Recent Dental Grads and Associate Dentists DEMAND higher salaries!!!

[drworldsmile]

When I graduated dental school in 1998 the going rate was $500 a day and 35% of production. If simply adjusted for inflation the base rate in 2014 should be $724.83!

Owner dentists and corporations now are offering $400-$500 a day and as low as 22% of collections. The reason they get away with it is there is no communication between individual dentists trying to get a job. Practice owners and corporations are not your friends, they tell you they are going to give you experience but the fact of the matter is they are just using you and making you think you are not worth more.

You come out of school burdened with debt these owner dentists and never had to dream of. Inflation has gone up 45% since 1998. We have to start a new way of thinking and that is to believe in yourselves and DEMAND a minimum of $725 per day and 35% of production. That is not unreasonable considering your education. Consider the average salary for a hygienist is $45 per hour. YOU ARE WORTH MORE THAN A HYGIENIST.

Spread the word, go to other dental student forums. Do Not Take NO For An Answer. Dental practices ARE profitable and they are simply being greedy.

Say it with me 725 or 35%!!!! 725 or 35%!!! 725 or 35%

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[Shunwei]

Ohhhhhhkkkkaaaayyyyy.......

 

[cherrytoblossom]

hey
Is just getting 35 % good enough? Most dental practices dont offer a daily rate but just 35 % collecion
thanks

 

[Ferneezy]

Too much small thinking going on here.

I'm calling my dental school and demanding a salary for the privilege of having me as their student for the next four years.










Will report back with results

 

[drworldsmile]

hey
Is just getting 35 % good enough? Most dental practices dont offer a daily rate but just 35 % collecion
thanks

Depends on where you are, 35% is reasonable.

 

[Shunwei]

Depends on where you are, 35% is reasonable.

You will be hard pressed to find 35% in most places. In metro areas most offers will be 25%. Not saying that is the right kind of offer but to counter with a 35% won't get you far and you have no control over the market conditions.

 

[sacapuntas]

You will be hard pressed to find 35% in most places. In metro areas most offers will be 25%. Not saying that is the right kind of offer but to counter with a 35% won't get you far and you have no control over the market conditions.

What metro areas are you referring to? I am assuming you mean 25% of production; what is a normal offer for % of collection? Would it depend entirely on their rate of collection and is that rate predictable for most offices?

 

[Shunwei]

What metro areas are you referring to? I am assuming you mean 25% of production; what is a normal offer for % of collection? Would it depend entirely on their rate of collection and is that rate predictable for most offices?

What I am saying is that for most metro areas the actual offers will be in the majority on collections and some will be in productions. Collection offers will most likely be in the range of 25-30% and production offers from 25-28%. If you really do what the OP suggests I think you will be laughed out of the room. 35% production is hell of a lot and any associate especially new grads will be hard pressed to get even close to that unless there are extenuating circumstances. I would even be surprised in metro areas for offers of 30% production. With collections (and I wrote about this earlier from my personal experiences), you have to deduct about 1-2% from it to arrive at the real value. Even though most offices claim around 98-99% collection rate, I personally think it is exaggerated. Many offices collect less especially if they offer payment plans to patients.

And to be fair, 35% to the owner is too much. Assuming a very well run office where the overhead is 55%, that means that the profit is only 45% and for an associate to get 35% production means that the owner gets like 9% (assuming the usual 1% attrition rate which is stellar already). So for only 9% the owner has to deal with office liability, staff issues, administrative and business side of things, and all that stuff? No way I'd do that as an employer.

In the future, when I get my own associates (I hope soon, as I am aggressively growing the practice), I would offer my associates 28% production. It is a good offer because it is an offer based on production (no need for the associate to worry about collections), and it should be competitive with any neighboring offices. With time I might raise that a bit, but under no circumstances would I exceed 30%.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I'm pretty sure the "demand" part of "supply and demand" doesn't mean you get to choose your own pay rate.

 

[Silent Cool]

What I am saying is that for most metro areas the actual offers will be in the majority on collections and some will be in productions. Collection offers will most likely be in the range of 25-30% and production offers from 25-28%. If you really do what the OP suggests I think you will be laughed out of the room. 35% production is hell of a lot and any associate especially new grads will be hard pressed to get even close to that unless there are extenuating circumstances. I would even be surprised in metro areas for offers of 30% production. With collections (and I wrote about this earlier from my personal experiences), you have to deduct about 1-2% from it to arrive at the real value. Even though most offices claim around 98-99% collection rate, I personally think it is exaggerated. Many offices collect less especially if they offer payment plans to patients.

