Reason Why Military Deserves Good Docs

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Zerosixjt

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Pick up the latest edition of Esquire Magazine and read about Sgt. Brian Wells.

With significant personal strength and great medical care, he was able to survive, when everyone expected the opposite.

I'm not saying jump into military medicine, but don't close the door too soon.
 
Zerosixjt said:
Pick up the latest edition of Esquire Magazine and read about Sgt. Brian Wells.

With significant personal strength and great medical care, he was able to survive, when everyone expected the opposite.

I'm not saying jump into military medicine, but don't close the door too soon.

Im not familiar with his case at all but thats really not the point.

Of course the military members deserve good doctors. But the military members also deserve a health care setting that those good doctors are able to thrive at being good doctors. One perpetuates the other. If the work situation is pushing doctors out that does the patients no service at all. Allegance to a bad system is not being a patient advocate.
 
usnavdoc said:
Im not familiar with his case at all but thats really not the point.

Of course the military members deserve good doctors. But the military members also deserve a health care setting that those good doctors are able to thrive at being good doctors. One perpetuates the other. If the work situation is pushing doctors out that does the patients no service at all. Allegance to a bad system is not being a patient advocate.

Very true, but leaving a system for the same reasons (as valid as they may be) isn't either unless it would affect a change that would help the patients. What we need to do is to find a constructive way to start helping the problem and if that doesnt work try another way and another until its fixed. Simply washing your hands of a system that needs improvement will do no good but further deprive deserving patients of good doctors. If the vast majority of HPSP students leaving after their 4 year tour is not enough to effect a change than you or anyone else on this forum leaving will certainly not do it either.

I dont know the answer... but you better damn well believe that I will do my best to help the problems that I encounter when I do finally enter true military medicine. I may fail (many of you have probably done your best and also failed or, more hopefully, had minor success before leaving) infact odds are in favor of my failure... but almost every advance we have in society as a whole is based on an exponentialy greater amount of failures.
 
Improvement is not going to come from within...to many fiefdoms controlled by people with rank who do nothing but trying to gain more rank.

Improvement needs to come from outside consultants....like how it works in the civilian sector....is that going to happen....NEVER...as long as there are people taking the HPSP scholarship and matriculating at UsuHS.

So when will that happen....when 95% of HSPS scholarships go unfilled...when 95% of the slots available at USUHS go unfilled....when there are no military physicians to fill ANY billets....when they have STOP LOSS everyone who is elgible to get out...That is the only way the military is going to get its act together and create a good medical system for its people.
 
militarymd said:
Improvement is not going to come from within...to many fiefdoms controlled by people with rank who do nothing but trying to gain more rank.

Improvement needs to come from outside consultants....like how it works in the civilian sector....is that going to happen....NEVER...as long as there are people taking the HPSP scholarship and matriculating at UsuHS.

So when will that happen....when 95% of HSPS scholarships go unfilled...when 95% of the slots available at USUHS go unfilled....when there are no military physicians to fill ANY billets....when they have STOP LOSS everyone who is elgible to get out...That is the only way the military is going to get its act together and create a good medical system for its people.



Very well said brother 👍
 
militarymd said:
So when will that happen....when 95% of HSPS scholarships go unfilled...when 95% of the slots available at USUHS go unfilled....when there are no military physicians to fill ANY billets....when they have STOP LOSS everyone who is elgible to get out...That is the only way the military is going to get its act together and create a good medical system for its people.

It'd be nice if it came to that, then the powers that be would be forced to make changes.

Unfortunately, regarding USUHS, there will always be people who would rather go to medical school and put up with the BS than keep their sanity and not become physicians.

Edit to celebrate 100+ posts.
 
Civilian medicine is not that far behind in pulling 9G's as it swirls down the drain. Once the libs get a hold of congress this year, and the presidency in 08, look out. Socialized medicine is on the way. Once that happens, I am moving to Costa Rica or New Zealand!! If I have to deal with a no incentive to work, inefficienct, burdensome, cheap, and lazy person ladden system, I am going to do it in paradise!
 
