Reasonable or no?

[clausewitz2]

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Right now, I'm in my third year of a Ph.D. in cognitive neuroscience, with a strong focus in neurolinguistics, and my program should be wrapped up by the end of my fifth year (my department is pretty ruthless about easing people out who go over this deadline). I have come to the realization over the past couple weeks that I genuinely do not give a crud about most of the stuff I am expected to get excited over and be interested in as a cognitive neuroscientist; I am tired of having to think and argue about things that I am not sure are real.

I have, however, had the opportunity to do some research with collaborators at NIH (including the chief of a section) on a patient with a very interesting language-related neurological disorder, and will be presenting this research at a couple of fairly prominent international conferences and have published a review article on another, different language-related neurological disorder. When I think about why I got into this racket in the first place, it's mostly because I am fascinated by neurological disorders, and it was the easiest way to get there from an undergraduate background that began in the humanities (long story).

I have decided that I would honestly prefer to be a neurologist and get to work with disordered patients all the time rather than only occasionally as a great and special privilege, and I think I would rather be involved in treatment/clinically applicable research rather than basic science. I don't so much care if the theories under which I operate on a day to day basis are flawed in some way, provided they allow one to actually DO something with them.

So, long-winded, I know. here's the gist: I have read the posts on this forum pretty extensively, and here's my situation. I will be turning 25 when I finish my Ph.D, and have no pre-existing student debt. I am not quite sure what my undergraduate GPA is, simply because I went to a British university for undergrad (got a first, if anyone is familiar with the translation). Haven't done MCATS or the prereq courses yet, but am fairly confident that I can do well on said courses and have opportunities to take them while in grad school. Not so much worried about LORs or explaining why I want to switch at this point (can hold forth for AGES on the topic). My major weakness is, of course, lack of shadowing/volunteering/patient experience.

Assuming that I don't run screaming after getting such patient experience, is this a non-crazy idea? Yes, I know doing it after a Ph.D. is suboptimal, but I'm hesitant to abandon the Ph.D. at this point, particularly because I just received a sizeable training grant that will be helpful in saving up some for living expenses in med school.

Any advice would be most appreciated, like how will my weird GPA affect my chances? What sorts of ECs should I specifically seek out, and how much? What things should I emphasize in interviews given that backstory?

 

[clausewitz2]

I have deduced from this forum that it probably doesn't matter so much, but my graduate GPA (barring a truly horrific catastrophe) will probably end up as a 4.0. And if anyone can help me translate the UK grade, it's Oxbridge and honours.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I manged to gain admission with a British undergraduate degree and U.S. graduate degrees in 2005 (MSIV now). It's possible.

There is no easy way to convert a British honours degree classification into a U.S. undergraduate GPA. It can't be done fairly, and medical schools don't understand it. Many won't deal with it. However, three things will help: U.S. prereq's (sounds like you're taking care of that), a green card or U.S. citizenship, and a high MCAT score. Here is an old post that might help: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=4597614#post4597614

Welcome, and good luck!

 

[clausewitz2]

U.S. citizenship isn't a problem, as I am one. Guess I need to get working on coursework and MCATs...

 

[Scottish Chap]

Make sure you complete all the required prerequisite coursework before attempting the MCAT. You want to take the test only once when you are most prepared. Many people under-estimate the test based on past experiences, practice test scores etc.

Also, I forget to mentioned the volunteer/paid work around clinicians (sounds like you are making progress with that, though). That is as important as grades and MCAT scores. And, for goodness sake, don't quit grad school at this stage. That would be bad.

 

[clausewitz2]

Yeah, given that I think I can get my grad program to pay for some of the prereqs (bio and physics for sure), I'm not planning on going anywhere until I'm officially a pretend doctor.

 

[clausewitz2]

Given the above-described situation, I'm worrying a bit about finishing graduate school AND doing all my prereqs AND getting sufficient volunteer experience. I've been told that medical schools like to see at least a year's worth of volunteer experience, but it looks like I might be doing my clinical-volunteer experience as an EMT (going to start training soon). Given the intensity of EMT work (v. more traditional hospital volunteers who fold linens and what not), is there any trade-off with the amount of time spent volunteering required?

