REAL doctors?

[RDood]

you people sound like you've never set foot inside a college lecture hall.

No kidding. Do you not attend a college where you are taught by PhD.'s? I call my Prof's Professor or Doctor all the time. If you spend 6+ years after undergrad studying something, you deserve to be called a doctor in that field. (I'm not history major - but don't you think they term PhD predates MD?)

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[Hardbody]

I'm with Depakote on this one. My dad is also a lawyer and I have heard him refer to himself as a Dr. on more than one occasion.

I guess you learn something new everyday. I knew that technically lawyers were Dr.s, but I never knew there were lawyers who referred to themselves as such. I think if I got my JD I would probably refer to myself as a doctor, at least in formal settings.

 

[ChymeChancellor]

I guess you learn something new everyday. I knew that technically lawyers were Dr.s, but I never knew there were lawyers who referred to themselves as such. I think if I got my JD I would probably refer to myself as a doctor, at least in formal settings.

But also, I have never heard anyone address him as a doctor or anything even remotely close. I really don't think it's standard practice to refer to lawyers as "doctor." Some lawyers just like to inflate their ego this way.

 

[RDood]

But also, I have never heard anyone address him as a doctor or anything even remotely close. I really don't think it's standard practice to refer to lawyers as "doctor." Some lawyers just like to inflate their ego this way.

Aren't lawyers an Esquire at the end of their name? I always thought this was the coolest suffix around...

 

[ChymeChancellor]

Aren't lawyers an Esquire at the end of their name? I always thought this was the coolest suffix around...

I don't even know what that means. One lawyer I know uses this and I asked him what it meant and he looked at me like I was stupid....

 

[RDood]

I don't even know what that means. One lawyer I know uses this and I asked him what it meant and he looked at me like I was stupid....

Yeah, I thought it was just a magazine up until a while ago...

 

[clc8503]

i don't think an optometrist is a doctor.

This is by far one of the most ignorant post I have ever read on SDN. Why would you not consider an optometrist a "real" doctor? They obtain a doctorate in Optometry, just like an MD obtains a doctorate in medicine, and a DO obtains a doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine. Do you even know what an optometrist does, and the amount of training they undergo in order to carry out the daily duties that their profession entails? It's around 8 years, including undergrad training. A Doctor of Optometry is an independent primary health care provider who is trained to examine your eyes for glaucoma, diagnose diseases of the eye, conduct vision therapy, and to write prescriptions. An Optometrist can provide an eye exam and prescribe corrective lenses to improve your vision through the use of eyeglasses or contact lenses. They are NOT physicians who have an unrestricted medical license and the privilege to legally diagnose and treat any area of the body by medication or surgery. However, an Optometrist is nonetheless still a "DOCTOR" because they have obtained that title. You need to get the facts straight before you start belittling other doctoral degrees. It's clearly a mere miscommunication I guess.

To the OP: "Doctor" is just a title and nothing more. This title can mean a variety of things (DC, OD, MD, DO, DPM, DVM, PhD, PharmD, PsyD, DPT, DDS/DMD, etc). I can pretty much go on all day. A doctor is merely someone that has obtained the highest degree of education that is available in a given discipline of study. It signifies that the individual has reached the end of his or her course work and is now a professional in his or her chosen topic of study. I think a lot of people in this thread are confusing the title of a DOCTOR (anyone with a doctoral degree) with the title of a PHYSICIAN (Only MD/DO). It would just be plain silly, and not to mention idiotic to think that that just because someone has "doctor" in front of their last name, that they are a trained PHYSICIAN. However, I do believe that there is a certain amount of respect that should be given to anyone who has devoted a chunk of his or her life to achedemics (the time it takes to complete a doctoral degree) so that he or she can make a some kind of contribution to the world, rather it be through research(PhD) or improving the quality of life of some some living form (MD/DO, OD, DC, DPM, DPT, DDS/DMD, DVM, etc). For whom it may concern, these are best definitions I could find regarding the term "doctor".


Compliments of www.Dictionary.com

Main Entry: 1doc·tor

Pronunciation: 'däk-t&r
Function: noun


1 a : a person who has earned one of the highest academic degrees (as a PhD) conferred by a university b : a person awarded an honorary doctorate by a college or university


2 : a person skilled or specializing in healing arts; especially : a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian licensed to practice his or her profession

 

[21JumpStreet]

That's because you're ignorant and need to get slapped in the face with a healthy backhand of humility.

Have you ever published a paper, an abstract, a leaflet? Do you have any idea the level of dedication and inquiry requisite to publish in a respected journal that counts towards the minimum number of publications for a degree?