Capt_Mac said:
Civilian medicine is not that far behind in pulling 9G's as it swirls down the drain. Once the libs get a hold of congress this year, and the presidency in 08, look out. Socialized medicine is on the way. Once that happens, I am moving to Costa Rica or New Zealand!! If I have to deal with a no incentive to work, inefficienct, burdensome, cheap, and lazy person ladden system, I am going to do it in paradise!


Australia is a good choice...Although you can make a ton of money in Saudi
 
Capt_Mac said:
Socialized medicine is on the way. Once that happens, I am moving to Costa Rica or New Zealand!!
Ironically, both New Zealand and Costa Rica have socialized medicine as well.
 
Capt_Mac said:
Civilian medicine is not that far behind in pulling 9G's as it swirls down the drain. Once the libs get a hold of congress this year, and the presidency in 08, look out. Socialized medicine is on the way. Once that happens, I am moving to Costa Rica or New Zealand!! If I have to deal with a no incentive to work, inefficienct, burdensome, cheap, and lazy person ladden system, I am going to do it in paradise!

Good Point! I strongly agree. Universal Health Careand socialized medicine is in the future: it's inevitable. Liberals will soon defeat capitalism and freedom to choose one's health care. They will defeat the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies, chasing pharmaceutical research out of the country all in the name of equality. Being a physician will no longer be attractive to many of the best and the brightest students: they will choose other professions that are more financially rewarding and less bureaucratic .

In the words of Michael Savage, "Liberalism is a mental disorder."
 
Capt_Mac said:
Civilian medicine is not that far behind in pulling 9G's as it swirls down the drain. Once the libs get a hold of congress this year, and the presidency in 08, look out. Socialized medicine is on the way. Once that happens, I am moving to Costa Rica or New Zealand!! If I have to deal with a no incentive to work, inefficienct, burdensome, cheap, and lazy person ladden system, I am going to do it in paradise!

I am afraid you are right and it scares me. Can you imagine Tricare expanded to include every living person in the U.S? What a nightmare.
 
militarymd said:
Improvement is not going to come from within...to many fiefdoms controlled by people with rank who do nothing but trying to gain more rank.

Improvement needs to come from outside consultants....like how it works in the civilian sector....is that going to happen....NEVER...as long as there are people taking the HPSP scholarship and matriculating at UsuHS.

So when will that happen....when 95% of HSPS scholarships go unfilled...when 95% of the slots available at USUHS go unfilled....when there are no military physicians to fill ANY billets....when they have STOP LOSS everyone who is elgible to get out...That is the only way the military is going to get its act together and create a good medical system for its people.

well said
 
militarymd said:
Improvement is not going to come from within...to many fiefdoms controlled by people with rank who do nothing but trying to gain more rank.

Improvement needs to come from outside consultants....like how it works in the civilian sector....is that going to happen....NEVER...as long as there are people taking the HPSP scholarship and matriculating at UsuHS.

So when will that happen....when 95% of HSPS scholarships go unfilled...when 95% of the slots available at USUHS go unfilled....when there are no military physicians to fill ANY billets....when they have STOP LOSS everyone who is elgible to get out...That is the only way the military is going to get its act together and create a good medical system for its people.
It's already here. U.S. Military is all voluntary so if you don't want to "serve" then you are not required to...unlike rest of the world.
Your theory is not practical, spoken like true individual who never set a foot in other "parts" of military. Many prior service (enlisted and officer) go into USUHS or HPSP for patriotic reason ? so at least all of USUHS slots will go filled. Believe or not life as military officer (physician)...this hardship as you recalled cannot even compare to the life as infantry enlisted solidier. 😉 If you theory is true there should be much more massive exodus at other parts (non-medical) of military...
 
island doc said:
I am afraid you are right and it scares me. Can you imagine Tricare expanded to include every living person in the U.S? What a nightmare.

