Reality Check

[Skip Intro]

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(1) You need to get yourself organized. Now. Those of you considering going to a Carib school, that is. Organization is key. If you can't organize yourself, you will fail.

(2) Every decision you make, every thing you do (undergrads to recently matriculated), has downstream effects. Everything. Choose wisely. This goes for the big ones like what school to attend, to whether or not you should go hang out at the local bar that night instead of studying because that cute bartender might be there and you can sit there and have a beer and chat them up. Make the right decisions. Life is long.

(3) You are going to be in debt. Massive debt. Debt you can't possibly imagine right now. Sallie Mae is a cruel mistress, and she will hound you like a scorned lover if you try to spite her. While getting yourself into this debt, recognize that you will have to someday get yourself out of it. Let this be your daily motivator.

(4) Keep meticulous records. **READ THAT AGAIN*** Keep meticulous records. A lot of you have gotten to this stage in the game (ie considering Carib schools) because you have been... ahem... perhaps a little "sloppy" in your life to this point. Now is the time to change that. Dedicate at least 15 minutes every day to organizing yourself. When you get up in the morning, or before you go to bed at night. Preferably both. It doesn't take a long time. Like Nike adverts say, "Just do it."

(5) Be prepared to plumb the depths of humility. Some people will try to break you in ways you cannot fathom right now. They will try to put you in your place. They will try to get you in trouble. They will talk about you behind your back. They will step on you trying to get over you. You will have to eat a lot of crow, and you will have to maintain that level of "inner confidence" to get you through it. You will get talked to like you are a 7-year-old from time to time. Just take your beatings. And, always remember, knowledge and honesty is the best defense.

(6) Don't lie. Don't lie to your colleagues. Don't lie to yourself. Don't lie to the important people in your life. If you are in trouble, ask for help from someone you can trust. If you're not sure of something, say so. I've worked (literally) with hundreds and hundreds of medical students and residents from all types of schools (from, yes, Harvard to India to the supposed crappy Carib schools). The ones who get in trouble are the liars. Once you abuse someone's trust, it's really really hard to earn it back. Believe this.

(7) If you are psycho, choose another line of work. Be honest with yourself. You know if you are psycho. DO NOT go into medicine. There are enough nutjobs in the medical profession, and believe me when I tell you that they have a REALLY hard time functioning effectively. We don't need any more. If you are psycho, you will get found out, ostracized, and will find yourself in a lot of debt without anything to show for it and/or struggling to get by.

(8) Lastly, don't procrastinate. Procrastinators always lose in the end. Their work isn't as good. This is the culmination of all of the above advice.

IGNORE THIS ADVICE AT YOUR OWN PERIL! If you do follow the above, the "big picture" stuff I've laid out, you will succeed. The details will work themselves out. Trust me. I've been there, I've made my share of mistakes, but I kept the core principles above intact. Learn from them. Don't make the BIG mistakes.

-Skip

 

[J ROD]

😱

 

[Skip Intro]

Okay, let me simplify it, because I know people don't like to read TOO much stuff:

(1) Get and stay organized.
(2) Make wise choices, including which school.
(3) Appreciate NOW the debt you're gonna be in.
(4) Keep meticulous records.
(5) Practice humility.
(6) Don't lie.
(7) "Know thyself."
(8) Don't procrastinate.

You HAVE to do these things, at a minimum, if you are going to survive. If you don't you're going to fail. Going this route is a marathon, not a sprint. Start training now for that marathon. Today. Learn from those of us who succeeded.

Good luck.

-Skip

 

[thinker]

lovely.. thanks!

 

[Skip Intro]

I just have to bump this thread...

The federal government is going to start to provide a lot more oversight, if you believe a recent report by the GAO and their recommendations, into the off-shore schools.

I have to reiterate what I said above. You will be held accountable if you endeavor to go this route, and you will be expected to succeed without welshing on your debts.