You are what is wrong with premedical students. Somehow, in your infinite wisdom and knowledge that has been bestowed upon you through introductory general chemistry courses and your frequent viewings of Grey's Anatomy, you are capable of marginilizing a person's doctoral degree which took anywhere between 4 and 8 years of post-graduate study to obtain.

You do realize, of course, that these uninspired students who "cookie-cuttered" their way through their degree are the ones giving you the ability to diagnose and apply modalities to your patients?

You want to talk about "guidance"? How about a set curriculum of 2 basic science years that are built on sheer memorization and then 2 clinical years of preset rotations followed by an automatic conveyance of a doctorate? Sounds a little bit more structured and less imaginative than the 4 year limbo of a thesis that hinges on an sound hypothesis, elaborate design, literature review, and constant self-doubt.

You need to learn some respect for the people who do the research to make you an effective physician, and start giving them the title they deserve, even if it means you've got to start with a stutter at first.

No one is asking you to call them doctor at the Kwik-E-Mart, but if they're TA'ing a class full of pompous little asses who want to wear stethoscopes at all costs, using a curriculum that likely involves a tedious level of pedagogy, you'd better ante up, regardless if they've done a post-doc or not.

Wow! Great post. The best post I have seen in a long time!

 

[Law2Doc]

Thats probably because technically your dad is a doctor, I've yet to hear a lawyer refer to themselves as a Dr.

It is not accurate. Lawyers refer to themselves and others with the suffix Esq. -- for Esquire (There are actually some lawyers who continue on with education and get a doctorate (PhD) in laws, so they may use both professionally.) But in the profession, lawyers without PhDs or professorships simply don't ever use the prefix, doctor, and it is incorrect to do so. There have actually been ethical rulings in certain jurisdictions indicating that a lawyer with a JD holding himself out as "doctor" is behaving unprofessionally. However on those forms where they ask your highest graduate level, the answer "doctorate/professional" is accurate for a JD, not "graduate/masters".

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't even know what that means. One lawyer I know uses this and I asked him what it meant and he looked at me like I was stupid....

All lawyers use this, and this is something most laypeople are aware of, which is why you got the look. Considering the number of lawyers in the US, and the frequent interaction between other professionals and lawyers (in both positive and negative settings) it would benefit you to know this. Esquire was originally the title of nobleman (comparable to knights using "Sir", although not quite as prestigious -- is has it's derivation from escuire, the knight's assistant/shield bearer), but lawyers adopted it many centuries ago, feeling that although they earned a professional doctorate, it would be too confusing to people for there to be multiple professions using the term "doctor" (Somehow the PhDs didn't care), and it has since become the appropriate suffix for that profession.

 

[ChymeChancellor]

All lawyers use this, and this is something most laypeople are aware of, which is why you got the look. Considering the number of lawyers in the US, and the frequent interaction between other professionals and lawyers (in both positive and negative settings) it would benefit you to know this. Esquire was originally the title of nobleman (comparable to knights using "Sir", although not quite as prestigious -- is has it's derivation from escuire, the knight's assistant/shield bearer), but lawyers adopted it many centuries ago, feeling that although they earned a professional doctorate, it would be too confusing to people for there to be multiple professions using the term "doctor" (Somehow the PhDs didn't care), and it has since become the appropriate suffix for that profession.

I did not know all lawyers used this. The 5+ I know do not use this title. The ones I know simply use the "Attorey at Law" to signify their status on signs, their documents etc.

 

[Law2Doc]

I did not know all lawyers used this. The 5+ I know do not use this title. The ones I know simply use the "Attorey at Law" to signify their status on signs, their documents etc.

If you looked at the mail to them or from them to other lawyers, you would see Esq pretty regularly.

 

[ChymeChancellor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire

I guess it is used. The ones in this area of the country just don't use it I guess.

 

[Law2Doc]

The ones in this area of the country just don't use it I guess.

I seriously doubt that. I have "done deals" with lawyers in all 50 states, and "Esq." is pretty universally used.

 

[ChymeChancellor]

If you looked at the mail to them or from them to other lawyers, you would see Esq pretty regularly.

Ok, I'm not trying to get in an argument over a title. I do see the Esq occasionally but not as much as you would have everyone believe. The most common thing I see on their mail is XXX XXXX - Attorey at Law.

Do lawyers actually go around calling each other "Esquire" though?

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok, I'm not trying to get in an argument over a title. I do see the Esq occasionally but not as much as you would have everyone believe. The most common thing I see on their mail is XXX XXXX - Attorey at Law.

Do lawyers actually go around calling each other "Esquire" though?

You don't call anybody esquire -- it is a signatory title. You see it on documents - much like you wouldn't call a CPA or a CFA "CPA" or "CFA" but would put it on a letter to him. But in legal correspondence it is far, far more prevalent than you are suggesting. Attorney at Law is used in different contexts, eg. business cards, letterhead. Esquire is used for correspondence, addressing envelopes to other lawyers etc.

