program it may be.

Don't water down the courses. By the second semester everyone who wasn't prepared will have failed out.

Problem solved.
 
jafx said:
Good thing they used this rule stick when Einstein failed math... oh wait, they didn't. He redid the classes and went on to be one of the most brilliant minds in history.
Click to expand...

What you just said has no practical value.
 
jafx said:
I personally don't see a problem with admitting everyone and anyone who applies to whatever program it may be.

Don't water down the courses. By the second semester everyone who wasn't prepared will have failed out.

Problem solved.
Click to expand...

And who is going to be stuck with the student loan bill? Obviously they won't be able to pay it off if they had failed.
 
BMBiology said:
And who is going to be stuck with the student loan bill? Obviously they won't be able to pay it off if they had failed.
Click to expand...

I also don't believe in government backed student loans or unregulated tuition prices. The American education system is a broken joke. Tuition rises with availability of loan funds, wages do not follow. It's madness.
 
jonnythan said:
I hate to jump in here, but... Einstein didn't fail math.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it by 30 minutes.

I think the problem is getting everyone on the same page to agree with limitations on who gets accredited and who gets admitted. The rubric for who gets in varies so wildly that there is no set precedent, and since it's easy to get accredited as a school. I really think residencies are the way to go forward. If a residency is required, then a lot of these new schools with weak programs won't be able to get there students the residencies they need to be able to practice.
 
DruggieDoRight said:
You beat me to it by 30 minutes.

I think the problem is getting everyone on the same page to agree with limitations on who gets accredited and who gets admitted. The rubric for who gets in varies so wildly that there is no set precedent, and since it's easy to get accredited as a school. I really think residencies are the way to go forward. If a residency is required, then a lot of these new schools with weak programs won't be able to get there students the residencies they need to be able to practice.
Click to expand...

Eh... more students will = more residencies. And then where do all the residency trained pharmD's go? There are only so many spots for this type of training...
 
fauxden said:
Eh... more students will = more residencies. And then where do all the residency trained pharmD's go? There are only so many spots for this type of training...
Click to expand...

You're right its going to create a two tiered system. In fact, as far as residencies are concerned, retail chains are getting in on the action creating community residency programs. These programs are going to create a two tiered system that will probably push a lot of the old guard out and keep some of the newer schools from jumping in on the action.
 
jafx said:
Eh, I would argue the grading system in the US is ridiculous in general. Why should you be penalized for having retaken a subject? If you retake a subject you failed and score in the top 99%, why shouldn't your gained knowledge be reflected, not your past failures? I would argue that someone with the tenacity to overcome failure is a better human being than someone who is really good at filling out little bubbles on a multiple choice test and regurgitating facts like a parrot.
Click to expand...

As far as signaling goes, the 1st attempt matters for a number of reasons including the 2nd time is usually easier. Pre-reqs aren't just looked at to see a student has certain knowledge coming in- they are used as a reflection of abilities.
 
DruggieDoRight said:
You beat me to it by 30 minutes.

I think the problem is getting everyone on the same page to agree with limitations on who gets accredited and who gets admitted. The rubric for who gets in varies so wildly that there is no set precedent, and since it's easy to get accredited as a school. I really think residencies are the way to go forward. If a residency is required, then a lot of these new schools with weak programs won't be able to get there students the residencies they need to be able to practice.
Click to expand...


they might create new "in-house" residencies for themselves 🙂
 
DruggieDoRight said:
You're right its going to create a two tiered system. In fact, as far as residencies are concerned, retail chains are getting in on the action creating community residency programs. These programs are going to create a two tiered system that will probably push a lot of the old guard out and keep some of the newer schools from jumping in on the action.
Click to expand...


Great idea for chains. 2 or 3 years community residency programs with no guarantee of job afterwards. Residents get paid how much 45000 vs 120000 a year for a staff pharmacist. A real money maker for them. Can staff stores with 2 residents for say 90K.
 
Old said:
Great idea for chains. 2 or 3 years community residency programs with no guarantee of job afterwards. Residents get paid how much 45000 vs 120000 a year for a staff pharmacist. A real money maker for them. Can staff stores with 2 residents for say 90K.
Click to expand...

