Recent Salary Contracts

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How easy is it to become an O7?

:laugh:
0-7= Rear Admiral (lower half)..:eek:....Not very realistic ....As a DPM, I'd say almost improbable........A DPM has NEVER made it to 0-7....Usually rear admirals are selected by a special committee composed of other senior officers, etc.....As a MSC officer & DPM, it would be VERY difficult to secure a recommendation from a 0-7 & above in order to be considered...Then, once u get that, it takes the SENATE to actually vote on you & u gotta get a majority vote...Then......say u get that, it goes to the president, & based on ur record, he could select you...MD's/DO's can become a Surgeon General (Vice-Admiral=0-9)

BUT......even if u do make it to EVEN 0-6 (Captain/Colonel)---as a DPM is VERY, VERY rare.....You'd be @ retirement age by the time u get to 0-6 (VERY COMPETITIVE) that you wouldn't be a good candidate....U'd have to be $hit-hot, world-renown, SUPER fit-reps, etc......You also gotta remember, that there are VERY few DPM's in the military....I believe less than 30 in the Navy :mad:

Even attaining 0-5 is an AMAZING feat for a DPM, but an 0-6 is REALLY outta the question, & 0-7 is nearly impossible (highly improbable)...(say goodbye to patient care, HELLO Admin !!!)----would u really wanna give that up??......Most DPM's would rather get out, OR retire @ 0-4....(like I plan to).....BUT----History is constantly changing (B. Obama) , so who know's---perhaps you'll be the 1st 0-7 DPM!!! :xf:

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Again, advancement for podiatry in the Navy is difficult. There are currently 14 active duty podiatrists and we are a part of the medical service corps which include hospital admin (so pods are out numbered). Not to mention there are formulas for rank advancement. There may be 30 slots for pods but they are not all filled yet.
 
I joined a busy group practice in a decent sized Midwestern town. I took a straight percentage (a bit risky), but after 9 months I am clearing $15K per month with that number likely increasing by then end of my first year in private practice. I also get medical/dental/malpractice/401K/professional dues among other things.

There are plenty of good jobs out there. Just keep your eyes open.
 
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I joined a busy group practice in a decent sized Midwestern town. I took a straight percentage (a bit risky), but after 9 months I am clearing $15K per month with that number likely increasing by then end of my first year in private practice. I also get medical/dental/malpractice/401K/professional dues among other things.

There are plenty of good jobs out there. Just keep your eyes open.

might i ask where you went to school, residency, and what you did to get a job like that?
 
I joined a busy group practice in a decent sized Midwestern town. I took a straight percentage (a bit risky), but after 9 months I am clearing $15K per month with that number likely increasing by then end of my first year in private practice. I also get medical/dental/malpractice/401K/professional dues among other things.

There are plenty of good jobs out there. Just keep your eyes open.

so 150k+ salary so far and this can fluctuate based on business?
 
15000*12 months in a year=180,000 and plus she/he said they also get 401k, malpractice, dental,health,professional dues....thats gotta be over 200K a year is this after or before tax? And are the benefits included into the 15 grand a month you are referring to?
 
Once AGAIN, please understand that there are exceptions to every rule. I can assure you that the average DPM does not earn in the $180-200,000 mark the first year out of residency, PLUS benefits and 401K, etc.

This particular doctor also practices in NYC, with one of the highest costs of living in the U.S.

As I've stated before, I'm in a very large group practice, one of the largest in the East, if not the entire country. And I know what it costs to have to pay a new doc that kind of money.

Additionally, there are different practices with different "ethical" issues and different "ethical" practices. Some practices are very "aggressive" and walk that very thin line when it comes to billing practices and don't always do what's best for the patient, but do what's best for the practice's wallet.

I'm not saying that's the case with this particular doctor, but before anyone is impressed with ANY practice, you must know the entire story. It's extremely easy to make money in practice by billing aggressively and performing procedures that don't necessarily need to be performed, taking x-rays that don't need to be taken, making orthoses that don't need to be made, etc., etc.

That's exactly why we don't pay our associates by "incentive". We've found that causes them to start "looking" for surgeries, orthoses, etc., and causes unnecessary procedures to be performed, and that's NOT what our practice is about. When we see one of our new doctors working hard, seeing more patients, putting in more hours, etc., we AUTOMATICALLY increase the size of his/her check. No associate has ever asked for a raise but has always been surprised when the check in the envelope was unexpectedly larger.

That's the formula that's worked for us, and it's prevented unnecessary procedures and over-utilization while maintaining a great work ethic and loyalty.

So please don't be over-impressed when one or two doctors come on here spewing high salary contracts unless you know the ENTIRE story. As I've said in the past, worry about providing quality care to your patients and you WILL make a good living. Don't be obsessed with your starting salary, it will all work out if you are ethical and provide quality care.
 