I had a little bit of vomit come up into my mouth after reading this one. Just the very thought of that horrific statement is making me sick

:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:
 
haujun said:
It's already here. U.S. Military is all voluntary so if you don't want to "serve" then you are not required to...unlike rest of the world.
Your theory is not practical, spoken like true individual who never set a foot in other "parts" of military. Many prior service (enlisted and officer) go into USUHS or HPSP for patriotic reason ? so at least all of USUHS slots will go filled. Believe or not life as military officer (physician)...this hardship as you recalled cannot even compare to the life as infantry enlisted solidier. 😉 If you theory is true there should be much more massive exodus at other parts (non-medical) of military...


Thanks for the refreshing reminder and support fro those of us living on the "non-medical" side of the military.
 
haujun said:
It's already here. U.S. Military is all voluntary so if you don't want to "serve" then you are not required to...unlike rest of the world.
Your theory is not practical, spoken like true individual who never set a foot in other "parts" of military. Many prior service (enlisted and officer) go into USUHS or HPSP for patriotic reason ? so at least all of USUHS slots will go filled. Believe or not life as military officer (physician)...this hardship as you recalled cannot even compare to the life as infantry enlisted solidier. 😉 If you theory is true there should be much more massive exodus at other parts (non-medical) of military...

the concern we physicians have about military medicine has virtually nothing to do with "hardships" as you state. It is about patient safety, proper training, and doing things the right way.

there is also a difference between the "infantry" person and the physician, and that is whom has the responsibility. As the physician, it is my name, my license, and my responsibility on the care that is given. If a mistake is made, it will be my career, my repuatation and my record that will note the mistake, not my commanders. This is very different from the level of responsibility that the infantry person has.

As physicians, we have all had long work hours along the way, from med school through residency etc. The physicians on this site I doubt would mind so much long hours if we had a decent healthcare system to work with. But a seriously flawed militray system is one that most physicians will leave asap. And they are.
 
USAFdoc said:
the concern we physicians have about military medicine has virtually nothing to do with "hardships" as you state. It is about patient safety, proper training, and doing things the right way.

there is also a difference between the "infantry" person and the physician, and that is whom has the responsibility. As the physician, it is my name, my license, and my responsibility on the care that is given. If a mistake is made, it will be my career, my repuatation and my record that will note the mistake, not my commanders. This is very different from the level of responsibility that the infantry person has.

As physicians, we have all had long work hours along the way, from med school through residency etc. The physicians on this site I doubt would mind so much long hours if we had a decent healthcare system to work with. But a seriously flawed militray system is one that most physicians will leave asap. And they are.

Maybe I am stupid...but I still don't understand HOW posting all these negative posts to lower the HPSP/USUHS participation rate will make decent healthcare system in the military. The tragedy is that you left the military b/c you gave up on your soldiers when you could have climbed the rank to bring about the real changes for them. Perhaps that called for too much sacrifices? Or better yet, you had no faith in the military for a change. Still sad.

When I served as a NCO in the military medicine over four years I encountered many problems in the military medicine. But I still have a "faith" to bring about changes in the military. Sure it is so much easier and tempting to post my personal complaints here and get out to "warn" others. All of you (Galo, USAF, MilMD) state that I blindly accept the military just because I do not take part in this miltary bashing. You are so wrong. I have a "faith" in my abilities to make improvements in the military. Without this faith...you are just a civilian doc that happend to wear a BDU for four years.
 
haujun said:
Maybe I am stupid...but I still don't understand HOW posting all these negative posts to lower the HPSP/USUHS participation rate will make decent healthcare system in the military. The tragedy is that you left the military b/c you gave up on your soldiers when you could have climbed the rank to bring about the real changes for them. Perhaps that called for too much sacrifices? Or better yet, you had no faith in the military for a change. Still sad.

When I served as a NCO in the military medicine over four years I encountered many problems in the military medicine. But I still have a "faith" to bring about changes in the military. Sure it is so much easier and tempting to post my personal complaints here and get out to "warn" others. All of you (Galo, USAF, MilMD) state that I blindly accept the military just because I do not take part in this miltary bashing. You are so wrong. I have a "faith" in my abilities to make improvements in the military. Without this faith...you are just a civilian doc that happend to wear a BDU for four years.

