Which most accurately describes your involvement in each of these activities?

  • I like volunteering and would do it even if it didn’t help me get into med school.

    Votes: 72 55.4%
  • I don’t like it, but am willing to put up with it because it will help me get into med school.

    Votes: 45 34.6%
  • I can’t stand volunteering, and I won’t do it even though it may help me get into medical school.

    Votes: 4 3.1%
  • I like research and would do it even if it didn’t help me get into medical school.

    Votes: 57 43.8%
  • I don’t like it, but am willing to put up with it because it will help me get into medical school.

    Votes: 48 36.9%
  • I can’t stand research, and I won’t do it even though it may help me get into medical school.

    Votes: 12 9.2%
  • I like doing community service and I would do it even if it didn’t help me get into medical school.

    Votes: 61 46.9%
  • I don’t like it, but am willing to put up with it because it will help me get into medical school.

    Votes: 35 26.9%
  • I can’t stand it, and I won’t do it even though it may help me get into medical school.

    Votes: 11 8.5%

  • Total voters
    130

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I am writing a paper on the pre-med experience and am interested in getting honest responses to question I have posed. Thank you very much for your help.
 

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Let me clarify: by "volunteering", I mean medically related, such as in a hospital or clinic setting. By "research," I am referring to both basic science as well as clinical. By "community service," I am referring to non-medically related volunteering such as mentoring children or volunteering at the homeless shelter.
 

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I love volunteer work and community service, and would be involved with both even if it didn't help me get into med school. I've been doing community service since I was a kid. It's something that I'm very passionate about. When I first got on here and saw people talking about only doing community service/volunteer work because they had to to get into med school, it really surprised me. I guess it still kind of surprises me that community service and social justice mean so little to some people. I don't have anything against those people, it just surprises me. As far as research goes, I assist researchers in my job, but I don't actually do research. I enjoy my job though.
 
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I like volunteering or community service, but only if it involves something that requires me to think. Mundane BS (read as: "typical premed") stuff, like taking BPs or dispensing lice shampoo at a free clinic isn't something I would do. If you're talking about firefighting or volunteer EMS (the latter is boring most of the time, but there's at least a chance of seeing something interesting), try and stop me from doing it, since I've been doing it for 10+ years.

I happen to like research and would continue to do it even if I were not trying to get into medical school.

The one thing I will not do is shadow. It is just ridiculous and kind of belittling for someone with my background to have to do that.

I guess it still kind of surprises me that community service and social justice mean so little to some people.
"Social justice" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's just a PC way of saying: "No, you don't have to work hard. If you fail in life, it's not your fault, we'll catch you, give you a handout and then you can blame it on racism, bias, or some other reason beyond your own lack of drive, intelligence, or work ethic."
 

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I like volunteering or community service, but only if it involves something that requires me to think. Mundane BS (read as: "typical premed") stuff, like taking BPs or dispensing lice shampoo at a free clinic isn't something I would do. If you're talking about firefighting or volunteer EMS (the latter is boring most of the time, but there's at least a chance of seeing something interesting), try and stop me from doing it, since I've been doing it for 10+ years.

I happen to like research and would continue to do it even if I were not trying to get into medical school.

The one thing I will not do is shadow. It is just ridiculous and kind of belittling for someone with my background to have to do that.


"Social justice" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's just a PC way of saying: "No, you don't have to work hard. If you fail in life, it's not your fault, we'll catch you, give you a handout and then you can blame it on racism, bias, or some other reason beyond your own lack of drive, intelligence, or work ethic."

Hey welcome back!
 

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I am writing a paper on the pre-med experience and am interested in getting honest responses to question I have posed. Thank you very much for your help.

One option that I did not have is ... I liked volunteering (i.e., at a hospital, etc.), but I would not have done it if it wasn't something I had to do as a suggested pre-med activity. Volunteering (in a hospital, hospice, etc.) turned out to be much better than I expected (I was able to observe what goes on in a Cath lab or ER for example, enjoyed providing companionship to people who are dying); however, I couldn't see myself volunteering at a hospital if I didn't need to learn about being a physician. In life you have to make choices, and there are things I enjoy that I don't normally have time for.

