Reapplication: Research! Clinical! Classes! Oh my!

[NonTradMed]

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Hi,

I'm still in the application process, but with no acceptances in hand, I'm going to hedge my bets and prepare for reapplication.

After being rejected from one of my schools, they gave me a number to call to ask if/what I could do to improve my application.

Two things stood out in their advice, curiously, it was in step with the advice my own school's premed committee had given me.

1. Get alot more clinical experience. I originally thought my three years being a lab assistant to a radiology researcher within a hospital would be good enough, but they thought I needed to do more direct patient to patient interaction. When I asked if I should get a research postion (like lab tech), they said it would only be looked on as a 'neutral' by med schools (at least by the 'md-only' programs). The couselor even said my clinical experience was nonexistent since I have only done a summer volunteer thing and most of my other volunteer work was tutoring for inner city kids. I did not realize that med schools are so picky about volunteer experience. Is she right? Is research/getting published looked on as neutral by MD-only programs? My own school have given me similar advice, that I need to focus on something that allows me to work with doctors and interact with patients.

2. I was told to take classes of upper level class load since my science GPA is kind of low (~3.2, although on AAMCAS, GPA calculations differs from my school and it came out to be 3.16 ).

I was uncomfortable with taking just classes and not participating in a formal program (an undergrad/masters bio/chem/etc degree). The counselor told me they don't differentiate as long as I take a 'full class load' and 'get all A's' to prove that I am capable of the work. While I'm glad I don't have to rush into a definite program, I am leery about just 'taking classes' with no purpose other than the hope that it will help me get into med school.

Is this unique to the two med school adcoms I've talked to? Or is this common knowledge to all? Are most med schools leery about seeing you take upper level biology/chemistry classes with no stated purpose (i.e no degree in mind)? Or do they only care about the marks you make on them?

I am asking on this forum because the things I want to do all pertains to reapplying to medical school, so with that idea in mind, I hope someone can answer my question. Thanks! 🙂

 

[2tall]

Not unique at all. Common problems for some applicants who don't get accepted on their first shot. I was given similar advice. I was told to take 32 to 40 hours of upper level bio classes or enroll in a master's program. I could never see myself doing research, so post-bacc work was my choice. I don't have a formal post-bacc program in my area. I just chose classes that I thought would be relevant for med school....genetics, micro, biochem, humphys, neuro, immuno, etc.

They only care about your grades, however, taking extra coursework shows your dedication toward medicine (one of my interviewers complimented me on this). I took three semesters worth of courses (9 hours each semester). This is my last semester. Thank God! I have enough interviews this year and I believe/hope/pray/know that I will be starting med school next fall.

Additionally, I retook the MCAT because I believed I could do better. The science coursework substantially improved my Biological Sciences score. I started volunteering right before I applied the first go-round. Now it's two years later and I believe my clinical experiences have given me insight in the role of a physician...it has also helped me better relate to patients and people, in general.

So go for it...enroll in some spring classes.

Good luck and it's still not too late in the game for interviews. So when they started rolling in. Be prepared. Be sharp. Sell yourself. Don't let the interviewer control the conversation. Get the message out on why you're better than anyone else they've interviewed and why you'll be a great asset to the entering class '05.

 

[Ypo.]

Your title made me laugh... "Lions, tigers and bears, oh MY!"

 

[callie]

I'm in a similar position, average grades and MCAT, but I do have clinical experience. What I was told about the clinical is that they want to see you can work with people in a medical setting. As for the volunteer work, it may not count towards clinical but I've heard that any volunteering helps. Also I was advised by a medical school to take some additional upper level science courses without being degree seeking, but I would think an actual program would look better. Take my advice with caution, I am reapplying at present 🙂 Good luck!

 

[ntmed]

I originally thought my three years being a lab assistant to a radiology researcher within a hospital would be good enough, but they thought I needed to do more direct patient to patient interaction.

I was told to take classes of upper level class load since my science GPA is kind of low (~3.2, although on AAMCAS, GPA calculations differs from my school and it came out to be 3.16 ).

I agree that your volunteer experience needs to be in a clinical environment with both patients and physicians. Try volunteering in the ER or in a heath clinic.

A 3.16 GPA is really on the border. While taking upper level classes is one way to fix things, another option might be to complete a quick master's degree.

 

[Lindyhopper]

Are most med schools leery about seeing you take upper level biology/chemistry classes with no stated purpose (i.e no degree in mind)?