Jeeze, at those rates we can afford to lay off some of the older pharmacists because these new guys won't know what they're worth!
 
DruggieDoRight said:
DeVry PGY1 hospital residency at DeVry Univeristy Hospital, where people with more money than sense get treated for diseases they don't have!
Click to expand...

I agree. But the point is their students will obtain some residencies regardless what kinds...
 
Old said:
Great idea for chains. 2 or 3 years community residency programs with no guarantee of job afterwards. Residents get paid how much 45000 vs 120000 a year for a staff pharmacist. A real money maker for them. Can staff stores with 2 residents for say 90K.
Click to expand...

exactly. Everyone wins except the pharmacy students / pharmacists 🙂
 
BMBiology said:
The way grades are now calculated is also a joke. The PharmCAS let you retake classes you have passed and calculate the average between two grades. For example if you received a C in organic chemistry at a university and then an A at a community college, then your grade for organic chemistry is a B.
Click to expand...

How else would you propose that these re-takes be factored into GPA calculations?

There only seems to be three options:
- Calculate an average between the two grades
- Use only the higher grade
- Use only the most recent grade (which may not be the higher grade)

Ignoring the re-take isn't an option...but noting in the applicant file that a re-take was necessary is an option.
 
Several comments...

I think chains are using these residencies as the first step to train supervisors. They can't be used to replace other pharmacists as ASHP states that residents cannot be essential to daily activities. Not saying that doesn't happen everywhere, but you can't make it too obvious.

Second, I agree we cannot ignore a retake, and I think that the PharmCAS calculation method is plenty fair. How you did the first time through a class (esp a required one) is important. We could also report both and then only use the second for calculation. I think it is important that we not use the higher as it would encourage people to retake B's to try to make A's but would allow them to give up (withdrawal) if they see that they won't be able to do that.
 
I don't know why we are talking about the PharmCAS method in the first place. Every school I applied to had their own formula for determining the relevant GPA. Schools are not compelled to use the PharmCAS determined GPA.
 
owlegrad said:
I don't know why we are talking about the PharmCAS method in the first place. Every school I applied to had their own formula for determining the relevant GPA. Schools are not compelled to use the PharmCAS determined GPA.
Click to expand...

Schools may take these repeat grades into consideration but by using the PharmCAS GPA, it makes them look better on the class profile report that is published every year. It gives people the illusion that they have a higher standards.
 
297point1 said:
How else would you propose that these re-takes be factored into GPA calculations?

There only seems to be three options:
- Calculate an average between the two grades
- Use only the higher grade
- Use only the most recent grade (which may not be the higher grade)

Ignoring the re-take isn't an option...but noting in the applicant file that a re-take was necessary is an option.
Click to expand...

I propose: (1) do not count repeated grades on classes that they have passed; (2) on classes they have failed, take an average of the two grades. So the highest grade they can get is 2.5, assuming they received a D and then an A on the second try.

This prevents people from inflating their grades by retaking classes they have already passed.
 
What does it matter, in regard to retaking classes? You can get into a pharmacy school easy-peasy these days.... it's a moot point.
 
BMBiology said:
I propose: (1) do not count repeated grades on classes that they have passed; (2) on classes they have failed, take an average of the two grades. So the highest grade they can get is 2.5, assuming they received a D and then an A on the second try.

This prevents people from inflating their grades by retaking classes they have already passed.
Click to expand...

That actually seems very reasonable.
 
It sounds reasonable until you think about a student who is on the verge of failing a class. This student will be forced with deciding to:

1) Intentionally fail so they can retake it and get an A
2) Do as well as they can and take the D, knowing that a retake wouldn't help their GPA.

You shouldn't set up a system that at any point penalizes success or discourages effort./
 
Well, I know very little about the American system, but the system here seems work very well and produce good doctors/pharmacists. If you fail more than a certain number of classes (as determined by each school,) you are dismissed permanently from the program. You can retake a class and the new grade is what will be reflected on your records. Regardless, after a certain number of failures you will be dismissed. You have a slight chance of being picked up by another school, but there aren't many other schools to go to. Bit of a different world here.

It is kind of a double edged sword. You can get the pretty academic record, but the school doesn't actually forget your failures. Too many and you disappear from the program forever.