And to be fair, 35% to the owner is too much. Assuming a very well run office where the overhead is 55%, that means that the profit is only 45% and for an associate to get 35% production means that the owner gets like 9% (assuming the usual 1% attrition rate which is stellar already). So for only 9% the owner has to deal with office liability, staff issues, administrative and business side of things, and all that stuff? No way I'd do that as an employer.

In the future, when I get my own associates (I hope soon, as I am aggressively growing the practice), I would offer my associates 28% production. It is a good offer because it is an offer based on production (no need for the associate to worry about collections), and it should be competitive with any neighboring offices. With time I might raise that a bit, but under no circumstances would I exceed 30%.

This.

 

[sacapuntas]

And to be fair, 35% to the owner is too much. Assuming a very well run office where the overhead is 55%, that means that the profit is only 45% and for an associate to get 35% production means that the owner gets like 9% (assuming the usual 1% attrition rate which is stellar already). So for only 9% the owner has to deal with office liability, staff issues, administrative and business side of things, and all that stuff? No way I'd do that as an employer.

Thank you for the reply and insight!

I am trying to wrap my head around the 9% you are stating and I don't understand it...I am going to wing the math using huge simplifications. I understood that your fixed expenses will remain the same, so your overhead is going to be helped when calculating with multiple doctors.

For example, let's say your current overhead is 55% and your gross production is 40,000 in a month making your expenses 22,000. You have the following fixed expenses: Rent is 3,000, loan practice repayment is 4,000, 1,500 is equipment payments, 500 is utilities, 5,000 for staff and 500 for marketing. That is 14,500 in fixed expenses. Your lab bill, supplies, CE etc makes up the other 7,500 for an overhead of 55%. Your current net income is 18,000 / month (45% of 40,000).

You add an associate and your gross production increases 50% to 60,000 a month meaning associate is producing 20,000.

Your fixed expenses remain 14,500 and your variable expenses increase 50% to 11,250. Your expenses are now 25,750 and your collections are 60,000. Your associate gets paid 35% on his collections (7,000) so your total expenses are 32750 making your new overhead 54.5% and your new net income is 27,300 / month.

The owner increases his net income 9,300/month. I don't see this as being a bad deal and it's not 9% of associate's collections, it's more like 46.5% (9,300/20,000).

Am I grossly misunderstanding the process (more than likely ) ?

 

[Shunwei]

Thank you for the reply and insight!

I am trying to wrap my head around the 9% you are stating and I don't understand it...I am going to wing the math using huge simplifications. I understood that your fixed expenses will remain the same, so your overhead is going to be helped when calculating with multiple doctors.

For example, let's say your current overhead is 55% and your gross production is 40,000 in a month making your expenses 22,000. You have the following fixed expenses: Rent is 3,000, loan practice repayment is 4,000, 1,500 is equipment payments, 500 is utilities, 5,000 for staff and 500 for marketing. That is 14,500 in fixed expenses. Your lab bill, supplies, CE etc makes up the other 7,500 for an overhead of 55%. Your current net income is 18,000 / month (45% of 40,000).

You add an associate and your gross production increases 50% to 60,000 a month meaning associate is producing 20,000.

Your fixed expenses remain 14,500 and your variable expenses increase 50% to 11,250. Your expenses are now 25,750 and your collections are 60,000. Your associate gets paid 35% on his collections (7,000) so your total expenses are 32750 making your new overhead 54.5% and your new net income is 27,300 / month.

The owner increases his net income 9,300/month. I don't see this as being a bad deal and it's not 9% of collections associate's collections, its more like 46.5% (9,300/20,000).

Am I grossly misunderstanding the process (more than likely ) ?

My model is based on if I were to get out of clinical dentistry and the associate take my place. In that case I would not contribute to the office and I am assuming that the associate does the same as I do.

In your model, things become much more complicated. Your fixed expenses are not necessarily going to stay fixed because you might need to expand your office space (meaning more lease), hire more staff, and plumb more chairs. Your variable expenses may also vary drastically depending on what materials your associate uses, etc. Most importantly, if your associate is slow or an extremely conservative diagnoser, that's also another problem. So there are too many factors to make any firm conclusions in your scenario. In the best case you might make more than 9%, but you may also make less if the associate sucks or requires more costs than he's worth.

 

[sacapuntas]

My model is based on if I were to get out of clinical dentistry and the associate take my place. In that case I would not contribute to the office and I am assuming that the associate does the same as I do.