Imagine that there may be more to your success than the purity of your will. Opportunity isn't something you make any more than it is something you find. For me, opportunity was better outside the military. When it was time for me to do the rest of my residency training, I left, and with no regrets.

For many, being in the military is not necessarily the most desirable place for the production of one's life's work, even if you find your service term pleasant and fulfilling. Just because I had ideas on how to improve the delivery of healthcare and to make the military a more attractive place for good doctors to work doesn't mean I was obligated to beat my head against the walls trying to deliver the message to people who couldn't have cared less.

You seem to imply that frustrated professionals have some duty to remain for the sake of the institution and those who might benefit by their improvements, should they ever come to pass. I disagree. A working life is only so long, and time is precious. There is nothing dishonorable about moving on when you feel that your work and ideas are not appreciated. You are wrong, even out of line, for suggesting otherwise. Being a "lifer" in the military is not an implied badge of virtue, either.
 
haujun said:
Maybe I am stupid...but I still don't understand HOW posting all these negative posts to lower the HPSP/USUHS participation rate will make decent healthcare system in the military.
haujun said:
You sure seem to be taking that path.

By posting our experiences, we are hoping others will not want to go down that path, and in turn make the leadership, (generals, goverment officials, ect) realize that they have a HUGE problem, and they have to do something drastic to change it. Whether that happens or not, we'll have to see.

But blind allegiance to a mediocre dying system, is not helping anybody.
 
haujun said:
Maybe I am stupid...but I still don't understand HOW posting all these negative posts to lower the HPSP/USUHS participation rate will make decent healthcare system in the military. The tragedy is that you left the military b/c you gave up on your soldiers when you could have climbed the rank to bring about the real changes for them. Perhaps that called for too much sacrifices? Or better yet, you had no faith in the military for a change. Still sad.

When I served as a NCO in the military medicine over four years I encountered many problems in the military medicine. But I still have a "faith" to bring about changes in the military. Sure it is so much easier and tempting to post my personal complaints here and get out to "warn" others. All of you (Galo, USAF, MilMD) state that I blindly accept the military just because I do not take part in this miltary bashing. You are so wrong. I have a "faith" in my abilities to make improvements in the military. Without this faith...you are just a civilian doc that happend to wear a BDU for four years.

Maybe you are stupid, I don't know you.

I think you have to realize that NO ONE who goes into military medicine will EVER reach a level to affect real change. Micro change, unit level change, maybe. But it's all finger in the **** stuff. Let's say that even you make it to the Surgeon General level. Guess what, forces greater than the Surgeon General are making decisions on how assets and money are allocated for military medicine. No amount of 'faith' on your part will change this.

The military can, and has changed, in the past. There are many examples. Too many Surface Warfare types getting out? Wow - here come huge bonuses, and changes in inport duty sections (going from 3 section to 6+ section in port probably had more to do with morale than any monetary change). These changes happened when I was a SWO. I remember some people I served with saying that nothing would ever change, it was the way the military had always done things, blah blah blah. Well, then came a huge personnel crisis, with mass exodus, and JUST LIKE MAGIC . . . a whole new paradigm from the top.

This has absolutely nothing to do with wanting the best care for soldiers, sailors and marines. No one on this board would ever want anything but the best for them. As cliche as this sounds, sometimes you have to reach rock bottom before you can start to heal. Unfortunately, I think that is where military medicine is heading. I think some of the motivation for these posters is the belief that getting to 'the bottom' more quickly will result in BETTER care in the long run. And creating a crisis in military doctor recruiting is just what is needed.

Oh, and get over your holier than though 'I'm more patriotic than you' attitude. You don't have any more claim to honorable service than someone who faithfully carried out duty to their country for many years. Just because they aren't cheerleaders for a broken system doesn't make them unpatriotic. Going against the grain takes more courage than hiding behind the flag.
 
haujun said:
The tragedy is that you left the military b/c you gave up on your soldiers when you could have climbed the rank to bring about the real changes for them.
Hold on ...