I like it, but I'm sure many people in the States would hate it.
 
jonnythan said:
It sounds reasonable until you think about a student who is on the verge of failing a class. This student will be forced with deciding to:

1) Intentionally fail so they can retake it and get an A
2) Do as well as they can and take the D, knowing that a retake wouldn't help their GPA.

You shouldn't set up a system that at any point penalizes success or discourages effort./
Click to expand...

At what school is a D not failing?
 
KidPharmD said:
Several comments...

I think chains are using these residencies as the first step to train supervisors. They can't be used to replace other pharmacists as ASHP states that residents cannot be essential to daily activities. Not saying that doesn't happen everywhere, but you can't make it too obvious.

Second, I agree we cannot ignore a retake, and I think that the PharmCAS calculation method is plenty fair. How you did the first time through a class (esp a required one) is important. We could also report both and then only use the second for calculation. I think it is important that we not use the higher as it would encourage people to retake B's to try to make A's but would allow them to give up (withdrawal) if they see that they won't be able to do that.
Click to expand...

First - I don't think chains are using these residencies to train field supervisors. Chains understand why graduates even consider residencies. If a graduate was interested in the business of a chain pharmacy, they should understand the value of managing a store before they could manage multiple stores. If by supervisor you meant a pharmacy manager/PIC there might be some value. I think chains are still waiting and watching on the potential for expanded scope of pharmacists and by that I mean many things. One of the large unknowns is MTM in Part D guidelines, remember the initial purposed changes for 2015 for MTM eligibility (before they were scratched)? Would have led to a 4 fold increase in the amount of people needing CMR's and quarterly TMRs. It would be stupid IMO for chains NOT to monitor these things. Rapid increased demand creates rapid new opportunities to be the first to market. Chains are actually in a great position to help big time payers in satisfying their needs. A quick/cheap way to fill a bunch of holes in an unmet demand? Fill them with 1/3 price pharmacists that actually were looking to do things like sitting in a room and waiting for patients to not show up - oops I mean CMRs.

Second - Correct, residents cannot be "essential" to daily activities. Define essential. Place a resident in your high volume store that require 2+ pharmacists. The resident isn't essential to any activities - them not being there would hurt the business by not meeting the expectations of the customer - but the 24 hr 1000+ rx/day pharmacy can still perform "essential" daily activities with 1 pharmacist and 0 technicians.
 
owlegrad said:
At what school is a D not failing?
Click to expand...
I believe the policy was "you need a C or higher to advance." If it's a class that isn't part of your major, and just filling up your core credits (possibly the basket-weaving sort) a D would suffice. Which is funny, because how would you get a poor grade in one of those classes anyhow?
 
Ackj said:
I believe the policy was "you need a C or higher to advance." If it's a class that isn't part of your major, and just filling up your core credits (possibly the basket-weaving sort) a D would suffice. Which is funny, because how would you get a poor grade in one of those classes anyhow?
Click to expand...


How ?? Lacking off, being idiot, lazy, family matters, accidents, etc.
 
breaking news...



KidPharmD said:
You assume that no one is actually doing anything to address these problems. I believe there are (In fact, I could name names if I needed to). It is unlikely that influential people in APhA, ASHP, ACCP, or ACPE are a part of this forum as it is primarily geared toward students. Secondly, it would be unlikely that anyone doing anything would be likely to announce it here as it would certainly break anonymity. You, yourself are very careful about not saying things that might allow you to be identified. Finally, anything that could be done is fought against in one way or another by those for-profit/money driven schools that are looking to make some money off pharmacy students, and then will cancel the program when it is no longer profitable.
Click to expand...


I was wrong... someone did something about this... 👍👍

but read this below (I repost here)




[QUOTE = "HobbitJane, post: 15325463, member: 534777"]Due to my current feelings of uncertainty regarding pharmacy school, I decided to reach out to the ACPE for assistance. Below you will find the director's response and my original email. I have been calling hospitals in a 75-mile radius surrounding the pharmacy school I will attend in the fall. I have been told that many hospitals are no longer hiring pharmacy interns. At this point, I am wondering if pharmacy students should look into writing their congressmen, the Secretary of Education (Arne Duncan), and maybe a media source (20/20) about the oversaturation issue. Any ideas or comments are welcomed. I figure that without work experience as a pharmacy intern, I will not be able to get a residency and hospital position. If prospects are this dim, I might as well leave because I currently do not know anyone on the inside. I'm tired of walking in a perpetual state of indecisiveness and depression about my future.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear XXXXX(me):

Your email to csinfo was forwarded to me for a response.