 

[Haemulon]

This is by far one of the most ignorant post I have ever read on SDN. Why would you not consider an optometrist a "real" doctor? They obtain a doctorate in Optometry, just like an MD obtains a doctorate in medicine, and a DO obtains a doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine. Do you even know what an optometrist does, and the amount of training they undergo in order to carry out the daily duties that their profession entails? It's around 8 years, including undergrad training. A Doctor of Optometry is an independent primary health care provider who is trained to examine your eyes for glaucoma, diagnose diseases of the eye, conduct vision therapy, and to write prescriptions. An Optometrist can provide an eye exam and prescribe corrective lenses to improve your vision through the use of eyeglasses or contact lenses. They are NOT physicians who have an unrestricted medical license and the privilege to legally diagnose and treat any area of the body by medication or surgery. However, an Optometrist is nonetheless still a "DOCTOR" because they have obtained that title. You need to get the facts straight before you start belittling other doctoral degrees, because you are not only out of line with your post, you also sound like an uneducated jackass.

To the OP: "Doctor" is just a title and nothing more. This title can mean a variety of things (DC, OD, MD, DO, DPM, DVM, PhD, PharmD, PsyD, DPT, DDS/DMD, etc). I can pretty much go on all day. A doctor is merely someone that has obtained the highest degree of education that is available in a given discipline of study. It signifies that the individual has reached the end of his or her course work and is now a professional in his or her chosen topic of study. I think a lot of people in this thread are confusing the title of a DOCTOR (anyone with a doctoral degree) with the title of a PHYSICIAN (Only MD/DO). It would just be plain silly, and not to mention idiotic to think that that just because someone has "doctor" in front of their last name, that they are a trained PHYSICIAN. However, I do believe that there is a certain amount of respect that should be given to anyone who has devoted a chunk of his or her life to achedemics (the time it takes to complete a doctoral degree) so that he or she can make a some kind of contribution to the world, rather it be through research(PhD) or improving the quality of life of some some living form (MD/DO, OD, DC, DPM, DPT, DDS/DMD, DVM, etc). For whom it may concern, these are best definitions I could find regarding the term "doctor".


Compliments of www.Dictionary.com

Main Entry: 1doc·tor

Pronunciation: 'däk-t&r
Function: noun


1 a : a person who has earned one of the highest academic degrees (as a PhD) conferred by a university b : a person awarded an honorary doctorate by a college or university


2 : a person skilled or specializing in healing arts; especially : a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian licensed to practice his or her profession

I agree with many of the ideas in your post. I especially like the definitions at the end. However, I just wish you could have said the same thing without much of the inflamatory language. For instance, many average people would probably assume that someone is a physician if all they knew was that the person was referred to as "Doctor". I do not think that this is "idiotic." Its just that most people do not, in the normal course of their lives, interact much with PhD's except for in college. However they do often see physicians. So naturally they tend to associate "Dr." with MD. It is what it is. I do not think they are idiots for doing so, they are just thinking in terms of their common experience.

 

[RDood]

I agree with many of the ideas in your post. I especially like the definitions at the end. However, I just wish you could have said the same thing without much of the inflamatory language. For instance, many average people would probably assume that someone is a physician if all they knew was that the person was referred to as "Doctor". I do not think that this is "idiotic." Its just that most people do not, in the normal course of their lives, interact much with PhD's except for in college. However they do often see physicians. So naturally they tend to associate "Dr." with MD. It is what it is. I do not think they are idiots for doing so, they are just thinking in terms of their common experience.

Remember kids, 99% of the world doesn't go to college in any form, so their interaction with PhD.s is probably limited.

 

[clc8503]

I agree with many of the ideas in your post. I especially like the definitions at the end. However, I just wish you could have said the same thing without much of the inflamatory language. For instance, many average people would probably assume that someone is a physician if all they knew was that the person was referred to as "Doctor". I do not think that this is "idiotic." Its just that most people do not, in the normal course of their lives, interact much with PhD's except for in college. However they do often see physicians. So naturally they tend to associate "Dr." with MD. It is what it is. I do not think they are idiots for doing so, they are just thinking in terms of their common experience.