Despite their dissatisfaction with the system, they did their time honorably and chose to take their careers in another direction when their obligation was up. They deserve our respect and gratitude for their service; they don't deserve to have their character or motives in leaving military service questioned.
 
chopper said:
Maybe you are stupid, I don't know you.

I think you have to realize that NO ONE who goes into military medicine will EVER reach a level to affect real change. Micro change, unit level change, maybe. But it's all finger in the **** stuff. Let's say that even you make it to the Surgeon General level. Guess what, forces greater than the Surgeon General are making decisions on how assets and money are allocated for military medicine. No amount of 'faith' on your part will change this.

The military can, and has changed, in the past. There are many examples. Too many Surface Warfare types getting out? Wow - here come huge bonuses, and changes in inport duty sections (going from 3 section to 6+ section in port probably had more to do with morale than any monetary change). These changes happened when I was a SWO. I remember some people I served with saying that nothing would ever change, it was the way the military had always done things, blah blah blah. Well, then came a huge personnel crisis, with mass exodus, and JUST LIKE MAGIC . . . a whole new paradigm from the top.

This has absolutely nothing to do with wanting the best care for soldiers, sailors and marines. No one on this board would ever want anything but the best for them. As cliche as this sounds, sometimes you have to reach rock bottom before you can start to heal. Unfortunately, I think that is where military medicine is heading. I think some of the motivation for these posters is the belief that getting to 'the bottom' more quickly will result in BETTER care in the long run. And creating a crisis in military doctor recruiting is just what is needed.

Oh, and get over your holier than though 'I'm more patriotic than you' attitude. You don't have any more claim to honorable service than someone who faithfully carried out duty to their country for many years. Just because they aren't cheerleaders for a broken system doesn't make them unpatriotic. Going against the grain takes more courage than hiding behind the flag.

He has said this much more eloquently than I, but that is how I feel....it needs to crash and burn to a crisp, so that it can be remade.
 
militarymd said:
He has said this much more eloquently than I, but that is how I feel....it needs to crash and burn to a crisp, so that it can be remade.

As a military flight surgeon departing the pattern at my End-of-Obligation due to the exigencies of multiple life circumstances, I have something to offer here. The military certainly deserves good docs, and it has many. Those that like their jobs do it with heart. They love the patient population. They thrive on the sense of purpose. Many times, I have even felt this way. Let's face it. For some, military medicine is more than enjoying the highest prestige, having the coolest technology, or making the most money. These would do it even if the pay decreased and the workload increased and the support staff didn't support. Many simply feel called, and that's fine. The military needs people like that.

But the military has obvious and major flaws. CHCS II/ALHTA is a joke, so far, with no light at the end of the tunnel (oh, but all the censored service newsletters rave about it!). Never mind that it makes you spend half your day in front of a computer screen, not seeing patients. Also, the pay structure and retirement structure is not competitive (except perhaps for FP, peds, and residents). There is no ability to hire and fire help; the bureaucracy is ridiculous. Opportunities to change the system, as stated elsewhere in this string, are near absent (you have to change it from outside the system, with political pressure, where you can really get to the top brass). The experience and training is dismal; I went my entire Navy internship without intubating or running a code, not by choice! I haven't done a central line since med school, where I did PA caths, IJs, and sutured closed the scalp of a child surgically treated for scaphocephaly -- working mms from his dura! My step 3 took a dive compared to my steps 1 and 2!

Perhaps the part I dislike the most is you can find yourself in a position where you don't feel very useful but you can't leave, not even to interview for residency, not even to see your twins born during deployment, not even when you have colleagues -- other military doctors -- offering to fill in for you, all because it wouldn't be "fair" to the junior enlisted folks, not because the line command actually needs you. You become a politico-leadership "pawn." "Doctor" says less about your position than does "Junior Officer." Call me a non-patriot for wanting to get out. I have a family to take care of, and my military leaders got in the way of that. Who wouldn't leave from my position? Now I look forward to the freedom to interview when I need to, to take jobs wherever necessary to pay the bills, and to get the training I want in the location I want, and to see and hold my new beautiful family. And after it all, I hope to run into patients who serve or served in the service, because they really are a unique and wonderful bunch. I'll never forget that. I'd love to go to Iraq to support them, but it would mean another year or two of putting off residency due to lost interview opportunities. That, and a really unhappy CINC House.