You raise some very thought-provoking points in your email. I am sorry you feel so down about the profession as you become a first year student. Truly, you might want to reconsider the profession given your feelings as expressed in your email.

Indeed the number of graduates has grown, as have the number of schools, as have the sizes of the classes. ACPE has no control of any of these things, only that the programs that are offered meet the ACPE accreditation standards that ensure quality pharmacy education. If enrollment grow, then all resources necessary to support those enrollments are expected. It would be a violation of antitrust laws for ACPE to limit any of the things you suggest should be done. Our economy operators on a free market system and such centralized controls are not allowed. It is true that in the past a degree in pharmacy and the licensure that followed to practice pharmacy offered almost any graduate a position; such is not that case and positions will go those most qualified, as defined now by a variety of factors.

Best regards,

Greg B.

J. Gregory Boyer, Ph.D.
Assistant Executive Director &
Director, Professional Degree Program Accreditation
Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education
135 South LaSalle Street, Suite 4100
Chicago, IL 60603-4810
[email protected]
312-664-3575 (office)
312-664-4652 (fax)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXX (me)
Sent: XXXXX
To: csinfo
Subject: Petition for change


As an incoming first year pharmacy student, my heart is heavy with grief and regret. Over the last eight years I have sacrificed a lot of the teenage and college experience in pursuit of being admitted into pharmacy school. The one thing that motivated me to work hard towards graduating with a 4.0, forgoing sleep and socialization, was my dream of having a stable job where I could help others.

After taking my entrance exam (PCAT), writing a series of essays for applications and preparing for interviews, I discovered that the field of pharmacy is saturated and slowly dying.

Even with work, pharmacy students have to take out unsubsidized loans of over $160,000 to fund their education. Upon graduating, these students must compete amongst each other and former unemployed students for non-existent jobs. Imagine trying to pay off $160,000 in student loans and interest on a minimum-wage salary after obtaining a doctoral degree. At this point these students become slaves to their loans and enter a state of severe depression.

Educational institutions are opening schools that are not needed and accepting sub-par students into their programs. These greedy pharmacy schools push a false narrative to the public without telling people the truth about the horrible state of pharmacy. In order to save pharmacy I believe strict changes are needed.

The federal government and pharmacy associations should:

  1. Prohibit the opening of pharmacy schools for at least 50 years
  2. Reduce class sizes by 50% to allow the market to stabilize
Pharmacy schools should require ALL candidates who are applying to have the following:

  1. A bachelor’s degree from an accredited American university including all pharmacy prerequisites with a grade of at least a B (3.0)
  2. A PCAT composite score of at least 85
  3. One year/200 hours of pharmacy experience
  4. A history of volunteer work and community service
The strict guidelines will ensure that only the most skilled and dedicated students enter this field, while alleviating issues of saturation. Please make changes to the current system. The United States needs to operate in a sustainable and ethical manner instead of endless cycles of speculation and financial crisis.

Sincerely,

XXXXX (me)

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...rning-out-too-many-grads/stories/201310270094

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/[/ QUOTE]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/recent-response-from-the-acpe-leave-pharmacy.1077650/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/tell-me-you-do-not-feel-ashamed.1076341/#post-15325270
 
the thing is, is our economy truly operating on free market system ??

look at the stock market lol 🙂




oldstock said:
breaking news...






I was wrong... someone did something about this... 👍👍

but read this below (I repost here)




[QUOTE = "HobbitJane, post: 15325463, member: 534777"]Due to my current feelings of uncertainty regarding pharmacy school, I decided to reach out to the ACPE for assistance. Below you will find the director's response and my original email. I have been calling hospitals in a 75-mile radius surrounding the pharmacy school I will attend in the fall. I have been told that many hospitals are no longer hiring pharmacy interns. At this point, I am wondering if pharmacy students should look into writing their congressmen, the Secretary of Education (Arne Duncan), and maybe a media source (20/20) about the oversaturation issue. Any ideas or comments are welcomed. I figure that without work experience as a pharmacy intern, I will not be able to get a residency and hospital position. If prospects are this dim, I might as well leave because I currently do not know anyone on the inside. I'm tired of walking in a perpetual state of indecisiveness and depression about my future.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear XXXXX(me):

Your email to csinfo was forwarded to me for a response.

