Reasonable Annual Collections?

[KMack17]

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Hey everyone, I'm evaluating a few job offers and the incentive plans seem to be the biggest difference. What do you guys think would be a realistic expectation for what I would collect in my first year?

The practice I'm looking at is a multi-specialty surgical group with 3 surgeons. They're looking to add a pain doc to do their procedures. Their expectations are to have me working 40 hours/week all outpatient with a focus on procedures, mostly TFE's, dicos, RFA's, and occasional stim trials.

Is 600K-800K of collections reasonable with those work hours or would I need to put it more hours to get to that benchmark?

Thanks for your input.

 

[ziggyziggy]

hey everyone, i'm evaluating a few job offers and the incentive plans seem to be the biggest difference. What do you guys think would be a realistic expectation for what i would collect in my first year?

The practice i'm looking at is a multi-specialty surgical group with 3 surgeons. They're looking to add a pain doc to do their procedures. Their expectations are to have me working 40 hours/week all outpatient with a focus on procedures, mostly tfe's, dicos, rfa's, and occasional stim trials.

Is 600k-800k of collections reasonable with those work hours or would i need to put it more hours to get to that benchmark?

Thanks for your input.

pm

 

[Dr. Ice]

Hey everyone, I'm evaluating a few job offers and the incentive plans seem to be the biggest difference. What do you guys think would be a realistic expectation for what I would collect in my first year?

The practice I'm looking at is a multi-specialty surgical group with 3 surgeons. They're looking to add a pain doc to do their procedures. Their expectations are to have me working 40 hours/week all outpatient with a focus on procedures, mostly TFE's, dicos, RFA's, and occasional stim trials.

Is 600K-800K of collections reasonable with those work hours or would I need to put it more hours to get to that benchmark?

Thanks for your input.

Big question for you..what percentage of the collections are these guys willing to pay you? You can easily get to 600 - 800k collections but if they are only paying you 30% of what you collect over a certain amount...you may as well start looking somewhere else

 

[KMack17]

Ha! How did you guess?

Base in the low 200's with 30% of collections after doubling my base salary.

 

[Dr. Ice]

Ha! How did you guess?

Base in the low 200's with 30% of collections after doubling my base salary.

Thats how they f*** us...if youre in the NE..you will end up making about 250k/year which is average for pain docs (non anesthesia) in the area

 

[KMack17]

Thats how they f*** us...if youre in the NE..you will end up making about 250k/year which is average for pain docs (non anesthesia) in the area

Good to know. The other offer I have is for a higher base, but minimal incentive. 600K in collections seems to be about where the 2 offers would be equal. Anything beyond that and I should see more with the more aggressive incentive plan.

 

[Dr. Ice]

Good to know. The other offer I have is for a higher base, but minimal incentive. 600K in collections seems to be about where the 2 offers would be equal. Anything beyond that and I should see more with the more aggressive incentive plan.

this is the game..they will dick around with your base/collections so that it will be tough for you to make more than 250k/year unless you bust your ass. The flip side is a built in referral and an 8-5 m -f job which is pretty good all things considered.

 

[KMack17]

this is the game..they will dick around with your base/collections so that it will be tough for you to make more than 250k/year unless you bust your ass. The flip side is a built in referral and an 8-5 m -f job which is pretty good all things considered.

Thanks for your input. That seems to be spot on with what I'm seeing out there.

 

[W222]

Thats how they f*** us...if youre in the NE..you will end up making about 250k/year which is average for pain docs (non anesthesia) in the area

Is this really how bad the NE is? I was hoping to move back, but this type of salary may change things.

 

[Dr. Ice]

Is this really how bad the NE is? I was hoping to move back, but this type of salary may change things.

If you are planning on moving to NYC, Phil or dc then yes...unless you do a lot of fraudulent billing which could change the numbers anywhere.