Follow my advice. You want to end up like me: making a lot of money in private practice doing what you love, not flipping burgers at McDonalds wondering how you're going to pay off those loans that got you nowhere.

-Skip Intro

 

[Aphtalyfe]

I just have to bump this thread...

The federal government is going to start to provide a lot more oversight, if you believe a recent report by the GAO and their recommendations, into the off-shore schools.

I have to reiterate what I said above. You will be held accountable if you endeavor to go this route, and you will be expected to succeed without welshing on your debts.

Follow my advice. You want to end up like me: making a lot of money in private practice doing what you love, not flipping burgers at McDonalds wondering how you're going to pay off those loans that got you nowhere.

-Skip Intro

So the article says that for schools receiving federal loans, they will be required to hit 75% passing the USMLE Step 1. I was under the impression that the big 3 already hit that.

Is it including the people that drop out of the school?

US schools report their passing rates based on the people actually taking the exam. Isn't that how the Caribbean schools are reporting their scores too?

 

[SNu]

I have heard that you cannot take the exam and start year 3 unless you pass a practice exam that they, the Big 3, administer. I believe this is the point where a lot of the students drop out.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

I have heard that you cannot take the exam and start year 3 unless you pass a practice exam that they, the Big 3, administer. I believe this is the point where a lot of the students drop out.

I currently go to AUC, and maybe 1-2 people are unable to pass the practice exam. You get 3 chances to pass it.

Maybe its different at Ross?

I don't hear about many people failing the practice exams at SGU.

 

[RussianJoo]

people fail practice exams at SGU, when i was there the pass rate was 96%, however, even if you failed it, if you provide a reciept that you're taking a review course like kaplan they'll let you take the exam. only rarely will you have to retake the exam.

 

[RussianJoo]

With regards to the 96% number you cite, that is the percentage of students who get to the exam. I think the real number that should be utilized is the percentage of students who start at these schools who pass the USMLE. Compared to US schools the attrition rates prior to Step 1 are significantly higher at to the Big 3. Further, this large number of students who don't make it end up owing a significant amount of money.

no one was taking about attrition rates. and no probably more 99% get to the exam, the 96% is the percent of student who pass the 2nd year cumulative exam, as i a mentioned above if you provide evidence that you're taking a review course the school well let those that failed this exam sit for step1.

 

[RussianJoo]

i bet not even harvard med school will give you that data.

 

[RussianJoo]

if i had to guess as to the actual attrition rate for sgu i would say it's around 10% for all 4 years. and about 20 to 25% take longer than 4 years to finish, but eventually do graduate. this is just from observations i've made during lectures from one semester to the next. and with a class of about 350 to 400 students that's a large sum.

but you have to realize that this is a second chance for us, none of us could get into med school in the US and wouldn't become doctors if it wasn't for SGU so I would expect the attrition rate to be high. At the same time 90% chance of becoming a doctor is pretty good and our step pass rates are also in the mid 90%.

 

[emno]

(1) You need to get yourself organized. Now. Those of you considering going to a Carib school, that is. Organization is key. If you can't organize yourself, you will fail.

(2) Every decision you make, every thing you do (undergrads to recently matriculated), has downstream effects. Everything. Choose wisely. This goes for the big ones like what school to attend, to whether or not you should go hang out at the local bar that night instead of studying because that cute bartender might be there and you can sit there and have a beer and chat them up. Make the right decisions. Life is long.

(3) You are going to be in debt. Massive debt. Debt you can't possibly imagine right now. Sallie Mae is a cruel mistress, and she will hound you like a scorned lover if you try to spite her. While getting yourself into this debt, recognize that you will have to someday get yourself out of it. Let this be your daily motivator.

(4) Keep meticulous records. **READ THAT AGAIN*** Keep meticulous records. A lot of you have gotten to this stage in the game (ie considering Carib schools) because you have been... ahem... perhaps a little "sloppy" in your life to this point. Now is the time to change that. Dedicate at least 15 minutes every day to organizing yourself. When you get up in the morning, or before you go to bed at night. Preferably both. It doesn't take a long time. Like Nike adverts say, "Just do it."