Pre-pods (those who have only done college), I would hesitate to ask people specifics of how much they make on SDN and expect a response. I had a professional job for a few years (high end sales). I would rather tell you what turns my wife on than tell you specifics of how much I made and what benefits were. It is just the way the world works. It is why you may be brushing your teeth at home with a gold plated toothbrush, but you drive a 3 year old domestic mid size sedan to the office. A certain sense of mystery is always a good thing to have. Girls, don't tell him on the first date you have daddy issues.
 
I joined a busy group practice in a decent sized Midwestern town. I took a straight percentage (a bit risky), but after 9 months I am clearing $15K per month with that number likely increasing by then end of my first year in private practice. I also get medical/dental/malpractice/401K/professional dues among other things.

There are plenty of good jobs out there. Just keep your eyes open.

That's excellent compensation for first year out. It's a far cry from back-in-the-day when new Associates got shafted for $60K/yr. straight salary and were treated like trainees. Will you be looking to buy-in soon?
 
Once AGAIN, please understand that there are exceptions to every rule. I can assure you that the average DPM does not earn in the $180-200,000 mark the first year out of residency, PLUS benefits and 401K, etc.

This particular doctor also practices in NYC, with one of the highest costs of living in the U.S.

As I've stated before, I'm in a very large group practice, one of the largest in the East, if not the entire country. And I know what it costs to have to pay a new doc that kind of money.

Additionally, there are different practices with different "ethical" issues and different "ethical" practices. Some practices are very "aggressive" and walk that very thin line when it comes to billing practices and don't always do what's best for the patient, but do what's best for the practice's wallet.

I'm not saying that's the case with this particular doctor, but before anyone is impressed with ANY practice, you must know the entire story. It's extremely easy to make money in practice by billing aggressively and performing procedures that don't necessarily need to be performed, taking x-rays that don't need to be taken, making orthoses that don't need to be made, etc., etc.

That's exactly why we don't pay our associates by "incentive". We've found that causes them to start "looking" for surgeries, orthoses, etc., and causes unnecessary procedures to be performed, and that's NOT what our practice is about. When we see one of our new doctors working hard, seeing more patients, putting in more hours, etc., we AUTOMATICALLY increase the size of his/her check. No associate has ever asked for a raise but has always been surprised when the check in the envelope was unexpectedly larger.

That's the formula that's worked for us, and it's prevented unnecessary procedures and over-utilization while maintaining a great work ethic and loyalty.

So please don't be over-impressed when one or two doctors come on here spewing high salary contracts unless you know the ENTIRE story. As I've said in the past, worry about providing quality care to your patients and you WILL make a good living. Don't be obsessed with your starting salary, it will all work out if you are ethical and provide quality care.

Are you referring to PlainsPod? He or she said that he or she practices in a midwestern town, not NYC, so were you thinking of someone else?
 
I think there is no reason that with the training pods receive for them to not start out with at least 150 GROSS but i mean thats start salary so after taxes its not a lot.
 
NatCh,

You are correct and that was my error, which makes the first year's earnings even GREATER considering it's in the Midwest!

ThetaChiNAU1856,

I'm afraid that it seems that you often miss the point and may be a little unrealistic and/or disappointed when you finish your training. There's a HUGE difference between what you may "think" you/we are worth and what the market will offer. As I've stated over and over and over again, for every story you hear about a graduating resident earning the big bucks, I can ASSURE you there are many making significantly less money....to START.

Yeah, yeah I know the story. That's absurd, that's ridiculous, that's insulting after all that training, yada, yada, yada. But after 23 years in the business, I know the facts. Been there, done that.

And as I've also stated before over and over again, you must see the BIG picture and look long term, not short term. Although you may not make the big bucks on day one, if you provide quality care and PROVE yourself, you can and will make a good living in a few short years and you will catch up and possibly surpass the guys that started with high salaries.

Our first year new hires are paid fairly, but not the highest in the country. They work hard and we monitor them closely to make sure that they provide quality care and ethical care and NEVER cross the line of performing unnecessary procedures, etc.

But within 3-5 years, our associates are probably being paid in the top 5-10% compared to their peers, because they had patience and earned their keep.

However, your expectations truly concern me when you make comments that $150,000 really isn't a lot of money to gross, when you consider the amount brought home after taxes.

I make an excellent living, and still consider anyone making $150,000 to be extremely respectable, especially in an economy when people would love to have a job or make a third of that amount.

But right now why don't you simply worry about getting into/through podiatry school, THEN obtaining a quality residency program, THEN completing that program, THEN obtaining a job, prior to worrying about your income.

Isn't that concern just a "little" pre-mature?
 
NatCh,

You are correct and that was my error, which makes the first year's earnings even GREATER considering it's in the Midwest!

ThetaChiNAU1856,

I'm afraid that it seems that you often miss the point and may be a little unrealistic and/or disappointed when you finish your training. There's a HUGE difference between what you may "think" you/we are worth and what the market will offer. As I've stated over and over and over again, for every story you hear about a graduating resident earning the big bucks, I can ASSURE you there are many making significantly less money....to START.