 

[student1799]

Given the above-described situation, I'm worrying a bit about finishing graduate school AND doing all my prereqs AND getting sufficient volunteer experience. I've been told that medical schools like to see at least a year's worth of volunteer experience, but it looks like I might be doing my clinical-volunteer experience as an EMT (going to start training soon). Given the intensity of EMT work (v. more traditional hospital volunteers who fold linens and what not), is there any trade-off with the amount of time spent volunteering required?

Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that adcoms do pay attention to the "quality" of your volunteer experience, so a situation where you have more direct patient contact (like EMT work) would trump one where you have less. But no, in the sense that if the overall amount of volunteer time is deemed too little, it won't really matter exactly how it was spent.

My #1 suggestion for you would be to take it slowly: plan to do your prereqs over two years rather than one (which will help your grades anyway), and build in a few hours a week of volunteer time from the start. Bear in mind that the time you spend in EMT TRAINING (which is about 150 hours where I live) isn't counted as volunteer experience, whereas you could get credit for that time if you used it in a capacity that didn't require training before you get started. (In fact, that 150 hours is a pretty typical amount of volunteer experience for a lot of traditional premeds, although I'd recommend that you get more than that in order to show your commitment to medicine.)

I got my EMT license and ended up not using it, because the volunteer ambulance company I signed up for (the only one in my area) worked only on weekends, and the shifts were 12 hours (pretty typical for EMT work), which was tough on my family. I volunteered in a hospital ED instead, and had an outstanding experience. This was much more convenient than the EMT job, because the hospital was right next to the school where I was doing postbacc, and I could fit my 4-hour volunteer shifts in between classes. (I did 2 of these a week.) Not only that, after a few months of working conscientiously at a "linen folding" type of job, I found out about an excellent clinical research program for students, where I spent 4 semesters and had a ton of patient contact and high-quality experience.

So, even though EMT work might seem more interesting to you at this stage, I'd recommend hospital work instead, particularly in the ED. (EDs are great for nontrad volunteers because they're open 24/7/365, so you can volunteer at odd times if that suits your schedule.) Pick a busy hospital, beaver away at your assigned lowly tasks (and even better, take the initiative to find jobs for yourself to do that don't require supervision), and I bet that more interesting jobs will come your way. Even if they don't, you'll still get to see a lot, and adcoms will give you more "commitment" brownie points for putting in 500+ hours in a hospital than, say, 150 hours as an EMT. (I know it sounds cynical, but in med school admissions, when there's a choice between quantity and quality, quantity generally wins. Besides, you really WILL see and learn more in those 500 hours just by being around, provided you keep your eyes and ears open.)

 

[dragonfly99]

internal medicine doc here:
Agree with the above post about favoring hospital volunteer work over EMT work. EMT is a big commitment, and for many people it's a career. You have to ask yourself whether doing this EMT training along with still trying to finish a PhD AND take med school prerequisite courses AND study for the MCAT is doable. Not that being an EMT wouldn't be great experience, but I'm not sure it's worth the opportunity cost. I would only favor it if you wanted to be an ER doc, in which case it might be worth it.

Agree w/above advice about not underestimating the MCAT. Many people have done so and been burned by it. Remember it is a multiple guess exam with a lot of time pressure, and should be studied for as such. It's quite a different test than many liberal arts college or grad school examinations, which are often essay tests that concentrate on one having to explain broad-based concepts and knowledge. I'm sure you can do it, but don't underestimate the exam.