(5) Be prepared to plumb the depths of humility. Some people will try to break you in ways you cannot fathom right now. They will try to put you in your place. They will try to get you in trouble. They will talk about you behind your back. They will step on you trying to get over you. You will have to eat a lot of crow, and you will have to maintain that level of "inner confidence" to get you through it. You will get talked to like you are a 7-year-old from time to time. Just take your beatings. And, always remember, knowledge and honesty is the best defense.

(6) Don't lie. Don't lie to your colleagues. Don't lie to yourself. Don't lie to the important people in your life. If you are in trouble, ask for help from someone you can trust. If you're not sure of something, say so. I've worked (literally) with hundreds and hundreds of medical students and residents from all types of schools (from, yes, Harvard to India to the supposed crappy Carib schools). The ones who get in trouble are the liars. Once you abuse someone's trust, it's really really hard to earn it back. Believe this.

(7) If you are psycho, choose another line of work. Be honest with yourself. You know if you are psycho. DO NOT go into medicine. There are enough nutjobs in the medical profession, and believe me when I tell you that they have a REALLY hard time functioning effectively. We don't need any more. If you are psycho, you will get found out, ostracized, and will find yourself in a lot of debt without anything to show for it and/or struggling to get by.

(8) Lastly, don't procrastinate. Procrastinators always lose in the end. Their work isn't as good. This is the culmination of all of the above advice.

IGNORE THIS ADVICE AT YOUR OWN PERIL! If you do follow the above, the "big picture" stuff I've laid out, you will succeed. The details will work themselves out. Trust me. I've been there, I've made my share of mistakes, but I kept the core principles above intact. Learn from them. Don't make the BIG mistakes.

-Skip

Great post, thanks

 

[docbill]

(7) If you are psycho, choose another line of work. Be honest with yourself. You know if you are psycho. DO NOT go into medicine. There are enough nutjobs in the medical profession, and believe me when I tell you that they have a REALLY hard time functioning effectively. We don't need any more. If you are psycho, you will get found out, ostracized, and will find yourself in a lot of debt without anything to show for it and/or struggling to get by.


-Skip

I like #7, but usually psychos don't know they are. They think they are normal. That is why we have so many in Medicine.

 

[Gfliptastic]

Hi 1st time post (to this forum, not as a forum user - lol)

I think based on the fact that few schools release this data, we can do our best to interpret the data presented here:


http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...spx?k=academicmedicine:2008:10001:00009&i=TT1

I'll be attending Ross (the whole reason I hopped on SDN was for my scrutiny). Therefore I key in on Dominica data. [Even tho we need to perhaps lump the 2 schools listed as Dominica as Ross].

~6700 sat for the Step 1. ~5400 sat for Step 2 CK. ~4700 sat for CS.

US schools (which I've been waitlisted at several times) are so selective because were we to cull data from those schools, we would expect the numbers to stay consistent. The "tragedy" of a US med school is to have a student drop out. Meaning they misjudged the students abilities and intentions and shut out a different applicant who would have completed their education.

4700 of the 6700 students at Ross sit for Step 2 CS. Broadly speaking, 70% of their class. Which IS roughly what is reported by more independent data sources.

I can relate to Skip and wholeheartedly (sheepishly) agree w/ what is written. Fact is, I have a 33R MCAT, and I'm going to Ross. (I taught the damn MCAT for Kaplan for 3 years!)

My dad died when I was in undergrad, I had a lousy GPA, but I also did more or less (directly or indirectly) procrastinate every app cycle. Hell, I was applying to Ross for the Sept class and got accepted for the Jan class...cuz I procrastinated. Anyone know anyone who's been waitlisted 3x's by US med schools? PM me, and you do?

I accept my fate.