In your model, things become much more complicated. Your fixed expenses are not necessarily going to stay fixed because you might need to expand your office space (meaning more lease), hire more staff, and plumb more chairs. Your variable expenses may also vary drastically depending on what materials your associate uses, etc. Most importantly, if your associate is slow or an extremely conservative diagnoser, that's also another problem. So there are too many factors to make any firm conclusions in your scenario.

Gotcha, I missed that part. Yeah, what I shared was clearly a simplification, I was trying to understand how you got to your number...that is all.

 

[longhornpride]

I was offered as low as 17% at one place. 30-35% production/collection seems to be market value for a dentist with 3-5 years of experience. Fresh grads for the most part are looking at 25% production.

 

[Destiny11]

My school taught us that 33% collections is average and reasonable.

 

[AU07DMD]

22% of collections and anything less than 28% of production is highway robbery. No way anyone should accept that as a full time job. Maybe as a 1 to 2 day per week job while they are working elsewhere for more or starting their own practice elsewhere (outside of the no compete radius, of course). If that is all your area is offering, I suggest you find a new area.

 

[Silent Cool]

You will be hard pressed to find 35% in most places. In metro areas most offers will be 25%. Not saying that is the right kind of offer but to counter with a 35% won't get you far and you have no control over the market conditions.

Shunwei, do these offers typially include any benefits? Health care, retirement, malpractice, disability, etc..?

thanx

 

[longhornpride]

22% of collections and anything less than 28% of production is highway robbery. No way anyone should accept that as a full time job. Maybe as a 1 to 2 day per week job while they are working elsewhere for more or starting their own practice elsewhere (outside of the no compete radius, of course). If that is all your area is offering, I suggest you find a new area.

I think this isn't solid advice. I turned down 40% collections at one office and 30% production at another office for a job that pays me 25% production. It's because I would see maybe 5-8 patients a day at those offices and I'm seeing 20+ patients at this current office. 25% of 100k production is better than 35% of 50k production. There are a lot of factors that one needs to look at besides the percentage numbers.

 

[Bereno]

I think this isn't solid advice. I turned down 40% collections at one office and 30% production at another office for a job that pays me 25% production. It's because I would see maybe 5-8 patients a day at those offices and I'm seeing 20+ patients at this current office. 25% of 100k production is better than 35% of 50k production. There are a lot of factors that one needs to look at besides the percentage numbers.

You beat me to it. A lot of people use the percentages as an approximation of pay, when they are not looking at the potential change in production/collections. All said and done, who cares what the percentage is if you are able to make good money and not be burnt out at the end of the day. Granted, a super low percentage will likely not work, and a super high percentage is just too rare...

 

[AU07DMD]

I think this isn't solid advice. I turned down 40% collections at one office and 30% production at another office for a job that pays me 25% production. It's because I would see maybe 5-8 patients a day at those offices and I'm seeing 20+ patients at this current office. 25% of 100k production is better than 35% of 50k production. There are a lot of factors that one needs to look at besides the percentage numbers.

Thanks for pointing this out. My assumption is that the job offers were all based off seeing a relatively equal # of patients which made the math much easier.

I just think it is difficult to work fast enough while still providing quality care and at the end of the day make enough money to support yourself and pay student loans at 22% collections. Unless your practice has really high fees and a lot of cash pts, which isn't the case more than likely.

 

[Mrsbear1]

When I graduated dental school in 1998 the going rate was $500 a day and 35% of production. If simply adjusted for inflation the base rate in 2014 should be $724.83!

Owner dentists and corporations now are offering $400-$500 a day and as low as 22% of collections. The reason they get away with it is there is no communication between individual dentists trying to get a job. Practice owners and corporations are not your friends, they tell you they are going to give you experience but the fact of the matter is they are just using you and making you think you are not worth more.

You come out of school burdened with debt these owner dentists and never had to dream of. Inflation has gone up 45% since 1998. We have to start a new way of thinking and that is to believe in yourselves and DEMAND a minimum of $725 per day and 35% of production. That is not unreasonable considering your education. Consider the average salary for a hygienist is $45 per hour. YOU ARE WORTH MORE THAN A HYGIENIST.

Spread the word, go to other dental student forums. Do Not Take NO For An Answer. Dental practices ARE profitable and they are simply being greedy.

Say it with me 725 or 35%!!!! 725 or 35%!!! 725 or 35%

Are you saying $725 and 35% or $725 or 35%