Yeah, yeah I know the story. That's absurd, that's ridiculous, that's insulting after all that training, yada, yada, yada. But after 23 years in the business, I know the facts. Been there, done that.

And as I've also stated before over and over again, you must see the BIG picture and look long term, not short term. Although you may not make the big bucks on day one, if you provide quality care and PROVE yourself, you can and will make a good living in a few short years and you will catch up and possibly surpass the guys that started with high salaries.

Our first year new hires are paid fairly, but not the highest in the country. They work hard and we monitor them closely to make sure that they provide quality care and ethical care and NEVER cross the line of performing unnecessary procedures, etc.

But within 3-5 years, our associates are probably being paid in the top 5-10% compared to their peers, because they had patience and earned their keep.

However, your expectations truly concern me when you make comments that $150,000 really isn't a lot of money to gross, when you consider the amount brought home after taxes.

I make an excellent living, and still consider anyone making $150,000 to be extremely respectable, especially in an economy when people would love to have a job or make a third of that amount.

But right now why don't you simply worry about getting into/through podiatry school, THEN obtaining a quality residency program, THEN completing that program, THEN obtaining a job, prior to worrying about your income.

Isn't that concern just a "little" pre-mature?


well maybe, but sheesh could have forgone the lecture dad JUST KIDDING haha well I don't know what do you consider top 5-10% to be? I have a friend I regularly message on facebook that has been in practice in NY for like 9 years and has ben NETTING after benefits, a handsome 214000 a year. So I mean is that top or does it go higher? just wondering and dont think im just in it for the money-with all due respect nobody really knows anyone on here so theres no need to speculate and be judgemental based upon 1 question. :)

And I realize I need to "worry" about getting through school and all that yada yada yada *giggle* but there is NO harm in thinking about every possible aspect of my future. Would you say thinking about every aspect of my future is silly? I don't think so, I just like to plan ahead and get a BALLPARK idea of what to expect 1 year out, 5 years down, 10 and 20 years down the road.

I do appreciate your response, however :)
 
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You do have to understand that this speculative information is also for individuals who entered the work force in the year 2008 (or a few years prior). I'd imagine that not only salary but scope, privileges, etc will change by the time you and I are out. Since you stand to graduate in 2013 and I'm sure you would opt for a 3 year surgical program...we're talking 2016 before you are ready to sign a contract of any sorts.

You also have to consider all of the ground-breaking work guys like krabmas, jonwill, footdoc, feli, and the like are going to be doing for our profession in the next few year (is there something on my nose?) which will hopefully increase the salaries, scopes, and priviliges discussed in this thread.

My advice is to drop it...not because it is not a valid inquiry, rather it is most likely irrelevant to the market you'll be entering into in 7 years.
 
dtrack22 is correct. Although you certainly should be concerned whether or not you can eventually earn a decent living at your chosen trade, worrying about something at least 7 or more years down the road is something that really doesn't have a lot of relevance to today's environment.

With all due respect to krabmas, jonwill, footdoc, feli, I'm not sure that they are performing "ground breaking" work. Our profession has slowly and constantly evolved over the years since I graduated. As I've stated, when I graduated, only 47% of my class obtained residency training, and although I received a program, many of the top students in my class never had that opportunity.

Today, almost all graduates receive training and most receive 36 month training and as you know that will soon be mandatory. That has taken a long time and I'm hoping that with the economy and recent closing of many smaller hospitals with residency programs, and new pod schools opening, there will be an adequate number or programs for ALL graduates.

I sincerely hope that the guys you mentioned DO have ground breaking careers and move our profession forward. Guys like David Armstrong have put our profession on the map. Younger docs like Lee Rogers who is a "regular" on this site also appears to be on track to be a shaker and mover and our profession needs more of these guys.

So although I DO appear to lecture, I've been a residency director and have trained a lot of residents, students/externs as well as associates. And I've been politically involved in our profession as well as an ABPS examiner. Therefore, I'm well aware of what's going on and I do have my finger on the pulse of our profession and I'm in tune with what students and residents think and "expect".

So sometimes I have to be the voice of reality even when it seems like I'm lecturing or being "dad".

Once again, dtrack22's advice was spot on......chill out and move on to another subject.
 
PADPM-

One of the great things about SDN has been that slowly but surely we are getting more and more experienced and practicing podiatrists posting on here. It is great to hear from current residents and Pods that are in the thick of it now.

I have to say though, I do find it odd that you do not share more about yourself on here like Natch, DPMgrad, Rogers, and some of the current residents. It would be easier to put some of your thoughts in perspective if we had an idea of who you are instead of having to hear about "your practice being the largest on the East Coast, etc. etc." or how you have been a residency director in the past, etc. etc. Enlighten us please to more about you because for most of us on here will probably continue to have the mindset about you that you have about people sharing their salary..until you see it for yourself, take it with a grain of salt because anyone can and will say anything behind the cloak of the internet...
 
I think PADPM posted before that he wants to remain anonymous. Regardless, he can whatever he thinks is best and most of us appreciate his presence.
 