So, here's how the military will get good docs: The military will outsource all of its medical training, except for some uniquely military training such as C4 and other select courses (MTM, SERE, etc, which I have to say have been quite well done). It will outsource medical care that does not need to be done by military deploying doctors (peds, tele-rads, most OB, many nonsurgical subspecialists). It will look for the doctors who are experienced in big trauma, ortho, I.D., etc., to recruit with civilian or short-term active duty contracts. The military will get out of the business of residency training, except for select rotations. It will choose fully-trained and board certified doctors (or else PAs and NPs) to do its deployment medicine. The medical record system will be made web-based, accessible anywhere, with dictation support and a single central digital scan location somewhere in BFE, North Dakota, for all specialty care reports to be uploaded into that electronic system (fewer lost reports). The career active duty military doctor pool would be shrunk down to a selective group of future leaders of a joint medical command, transcending the traditions and boundaries of the 4 services (and that part is actually talked about, thankfully, although reality is a long ways off). And leaders would be sought and cultivated and selected, not just chosen because they're the only ones that stuck around after the self-respecting doctors moved on. That's my vision. Maybe someone else can make it happen.
 
The military will outsource all of its medical training, except for some uniquely military training such as C4 and other select courses (MTM, SERE, etc, which I have to say have been quite well done). It will outsource medical care that does not need to be done by military deploying doctors (peds, tele-rads, most OB, many nonsurgical subspecialists). It will look for the doctors who are experienced in big trauma, ortho, I.D., etc., to recruit with civilian or short-term active duty contracts. The military will get out of the business of residency training, except for select rotations. It will choose fully-trained and board certified doctors (or else PAs and NPs) to do its deployment medicine. The medical record system will be made web-based, accessible anywhere, with dictation support and a single central digital scan location somewhere in BFE, North Dakota, for all specialty care reports to be uploaded into that electronic system (fewer lost reports). The career active duty military doctor pool would be shrunk down to a selective group of future leaders of a joint medical command, transcending the traditions and boundaries of the 4 services (and that part is actually talked about, thankfully, although reality is a long ways off). And leaders would be sought and cultivated and selected, not just chosen because they're the only ones that stuck around after the self-respecting doctors moved on.

A man with a vision !
 
Cathance said:
So, here's how the military will get good docs: The military will outsource all of its medical training, except for some uniquely military training such as C4 and other select courses (MTM, SERE, etc, which I have to say have been quite well done). It will outsource medical care...

Did you ever have the pleasure of using a NMCI computer? NMCI did exactly what you suggested and look what happened...
 
IgD said:
Did you ever have the pleasure of using a NMCI computer? NMCI did exactly what you suggested and look what happened...


Its all in the contract. The military went with the lowest bidder and got the lowest services. You get what you pay for. You are forgeting the the DOD agreed to NMCI with its present contract and all its problems. They didnt have to.
 
HPSP and FAP are essentially the same thing.....Low bid contracts with students who don't know any better.

Students sign without knowing any better, and wind up in a system that doesn't allow physicians to do their jobs.

It's time for people to STOP taking these "contracts" and have make the military renegotiate.
 
militarymd said:
HPSP and FAP are essentially the same thing.....Low bid contracts with students who don't know any better.

Students sign without knowing any better, and wind up in a system that doesn't allow physicians to do their jobs.

It's time for people to STOP taking these "contracts" and have make the military renegotiate.


What is your view on the existence of USUHS for the purpose of improving military medicine? I think there was a debate about eliminating the school in the past however...

In the labor market when the supply of these HPSP students declines the military will most likely just increase the "wage" to increase the number which won't affect or improve the the "system."
 
haujun said:
What is your view on the existence of USUHS for the purpose of improving military medicine? I think there was a debate about eliminating the school in the past however...

In the labor market when the supply of these HPSP students declines the military will most likely just increase the "wage" to increase the number which won't affect or improve the the "system."