Or..I guess it's possible that I'm just getting horse f'ed

 

[W222]

If you are planning on moving to NYC, Phil or dc then yes...unless you do a lot of fraudulent billing which could change the numbers anywhere.

Or..I guess it's possible that I'm just getting horse f'ed

Don't plan on going to any of those places.

 

[ziggyziggy]

Big question for you..what percentage of the collections are these guys willing to pay you? You can easily get to 600 - 800k collections but if they are only paying you 30% of what you collect over a certain amount...you may as well start looking somewhere else

So, if someone is paid 250 and average benefits, how much should be the decent collection % and the incentive threshold?

 

[Dr. Ice]

So, if someone is paid 250 and average benefits, how much should be the decent collection % and the incentive threshold?

250 is a good base if thats what it is. I think anything less than 40% collections is kinda bs..but that base is probably higher than most (speaking strictly from my knowledge of the NE) so that should be taken into consideration. The ideal would be to start production over 2x your base pay..but I live in a less than ideal world so I dont know

 

[ziggyziggy]

250 is a good base if thats what it is. I think anything less than 40% collections is kinda bs..but that base is probably higher than most (speaking strictly from my knowledge of the NE) so that should be taken into consideration. The ideal would be to start production over 2x your base pay..but I live in a less than ideal world so I dont know

continuing in similar vein, how much should this percent should be in terms of billing? (Its imp for me because that's going on my job contract !)

I am assuming average collections are 50-60% of billing and if 40% of collections is a good starting point, then around 24% for billing should be a good number too

 

[SSdoc33]

continuing in similar vein, how much should this percent should be in terms of billing? (Its imp for me because that's going on my job contract !)

I am assuming average collections are 50-60% of billing and if 40% of collections is a good starting point, then around 24% for billing should be a good number too

i dont think you get it, ziggy. it all depends on WHAT YOU BILL FOR EACH PROCEDURE. the percent of collections is dependent on how much you inflate your billings. you are not gonna get a true answer here until you do some more homework on your end.

 

[ziggyziggy]

i dont think you get it, ziggy. it all depends on WHAT YOU BILL FOR EACH PROCEDURE. the percent of collections is dependent on how much you inflate your billings. you are not gonna get a true answer here until you do some more homework on your end.

I get it. sorry for pissing you off. I realize how complicated this system is, when its difficult for guys like you to explain it to newbies.
I need another medical school to learn this or maybe I need to screw myself for another four years to understand all the variables and constants.

How the hell we created system so complex, yet so worthless and still continue to follow it? I don't think any other business system will take this kind of abuse? High overheads, such low collections and highly skilled work. 👎

Try giving 100 dollar for 400 dollar sunglasses and still be able to sue the maker for breaking it when u were driving 65, high on MJ !!!!!

 

[facets]

r we back to my ex's sunglasses
It would not have been so bad if it were not for the whole collection of 15 pairs, 1 for each outfit. WTF, how many pairs of sunnglasses does 1 person need

 

[Ducttape]

I get it. sorry for pissing you off. I realize how complicated this system is, when its difficult for guys like you to explain it to newbies.
I need another medical school to learn this or maybe I need to screw myself for another four years to understand all the variables and constants.

How the hell we created system so complex, yet so worthless and still continue to follow it? I don't think any other business system will take this kind of abuse? High overheads, such low collections and highly skilled work. 👎

Try giving 100 dollar for 400 dollar sunglasses and still be able to sue the maker for breaking it when u were driving 65, high on MJ !!!!!

Do you have a dedicated biller that works for you?

second, if you are starting out, maybe you should ask for a set amount based on wRVUs rather than % billing. that way you dont have to worry specifically about what each insurer will pay, and worry more about the work you do.

 

[inspire004]

What difference does it make wrvu and % billing, I have a doc I am working with who just wants to pay me % of my net collections,in the end it is how much you take home after all the calculations
I agree we need to understand the math.