I changed positions and joined a large ortho/multidiscipline group and my compensation/type of practice in the past with a podiatry practice doesn't even compare to that of this new group. The way I practice now is different (better) and the pay/benefits/opprtunities/support is worlds better. I don't think a podiatry practice can provide the support nor the compensation that an ortho or multidiscipline group can.
 
BuckeyeDoctor,

I'm one doctor in a large group, and as a result of that fact, I remain anonymous since not all of my partners/associates are on board with the idea that I discuss certain topics "openly" by revealing my identity. If I was in private solo practice that would be a completely different story. But I represent just one voice in a large practice, therefore must remain "anonymous".

If that offends you.....so be it. If you don't believe my credentials or past experience, then simply ignore my posts. I have better things to do with my time than attempt to impress people with false claims. I can assure you that I've actually been pretty modest in my posts, but I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. So take what you want from my posts, or simply ignore them if you believe I'm blowing smoke.

Prespy,

I would agree 100% with your assessment and experience. The bottom line is that I don't know of many DPM groups that can compete with orthopedic groups. The average orthopedic group can simply out-earn most DPM groups due to volume and procedures. That's why the minimal starting salary for most orthopods is at LEAST $250-300,000.

The residents I've trained that have obtained positions with orthopedic groups have almost all received significantly higher salary contracts than those working for DPM's, and they also have better hours and contracts that seem more "user friendly". I guess that even if they pay a DPM very well, they're still getting off a lot cheaper than hiring a foot and ankle orthopedist for at least $250-300,000. At those fees, a starting DPM at $150,000 is a bargain.
 
I changed positions and joined a large ortho/multidiscipline group and my compensation/type of practice in the past with a podiatry practice doesn't even compare to that of this new group. The way I practice now is different (better) and the pay/benefits/opprtunities/support is worlds better. I don't think a podiatry practice can provide the support nor the compensation that an ortho or multidiscipline group can.

I think of one big differences between multispecialty groups and orthopedic groups versus podiatry groups is that the multispecialty and orthopedic groups are used to taking a bigger financial risk on the new employee for the first couple of years. That is to say that these groups understand that during the first year or two the new employee may not generate enough revenue to even cover the expense of his or her compensation package, but they consider it an investment in which the new Dr. will hopefully stick around long enough to return the investment. In order to protect their investment they use methods such as covenants not to compete or penalties for leaving the group if that doctor wishes to remain practicing within a certain radius. If they were not to offer big enough compensation packages, then they would not be able to attract new employees. With big multispecialty and orthopedic groups the Partners typically generate enough gross revenue that they can absorb the cost of a new employee more easily than the typical podiatry Partner.

In contrast, podiatry groups at least in the past have been less likely to offer a compensation package equivalent to the M.D. and D.O. groups. In other words the podiatry groups were less willing to take the financial risk on that first couple of years of work. They offered a smaller compensation package and were able to do so, perhaps partly because their gross revenue is less than at of a big multispecialty group, and also perhaps partly because Associates accepted the offers.

What is more significant than the compensation package in my opinion is the status given or respect shown to the new employee. I'm drawing from the experiences of my wife, who is a Partner in a big multispecialty group. All along the way during her career, from residency through partnership, she was treated as though the employer wanted her. It was such a pronounced difference from my experiences as a podiatrist. At residency and job interviews, the interviewing group would treat her as if they are trying to win her over from other groups. They were trying to show her why she should choose to work for them rather than for someone else. They were trying to woo her.

Even once she was employed physician, the Partners in her group treated her as an equal Physician colleague rather than as an employee. The fact that one physician is on the payroll and the other is a Partner rarely even comes up in their interaction. It exists more on paper than on an interpersonal level. And now that she is a partner, she has several employed physicians in her group but one would never know it unless one were to ask the Accounting department.

In contrast, my podiatry interviews were more like stress interviews, in which you have to prove yourself to the interviewer and convince them that they should take you. I recall talking to other students during the residency interview process who also reported much condescension and paternalism during their interview process.

For a while I was an Associate in a podiatry group, and as with a lot of Associateships it failed miserably (as with pretty much everyone I know who was an Associate). The partners always reminded me that I was "just an Associate" (actual words!) and they put a lot of pressure on how I was to practice on a day-to-day basis. They never let me forget that they were the ones paying me. I always had somebody looking over my shoulder. Eventually it ended with me telling one of the Partners, "you know, you're an ass!" That was pretty much the end of that!

Frankly I don't know why any new residency graduate would consider working for a podiatry group, given the profession's past history of low pay and paternalism. In the very least I would consider working for a multispecialty group, a hospital, or opening up your own practice. I definitely would not join a group where I had older podiatrists looking over my shoulder. Been there, done that...sucked the life out of me. I would take lower pay and independence over higher pay and working for The Man any day.
 
Well stated. In our group we attempt to not look over the shoulder of our new associates. We place them in one of our offices on his/her own, and let them "loose". We don't review the charts or check up on them.