Agree with taking the prerequisite college courses here in the US...at least start taking the chem and physics, including organic chemistry. I think it will take 2 years (or going on that) to do it right. I don't see how you can do it in less time while doing a PhD.

p.s. we really, really need more good neurologists and psychiatrists, so I think someone like you is sorely needed as medical doctor. I hope that you do it. And I wouldn't worry about being 25 (or 27, or whatever) when you start med school. That's common. You don't want to put it off too long, but don't rush either.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm another PhD-to-MD (currently in my third year of med school). Just wanted to agree with the above two posts, which are chock-full of great advice. I also wanted to make sure you know about the physician scientist forum (scroll further down the page of forum listings and you'll find it). I have a sticky in there with links to threads of interest to PhDs thinking about med school. You can also find the link to that sticky in the sticky at the top of this forum. Oh, and I have to object to your calling yourself a pretend doctor when you finish your PhD. To my mind, I already *was* a real doctor before I started medical school. Now I'm just playing at being a doctor. Hey, they don't call med school an undergraduate education for nothin'. 😉

 

[Law2Doc]

p.s. we really, really need more good neurologists and psychiatrists, so I think someone like you is sorely needed as medical doctor.

The number of funded residency slots dictates whether we have more of these specialties, not applicants to med school. I don't think there's an issue of filling the number of slots available such that there's an active solicitation of "more" of any particular field, except perhaps rural medicine or working with the underserved. So while the OP might have a pre-existing draw to a particular specialty given his prior background, let's not get carried away with the "sorely needed" terms. From what I can tell from my peers, both these fields are experiencing somewhat of a popularity resurgence, as the current generation is seeking more lifestyle oriented fields.

I also note that what specialty one enters med school thinking they want to do bears little resemblance to what they actually decide to do well over half the time.

 

[clausewitz2]

I was always going to be taking at least two more years to finish my pre-reqs, as that's how long I've got in my grad program, and so long as I'm in said program, I won't have to pay for the pre-reqs. I hadn't thought about the tradeoff between EMT and volunteering in the ED before; thanks to the posters who brought that up.

It sounds like the local volunteer company is a bit more flexible with scheduling than the 12-hour-shifts-only-on-weekends that one of the posters mentioned, but I'm going to do a ride-along tomorrow that should allow me an opportunity to clear that up. My problem vis a vis volunteering at a hospital is the fact that I have no car, and thus am dependent on a not-especially-good system of public transit to get to any hospitals, whereas the EMT company is based within a five minute walk of my house. With transit time and cost, I'm wondering if the EMT doesn't still work out to be more advantageous.

But I'll take all the above caveats into account when considering whether or not to commit to this or to go the ED route instead.

Question for the poster who mentioned the student research volunteer program he lucked into it - would that count clinical volunteering? Because I should have no problems getting clinical research experience; I just thought that wouldn't count towards the volunteering requirement.

 

[student1799]

I was always going to be taking at least two more years to finish my pre-reqs, as that's how long I've got in my grad program, and so long as I'm in said program, I won't have to pay for the pre-reqs. I hadn't thought about the tradeoff between EMT and volunteering in the ED before; thanks to the posters who brought that up.

It sounds like the local volunteer company is a bit more flexible with scheduling than the 12-hour-shifts-only-on-weekends that one of the posters mentioned, but I'm going to do a ride-along tomorrow that should allow me an opportunity to clear that up. My problem vis a vis volunteering at a hospital is the fact that I have no car, and thus am dependent on a not-especially-good system of public transit to get to any hospitals, whereas the EMT company is based within a five minute walk of my house. With transit time and cost, I'm wondering if the EMT doesn't still work out to be more advantageous.

But I'll take all the above caveats into account when considering whether or not to commit to this or to go the ED route instead.

Question for the poster who mentioned the student research volunteer program he lucked into it - would that count clinical volunteering? Because I should have no problems getting clinical research experience; I just thought that wouldn't count towards the volunteering requirement.

On the advice of a former adcom who looked at my app, I did 2 entries on AMCAS for the program: 1 as "clinical experience" and 1 as "research experience." For each one, I put the TOTAL # of hours (440) and stated that it included both clinical and research, and described the clinical part or research part (respectively) of the program.

Since this was a really meaty program where I put in a lot of time, and I have some additional hours as a garden-variety volunteer, I figure that covered all the bases.