I've cruised around here for a solid day now. Ya know what I've learned? US med schools "hate" you. AMG's will "hate" you. (Residencies aren't going to beat down your door begging you to match them!) You know how you make them tolerate you? Study your ass off, get SUPERB Board scores. Standardized tests level the playing field! A great (US) med school and a crappy Board score is no better than a Caribbean med school and a superb Board score!! And by all objective means, any "animosity" towards you is irrational, since you did EXACTLY what they did...just not in the 50 states! 😉

 

[RussianJoo]

darn maybe if you applied early one cycle you would get off the waitlist? that sucks. don't procrastinate in med school it will eat you alive.

 

[Gfliptastic]

darn maybe if you applied early one cycle you would get off the waitlist? that sucks. don't procrastinate in med school it will eat you alive.

It is what it is. Applying is expensive. Doing it year after year eventually adds up to buying a cheap car! I put a back up plan this year, I'm going to use it. Plus, no waitlist schools have matriculated chance, I could still end up at one.

Anyways, trying to shed light on attrition.

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2008.html

This kinda supports what data I can find. (P.S. - If you lose that link about Caribbean schools, clear your cache out then click on it again. They force a "cookie" on you after you see it 1x)

Using the broad generality that med school admissions (both US and non-US) is static, meaning the size of classes are not increasing [even tho they are], let's use the data. [ie - the same student is not sitting for the Step 1 for the Step 2 and Step 3...we just say that student's "seat" in med school did tho] US med schools do report modest increases year over year of 1% tho some are using "rapid" expansion to a 5% every few years.

18855 AMG's (sometimes referred to as USMG's) sat for the Step 1
17440 sat for Step 2 CK
17302 sat for Step 2 CS

18241 sat for Step 3 (the variable increase is due to the fact that students come out of their residency rotations or choose to take step 3 at variable times after their MD)

If I adjust these numbers by say 3% (trimming back the Step 1 number to simulate the class expansion sez 18855-566 = 18289

Take that number and subtract it from the Step 2 CS is 987 "washouts". 987/18289 is a 5.3% attrition for US/Canadian med schools

Won't go thru the same narrative for Caribbean (and all FMG's for that matter)

14889
12847
13787
9376

14889-12847=2051 /14889 13% of all. Let's also use this strange # of 9376 for Step 3's of FMG. 37% don't of a rough estimated population don't take Step 3.

Granted foreign med schools are growing far faster than US med schools.

Do what you want w/ the data. ROUGH ROUGH ROUGH data!! 😀

 

[Skip Intro]

I like #7, but usually psychos don't know they are. They think they are normal. That is why we have so many in Medicine.

When I use the term psycho, I don't mean it in the purest clinical sense, of course, as in psychotic.

The ones who struggle, even just through the basic science part, usually are significantly impaired by a personality disorder that for whatever reason was never addressed. Forget about the ones who somehow squeak through only to get found out in residency. They will fire you in residency, you know, and that too is a bad, bad thing. You can't fake "normal" for very long if you have a mental disorder and, you're right, it's damn near impossible for anyone with a personality issue to realize they're the problem.

The simplest test is whether or not you've ever wondered why no one, and I mean nobody, seems to like you and/or why you don't have any stable friends. Medicine requires you to be able to be vocal, confident, and yet able to get along with others. If you can't do this, you're in trouble.

My own carib experience was that more than a few of these sad cases got the chance to come to Ross and try to prove themselves. One guy in particular was a unique blend of "Cluster A" personalities all rolled into one. He never had a chance. It would've been nice if someone had told him that before he wasted a substantial wad of his cash. He didn't make it past the first semeseter, IIRC. But, hey. He got his chance.

The weed-out process at the Carib schools is fairly swift and can be merciless. And they don't give you your money back. Remember that. The U.S. Federal Government isn't going to tolerate that much longer, though. Real accountability is coming. And the schools with their hands in the cookie jar will have to play ball. Otherwise, that cash gravy train they have long enjoyed is going to stop pulling into their station.

-Skip