We do look over the billings and procedures to check for correct billings and over-utilization, but we let them see and treat patients without our intervention. Each doctor rotates through different offices until he/she obtains a following and settles into the practice.

When we introduce a new associate to a patient, colleague, etc., we always introduce them as our new partner. No one outside our office knows which one of the doctors in our office is an associate, full partner, junior partner, shareholder, etc. The senior doctor/founder of the practice and newest associate all work the same number of hours per week. The only noticeable difference is that the senior members get more vacation time, and some drive some slightly nicer cars, though most drive modest cars to the office and leave the nicer cars at home.
 
Well stated. In our group we attempt to not look over the shoulder of our new associates. We place them in one of our offices on his/her own, and let them "loose". We don't review the charts or check up on them.

We do look over the billings and procedures to check for correct billings and over-utilization, but we let them see and treat patients without our intervention. Each doctor rotates through different offices until he/she obtains a following and settles into the practice.

When we introduce a new associate to a patient, colleague, etc., we always introduce them as our new partner. No one outside our office knows which one of the doctors in our office is an associate, full partner, junior partner, shareholder, etc. The senior doctor/founder of the practice and newest associate all work the same number of hours per week. The only noticeable difference is that the senior members get more vacation time, and some drive some slightly nicer cars, though most drive modest cars to the office and leave the nicer cars at home.

Doctor, although it may seem inappropriate but it will really help out alot if you answer .. just how nice are these cars?
 
good god lol. GymMan reincarnated.
 
Ok bro. no problem bro. good luck securing your ferrari to drive to the office bro. dtrack and i will be in next week for our tummy ache bro!

in all seriousness, this salary issue has been absolutely beaten to death during the last few months. the professionals in this thread/forum have laid down the ground rules to being successful multiple times. Some of the questions and concerns you guys come up with as pre-pods slay me. Chill out, know this is the profession youll ENJOY regardless of celebrity status income, and youll be win at life. If money and porsches are what get you up in the morning go to business school
 
its not about the money for me i already got it ... it was just a question that u had no business interfering this is a public forum if you don't like what i was asking leave it alone... n btw i drive a '07 750 something u wont be able to buy as a pod in ur case LMAO! go study ur gen anatomy bro...
 
It would be easier to put some of your thoughts in perspective if we had an idea of who you are instead of having to hear about "your practice being the largest on the East Coast, etc. etc." or how you have been a residency director in the past, etc. etc. Enlighten us please to more about you because for most of us on here will probably continue to have the mindset about you that you have about people sharing their salary..until you see it for yourself, take it with a grain of salt because anyone can and will say anything behind the cloak of the internet...
Dude. Seriously? Please do not include me in with this. If you can't learn a great deal from his posts without knowing his SSN and if he likes modern or contemporary home design...then.....
 
I think of one big differences between multispecialty groups and orthopedic groups versus podiatry groups is that the multispecialty and orthopedic groups are used to taking a bigger financial risk on the new employee for the first couple of years. That is to say that these groups understand that during the first year or two the new employee may not generate enough revenue to even cover the expense of his or her compensation package, but they consider it an investment in which the new Dr. will hopefully stick around long enough to return the investment. In order to protect their investment they use methods such as covenants not to compete or penalties for leaving the group if that doctor wishes to remain practicing within a certain radius. If they were not to offer big enough compensation packages, then they would not be able to attract new employees. With big multispecialty and orthopedic groups the Partners typically generate enough gross revenue that they can absorb the cost of a new employee more easily than the typical podiatry Partner.



In contrast, podiatry groups at least in the past have been less likely to offer a compensation package equivalent to the M.D. and D.O. groups. In other words the podiatry groups were less willing to take the financial risk on that first couple of years of work. They offered a smaller compensation package and were able to do so, perhaps partly because their gross revenue is less than at of a big multispecialty group, and also perhaps partly because Associates accepted the offers.

What is more significant than the compensation package in my opinion is the status given or respect shown to the new employee. I'm drawing from the experiences of my wife, who is a Partner in a big multispecialty group. All along the way during her career, from residency through partnership, she was treated as though the employer wanted her. It was such a pronounced difference from my experiences as a podiatrist. At residency and job interviews, the interviewing group would treat her as if they are trying to win her over from other groups. They were trying to show her why she should choose to work for them rather than for someone else. They were trying to woo her.

Even once she was employed physician, the Partners in her group treated her as an equal Physician colleague rather than as an employee. The fact that one physician is on the payroll and the other is a Partner rarely even comes up in their interaction. It exists more on paper than on an interpersonal level. And now that she is a partner, she has several employed physicians in her group but one would never know it unless one were to ask the Accounting department.

In contrast, my podiatry interviews were more like stress interviews, in which you have to prove yourself to the interviewer and convince them that they should take you. I recall talking to other students during the residency interview process who also reported much condescension and paternalism during their interview process.