Increasing the wage is a short term fix to a long term problem.

The year I was getting out, they offered me $50,000 in the form of a MSRB in an attempt to keep guys like me....guess what....it didn't retain anybody.

All it did was waste money on folks who were going to "stick it out" already.
 
haujun said:
What is your view on the existence of USUHS for the purpose of improving military medicine? I think there was a debate about eliminating the school in the past however...

In the labor market when the supply of these HPSP students declines the military will most likely just increase the "wage" to increase the number which won't affect or improve the the "system."

USUHS is a source of young physicians that the services have the privilege of using as they please for the longest amount of time of service repayment as the current methods of recruitment and contracting allow. I don't believe there is any inherent quality to USUHS particularly that is likely to improve military medicine. If you want to think cynically, you could speculate that the length of commitment required of USUHS graduates actually ******s improvement, since those graduates have a longer wait before they can exit the service. If USUHS graduates could walk as early as HPSP graduates, there would really be a crisis. There would have to be more concrete steps than the knuckleheaded head-scratching that has so far been passing for a strategy to improve recruitment and retention. The Navy would especially be in the hurt locker, and rightfully so.

Increasing the wages isn't the only answer to the services' physician retention problems. Even by matching civilian wages--practically impossible for some specialties--there still leaves the difference in working conditions and the satisfaction that derives from the relatively greater freedom to choose where and with whom to work that is always available to the civilian practitioner. What price do you put on the diminishment in personal satisfaction that comes with having to work in an organization that has a grudging and peevish disrespect for doctors and expresses that disrespect by chronically poor support and disregard for ordinary and expected standards of education, training and practice? To many--especially to those who have left for civilian opportunities--no amount of money is adequate to compensate for that.

Even at this late date, there is little indication that the services have even the capacity for institutional reflection that would show some possibility for self-improvement. It may just be beyond them. In that case, the assessment should be hired out, to RAND, or a major university, someone hopefully who doesn't have a stake in the status quo.

I'll give them a start: quit lying to your people. Quit selling the HPSP scholarships--and I mean the Navy particularly, since they are the most egregious offender--as a source of training to medical students who want to be trained. Quit making promises that your institution provides adequate support for GME and CME when it so obviously and for so long has done a shamefully poor job of doing either. Quit lying to your beneficiaries by placing them under the care of incompletely trained physician GMOs who all too frequently have no adequate professional support and then slyly suggest that things are acceptable by declaring that your institutions have met JCAHO standards and that all your doctors are licensed. Decent people do not enjoy working for institutions for which they have little respect. Poor pay, inappropriate personnel management, denial of support, poor leadership and all the other major and minor problems of the military medical service only serve to hasten the exit of doctors who have already decided they can't get away from military medicine fast enough.
 
The year I was getting out, they offered me $50,000 in the form of a MSRB in an attempt to keep guys like me....guess what....it didn't retain anybody.

What is a MSRB?

Does anyone have any idea what the Navy is gonna do with GME for the 2009 class...I heard a few months back that they only filled 1/3 of their HPSP spots.

rotatores
USUHS 2006
 
rotatores said:
What is a MSRB?

Does anyone have any idea what the Navy is gonna do with GME for the 2009 class...I heard a few months back that they only filled 1/3 of their HPSP spots.

rotatores
USUHS 2006


Medical (Specialist?) Retention Bonus,

i.e.:" here is some U.S. taxpayer money you can have if you agree to stay working with us, even though we know it isn't close to making up the difference between what we pay and what you could get elsewhere, and even though you aren't treated very well in the military in the first place." It's a miserable concession to someone with one foot out the door.
 
The way the MSRB was worded makes me wonder who came up with it.

1) beyond initial service committment
2) minimum 10 years? AD time
3) extends AD time committment by 1 year

So pretty much folks who met the above criteria who were going to go...did n't take it.

The ones who took it were going to stay anyways.

Many who wanted it...the ones who were still in payback mode and short on cash were wililing to take it and add one year (whats one year , right?) ....were not eligible.

Needless to say...the MSRB was a flop.

