Real advice from practicing physicians?

[oltrepo]

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My interest in the attitudes and feelings of physicians about the realities of a life in medicine are of particular importance to me because as a 30 year old person considering going to medical school next year I am wrestling with a lot of doubt about following this path. I am a PhD student in nutritional biochemistry and have an equal love of the investigative process in science and the autonomy of being in the lab. However I have been drawn to medicine since childhood and often feel as if it has chosen me and is something I can not ignore. I have been around hospitals for many years through work and school and have vividly seen the archaic work that medicine brings. However I am ever curious about how doctors really feel about their chosen paths. I am a little concerned about the prevailing attitudes of physician about poor quality of life and career changers within medicine. I cannot afford to make that mistake and so I am trying to talk to as many physicians as possible.

Losing my personal life is the one aspect about medicine that will likely bring me the most regret. If anyone has read Singular Initimacies by Dr. Ofri you will understand what I am referring to about the difficult choice that physicians have to make when it comes to the well being of their patients versus their personal lives. It is truly a calling for some and this can without question become a curse. Good Doctors should worry about their patients, I will be the docotor lying in bed worrying and thinking about the stories of my patients. I am afraid this will take its toll. I don't think expressing this diminishes my desire to help others or practice medicine, it more than likely is underscoring the awareness of my happiness that came with age. I sometimes adopt a very practical way of looking at a career through earning potential and status. Although in the end I recognize the flaw in this, this still another reason for my indecisiveness. Alternativly I would continue with my PhD in clinical nutrition and ultimately becoming an educator/writer and nutritional counselor. However until I shake these demons telling me that medicine is my calling and how it will give the most intellectual freedom and ability to impact the lives of people I will continue to be undecided.

Any words or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Retro]

Academic medicine is a trend that many M.D. are opting for but sometimes did not quite have the training to excel at. The life-style is very good since you will have your own lab and hence only limited clinical responsibilities. However, earnings are quite low in comparison to a practicing physician. Your clinical responsibilities are typically one week per month at the most. But you have to write a lot of grants and spend sometime manage your labs.

The whole fear of a poor lifestyle is over-aggregated... With any jobs, you have to wake up at 7 am; as an attending physician, you only have to wake up at 5-6 am (one or two hours of difference). With a regular job, you get home at 5 pm and watch TV like a couch-potato until dinner time around 7 or 8; as a physician, you get off work at 7 or 8 but dines at a great resturant. If you don't like to be on calls, pick a specialty that does not require on-call duties like ER. It is a matter of leading a life of mediocrity versus a life of excellency at the expense of a few hours of sleep, which you will get use to in a matter of weeks. Unless, of course, if surgery is your calling...

At your age of 30 (I assume you are thinking about applying next year), the question should be: "Do I have enough will-power to pick up that MCAT book and study for it, and do I have to will-power to give up this easy life as a grad student and start doing some serious studying to achieve a goal that may take years to accomplish." A lot of people will tell you bad things about medicine, and sometimes paying too much attention to those negative aspects of medicine is really an effort to give yourself excuses to continue the current life of ease. The bottom-line is: do you have the will-power to get above 30 on the MCAT and go through this random process of applying?

By the way, just for your info, your Ph.D. student status will hurt your chance of admission if your Ph.D. is not already completed. So make sure that you are done with grad school before applying for med school.

 

[vikary]

So not pursuing medicine will commit oneself to a life of mediocrity? If this is what you meant retro, than I feel sorry for you!!!

 

[oltrepo]

Retro thank you for the advice, but I have already taken the MCAT (36 overall) and my academics or ability to compete with other applicants is already clear based on the advice from the admissions commitee at the medical school where I am currently doing research. Getting in is not what worries me.

I am sorry you think doctorate research in basic science is anything but challenging and hard work. I am in the lab seven days a week and take electives that even med students could not qualify to take.


I disagree with your comment about completing my PhD. Although this may apply to some schools, I would not make a gross generalization about applying before completing a doctorate.

It is the emotional and intimate burden of medicine that I am eager to explore, not fine dining or living, as you put it,a mediocre life. Sorry but I find your logic a bit flawed.

 

[Retro]

Originally posted by vikary
So not pursuing medicine will commit oneself to a life of mediocrity? If this is what you meant retro, than I feel sorry for you!!!