For a while I was an Associate in a podiatry group, and as with a lot of Associateships it failed miserably (as with pretty much everyone I know who was an Associate). The partners always reminded me that I was "just an Associate" (actual words!) and they put a lot of pressure on how I was to practice on a day-to-day basis. They never let me forget that they were the ones paying me. I always had somebody looking over my shoulder. Eventually it ended with me telling one of the Partners, "you know, you're an ass!" That was pretty much the end of that!

Frankly I don't know why any new residency graduate would consider working for a podiatry group, given the profession's past history of low pay and paternalism. In the very least I would consider working for a multispecialty group, a hospital, or opening up your own practice. I definitely would not join a group where I had older podiatrists looking over my shoulder. Been there, done that...sucked the life out of me. I would take lower pay and independence over higher pay and working for The Man any day.

As a pre pod, i try to keep my thoughts confined to the pre pod forum, but i have heard this same story too many times for it to be a coincidence.
I have shadowed four podiatrists and all of them had something bad to say about Associateships (two actually picked up and left (one in the middle of the work day)).
 
godfather,

I actually did find your post inappropriate, and similar to another forum member, I also find your constant use of the term "bro" amazingly annoying.

By the way, one of my partners drove a Rolls until recently, but a few of us found it a little obnoxious, so he now drives a different European luxury sedan.

Now, since you're already so wealthy, why don't you worry about your grades and providing quality care to those in need?
 
godfather,

I actually did find your post inappropriate, and similar to another forum member, I also find your constant use of the term "bro" amazingly annoying.

By the way, one of my partners drove a Rolls until recently, but a few of us found it a little obnoxious, so he now drives a different European luxury sedan.

Now, since you're already so wealthy, why don't you worry about your grades and providing quality care to those in need?

Doctor,
I am sorry to annoy you, and I would like to thank you very much for responding back. A "Rolls" ... wow, very impressive but you are right that's a little pushing it lol ... And rest assured that i will do my best to perfect my grades, provide the best of care to my ability to patients, and try to advance this profound field in the process. Once again thank you for answering my question, your a fountian of contribution on this site thnx!
 
G0dFather said:
Doctor,
I am sorry to annoy you, and I would like to thank you very much for responding back. A "Rolls" ... wow, very impressive but you are right that's a little pushing it lol ... And rest assured that i will do my best to perfect my grades, provide the best of care to my ability to patients, and try to advance this profound field in the process. Once again thank you for answering my question, your a fountian of contribution on this site thnx!

Amazing how his tune changes when someone like PADPM is giving the response...you got him singing like a member of the Harlem Boys Choir :laugh:
 
As a pre pod, i try to keep my thoughts confined to the pre pod forum, but i have heard this same story too many times for it to be a coincidence.
I have shadowed four podiatrists and all of them had something bad to say about Associateships (two actually picked up and left (one in the middle of the work day)).

Unfortunately I don't know of one single person whose Associateship lasted. I heard that the actual number was something like around 50% fail, so maybe half of them end up good? Not sure on that. The problem is when we finish Residency we are poorly prepared to start a business, so you almost have to join an established practice. At least if you join a big multispecialty group or hospital, you will get treated with respect rather than as an underling. Not sure about what it would be like in an Ortho group, since some Orthos probably still look down on podiatry. Those jobs probably aren't all that abundant, so a lot of you will end up working for another podiatrist. All I'm saying is I wouldn't put down roots. Keep the engine running.
 
I would consider NatCH's comments pretty accurate, with about 50% of associates working out pretty well. However, I've also seen this as a two-way street and not always the fault of the employer, but often the fault of the employee/associate, and I will explain.

First, please remember that in many markets, it's extremely difficult for a new doctor to establish a practice. The cost of opening a new practice is ridiculously high, especially if you ALREADY have a high debt due to school loans.

If you rent a space, there's a good chance you will have to incur large costs for a "build out" to turn it into a DPM office, even if it was previously used for a doctor's office. You must purchase expensive equipment such as treatment chairs, x-ray equipment if you decide to take x-rays, a developer, computers, instruments, supplies, cast shoes, cast boots, a cast cutter, copier, fax machine, plus about a hundred other things it takes to run an office. Not to mention the cost of health insurance, disability insurance, employee salaries, workmen's comp insurance, office liability insurance, rent/mortgage on the office, utilities, hospital dues, APMA dues, ACFAS dues, ABPS dues, etc. BEFORE you even see your first patient!!!!

On the other hand, you can whine and complain of not being paid "enough" while working for a DPM group and not getting enough "respect", but having ZERO expenses and getting a guaranteed paycheck each and every week, while the OTHER doctor has the responsibility of filling your appointment book and paying all the expenses I've mentioned above.

Sometimes, it 'ain't so bad when you look at it from the employer's perspective!! If it snows for a week, and our associates see ZERO patients, they still collect a paycheck!

Now here comes the part where I've seen many associates ruin the relationship early on in their contracts. They agree to a set number, and then get "pissed off" when they begin to "count the other doctor's money".