You're absolutely right. I was a bit out of line with my response. I edited it to make it more reader friendly. I didn't mean to start a flame war or anything like that. I just strongly believe that if someone earns a doctorate, it may not necessarily mean that they have obtained instant respect, but at the same time they should not be made to feel as though there doctoral degree is not legitimate. He or she should not be sold short for their accomplishment, regardless of whatever kind of doctoral degree they have earned. I talked earlier about Optometry, and now I’m going to use Chiropractics as an example. I myself am completely against Chiropractic beliefs, because I don't necessarily agree with their philosophy, but at the same I'm not going to discredit them. I have not seen any scientific evidence that backs up their holistic approach, but I have also not seen any scientific evidence that disproves their beliefs. What I'm saying is even though there are some forms of medicine that I don't necessarily agree with, that doesn't mean that they are not legitimate, because this is merely my opinion, and nothing more. That being said, I would NEVER go around and tell others that chiropractors aren’t "real" doctors, because they have a "real" doctoral degree. You're right though. The majority of the world does automatically think that doctor means MD. However, that doesn't mean that it makes it right. It certainly doesn't give anyone the right to belittle others who have traveled a long academic journey to become experts in whatever field they felt passionate enough to do so in. Thanks for calling me on the distasteful response. I think it sounds much better now. Furthermore, I don’t want anyone in this thread to think that I am pre-optometry or pre-chiropractic, or anything like that, because I’m not. I am merely using these fields as an example to prove a point. Along with MD school, I will also be applying to few DO schools next cycle, and I would hate to know that if that people would discredit my hard work if I do indeed travel the DO route, instead of the MD.

 

[Haemulon]

You're absolutely right. I was a bit out of line with my response. I edited it to make it more reader friendly. I didn't mean to start a flame war or anything like that. I just strongly believe that if someone earns a doctorate, it may not necessarily mean that they have obtained instant respect, but at the same time they should not be made to feel as though there doctoral degree is not legitimate. He or she should not be sold short for their accomplishment, regardless of whatever kind of doctoral degree they have earned. I talked earlier about Optometry, and now I’m going to use Chiropractics as an example. I myself am completely against Chiropractic beliefs, because I don't necessarily agree with their philosophy, but at the same I'm not going to discredit them. I have not seen any scientific evidence that backs up their holistic approach, but I have also not seen any scientific evidence that disproves their beliefs. What I'm saying is even though there are some forms of medicine that I don't necessarily agree with, that doesn't mean that they are not legitimate, because this is merely my opinion, and nothing more. That being said, I would NEVER go around and tell others that chiropractors aren’t "real" doctors, because they have a "real" doctoral degree. You're right though. The majority of the world does automatically think that doctor means MD. However, that doesn't mean that it makes it right. It certainly doesn't give anyone the right to belittle others who have traveled a long academic journey to become experts in whatever field they felt passionate enough to do so in. Thanks for calling me on the distasteful response. I think it sounds much better now. Furthermore, I don’t want anyone in this thread to think that I am pre-optometry or pre-chiropractic, or anything like that, because I’m not. I am merely using these fields as an example to prove a point. Along with MD school, I will also be applying to few DO schools next cycle, and I would hate to know that if that people would discredit my hard work if I do indeed travel the DO route, instead of the MD.

Top notch post here. BTW, I agree with you about chiropractic. I don't believe in or agree with much of it, yet I would still use their appropriate title out of courtesy.

 

[Lawguy]

It is not accurate. Lawyers refer to themselves and others with the suffix Esq. -- for Esquire (There are actually some lawyers who continue on with education and get a doctorate (PhD) in laws, so they may use both professionally.) But in the profession, lawyers without PhDs or professorships simply don't ever use the prefix, doctor, and it is incorrect to do so. There have actually been ethical rulings in certain jurisdictions indicating that a lawyer with a JD holding himself out as "doctor" is behaving unprofessionally.

Not only that, but I believe there are rulings in at least some jurisdictions holding that a lawyer cannot use the title "Dr." professionally, even if he has earned a Ph.D or MD. The reason, I've been told, is that the title "Dr." conveys credibility, and its use in an adversarial proceeding could give attorneys who have other doctoral degrees an advantage that they should not have. (I'm not sure if that's the rule in all jurisdictions, but it is a rule I have heard of in some.)

Also, just to clarify -- the advanced law degree is not technically a Ph.D, though I would consider it an equivalent. Beyond the JD, the next degree a lawyer may obtain is an LL.M. (master of laws), and after that, an attorney may obtain a JSD (doctor of judicial science -- called a SJD at some institutions).