The other items were activities I enjoy and do anyway.
 

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"Social justice" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's just a PC way of saying: "No, you don't have to work hard. If you fail in life, it's not your fault, we'll catch you, give you a handout and then you can blame it on racism, bias, or some other reason beyond your own lack of drive, intelligence, or work ethic."

Social justice means equal rights, opportunities, protections, and obligations for all.... and you are kidding yourself if you think we live in a society where that exists.
 

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Social justice means equal rights, opportunities, protections, and obligations for all.... and you are kidding yourself if you think we live in a society where that exists.
I don't believe it exists, but I also don't believe it can exist in a society, at least not for very long. The stronger and more capable class(es) of people will eventually get tired of the poor, weak and stupid suckling their teat and shake them off like a dog shaking off an infestation of fleas. One can only hope that when that inevitably happens that there is minimal bloodshed.

Of course, I also don't believe that it is a much of a problem in our society as you would like us to believe.
 

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Maybe I misunderstood you, but are you saying that all people who are discriminated against are "poor, weak and stupid?"

I agree that it is more prevalent, and definitely more obvious, in other countries. I do however believe that it is a serious problem in our society. I respect your opinion, and your right to have that opinion. I disagree though. Here are some reasons why I believe it is a serious issue:

- Gay rights. Couples do not have certain rights such as the ability to visit their partner in a health-care facility, give informed consent for treatment, make funeral arrangements, etc, just because they are not heterosexual.

- In WA state (not the only state, however it is still illegal in 15) the legislature refuses to even hold a hearing on any bills that would put a cap on predatory lending (or make it illegal again). Currently, pay day lenders charge interest rates of 400% and higher on pay day loans, except to people in the military. There is a 36% cap on lending to military personnel. Military personnel are still targeted by lenders though.

-Women still only make about 76 cents to every dollar a man makes. That number is lower for minority women.

-Welfare payments are calculated using an old system. They only take in to account what is needed to barely scrape by, and they do not provide child care allowances (which here in seattle can cost around 1200 per month for two kids), yet we expect people to save money and get off of welfare. We also require people to work to receive TANF. Here (not all states, but many) do not consider going to school/getting an education a form of work, yet again we expect people to be able to get off of welfare when they can only get a minimum wage job. In fact, I know of people who have had to drop out of school or face losing welfare. There are also some crazy requirements for welfare recipients such as the family cap (limits number of children).

-Here in seattle it is illegal to stand in the same place, or sit or lay down on the sidewalk between the hours of 7am and 9pm. This specifically targets homeless people. I could go run outside right now and sprawl out on the sidewalk of a busy street, and no one would say anything to me simply because I don't look homeless. If you look homeless, you get harassed by the police. I work out on the streets with homeless teenagers and this is something I see just about every night I'm out there. Also, there are shelters here in seattle that consider taking a shower a privilege. If one person in the shelter screws up, ALL people in the shelter lose this "privilege."

I could go on and on. You can believe whatever you want to believe, I was simply saying that it surprises me that people don't take more of an interest in it.
 

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Here in seattle it is illegal to stand in the same place, or sit or lay down on the sidewalk between the hours of 7am and 9pm. This specifically targets homeless people.

I think it's a great idea to run the homeless off from the streets....I don't see why you're throwing such a hissy fit over it. If it were up to me, I'd round them all up, scrub them, spray with delousing agents, let them sober up, issue them work clothes and put them to work doing something constructive with their time. Especially the young ones.....

If you look homeless, you get harassed by the police.