 

[SSdoc33]

I get it. sorry for pissing you off. I realize how complicated this system is, when its difficult for guys like you to explain it to newbies.
I need another medical school to learn this or maybe I need to screw myself for another four years to understand all the variables and constants.

How the hell we created system so complex, yet so worthless and still continue to follow it? I don't think any other business system will take this kind of abuse? High overheads, such low collections and highly skilled work. 👎

Try giving 100 dollar for 400 dollar sunglasses and still be able to sue the maker for breaking it when u were driving 65, high on MJ !!!!!

please. i get pissed off when its cloudy. or when i see a commercial i dont like.

the system is absolutely ridiculous. the only real way to have a good idea of exactly what you can expect to be making is if your employer completely opens their books to you. good luck with that. in many way, it is a leap of faith. try to put yourself in the best position with as much knowledge as possible. thats pretty much all you can do.

 

[Ducttape]

What difference does it make wrvu and % billing, I have a doc I am working with who just wants to pay me % of my net collections,in the end it is how much you take home after all the calculations
I agree we need to understand the math.

the difference is that you can better calculate on your own how much you might be able to take home, as each procedure has a set wRVU, rather than how much is taken in % billing. In % billing, i would have had to determine how much each procedure was coded for and billed for, which insurance company it was to determine how much would get paid, then rely on someone else to collect the money, and take home that percentage.

I decided on a wRVU model so that i dont have to worry that stuff. its much easier to corroborate what i did, to get what i should be paid for.

i mean technically, if the guy doesnt want to pay you, he will say "sorry, we just didnt collect a lot from your work, and NO you cant look at my books", vs. "well, I have to pay you this much because you have documentation and can calculate that you did x amount of wRVUs"...

 

[inspire004]

Thanks duct tape, it was an eye opener, i am guessing it will give more idea about his exact profit above the overheads. I looked online for wrvu calculation and it does include the overheads.

So if he says your net collections are poor, I don't have any defense. I am thinking I should include wrvu into my contract so that I get paid. Do most contracts have that included. I have to get in touch with biller and ask for those details.

Do all your partner do this calculation or are you solo and that is why you use wrvu model

 

[inspire004]

Just making sure that new grads and those looking get a 'ball park' figure. When I initially was trying to negotiate, I didnt have anyone to really bounce ideas off of. In fact, initially a group had offerred 50 or so . Here's what I would tell the new grad/job looker

50--avg
60-good
70+ --above avg
80-- definitely a gem.

Also, make sure your wRVU isnt divided between insured and medicaid. This way there's no cherry picking and you dont have to care what type of insurance people have.

I think this info is helpful to those looking because it gives MDs something to go off. Far too often, I see MDs getting low balled by admin and other MDs.[/QUOTE]

Found this on the forum by pinch and burn

Asking an employer better wRVU makes more sense than % of net collection. Dont know how it will work for a start up practice with no good numbers.

 

[CATS22]

I apoogize if this has been addressed elsewhere. But to keep things simple what would be a fair percentage of total collections that you would like to go home with? For example if you collected 1million what would you like to go home with before taxes. 40% = 400k? This is an employed position.

Moreover, how many procedures per week and/ or patients seen in clinic (actually an ASC) would one need to reach 1 million in collections. I realize it varies by region, payor mix, billing ... This is southeast with average payor mix.. Just looking for how busy one will need to be...

Thanks.... Newbie...

 

[DJF688]

If you are doing your procedures in an ASC, in order to reach $1,000,000 in collections based upon your professional service fees and E+M you will probably not be running the kind of practice that I would want to be a part of. Hitting 1M in an office based setting where you get a bundled fee is very feasible if you work hard.

Going home with 50% of collections is a reasonable ball park figure, but will vary. If you run a high volume practice with lots of help your total might be higher though your percentage is lower. If it is you and 2 MA's practicing out of a closet your percentage might be higher, but your total income lower.

Personally, I would not work for 40% of collections UNLESS it was temporary and part of a track to partnership. If this is a permanent employed position, 50% or hit the road.