 

[63768]

This is by far one of the most ignorant post I have ever read on SDN. Why would you not consider an optometrist a "real" doctor? They obtain a doctorate in Optometry, just like an MD obtains a doctorate in medicine, and a DO obtains a doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine. Do you even know what an optometrist does, and the amount of training they undergo in order to carry out the daily duties that their profession entails?

thanks for the definition of a doctor. yes, i know what they go through and what they do as my best friend is currently a second year at UHCO. you're right. i am ignorant. my belief when i posted earlier in this thread was not informed. but i never discounted their intelligence or their degrees. i just didn't feel that they were the same as an MD or a DO. but i was wrong.

i posted that i don't consider optometrists to be a doctor because i believed that their duties were regulated to prescribing glasses/contacts. i thought that if they detected any diseases like glaucoma, diabetic retinopathy, cataracts, they had to refer patients to an opthalmologist. turns out, they are able to prescribe medications for minor eye problems (not sure what they are), but i then realized that they really are akin to primary care physicians.

so i was wrong, and i'm sorry i posted an ignorant statement.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

Dr. Strange has an MD and they call him doctor. Dr. Doom and Dr. Octopus don't have MD's but they call them doctor anyway. Even in DC Comics, a whole different dimension/universe/space time continuum, two DIFFERENT Dr. Lights with non MD degrees were still referred to as doctor.

Point of story: if they can whup your mortal ass, you better call them whatever they want.

 

[21JumpStreet]

" For instance, many average people would probably assume that someone is a physician if all they knew was that the person was referred to as "Doctor". I do not think that this is "idiotic." Its just that most people do not, in the normal course of their lives, interact much with PhD's except for in college. However they do often see physicians. So naturally they tend to associate "Dr." with MD. It is what it is. I do not think they are idiots for doing so, they are just thinking in terms of their common experience.

I totally agree. This is very true among people that haven't been to college or just starting college. In fact there are people starting college not knowing what a PHD stands for. They learn later.

 

[21JumpStreet]

Not only that, but I believe there are rulings in at least some jurisdictions holding that a lawyer cannot use the title "Dr." professionally, even if he has earned a Ph.D or MD. The reason, I've been told, is that the title "Dr." conveys credibility, and its use in an adversarial proceeding could give attorneys who have other doctoral degrees an advantage that they should not have. (I'm not sure if that's the rule in all jurisdictions, but it is a rule I have heard of in some.)

Also, just to clarify -- the advanced law degree is not technically a Ph.D, though I would consider it an equivalent. Beyond the JD, the next degree a lawyer may obtain is an LL.M. (master of laws), and after that, an attorney may obtain a JSD (doctor of judicial science -- called a SJD at some institutions).

I am curious. I just realized that I am not familiar with law titles as much as I thought I was. Do you need to go beyond a JD in order to become a judge? I am just curious. I know one thing: I have never heard a judge or a lawyer being called doctor. No offense. Sorry for the tangent.

 

[Xypathos]

I am curious. I just realized that I am not familiar with law titles as much as I thought I was. Do you need to go beyond a JD in order to become a judge? I am just curious. I know one thing: I have never heard a judge or a lawyer being called doctor. No offense. Sorry for the tangent.

It helps to have advanced degrees I'm sure, but no --- most, if not all, are appointed or elected.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am curious. I just realized that I am not familiar with law titles as much as I thought I was. Do you need to go beyond a JD in order to become a judge? I am just curious. I know one thing: I have never heard a judge or a lawyer being called doctor. No offense. Sorry for the tangent.

No. The vast majority of judges are JDs. Few have degrees beyond this. But in some jurisdictions, particularly those where judges are elected by the voters, you needn't even become a lawyer to become a judge.

The higher legal degrees tend to be used for specialists (eg. an LLM (Masters of Law) in tax or estate planning or international law sometimes is useful in these legal specialties), or professors.

 

[Law2Doc]

It helps to have advanced degrees I'm sure,

I wouldn't be sure if I were you. I've not come across many judges with advanced degrees.

 

[Pewl]

Not only that, it's a heck of a lot harder to get into M.D. programs than it is to get into Ph.D. programs.

Dude, it is a heck of a lot harder to finish a Ph.D. though. Having been in grad school myself I have the utmost respect for Ph.D's. I personally think it is more intellectually challenging to do a Ph.D. than an M.D.

 

[21JumpStreet]

No. The vast majority of judges are JDs. Few have degrees beyond this. But in some jurisdictions, particularly those where judges are elected by the voters, you needn't even become a lawyer to become a judge.

The higher legal degrees tend to be used for specialists (eg. an LLM (Masters of Law) in tax or estate planning or international law sometimes is useful in these legal specialties), or professors.

Thanks for explaining. This is interesting. I didn't know that you could go beyond a law degree.

 

[21JumpStreet]

Originally Posted by adam64897
"Not only that, it's a heck of a lot harder to get into M.D. programs than it is to get into Ph.D. programs."

Some phd programs are harder to gain entrance to. Clinical psych is one. I know at my former university, it was much harder to get in to any of the earth/ocean sciences programs.

Also, the subject GRE exams were rather difficult. You don't only take the general GRE as many people assume.

