Recoupment cost for USUHS?

[whitey]

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I might be separated from the military. (There are several posts worth of info behind that statement, but I won't get into that now.) Does anyone know what the recoupment costs for USUHS are these days? 😱

 

[DrMetal]

I might be separated from the military. (There are several posts worth of info behind that statement, but I won't get into that now.) Does anyone know what the recoupment costs for USUHS are these days? 😱

Hard to say. First theyd have to calculate how much you owe them (how do you measue the tuition cost of Usuhs? Liken it to a public instate tuition, or a private school? Would they include the cost of books, materials, travel, your paycheck?) Second, there would have to be some mechanism of collection, which Im not sure that there is (maybe someone else could atest). I wouldnt be suprised if you were just let go, without any recoupment.

 

[NavyFP]

I might be separated from the military. (There are several posts worth of info behind that statement, but I won't get into that now.) Does anyone know what the recoupment costs for USUHS are these days? 😱

Depends on why. Would be happy to discuss in PM.

 

[whitey]

PM sent. I don't want this thread to devolve off the topic of USUHS recoupment, lets just say a bad OER was flagged by HRC and now a show cause action has been initiated.

 

[backrow]

Hard to say. First theyd have to calculate how much you owe them (how do you measue the tuition cost of Usuhs? Liken it to a public instate tuition, or a private school? Would they include the cost of books, materials, travel, your paycheck?) Second, there would have to be some mechanism of collection, which Im not sure that there is (maybe someone else could atest). I wouldnt be suprised if you were just let go, without any recoupment.

Oh don't worry there are definitely mechanisms in place for this. Recoupment for educational costs is not that uncommon due to the Service Academies and ROTC. Usually a bill arrives from DFAS from what I have seen on that side.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

This is the sort of thing for which you hire an attorney. If they kick you out for the good of the service, they can't just send you a bill and expect payment (well, they could, but they are inviting a fight.) First of all, you could easily debate the value of what they have given you, especially if you have not completed your degree and there is a question whether you have anything with which you can or will complete a medical degree. Medical school obviously isn't like undergrad or graduate school with transfer of credit being a common procedure. Second, if they are creating the circumstances for your discharge, their OER by their evaluators, and they have not afforded you an opportunity at remediation and cure of whatever defect they claim exists, then you would be within reason to refuse to pay them. And you having received the pay of an O-1 is not something they have any reasonable right to see returned either; companies that fire employees don't get to claim return of paid wages.

 

[backrow]

This is the sort of thing for which you hire an attorney. If they kick you out for the good of the service, they can't just send you a bill and expect payment (well, they could, but they are inviting a fight.) First of all, you could easily debate the value of what they have given you, especially if you have not completed your degree and there is a question whether you have anything with which you can or will complete a medical degree. Medical school obviously isn't like undergrad or graduate school with transfer of credit being a common procedure. Second, if they are creating the circumstances for your discharge, their OER by their evaluators, and they have not afforded you an opportunity at remediation and cure of whatever defect they claim exists, then you would be within reason to refuse to pay them. And you having received the pay of an O-1 is not something they have any reasonable right to see returned either; companies that fire employees don't get to claim return of paid wages.

Unfortunately that's not the way it works when it comes to a contract one has signed saying "I will do X for the govt paying for school." The OP has already graduated I believe so that part is out.

It doesn't matter the "value" as you describe but rather the expense paid by the govt. They would not seek recoupment of pay, but rather the cost of the education of that person against which from what I have seen in the past is prorated based on how much of the commitment has been paid back.

A "show cause" detachment would very likely cause the OP to have to pay some money, lawyer or not.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

The military administrators are quick to offer up the smug "you signed a contract so you have to pay us back" statement, as if that ends the discussion. It doesn't. That is where the litigation starts. With that comes all the stuff they don't want to deal with like breaches of promise, fraud and other counterclaims for which they legitimately could be found liable. Do they really want an hour-by hour comparison of didactic resources with a civilian training program? If they are smart, they won't.

 

[backrow]

The military administrators are quick to offer up the smug "you signed a contract so you have to pay us back" statement, as if that ends the discussion. It doesn't. That is where the litigation starts. With that comes all the stuff they don't want to deal with like breaches of promise, fraud and other counterclaims for which they legitimately could be found liable. Do they really want an hour-by hour comparison of didactic resources with a civilian training program? If they are smart, they won't.

I've seen the end result too often on the service academy side of things to give the OP false hope that he won't be paying money back to the gov't if he is truly detached for cause from the military prior to an obligation being completed. Even when lawyers have been involved.

If you have other experience, or experiences with USUHS/HPSP then I'm all ears. I'm not saying not to get a lawyer as that can help, but I wouldn't count on not sending a check to the US Govt when all is said an done.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

The value proposition of the service academies is more straightforward. An upperclassman leaving after the junior year lock-in still has at least two years of credit toward a degree somewhere, and in all probability, somewhere pretty desirable. He gets at least the value of 60 transferrable credit hours from a good state university and the military gets nada. Med school, not so much until you have graduated and passed your Steps. Even then, a lot would depend on your reasons for discharge. If it is something like height/weight/%body fat issues or a failed PRT, obviously no one outside the military will care; if it is disciplinary, like a drug screen or other misconduct, like DUI, then that is different, same for serial board failures. The "value" of your training is more open to question as your overall fitness to continue as a physician or acquire necessary licensing is in question. The situation of illness NPQ is a much more gray area, and one worth fighting over.

 

[whitey]

Yeah. I don't think it will be a "value proposition". I think it'll just be a matter of some bureaucrat conjuring some number which represents the supposed cost of a USUHS education, and that number appearing as a debt in DFAS. My original question was, how much will that be? What is the best way to find out?

 

[DrMetal]

Yeah. I don't think it will be a "value proposition". I think it'll just be a matter of some bureaucrat conjuring some number which represents the supposed cost of a USUHS education, and that number appearing as a debt in DFAS. My original question was, how much will that be? What is the best way to find out?

I think orbitsurg's comments/logic above is most accurate, though I hope backrow is right about there being some mechanism of recoupment. And I say "hope" with no disrespect to the OP, but rather in hopes that someone is indeed keeping tabs over the value of USUHS and those who don't fulfill their commitment. If there is no significant recoupment, then the entire program could be deemed a sham and come under heavy scrutiny.

Again, it's a difficult calculation that would have to be made and defended by competent people in the gov't. And seeing as how incompetence has no bounds in our gov't, you (the OP) could easily come out on top if you arm yourself with competent people (aka a good civilian lawyer who's versed in such things).

In any case, good luck . . . .and if you don't mind posting here again sometime in the future what the result of all this was (of course, whatever details you feel comfortable), that'd be great . . am curious how this plays out.