I'll give you a perfect example;

Let's say a first year associate is making $78,000 his first year before any bonuses, etc. That means he's making $1,500 weekly or $300 a day. Then he has a few days when he makes orthoses for 2 patients a day a few days a week. So each week he's averaging 5 pairs of orthoses a week. And he's also doing about 3 pairs of diabetic shoes weekly and two surgeries weekly.

Now his wheels start turning and he thinks that the office is getting $450 or more for the orthoses x 5 a week, and is getting $300+ dollars per pair of shoes x 3 a week and is getting at least $900 per surgery x 2 per week. Therefore, despite ALL the other patients he's seeing a week, the office is grossing $4,950 on JUST those 10 patients, and all he is grossing is a stinking $1,500!!

So, now he is bitter and is "counting the other doctor's money". However, he is forgetting that the other doctor is paying his malpractice, hospital dues, rent, ABPS dues, ACFAS dues, APMA dues, DEA registration, state license fees, and all office over head and YES is making a profit.

The assoicate also forgets that he will be getting a bonus and will be working his way up the ladder in the practice and his salary will be increasing.

But instead of understanding, he starts to bitch to the office staff about how much Dr. Owner makes, and about how "cheap" Dr. Owner is, and how Dr. "Owner" takes a lot of vacations, and drives a REALLY nice car, and wears a REALLY nice Rolex and wears REALLY expensive suits, etc.,, etc.

But the young doctor forgets that the office staff has been working for Dr. Owner for a LONG time and has a loyalty to him, not the new associate. So, of course they tell Dr. Owner and now he's not happy. He doesn't want anyone in HIS office speaking poorly about him, especially to his own office staff.

So, now an unnecessary tension develops because Dr. Associate is bitter and jealous, and Dr.Owner has lost his trust in Dr. Associate.

So my point is that it's not always the partners/owners screwing the new associate. Many times the associate simply isn't willing to pay his/her dues and doesn't realize that most of the owners/partners worked hard to get where they are presently. The owners aren't trying to screw them, but just like a law firm, accounting firm, etc., you aren't made a partner on day one and it's something that comes with hard work and dedication, not with whining and jealously.

That's not to say that there aren't a-holes as owners/partners out there that treat associates like crap and chew them up and spit them out. There are bad apples in all professions, and I can not defend those pricks.
 
I would consider NatCH's comments pretty accurate, with about 50% of associates working out pretty well. However, I've also seen this as a two-way street and not always the fault of the employer, but often the fault of the employee/associate, and I will explain.

[snip]

That's not to say that there aren't a-holes as owners/partners out there that treat associates like crap and chew them up and spit them out. There are bad apples in all professions, and I can not defend those pricks.

The above is an excellent dissection of Old Doc/New Doc dynamics. Perhaps there's too much potential for disrespect on behalf of both sides for such relationships to work out consistently.

Now that I think of it, I have a friend who is a Hospitalist and she reports that there's a lot of discontent in her group. They get pushed around by their Management, who consists of folks who graduated from college with C averages because they were out partying while the pre-meds were in the library studying.

I wonder if it's possible to be an employed physician and completely happy with your work situation? It must be rare. Even Partners get irritated when their practice changes as a result of insurance policies, Medicare policies, government policies, etc.

I think that lack of control over one's destiny is a major cause of malcontent in our society. That must be why the idea of "being your own boss" has such mass appeal.

Edit: The husband of a friend just came to mind. He's been an Associate for about 8 years and likes the Partners in his group. He would like to buy-in but hasn't yet because he can't stomach the enormous buy-in price. I guess that brings up another issue: buy-in price. How do you calculate it? Best to inquire before you hire on. You probably won't get an exact number but you'll want to know if it's based only on accounts receivable, accounts receivable plus good will, or some other formula. If you have an attractive initial salary offer but the buy-in five years later is too onerous, you'll feel trapped. You will either have to pony up the $500,000 buy-in (or whatever it is) or pack your bags and start over elsewhere. There have been numerous threads on Podiatry Management newsletter asking about it without any consensus.

More edit: as long as I'm being a total poop, I'll add that even if you CAN become a Partner it doesn't necessarily mean your Partnership will last. You might discover that you have different ideas over the direction of the practice, or you might find you hate your Partner's guts on an interpersonal level. And you all thought things got easier after Residency!
 
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Actually, you may NEVER want to be a partner. There's a doctor in our group that according to "years in" and seniority is actually #5 on this list, but simply never wanted to buy-in as a partner.

Instead, he simply collects a rather handsome paycheck and has no worries or responsibilities that the partners share. He has to attend the office quarterly meetings but not the weekly partner meetings, did not have to invest big bucks and does not have any delegated duties that all partners have. He can invest his money as he would like, because non partners do not get any investment benefits, but it's worked well for him and he is VERY content.

Although all partners do very well financially, they are also on the hook for big bucks to pay the bills for over 25 offices and lots of employees. There's not a regular paycheck every week, though when the money rolls in, it rolls in big time.

So, the reality is that as in any corporation, there can be happy employees that aren't partners, and this holds true for medical practices. Our practice has several doctors that have been on board for over 10 years that have OPTED not to buy in, but instead receive a very nice check EVERY week with no strings attached.
 