 

[Law2Doc]

Thanks for explaining. This is interesting. I didn't know that you could go beyond a law degree.

You can always go further -- if you have the 20k/yr to spend there is always someone out there willing to take it.

 

[Haemulon]

Originally Posted by adam64897
"Not only that, it's a heck of a lot harder to get into M.D. programs than it is to get into Ph.D. programs."

Some phd programs are harder to gain entrance to. Clinical psych is one. I know at my former university, it was much harder to get in to any of the earth/ocean sciences programs.

Also, the subject GRE exams were rather difficult. You don't only take the general GRE as many people assume.

I took the GRE's (subject and general) before I went to grad school. For me they were like glorified SAT's, and were on different days. It wasn't the monster of a test that I found the MCAT to be. But different people have different experiences I suppose. I do not gree that it is easier to get into a MD program than a PhD program. Now of course individual schools have their own standards for PhD's, but so do medical schools. Why not just take Harvard Medical School or Johns Hopkins Medical School as the examples for med school admissions then and compare it to your difficult to get into earth science program. If you look at the ability to get into any program at all in a given subject, not just restricted to one school, I suspect that medical school admissions is a much more arduous process with a more uncertain outcome. This is of course assuming that one has some qualifications for one's chosen field to begin with. I wouldn't expect a biology major to meet with much success in trying to gain admission to a PhD program in nuclear physics for instance. Lets compare apples with apples.

 

[21JumpStreet]

I took the GRE's (subject and general) before I went to grad school. For me they were like glorified SAT's, and were on different days. It wasn't the monster of a test that I found the MCAT to be. But different people have different experiences I suppose. I do not gree that it is easier to get into a MD program than a PhD program. Now of course individual schools have their own standards for PhD's, but so do medical schools. Why not just take Harvard Medical School or Johns Hopkins Medical School as the examples for med school admissions then and compare it to your difficult to get into earth science program. If you look at the ability to get into any program at all in a given subject, not just restricted to one school, I suspect that medical school admissions is a much more arduous process with a more uncertain outcome. This is of course assuming that one has some qualifications for one's chosen field to begin with. I wouldn't expect a biology major to meet with much success in trying to gain admission to a PhD program in nuclear physics for instance. Lets compare apples with apples.

Well, you yourself are still comparing.

For you to say that the subject gre exam was like the SAT exam is ridiculous. A subject gre goes way beyond material covered in high school. To say the least you like to exaggerate. The Physics Gre exam that I took went well beyond pre-med physics.

 

[LabMonster]

lol...seriously though. A Chiropractor or an Optometrist couldn't pull up to an accident scene claiming to be a "doctor" could they?

Hmmm. Because I have an MD behind my name, does that qualify me to handle a trauma situation?

If I have 20 years of psychiatry, or endocrinology behind me, am I qualified to solely manage a patient in respiratory failure in the ICU?

If I am bleeding on the pavement, give me a paramedic, EMT or trauma nurse any day - please. If there is an ER doc or PA around, GREAT!

Doctors duties/interests are stratified to maximize their own knowledge in order to benefit their patients.

Do all licensed practictioners have their place? Sure they do - they can treat something you CAN NOT.

Just because you've earned an MD does not guarantee your efficacy in a trauma situation, nor does it grant you special powers to treat people outside your realm of expertise.

The converse applies as well.

 

[neurodoc]

The OP asked whether or not optometrists, chiropractors, etc. should be called "doctor." The simple answer is yes, if they earned a doctoral degree. OD, DC, DVM, DPM, PhD, MD, DO, DSc, EdD, DPharm, DCM (Doctor of Chinese Medicine), and JD are all examples of doctoral degrees.

The term, "physician," however is limited to those who have either an MD or DO degree, and this is specified by laws in every State. Indeed, it is unlawful for someone who is not an MD or DO to advertise himself as a "physician." Examples of such illegal self-descriptions would be a DC who calls himself a "Chiropractic Physician," a DCM who calls himself a "Physician of Chinese Medicine," and an OD who calls himself an "Optometric Physician" or "Ophthalmic Physician."

As you can see, there are multitudes who may legally call themselves "Doctor." Fewer are legally allowed to call themselves "Physician."

Nick

 

[LabMonster]

Let's not forget what "doctor" means: Teacher.

An MD is a medical doctor - one who is supposed to teach medicine.

A PhD is a doctor of philosophy, or teacher of their discipline.

An MD is also different from a physician. I can hold an MD, without being a physician - to be a physician you must have the knowledge, training, and licensure to practice the art and science of medicine.

Are doctors doctors? If they have been accredited with attaining a knowledge base and can teach what they know, then yes. Are they physicians? Unless they fit the above criteria, then no, they are doctors and not physicians. There is a big difference and it is not semantics.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hmmm. Because I have an MD behind my name, does that qualify me to handle a trauma situation?