In general, anything involving patients--including clinical research--counts as clinical volunteer experience. (You can decide whether to put it under "clinical" or "research," depending on the individual circumstances.) Lab research doesn't count as clinical, because you have no contact with patients.

P.S. Me = "she." 🙂

 

[clausewitz2]

Ah, terribly sorry - hope my unconsciously sexist pronoun usage wasn't incredibly offensive! I really ought to know better...

 

[clausewitz2]

Just to make sure I'm straight on this - taking undergraduate science classes while in graduate school will count towards my UGPA, right? This is particularly crucial for me as I work through the pre-reqs because I have essentially no UGPA to begin with (went to a foreign school as noted above, and am advised of difficulties in getting those marks to count for anything).

If they don't count, I guess I will have to wait until I'm no longer a graduate student to take prereqs, which would suck, as I would have to pay for (more of) them myself.

 

[dragonfly99]

clausewitz
Yes, as long as you take classes that are undergrad (rather than taking, say, graduate level biology) the classes will count toward your undergrad GPA (in your case, they alone will *be* your official undergraduate GPA.

r.e. lawdoc's post,
Of course I know that the number of residency spots throughout the country if fixed. However, I would still argue that there is a relative shortage of psychiatrists and neurologists, particularly outside of large cities but also in some other places. I know that for pediatric psych there is a definite shortage, to the point that areas that are not even rural or inner city have been designated "underserved areas" which are allowed to hire foreign physicians here on visas. Also, many psych programs are filling mostly or partly with FMG's, which shows that they are having trouble getting American grads to fill them. One can also sometimes find open spots in neurology (i.e. outside the official residency selection system) and I know that the neurologists at both large academic medical centers where I've trained would actively try to recruit med students into neurology because they didn't get that many applicants. You don't really see this happen much (or even at all) in areas like derm or radiology, where there are so many students who want to get in already. These were both hospitals that would be considered among the top 30-40 or so academic med centers in the country.

My main point was not that someone would create a neurology residency spot for clausewitz or that he would never ever change his mind, but that neurology and/or psych are areas where people are looking for good medical students to recruit and that if he does choose one of those areas as a specialty, I would expect him to do well as far as finding a residency as long as he doesn't totally screw up in med school.

 

[clausewitz2]

Bit of a concern, then, given the preceding answers; I'm currently taking an undergraduate class (not a prereq, a course on mathematical modeling in biology), and it looks like I'm going to be finishing out with a solid B, largely due to my not having put much effort into it in the first part of the semester (because I did not then plan to do the med school thing seriously, and nobody cares about grades in graduate programs in my field).

Normally, wouldn't be a problem, since I'd have other undergraduate courses to swamp that out, and if my transcript wasn't foreign, they certainly would - but at the moment, that is the entirety of my uGPA. How worried should I be about this, given that I'm sure this will not be the hardest of the classes I will need to take before applying? (I'm looking in your direction, organic chemistry!)

 

[Scottish Chap]

Bit of a concern, then, given the preceding answers; I'm currently taking an undergraduate class (not a prereq, a course on mathematical modeling in biology), and it looks like I'm going to be finishing out with a solid B, largely due to my not having put much effort into it in the first part of the semester (because I did not then plan to do the med school thing seriously, and nobody cares about grades in graduate programs in my field).

Normally, wouldn't be a problem, since I'd have other undergraduate courses to swamp that out, and if my transcript wasn't foreign, they certainly would - but at the moment, that is the entirety of my uGPA. How worried should I be about this, given that I'm sure this will not be the hardest of the classes I will need to take before applying? (I'm looking in your direction, organic chemistry!)

I honestly wouldn't panic. You don't need to be perfect, but you don't want to leave too many hanging threads of doubt either. Make sure that you're aware of the average GPA and MCAT for accepted local applicants, and try to get at least to that level. Keep in mind that medical schools care WAY more about an undergraduate GPA and very little about a graduate GPA. Good luck!

 

[clausewitz2]

nope