All it did was give a relatively big bonus to folks who were going to stay anyways....makes me wonder who came up with it....I suspect the ones who were going to stay anyways, and because of the shortages....found a way to manipulate the system into giving them more money for nothing.
 
haujun said:
The tragedy is that you left the military b/c you gave up on your soldiers when you could have climbed the rank to bring about the real changes for them. QUOTE]

Hey Brother, that smarts a bit. I didn't give up on "my soldiers" when I enrolled in ROTC after college only to have my MSIII instructor tell me that a micky mouse ROTC FTX was more important than my finals. The military is a monolithic organization and doesn't value "people." Never has, never will, and it will continue to suffer until the the draft is reactivated, which unfortunately will never happen. Yes, you can make a difference to soldiers immediately under you, but realistically what are you really going to do?

I applaud the prior service folks who return to be a military doctor, but I didn't sweat through six years of school to go back and be treated like an item from CIF.
 
I'm a prior service postbacc and can say that haujun is not grounded in reality. This is not my perception of reality but the reality that is military medicine. There is no amount of rank one can attain as a physician that will help your troops. The only thing you can do is help the ones you are with and that is only for the length of time you are there. Once you leave the new doc will have their own ideas and we troops hope and pray it's someone grounded in reality and not souped up on hoorah nonsense.

I've worked with great docs who did make changes at the battalion level. Other docs were only worried about getting into residency and others had completely written off the military and were looking to get out and start residency.

The real tragedy is the ridiculous idea that the physicians need to band together and revolt from within to make it better. This does not happen. Massive defections without replacements are what the military listens to. The Army's mistake is now opening the door to civilian PA's and lowering the standards so that there are PA's going where physicians should go. In the military's eyes this is of no consequence because at least the troops have someone with some medical training.

This is not a dig on military PA's. This is a dig on the military's system of just providing a body. In the end everyone suffers except the general/admiral who made the decision. They never suffer. Don't believe it? Go work at a military hospital when a star is coming for an appt....no wait times, no wait times for consults, no shortage of medical support.....until they retire. :meanie:
 
chrisjohn said:
haujun said:
The tragedy is that you left the military b/c you gave up on your soldiers when you could have climbed the rank to bring about the real changes for them. QUOTE]

Hey Brother, that smarts a bit. I didn't give up on "my soldiers" when I enrolled in ROTC after college only to have my MSIII instructor tell me that a micky mouse ROTC FTX was more important than my finals. The military is a monolithic organization and doesn't value "people." Never has, never will, and it will continue to suffer until the the draft is reactivated, which unfortunately will never happen. Yes, you can make a difference to soldiers immediately under you, but realistically what are you really going to do?

I applaud the prior service folks who return to be a military doctor, but I didn't sweat through six years of school to go back and be treated like an item from CIF.
Forget premed courses, take some English classes...dude
Your point?
 
Croooz said:
There is no amount of rank one can attain as a physician that will help your troops. The only thing you can do is help the ones you are with and that is only for the length of time you are there. Once you leave the new doc will have their own ideas and we troops hope and pray it's someone grounded in reality and not souped up on hoorah nonsense.

The real tragedy is the ridiculous idea that the physicians need to band together and revolt from within to make it better. This does not happen. [/QUOT

Okaaay...
 
fdonkor said:
Croooz said:
There is no amount of rank one can attain as a physician that will help your troops. The only thing you can do is help the ones you are with and that is only for the length of time you are there. Once you leave the new doc will have their own ideas and we troops hope and pray it's someone grounded in reality and not souped up on hoorah nonsense.

The real tragedy is the ridiculous idea that the physicians need to band together and revolt from within to make it better. This does not happen.

Okaaay...
Your point? As a premed unless you are prior service you have no clue about military medicine. Your belief is no doubt an Admiral can affect change in military medicine......show me 1 that has made lasting positive change.
 
fdonkor said:
chrisjohn said:
Forget premed courses, take some English classes...dude
Your point?


DUDE, I've already matriculated.

My point is the military doesn't value the person, just their current skill set.
 
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