You raise some very thought-provoking points in your email. I am sorry you feel so down about the profession as you become a first year student. Truly, you might want to reconsider the profession given your feelings as expressed in your email.

Indeed the number of graduates has grown, as have the number of schools, as have the sizes of the classes. ACPE has no control of any of these things, only that the programs that are offered meet the ACPE accreditation standards that ensure quality pharmacy education. If enrollment grow, then all resources necessary to support those enrollments are expected. It would be a violation of antitrust laws for ACPE to limit any of the things you suggest should be done. Our economy operators on a free market system and such centralized controls are not allowed. It is true that in the past a degree in pharmacy and the licensure that followed to practice pharmacy offered almost any graduate a position; such is not that case and positions will go those most qualified, as defined now by a variety of factors.

Best regards,

Greg B.

J. Gregory Boyer, Ph.D.
Assistant Executive Director &
Director, Professional Degree Program Accreditation
Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education
135 South LaSalle Street, Suite 4100
Chicago, IL 60603-4810
[email protected]
312-664-3575 (office)
312-664-4652 (fax)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXX (me)
Sent: XXXXX
To: csinfo
Subject: Petition for change


As an incoming first year pharmacy student, my heart is heavy with grief and regret. Over the last eight years I have sacrificed a lot of the teenage and college experience in pursuit of being admitted into pharmacy school. The one thing that motivated me to work hard towards graduating with a 4.0, forgoing sleep and socialization, was my dream of having a stable job where I could help others.

After taking my entrance exam (PCAT), writing a series of essays for applications and preparing for interviews, I discovered that the field of pharmacy is saturated and slowly dying.

Even with work, pharmacy students have to take out unsubsidized loans of over $160,000 to fund their education. Upon graduating, these students must compete amongst each other and former unemployed students for non-existent jobs. Imagine trying to pay off $160,000 in student loans and interest on a minimum-wage salary after obtaining a doctoral degree. At this point these students become slaves to their loans and enter a state of severe depression.

Educational institutions are opening schools that are not needed and accepting sub-par students into their programs. These greedy pharmacy schools push a false narrative to the public without telling people the truth about the horrible state of pharmacy. In order to save pharmacy I believe strict changes are needed.

The federal government and pharmacy associations should:

  1. Prohibit the opening of pharmacy schools for at least 50 years
  2. Reduce class sizes by 50% to allow the market to stabilize
Pharmacy schools should require ALL candidates who are applying to have the following:

  1. A bachelor’s degree from an accredited American university including all pharmacy prerequisites with a grade of at least a B (3.0)
  2. A PCAT composite score of at least 85
  3. One year/200 hours of pharmacy experience
  4. A history of volunteer work and community service
The strict guidelines will ensure that only the most skilled and dedicated students enter this field, while alleviating issues of saturation. Please make changes to the current system. The United States needs to operate in a sustainable and ethical manner instead of endless cycles of speculation and financial crisis.

Sincerely,

XXXXX (me)

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...rning-out-too-many-grads/stories/201310270094

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/[/ QUOTE]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/recent-response-from-the-acpe-leave-pharmacy.1077650/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/tell-me-you-do-not-feel-ashamed.1076341/#post-15325270
Click to expand...
 
oldstock said:
the thing is, is our economy truly operating on free market system ??

look at the stock market lol 🙂
Click to expand...

dead silent.........

obviously this is only breaking news for pre-pharmacy lol 🙂
 
I scored 99% on PCAT bitches

And predicted this a decade ago. But I repeat myself

Wisdom to see it before it happens. Even better to act on it

Enough middle of the night posting
 
wow wut is this ppl can take classes at community college and get accepted to pharm school i thought this was a professional degree not a continuation of another associates degree
 
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