If I have 20 years of psychiatry, or endocrinology behind me, am I qualified to solely manage a patient in respiratory failure in the ICU?

If I am bleeding on the pavement, give me a paramedic, EMT or trauma nurse any day - please. If there is an ER doc or PA around, GREAT!

Doctors duties/interests are stratified to maximize their own knowledge in order to benefit their patients.

Do all licensed practictioners have their place? Sure they do - they can treat something you CAN NOT.

Just because you've earned an MD does not guarantee your efficacy in a trauma situation, nor does it grant you special powers to treat people outside your realm of expertise.

The converse applies as well.

A couple of decades ago all physicians did a one year internship in internal medicine before their specialized residency, because it was in fact expected that all doctors should be able to handle the respiratory failure type situations you describe. So yes, the older docs out there in all fields probably can manage a respiratory failure ICU case, because they've done it before. In more recent years, things became more specialized, and the internship year has gone by the wayside for most specialties. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing, but probably realistic given the amount of knowledge involved in each specialty.

 

[Haemulon]

Well, you yourself are still comparing.

For you to say that the subject gre exam was like the SAT exam is ridiculous. A subject gre goes way beyond material covered in high school. To say the least you like to exaggerate. The Physics Gre exam that I took went well beyond pre-med physics.

Of course I am still comparing. I said that I suspect that MD admission are more arduous based on what I have experienced so far. And I stand by what I said about the GRE's. For me, they were like glorified SAT's. Especially the general test. The subject test is completely separate and is even taken on a different day usually. I never said that either test was restricted to highschool material.

Where did I exaggerate? I said that "For me they were like glorified SAT's, and were on different days. It wasn't the monster of a test that I found the MCAT to be. But different people have different experiences I suppose." Based on that you label me an exaggerator? You were supporting my posts earlier in this thread. I am sorry if you found the GRE's to be so difficult. I did not. Perhaps you will be one of those that find gaining entrance to medical school to be easy. For me, it has been more difficult than graduate school thus far. Different people have different experiences.

 

[baylormed]

I have to agree with whoever said that people using their titles outside of proper setting is kind of pathetic.

I just can't trust someone who has to make sure that everyone he meets in little Johnny's birthday party knows that he is a "doctor" (let it be MD or PhD). To me, it reflects a little insecurity (as in "please glorify me, I have a doctorate degree) and maybe arrogance. The only way I would accept this is if someone else introduces you as such, "Oh, have you met Dr. _______?"

Yes, they earned the title and I don't doubt they are intelligent people, but I was always taught that modesty is important. If the other person then asks, what do you do? Then go ahead and say, "Well, I'm a doctor".

But your title being the first thing that comes out of your mouth seems presumptious.

Okay, I ranted.

 

[21JumpStreet]

Of course I am still comparing. I said that I suspect that MD admission are more arduous based on what I have experienced so far. And I stand by what I said about the GRE's. For me, they were like glorified SAT's. Especially the general test. The subject test is completely separate and is even taken on a different day usually. I never said that either test was restricted to highschool material.

Where did I exaggerate? I said that "For me they were like glorified SAT's, and were on different days. It wasn't the monster of a test that I found the MCAT to be. But different people have different experiences I suppose." Based on that you label me an exaggerator? You were supporting my posts earlier in this thread. I am sorry if you found the GRE's to be so difficult. I did not. Perhaps you will be one of those that find gaining entrance to medical school to be easy. For me, it has been more difficult than graduate school thus far. Different people have different experiences.

Well, I have a phd and am almost done with medical school. For me I found that the physics and chem gre's (I took them both) were more difficult than the mcat. The physics and chem exams required higher level of coursework knowledge than they did for the mcat. The mcat required knowledge of lower division, INTRO level science courses. The subject gre's covered MUCH MORE than INTRO level coursework.

The mcat was certainly no cakewalk. It wasn't an easy exam. But, I still say that the physical science gre's were more challenging.

 

[SitraAchra]

I'm concerned with where Dr. Dre fits into the schema we've constructed here.

As taken from wikipedia:

Young started his career as a DJ and poster boy for the World Class Wreckin' Cru during the first half of the 1980s, taking the name Dr. Dre (from his first name, Andre). It is stated in the World Class Wreckin' Cru track "Surgery" that Dr. Dre has Ph.D. in "mixology".

I wonder what journal(s) he published in, what his thesis was, and where in South Central LA he went to graduate school.

 

[21JumpStreet]

Of course I am still comparing. I said that I suspect that MD admission are more arduous based on what I have experienced so far. And I stand by what I said about the GRE's. For me, they were like glorified SAT's. Especially the general test. The subject test is completely separate and is even taken on a different day usually. I never said that either test was restricted to highschool material.