Then please, continue your great life in doing whatever you are currently doing. Why even bother applying to medical school and be a part of this Pre-med forum??

I may be wrong in over-generalizing about other professions, but I am certianly not afraid to say what I believe in, and at least I am not a hypocrite!

 

[superdevil]

oltrepo, perhaps i read your post too hastily, but it seems as though you've thought about the sacrifices/lifestyle of a physician more than enough to feel secure in your decision to enter medicine. i'm sure you've taken difficult grad classes, which will enable you to excel while in medical school. you also have a PhD and a 36 MCAT going for you, so getting in won't be the death rattle for you that it is for some of us. in a way, your post sounds like you're asking a bunch of amputees how to deal with athlete's foot!

it sounds like you're quite prepared. i'm sure you'll do just fine. 😉

 

[roja]

Well, I went, and have known several people who were non-traditionals.

Are there sacrifices in medicine? sure. Is it as dramatic as many seem to make it out? Doesn't ave to be. yes, you can let it suck up the entirety of your life. But it doesn't have to. I was single, had a great time for a while, went out lots, did all sorts of stuff in medical school. I taught for TPR all during medical school.

I got married and had a kid. Was I AOA? hell no. But I got my first choice in residency.

I choose a field of medicine that I happen to love and that also has a decent lifestyle. Even internship isn't to bad.

Medicine is what you make it. Its a fantastic field. You are obviously smart enough to do fine.

The trend in medicine is not to live/die/breath/**** your career. It makes crappy doctors who hate what they do.

Your career in medicine will be what you make it. Yes, you will have some sacrifices. And some of it will suck. But you do not, and in my opinion should not, even come close to sacrificing everything.

 

[vikary]

I agree with Oltrepo, retro you are entitled to your opinion. However, that condescending attitude gives physicians a bad name. If everybody adopted that attitude, there would be a lot of unhappy people going into the field for the purpose that they could be perceived as living "a life of excellence." It is unfortunate that there are few doctors out there like you who feel they are superior because of their title. I know quite a few doctors who would disagree that the physician's life is a life of excellence. I would hope that there will only be a few times in my life that I run into doctors like you.

 

[Retro]

Originally posted by vikary
I agree with Oltrepo, retro you are entitled to your opinion. However, that condescending attitude gives physicians a bad name. If everybody adopted that attitude, there would be a lot of unhappy people going into the field for the purpose that they could be perceived as living "a life of excellence." It is unfortunate that there are few doctors out there like you who feel they are superior because of their title. I know quite a few doctors who would disagree that the physician's life is a life of excellence. I would hope that there will only be a few times in my life that I run into doctors like you.

Good for you, Vikary (or maybe, Boy Scout of America?)...

But do save your rhetoric for the interviewers if you happened to have any, and make sure you tell the interviewing physicians that "your life is an excellent life of greed and arrogance, and I, on the other hand, will lead a life of kindness and self-less altruism when I become a doctor". That not only will get you into med school, it will also win you Miss America Pageant! Your hypocrisy is making me sick.

And by the way, I didn't initiate this fight, it was your "just and altruistic" character that initiated this. Try to look at yourself before pointing fingers at others.

Sure... "my condescending attitude gives physicians a bad name", but how does that concern you in anyway? You are entitled to that comment only if you are a physician yourself, not some doc wannabe.

Btw, try to pass your physics class first before judging me as a bad physician... pitiful!

 

[DrBodacious]

🙄 How did oltrepo's post get turned in to this??

Anyway, with regards to the OP, I agree with roja's post, although I'm just a college senior. You can make what you want out of a career in medicine. Unless you are totally dedicated you might not make AOA and be a "super doctor", but I think you can can still make an extremely valuable contribution to society without sacrificing your entire livelyhood.

You just have to try the best you can to look into the future and realize whether you will be happy, or feel satisfyied, or accomplish whatever else you use to define what it takes to be a success (what I'm trying to sayis that happiness does not equal success for everyone) in a medical career, or whether you would find what you want in clinical nutrition, or something else. If you feel you want to have the burdens and rewards that come along with trying to save peoples lives moreso than have extra time to do other things that you love, medicine is probably what you want to pursue.