Instead, he simply collects a rather handsome paycheck and has no worries or responsibilities that the partners share. He has to attend the office quarterly meetings but not the weekly partner meetings, did not have to invest big bucks and does not have any delegated duties that all partners have. He can invest his money as he would like, because non partners do not get any investment benefits, but it's worked well for him and he is VERY content.

I like that situation:p
 
I should also add that he's paid his dues to receive that handsome paycheck and has been part of the practice for quite a few years.

The downside (to some individuals) is that he has no voting rights regarding office policy, though at our quarterly meetings ALL our doctors, even our newest associates give their input and those recommendations/suggestions are taken very seriously and any negative feedback is never held against anyone. The purpose of the meetings is for a meeting of the minds to ultimately improve the practice and quality of care.
 
......."The problem is when we finish Residency we are poorly prepared to start a business..."

Drs. I also will chip in here at this moment as I typically don't post here. But my question is:

Would a DPM/MBA better prepare one to start his or her own practice?
 
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......."The problem is when we finish Residency we are poorly prepared to start a business..."

Drs. I also will chip in here at this moment as I typically don't post here. But my question is:

Would a DPM/MBA better prepare one to start his or her own practice?

I don't think an MBA trains a person to run a small business (someone with an MBA please correct me if I'm wrong). I think an MBA is more appropriate for "big picture" type business training. It never hurts to have extra degrees, but I wouldn't delay starting your practice in order to pursue an MBA. In the extra time it took to earn an MBA you could work for a podiatry practice and learn what you needed to learn.
 
I should also add that he's paid his dues to receive that handsome paycheck and has been part of the practice for quite a few years.

The downside (to some individuals) is that he has no voting rights regarding office policy, though at our quarterly meetings ALL our doctors, even our newest associates give their input and those recommendations/suggestions are taken very seriously and any negative feedback is never held against anyone. The purpose of the meetings is for a meeting of the minds to ultimately improve the practice and quality of care.

It sounds as if your group has good dynamics.
 
Thanks NatCH,

The practice really does have pretty good dynamics. The problem with any large group, is that you must avoid the problem of having "too many chiefs and not enough Indians" (I mean no disrespect to native Americans, it's simply an "old" saying).

So, although our group does have a few partners, the two "head" partners are the doctor that founded the practice and the doctor that came on board about 2 years later. Therefore, the remaining doctors in the practice have an unwritten rule that they are the two "chief" doctors, and we provide them with that respect. That has worked out well and the rest of us simply check our egos at the door.

Once again we introduce ALL doctors in the practice as our "partners", even if it's the doctor's first day on the job. No doctor in our practice is ever introduced as our new associate.

By allowing our "original" two docs the "chief" role, it keeps a great grounding force in the practice and no one really EVER pulls rank on anyone in the practice. It's worked great for many years and I hope that it continues this way.

I think that's why most of us drive pretty modest cars/SUV's to the office, and leave the nicer stuff at home. It creates more parity with the newer docs AND the office staff.

Once again, my ego is checked at the door. My office staff at all our offices calls me by my first name, not by "Dr".
 
From the May 1, 2009 issue of Podiatry Management News:

Query: Hiring an Associate
We are considering bringing an associate into our practice. Can anyone offer any advice on how to determine a fair and reasonable starting salary? Any other tips and advice would be appreciated.

Lani Smith, Roseburg, OR

Response: How much you start paying an associate is generally detemined by a varierty of factors, including the education and experience level of the associate as well as the cost of living in your area. A PMS-36 graduate should command a higher starting salary than a PMS-24. Experience also counts, so factor in how many years than individual may have been in practice. The key is to predict how much revenue this individual should add to your gross. Note that according to the latest Podiatry Management survey, the average employed DPM was paid $99,121. Salaries ranged from $10,000 (likely part-time) to $200,000. An additional way to incentivize is to pay a base salary, plus a bonus based on productivity.

Barry Block, DPM, JD, Forest Hills, NY
 
NatCH,

You beat me to it!! I was just about to post the same thing. Despite all the contracts that people are signing, the average employed DPM is making $99 grand, and that includes new hires and guys/gals working for a few years.

Therefore, it's consistent with my past comments that not all new grads are going to sign contracts in the mid 100's. I believe a lot of these young guys are in for a rude awakening. They WILL make a good living, but maybe not as quickly as they think or want.
 
NatCH,

You beat me to it!! I was just about to post the same thing. Despite all the contracts that people are signing, the average employed DPM is making $99 grand, and that includes new hires and guys/gals working for a few years.

Therefore, it's consistent with my past comments that not all new grads are going to sign contracts in the mid 100's. I believe a lot of these young guys are in for a rude awakening. They WILL make a good living, but maybe not as quickly as they think or want.

Before anyone starts crying in his beer, let's not forget that $99,000 per year is still a lot of money. Most non-medical professionals will never make that much in the course of an entire career.
 
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