Med school seem to love it when people take "extra" science courses. The dual purposes of helping you get into med school & better preparing you for success when you get there are plenty good enough reasons.
You probably want to take courses that will most directly prepare you for med school. Anatomy, physiology, biochem, genetics, cell, developemental, immuno, histology, etc.

 

[Khenon]

Along with what everyone else said, I wanted to add that research is more of myth for getting into med school. I went to a pre-med seminar thing here at Mayo (a research based school) and they said they (and most other schools) really don't care about research experience. They said it's a nice touch, but in no way replaces clinical experience (or any of the other "big" requirements). It won't hurt you to have research, but it won't really help much either (other than to add to your EC's or as a general life experience). I was dismayed, since I have a master's in molecular biology and currently am a research tech (I thought this would all be a big plus), but it's not a very big deal to adcoms. So focus on getting some genuine clinical experience via shadowing or volunteering. I think there might have been a slight exaggeration on the "alot more clinical" statement . . . you just need to show that you know what you're getting into and can interact with patients. Whether you've done that for a few months or years, doesn't matter as much. I definitely believe quality over quantity. And as far as you volunteering with the inner city kids goes, I'm sure that's a big plus. I think "shadowing" and "volunteering" are two different categories (that sometimes overlap). They want to see that you have the knowledge to know what you're getting into via shadowing (or some other clinical experience), and they want to see that you want to help your fellow man/woman/child via volunteering.

Chances are if you get some decent clinical experience in there, and take some post-bacc classes you're going to be set for reapplication. Sorry about the rant, and best of luck! 🙂

 

[NonTradMed]

Thanks for everyone's input!

Someone mentioned that volunteering is different from clinical experience. Can someone tell me what constitues 'clinical experience'? I always thought anything dealing with patients was good enough, but does it have to be witin a hospital setting? Or can it be a hospice, nursing home etc? I am undecided between hospice or free health clinic...what are people's views on that?

Also, how do people find a doctor to shadow? Where do I even start to look for possible physicians to contact for shadowing purposes?

I am also thinking about doing a 'quick' masters program. Do people think I should apply to one for next fall? I have taken all my premed requirements and will take three more upper level bio courses, but I was computer science major back in college so I'm afraid I would be ill prepared for a masters. However, I am willing to entertain the idea if people believe it will look better than just taking upper level science courses.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's comments thus far! 🙂

EDIT: I think someone should start a thread on the myths of med schools---like that research thing....everyone at my school were told that research was practically required to get into med school, looking back, I think it was the school's way to get cheap labor! 😛

 

[Khenon]

Thanks for everyone's input!

Someone mentioned that volunteering is different from clinical experience. Can someone tell me what constitues 'clinical experience'? I always thought anything dealing with patients was good enough, but does it have to be witin a hospital setting? Or can it be a hospice, nursing home etc? I am undecided between hospice or free health clinic...what are people's views on that?

Also, how do people find a doctor to shadow? Where do I even start to look for possible physicians to contact for shadowing purposes?

I am also thinking about doing a 'quick' masters program. Do people think I should apply to one for next fall? I have taken all my premed requirements and will take three more upper level bio courses, but I was computer science major back in college so I'm afraid I would be ill prepared for a masters. However, I am willing to entertain the idea if people believe it will look better than just taking upper level science courses.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's comments thus far! 🙂

EDIT: I think someone should start a thread on the myths of med schools---like that research thing....everyone at my school were told that research was practically required to get into med school, looking back, I think it was the school's way to get cheap labor! 😛

I don't think it matters where you get your clinical experience. In fact I was told (unofficially) that volunteering at nursing homes was a HUGE plus. As long as you're dealing with patients . . . that's the big thing. In terms of volunteering, you talked about the inner city kids, and that's totally valid. Granted some people will "volunteer" at a hospital, and essentially kill 2 birds with one stone. But if you have some other community service (like I mentor minority students) it looks really good to adcoms as well.

And I agree with the "myths" thread. I've heard alot of people on SDN talk about the research thing, and was stunned when I went to that talk here at Mayo. There's probably lots of that stuff that we're wasting our time on, thinking it's important when it's not.

 

[Lindyhopper]

I am also thinking about doing a 'quick' masters program. Do people think I should apply to one for next fall? I have taken all my premed requirements and will take three more upper level bio courses, but I was computer science major back in college so I'm afraid I would be ill prepared 😛

Generally, the more narrowly focused Biomedical masters or certificate programs are the preferred preparation. It is best to go to a program such as Georgetown, BU, PCOM, Drexel etc. where you can demostrate your academic prowess in classes with first year medical students. You essentially try to demonstrate that you can handle med school by taking med school courses. Of course, you also learn a hell of alot that serves you well in your first year.
It seems to me if you have the pre-regs for med school you would propably be ready for a SMP. But it is good to take as much Bio as possible, as a special masters is expensive & you do not want to come up empty handed.
P.S. What are your thoughts on "going DO."