Then I guess that should be Heloise's helpful hint for today: "Don't look homeless". :laugh:

I agree with you on the gay rights and lending issues, but the welfare issues, I say that increasing the payments will just give those people more reason to remain on welfare. Personally I think you should force those on welfare to work on road construction and other manual labor jobs to either recoup some of the costs they burden society with or to encourage them to find better work. The few who are ACTUALLY unable to do such work can be put to work at a desk job or something similar.

BTW, as for the "working, having a family and going to school at the same time is too much" argument....I don't think you'll find many non-trads here who will not scoff at that. As I said before....people who want to improve their stead in life, find a way. Those who want to sponge off of society, tend to spend their time finding an excuse.
 

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-Here in seattle it is illegal to stand in the same place, or sit or lay down on the sidewalk between the hours of 7am and 9pm. This specifically targets homeless people. I could go run outside right now and sprawl out on the sidewalk of a busy street, and no one would say anything to me simply because I don't look homeless. If you look homeless, you get harassed by the police. I work out on the streets with homeless teenagers and this is something I see just about every night I'm out there. Also, there are shelters here in seattle that consider taking a shower a privilege. If one person in the shelter screws up, ALL people in the shelter lose this "privilege."

i too would like to see the homeless off the streets, but i had this experience in a mall last week that's similar to this. it is a pretty upscale mall, and i was there in a common area studying for like 2 hours, and nobody harassed me. a guy who "looks homeless" walks into the same area, sits down, and then a good 10 minutes later the security guards are coming out, with handcuffs(!), telling the guy that "this place is for people who are here to shop, that's it." i couldn't concentrate after that, because the way he was treated disgusted me so much. i mean, i get sick of getting hassled by the homeless all the time, but i never forget that they, too, are human.
 
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Living in a much more socialist country, I am disgusted by the welfare system. I have seen it happen with many people on welfare who simply sit at home and watch Jerry Springer all day, while they take a portion of my paycheque. While I am an avid supporter of social programs to help those who are at a disadvantage, I am really against welfare. If unemployment is an issue, instead of just throwing money at unemployed people, why not employ them to do a job FOR that money? Of course lots of people are unable to work due to physical disabilities, but there's always some sort of job we can find them to do. The welfare system we have in our respective countries is not helping out disadvantaged people, it is helping out lazy people.
 

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I think it's a great idea to run the homeless off from the streets....I don't see why you're throwing such a hissy fit over it. If it were up to me, I'd round them all up, scrub them, spray with delousing agents, let them sober up, issue them work clothes and put them to work doing something constructive with their time. Especially the young ones.....
I agree. :D Why do we have to see them lying on the street, begging for money. They can make that money if we walk by with a pair of gloves, a garbage bag, and tell them to start cleaning up our city. I love the homeless guys that walk around collecting recyclable cans, and I respect them for working for their money.
 

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I love the homeless guys that walk around collecting recyclable cans, and I respect them for working for their money.
True....I was going to actually suggest bumfights as a great way to put the homeless to work and entertain the masses at same time (I was watching American Dad on DVD earlier) but I figured that might offend the hippies amongst us. :laugh:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihqfRKQ5Qxg[/YOUTUBE]
 

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Just because you push the homeless people off of the streets, or stop looking at them, does NOT mean they stop existing. It may make you (and by that I mean people in general) feel better, but it doesn't do anything to actually end homelessness. As etf said, they are humans too, and they deserve to be treated like it.

As far as putting the homeless to work.. I would love to see you do that one. You can't get a job if you are homeless (not to mention most homeless people don't have id, ss card, birth certificate, etc). You can't get a home without a job.

Honestly, when I was younger, I use to think social justice wasn't much of an issue in our society. I NEVER understood the argument that welfare encourages people to be lazy or stay on welfare though. First of all, there is a time limit on welfare. In some programs such as wep in ny, many jobs ARE manual labor jobs. I have never ever met a person who wanted to be on welfare. How can we honestly expect people to get off of welfare if they don't have the ability to save anything? I completely understand having to work and go to school, I've worked two jobs since my senior year in high school just to support myself. I however, am not a single mother. I also have a high school diploma, so I've been able to get higher than minimum wage jobs.