I think this is what retro tryed to say but came off as arrogant: that medicine can offer you the opportunity to save peoples lives etc. so it is percieved as a better use of ones life by many. Once we dedicate 8+ years of post-grad training to become a physician, we undoubtedly earn ourselves respect, but lets try not to have a chip on our shoulders, doctors can have a rap for being arrogent as well as being respected. I wish there was something else out there that I want to do as badly as I want to be a doctor... life might be simpler.

 

[Retro]

Very well said, Dr. Bodacious, sorry that I came off a little arrogant, which was unintentional... The med school finals are getting on my nerves a little bit... 🙂

 

[PimplePopperMD]

Here's another perspective from someone out of med school:

Your concerns of the field of medicine being all-encompassing are valid. Medical school will take a lot of time, and residency will take a lot of time. There is no question of that. Depending on the field you choose, and the career path you take, you can shape a job to what you'd like. However, that's a minimum of seven years later, after school/residency.

If you are the type to lie in bed worrying about patients, I believe that will make you a better doctor. If you believe it will hamper your life because you'll be too worried, I am willing to bet that you will be attracted to a non-primary-care specialty, such as emergency medicine, radiology, derm, path, where you don't develop the type of relationships with patients which will keep you up at night (though you still will have those nights second guessing yourself).

I find this career to be intensely gratifying at times, frustrating at times, and emotional at times. It is a career that I will always be pushed to learn, to read, and will always be pushed to be better at what I do, because people rely on that. As a first year resident, it is also all-encompassing, and I have little time to spend outside the hospital (though the 80 hour max per week rule has helped considerably!) The poster who spoke of academic medicine was misinformed, but I won't go into that as well...

Your question is obviously a different question than most premeds: not "can I get in" but "should I get in?"... Feel free to PM me if you'd like...

 

[GeneT]

Originally posted by superdevil
oltrepo, perhaps i read your post too hastily, but it seems as though you've thought about the sacrifices/lifestyle of a physician more than enough to feel secure in your decision to enter medicine. i'm sure you've taken difficult grad classes, which will enable you to excel while in medical school. you also have a PhD and a 36 MCAT going for you, so getting in won't be the death rattle for you that it is for some of us. in a way, your post sounds like you're asking a bunch of amputees how to deal with athlete's foot!

Oltrepo, after reading all the posts, I have to agree with Superdevil. This is a premed forum, and I am applying to med school this year also, and all of us are having a hard time trying to shake off the fear that we will never get in this year around. It makes people mad when reading patronizing posts such as yours. If you seek real opinion from a doctor, why not post your post on the Allopathetic threads instead of the preallo thread. It is great that you have all these things going for you, and scored 36 on your MCAT, but I am sorry this is like trying to tell us that you are better than all of us, and therefore, you are staying one level upon us and hence not at all worrying about the application process. I am currently a grad student, too, and I don't think I am half as pompous as you... Congradulations on your imminent acceptance to any med school you want... but please keep in mind that there are thousand of us who are begging to just get in somewhere and not having the luxuary of your high thoughts!

 

[DrBodacious]

Originally posted by GeneT
Oltrepo, after reading all the posts, I have to agree with Superdevil. This is a premed forum, and I am applying to med school this year also, and all of us are having a hard time trying to shake off the fear that we will never get in this year around. It makes people mad when reading patronizing posts such as yours. If you seek real opinion from a doctor, why not post your post on the Allopathetic threads instead of the preallo thread. It is great that you have all these things going for you, and scored 36 on your MCAT, but I am sorry this is like trying to tell us that you are better than all of us, and therefore, you are staying one level upon us and hence not at all worrying about the application process. I am currently a grad student, too, and I don't think I am half as pompous as you... Congradulations on your imminent acceptance to any med school you want... but please keep in mind that there are thousand of us who are begging to just get in somewhere and not having the luxuary of your high thoughts!

Err, I'd have to disagree. If you feel insecure reading someone's post because they are a well qualified pre-med who is more concerned about whether they should go to medical school rather than whehter they can get in, that is your problem. I think that it would benifit the pre-med forum to have discussion about the demands and sacrifices of medicine. Those of us who do have worries about getting in, including myself, need to make sure we have taken the time to think about whether we should become physicians as well.

 

[roja]

Originally posted by Retro
Good for you, Vikary (or maybe, Boy Scout of America?)...