 

[ntmed]

Can someone tell me what constitues 'clinical experience'? Also, how do people find a doctor to shadow?

In my view, the main goal for you to understand what it's like to be a physician. Because of this, you should look for settings that have both patients and physicians. This means that a nursing home, or other clinical environments without doctors present will not be as good. In a hospital, one of the best places to volunteer is the ER, clinics, and maybe post-op. The best hospitals to volunteer at are teaching hospitals. Call the volunteer coordinator at any teaching hospital, tell them you're a premed student, and ask them if what volunteer clinical opportunities they have.

Where do I even start to look for possible physicians to contact for shadowing purposes?

I asked my own physician if he knew of any doctors that allow students to shadow. He recommended one. Another option is to ask your premed advisor if your school has such a program (many colleges have programs where alumni who are MDs allow students to shadow).

I am also thinking about doing a 'quick' masters program .... I'm afraid I would be ill prepared for a masters.

Depending on the graduate degree, you might be okay. Go talk to someone in the department and see what they recommend.

 

[NonTradMed]

P.S. What are your thoughts on "going DO."

I am definitively going to apply to some DO schools next year. The reason I didn't was b/c I anticipated I would do fairly well on my MCAT and that I would be considered a decent candidate (well who knows, a school might still that! 🙂 ). I was reluctant to consider a DO at first b/c I knew so little about it, but after looking into the degree program, I see it as a possiblity in the future.

I've done hospital volunteer work, my only problem is I feel bored half the time. There's never much to be anything to do, and I do feel awkard now about volunteering with a bunch of college students (ok, I'm only 25! but I feel people might wonder why I don't get a job or something ). I've never volunteered in ER, do they usually keep you pretty busy? Just curious.....

 

[Khenon]

In my view, the main goal for you to understand what it's like to be a physician. Because of this, you should look for settings that have both patients and physicians. This means that a nursing home, or other clinical environments without doctors present will not be as good. In a hospital, one of the best places to volunteer is the ER, clinics, and maybe post-op. The best hospitals to volunteer at are teaching hospitals. Call the volunteer coordinator at any teaching hospital, tell them you're a premed student, and ask them if what volunteer clinical opportunities they have.

I would have thought the same thing, except I was told by an MSIII, who served on an adcom that they gave more "points" to someone with nursing home experience then they did to any of the other clinical experiences. I'm sure each school differs, and this is only one example, but I do believe that nursing home experience is valid. Though you're not working with a doctor, you are working with older people (something alot of people don't realize they're going to run into alot in medicine), diseased people (another shocker for some people), and you're showing a higher level of compassion (by volunteering to help the elderly). You should definitely get experience where ever you feel you're most useful and where you're getting the most out of it, but I would not dismiss nursing homes. This is straight from the horse's mouth! 😀

 

[ntmed]

I would have thought the same thing, except I was told by an MSIII, who served on an adcom that they gave more "points" to someone with nursing home experience then they did to any of the other clinical experiences. I'm sure each school differs, and this is only one example, but I do believe that nursing home experience is valid. Though you're not working with a doctor, you are working with older people (something alot of people don't realize they're going to run into alot in medicine), diseased people (another shocker for some people), and you're showing a higher level of compassion (by volunteering to help the elderly). You should definitely get experience where ever you feel you're most useful and where you're getting the most out of it, but I would not dismiss nursing homes. This is straight from the horse's mouth! 😀

That adcom person was probably reacting to the benevolent side of working in a nursing home. I agree that your volunteer experiences should demonstrate compassion and empathy. But you still need true clinical experience working along side of physicians.

 

[AwaPremed]

i have been an interpreter at hospitals and clinics across the city for the past three years. my interpreting job assigns people anywhere from the emergency room to the pediatricians office. i think it has allowed me to interact more than ever with patients and doctors. do you think that this would be considered good clinical experience because you get such a broad range of experiences and get to work one on one with doctors and patients?

 

[ntmed]

i have been an interpreter at hospitals and clinics across the city for the past three years. my interpreting job assigns people anywhere from the emergency room to the pediatricians office. i think it has allowed me to interact more than ever with patients and doctors. do you think that this would be considered good clinical experience because you get such a broad range of experiences and get to work one on one with doctors and patients?

This sounds like a great clinical experience. But just to be sure, you might want to touch base with your premed advisor.