Where did I exaggerate? I said that "For me they were like glorified SAT's, and were on different days. It wasn't the monster of a test that I found the MCAT to be. But different people have different experiences I suppose." Based on that you label me an exaggerator? You were supporting my posts earlier in this thread. I am sorry if you found the GRE's to be so difficult. I did not. Perhaps you will be one of those that find gaining entrance to medical school to be easy. For me, it has been more difficult than graduate school thus far. Different people have different experiences.

I still agree with your other posts. I guess we have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

[DoctorPardi]

I wonder what journal(s) he published in, what his thesis was, and where in South Central LA he went to graduate school.

The Chronic, I believe was his major contribution to mixology.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Optometrists: is this better or is this better, this better or this better. Thanks doctor.

 

[DoctorPardi]

Optometrists: is this better or is this better, this better or this better. Thanks doctor.

It does seem like optometrists are overtrained for basically asking, "A, or B? 1 or 2? Again, A or B?" I don't deny they go through a doctorate level training program. It just seems like much of the job could be done by those without doctorate level degrees.

 

[neurodoc]

Let's not forget what "doctor" means: Teacher.

An MD is a medical doctor - one who is supposed to teach medicine.

A PhD is a doctor of philosophy, or teacher of their discipline.

An MD is also different from a physician. I can hold an MD, without being a physician - to be a physician you must have the knowledge, training, and licensure to practice the art and science of medicine.

Are doctors doctors? If they have been accredited with attaining a knowledge base and can teach what they know, then yes. Are they physicians? Unless they fit the above criteria, then no, they are doctors and not physicians. There is a big difference and it is not semantics.

You are picking nits. We all know that "doctor" is a Latin word meaning one who teaches (from the verb, docere, "to teach." To be true to the etymology of their title, doctors should be able to teach. Does this mean that my first grade teacher, Mother Margaret Mary, who graduated from High School but not from college, should have been called "doctor," while my family practioner, J. Tannenbaum, MD, should not have been called "Doctor Tannenbaum?" Doc Tannenbaum couldn't have taught his way out of a paper bag, but he did a great job treating my ear infections and sewing up my right knee after I crashed my bicycle while riding down Bryant Avenue in the Bronx in the 1960's...

My point was that only MDs or DOs are allowed, by law, top call themselves physicians. Physician, of course, is a word that derives from Greek. The etymology is a bit complex, as the root word covers things pertaining to the natural world.

Nick

 

[21JumpStreet]

You are picking nits. We all know that "doctor" is a Latin word meaning one who teaches (from the verb, docere, "to teach." To be true to the etymology of their title, doctors should be able to teach. Does this mean that my first grade teacher, Mother Margaret Mary, who graduated from High School but not from college, should have been called "doctor," while my family practioner, J. Tannenbaum, MD, should not have been called "Doctor Tannenbaum?" Doc Tannenbaum couldn't have taught his way out of a paper bag, but he did a great job treating my ear infections and sewing up my right knee after I crashed my bicycle while riding down Bryant Avenue in the Bronx in the 1960's...

My point was that only MDs or DOs are allowed, by law, top call themselves physicians. Physician, of course, is a word that derives from Greek. The etymology is a bit complex, as the root word covers things pertaining to the natural world.

Nick

Podiatrists are also considered physicians.

 

[Law2Doc]

Optometrists: is this better or is this better, this better or this better. Thanks doctor.

In all fairness, even physicians doing a physical exam are going to ask their fair share of things like: does it hurt here? How about here? or
Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out...
Or, tell me when you can feel/hear/see this. How about now? Now?

 

[BackTalk]

The OP asked whether or not optometrists, chiropractors, etc. should be called "doctor." The simple answer is yes, if they earned a doctoral degree. OD, DC, DVM, DPM, PhD, MD, DO, DSc, EdD, DPharm, DCM (Doctor of Chinese Medicine), and JD are all examples of doctoral degrees.

The term, "physician," however is limited to those who have either an MD or DO degree, and this is specified by laws in every State. Indeed, it is unlawful for someone who is not an MD or DO to advertise himself as a "physician." Examples of such illegal self-descriptions would be a DC who calls himself a "Chiropractic Physician," a DCM who calls himself a "Physician of Chinese Medicine," and an OD who calls himself an "Optometric Physician" or "Ophthalmic Physician."

As you can see, there are multitudes who may legally call themselves "Doctor." Fewer are legally allowed to call themselves "Physician."

Nick

Chiropractors are licensed as "CHIROPRACTIC PHYSICIANS" in most states. It is not ILLEGAL for chiropractors to use the title "PHYSICIAN" in these states.