Unemployed people don't just have money thrown at them. To receive welfare, you must have a job. To get unemployment benefits, you must be actively looking for a job (and you must prove that you are applying for jobs and going in for interviews), and you must have already had a job and not left it voluntarily. There is also a limit on the compensation you receive that is figured out by your previous wage.

As for "bum fights"... I hope you never end up in a situation where you are in need of any social services, and believe me, I've worked with many many people are hard working and had something out of their control run their life into the ground - Katrina anyone?
 

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True....I was going to actually suggest bumfights as a great way to put the homeless to work and entertain the masses at same time (I was watching American Dad on DVD earlier) but I figured that might offend the hippies amongst us. :laugh:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihqfRKQ5Qxg[/YOUTUBE]

Ha... 'I even put out some nice mixed nuts....NO! THOSE ARE FOR PEEEOPLE.'
 

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As far as putting the homeless to work.. I would love to see you do that one. You can't get a job if you are homeless (not to mention most homeless people don't have id, ss card, birth certificate, etc). You can't get a home without a job.

You missed the part about rounding them up, disinfecting them and then using them as laborers on TVA style public works projects apparently......

not to mention most homeless people don't have id, ss card, birth certificate

When we round them up, fingerprint them....I would imagine most of them have some manner of record to help ID them.

As etf said, they are humans too, and they deserve to be treated like it.
Agreed, but if you expect them to be treated like the rest of us, they should be expected to conform to the same standards as the rest of us.

Unemployed people don't just have money thrown at them. To receive welfare, you must have a job.
Then to explain to me all the unemployed welfare recipients I've dealt with over the years.....normally (and admittedly anecdotally) they are fat, unkempt, breed like sewer rats, and bitch that society doesn't hand them out enough to maintain their coke/booze/cigarette/Twinkie and Ding-Dong/all of the preceding habit. I could also claim a predisposition to such behavior among those who are minorities, but that would be profiling and profiling's wrrrrrooooooong (also I deal with a lot of white trash in this area).

As for "bum fights"... I hope you never end up in a situation where you are in need of any social services, and believe me, I've worked with many many people are hard working and had something out of their control run their life into the ground - Katrina anyone?
Oh yes.....and the decision to live BELOW SEA LEVEL in an area prone to HURRICANES had nothing to do with what happened to them. Let's not forget a lot of your "hard working" people were the same ones looting, pillaging and generally causing havoc after the disaster occured. You don't hear people in tornado prone areas bitching for weeks on TV when their city is completely flattened and dozens die. As a witness to the May 1999 outbreak in the OKC area, I can state the people in that area (and if you've ever been to rural OK, it's not exactly affluent) did not take it as a carte blanche to steal anything and everything that wasn't bolted down. They helped themselves, and they helped each other......maybe because most of them didn't have bull**** claims of racism to fall back upon.

I NEVER understood the argument that welfare encourages people to be lazy or stay on welfare though. First of all, there is a time limit on welfare. In some programs such as wep in ny, many jobs ARE manual labor jobs.
Yes, but then people just tend to bounce from one support check to another and back again......that is if a state even has such rules (some don't)

I have never ever met a person who wanted to be on welfare.

Ever heard of selectional or observational bias?

Honestly, when I was younger, I use to think social justice wasn't much of an issue in our society.
:laugh: And you're what? 20? 21?

I completely understand having to work and go to school, I've worked two jobs since my senior year in high school just to support myself. I however, am not a single mother.
You're preaching to a single parent, just so you know.
 