But do save your rhetoric for the interviewers if you happened to have any, and make sure you tell the interviewing physicians that "your life is an excellent life of greed and arrogance, and I, on the other hand, will lead a life of kindness and self-less altruism when I become a doctor". That not only will get you into med school, it will also win you Miss America Pageant! Your hypocrisy is making me sick.

And by the way, I didn't initiate this fight, it was your "just and altruistic" character that initiated this. Try to look at yourself before pointing fingers at others.

Sure... "my condescending attitude gives physicians a bad name", but how does that concern you in anyway? You are entitled to that comment only if you are a physician yourself, not some doc wannabe.

Btw, try to pass your physics class first before judging me as a bad physician... pitiful!

As a physician, I find you attitude disturbing. Your superiority seems to underly a serious inferiority complex. Or the inability to see your own falibility (a serious problem in medicine). And if you are going to tell someone that because they are not currently a physician, that they are not entitled to make comments regarding this, then you are not entitled as well. For while you may be in medical scool, you are not a physician yet.

And altruism, is indeed a trait that many medical schools look for. Its not the only thing, but it is a very important thing. Something you seem to lack.

 

[Retro]

Originally posted by roja
As a physician, I find you attitude disturbing. Your superiority seems to underly a serious inferiority complex. Or the inability to see your own falibility (a serious problem in medicine). And if you are going to tell someone that because they are not currently a physician, that they are not entitled to make comments regarding this, then you are not entitled as well. For while you may be in medical scool, you are not a physician yet.

And altruism, is indeed a trait that many medical schools look for. Its not the only thing, but it is a very important thing. Something you seem to lack.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments, and I hope you are as WONDERFUL in person as you sound on paper. Your presence in this world certainly have brightened the overall human experience. And with that said, I salute you. Conversely, since I am as horrible a person as anyone can be, I will continue on my treacherous lifestyle along the ditches and the rat-holes, and when your graciousful and benevolent presence should shine upon me, remind me not to look at your divine face directly, for I am simply not worthy...

"Let those who have no sins, cast the first stone."

 

[oltrepo]

First I want to thank everyone for writing their opinions for my post. What retro said is true about this being an open forum where anyone's opinion can and should be expressed freely.
I do think it is easy to attack people in this enviornment and to misinterpret what people are saying. However,going out of your way to call someone names like "pompous" when there is not a hint of sarcasm or tones of superiority in my message does seem a little imature and a waste of time. I thought the idea is to post a question that will get responses related to the context of the question and not attacks. I think GeneT is a little bit insecure. As a future physician I hope you never misintepret the "messages" or signals that your patients will ever give you like you did my post. The only correct thing you wrote was that you read my words in haste. I never imagined that a simple question can turn into such a childish argument. More of a reason to thank roja and pimpledoctor for their well thought out answers to my question.

cheers!

I think going to medical school is probably one of the most important decisions anyone can make in life. With the privilge of being an physician comes an emotional and personal price. I am a vicseral person and wanted to gauge the feelings of working physicians about that price. That being said, I am likely in the wrong forum, however, these are questions that student can also appreciate and obviously have strong opinions about even if they have nothing to do with my question.


Good luck to retro and others who are in the throws of final exams.

 

[GeneT]

Originally posted by DrBodacious
Err, I'd have to disagree. If you feel insecure reading someone's post because they are a well qualified pre-med who is more concerned about whether they should go to medical school rather than whehter they can get in, that is your problem. I think that it would benifit the pre-med forum to have discussion about the demands and sacrifices of medicine. Those of us who do have worries about getting in, including myself, need to make sure we have taken the time to think about whether we should become physicians as well.

It just occurred to me and sometimes I even wonder myself.... MCAT 36, Ph.D., etc.... If something is too good to be true, it is probably not true... Maybe I should stop believing everything people said about themselves on this forum anymore.... 😀

 

[GeneT]

Originally posted by Retro
Thank you for your thoughtful comments, and I hope you are as WONDERFUL in person as you sound on paper. Your presence in this world certainly have brightened the overall human experience. And with that said, I salute you. Conversely, since I am as horrible a person as anyone can be, I will continue on my treacherous lifestyle along the ditches and the rat-holes, and when your graciousful and benevolent presence should shine upon me, remind me not to look at your divine face directly, for I am simply not worthy...

"Let those who have no sins, cast the first stone."