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As far as putting the homeless to work.. I would love to see you do that one. You can't get a job if you are homeless (not to mention most homeless people don't have id, ss card, birth certificate, etc). You can't get a home without a job.
I think you missed the whole point of rounding them up and putting them to work, as DKM said. As for the home part, they can spend their money to fulfill their drug addiction instead of paying for rent; that's their decision. Give them the options for drug rehab, but if they want to spend it on whatever drugs, then that's their choice. As long as they are getting decent money from working instead of begging on our streets and assaulting people, then that's fine with me. I don't claim to know why they're on the streets, and I'm sure I sympathize with a lot of their stories, but the point is that they're at rock bottom and somebody has to push them back in line. Letting them lie there on the streets every day doesn't solve anyone's problem.
 

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Maybe I don't understand your new program... you are going to work them during the day, then put them back out on the streets at night? What about the ones who have mental health issues and can't afford help or are fearful of help? And what about the ones that don't want to be in your program? Are you just going to arrest them for doing nothing wrong and put them in your program? Also, are you going to pay them $8 an hour? That's what it costs to barely scrape by in Seattle as a single person, no kids.

I never said there weren't some people who try to abuse the system, but they are in the minority. You can't judge everyone because of the actions of some people. That goes for what happened in the south as well. Do you seriously believe that everyone who was effected by that was a looter? The reason you believe minorities have a predisposition is because of institutional and gendered racism, so I really am not surprised you (or anyone else for that matter) believes that.

That's great that you are a doing well as a single parent. Kudos to you for supporting your family and pursuing medical school, that's seriously awesome. Some people don't do so well unfortunately. My point wasn't that all single parents need to go on welfare. My point was that some people on welfare have many things going against them in their attempt to get off of welfare (the goal of the program). If you are a single parent, don't have a high school diploma, lack employment skills (don't know how to get or keep a job, don't have any technical skills, are illiterate, etc), don't have a support system, etc, it is going to be a lot harder to work full-time (or find a job due to being illiterate, no skills, etc), go to school, go to required classes for receiving welfare, etc. The childcare that people on TANF qualify for is subsidized care. It can be extremely difficult to find child care during the day, let alone child care for attending night classes. If you don't have a support system (ie someone who will watch your kids while you are at school) it adds to it. My point is that there is no reason why people shouldn't be able to receive TANF while they are in school/technical program so that they can a better job and get off of welfare. There is still a time limit on receiving the benefits, so it wouldn't change anything except that maybe that person can get a job that pays enough to support their family. Really this doesn't matter though. We have a fundamentalist perspective here, and therefore we will always have people on welfare. We need them to be on welfare, and we trap people in poverty.

My goal in my orignal statement was not to change anyone's views on social justice. I doubt anything I would ever say would change your mind, and that's ok. You are entitled to your opinion. I respect you even though you don't respect me.
 

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Maybe I don't understand your new program... you are going to work them during the day, then put them back out on the streets at night?
We house them in exchange for working....as for the schizos and other delightful individuals, there's always medication followed by institutionalizing them (something I think we should go back to regardless)

And what about the ones that don't want to be in your program? Are you just going to arrest them for doing nothing wrong and put them in your program?
Well, basically they would not have a choice. But the last time I checked, possession of drugs, public intox, urinating in public, disturbing the peace, vagrancy, trespassing, panhandling, theft, assault, resisting arrest and numerous other things the many homeless do on a regular basis are crimes.

Also, are you going to pay them $8 an hour? That's what it costs to barely scrape by in Seattle as a single person, no kids.
Who said anything about paying them even that much? I figured cleaning them up, giving them a place to live temporarily and allowing them to sober up and get the drugs out of their system would be repayment enough, along with something like $5 an hour that goes into a fund to provide for their housing once they leave the program. Once they have done that and they can find a better job, then they can go on about their merry way.

The reason you believe minorities have a predisposition is because of institutional and gendered racism, so I really am not surprised you (or anyone else for that matter) believes that.

And I'm not really surprised that you can't determine a sarcastic response.....albeit one grounded in a small degree of reality- the most vocal tended to be the *****s who stayed behind to loot.....it just happens that NO is the "chocolate city". If it had been East Bumblehump, Louisiana (I had to make up somewhere because I can't think of a city where the overwhelming majority of the poor people are white) where most of the idiots who stayed behind were white, I'm sure they probably would have looted too.

I respect you even though you don't respect me.
I respect you....I just think you are a fool for believing that the current attempts at dealing with the homeless, even if applied on a nationwide scale, would produce any sort of a meaningful positive result. You also seem a little naive but that should change as you get older......good luck :thumbup:
 

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I never said the current attempts at dealing with homelessness would produce any results, even if implemented nationwide. In fact, I think I said some of the current practices in seattle are a reason I think social justice doesn't exist in our society. I never shared my plan to end homelessness with you.

Adultism does not equal respect.
 
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8744

I love volunteer work and community service, and would be involved with both even if it didn't help me get into med school. I've been doing community service since I was a kid. It's something that I'm very passionate about. When I first got on here and saw people talking about only doing community service/volunteer work because they had to to get into med school, it really surprised me. I guess it still kind of surprises me that community service and social justice mean so little to some people. I don't have anything against those people, it just surprises me. As far as research goes, I assist researchers in my job, but I don't actually do research. I enjoy my job though.

**** community service and social justice. Community service in particular. My job is almost entirely community service. It's over-rated. What most people need is a little "self-service" meaning they need to start taking better care of themselves and not expecting "The Man" to provide them with everything from disability (the Holy Grail of the indigent) to a sammich' and juice.

Social Justice, for it's part, is another one of those nebulous phrases that makes me reach for my revolver. If it means arresting and punishing criminals I'm all for it. I think you mean it in the slobbering, bleeding heart, "My Son is a good boy even if he shot his girlfriend in the kootchie 'cause the bitch was playing him" sense.
 
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Social justice means equal rights, opportunities, protections, and obligations for all.... and you are kidding yourself if you think we live in a society where that exists.

How about the obligation to take care of your own kids? The obligation to take a bath and wipe your ass at least once a week before presenting for back pain? How about the obligation to work? Or to be honest and not lie about what happened to your last prescription of Percocet?

Or hey, here's an idea, how about the obligation not to get drunk and cracked out and try to punch the nurses or bite the techs?

Like most bleeding hearts, you're long on rights but short on obligations.
 
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- Gay rights. Couples do not have certain rights such as the ability to visit their partner in a health-care facility, give informed consent for treatment, make funeral arrangements, etc, just because they are not heterosexual.


This is absurd. In a married couple, the spouse is considered, by tradition, law, and custom to speak for the other and needs no formal legal document stipulating this. If a gay couple, on the other hand, who cannot be married (because gay marriage is, among other things, silly to the point of being oxymoronic) are really concerned about this, they can execute a simple legal document designating their partner as their medical decision maker. I see this all the time and nobody has any problem with it. You don't even need a lawyer. Just a signature and a witness. Hell, the hospital can provide you with these forms.

And if you really trust your partner, give him a Full Power of Attorney.

As for not being allowed to visit their partner, what are you smoking? Any friend may visit any other friend in the hospital at will. It's up to the patient.
 

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If it means arresting and punishing criminals I'm all for it. I think you mean it in the slobbering, bleeding heart, "My Son is a good boy even if he shot his girlfriend in the kootchie 'cause the bitch was playing him" sense.

:laugh: Actually it means neither.

Where did you get the idea that I don't believe that people should have equal obligations? Apparently I do agree that people should have equal obligations or I would not have included that when I was explaining social justice. That was me you quoted :rolleyes:

Actually non family members do not have visitation rights (here in WA state and in many other states) in situations such as when they are taken to the emergency room, are in intensive care, etc. It is not a matter of being able to get a power of attorney, or signing a form, or whatever. Let me define social justice for you again... Social justice means equal rights, opportunities, protections, and obligations for all. It doesn't matter whether or not you (by that I mean anyone/everyone) agree with gay rights or whatever, social justice is equality for all... not just the ones that are selected as being deserving.
 
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