Recovering from Schizoaffective Disorder

[BestICan]

As the title indicates, I have been diagnosed with a severe mental illness that greatly impacted my functioning in college. I won't get into the details, but I will say that I have a 2.8 gpa (though I did take really challenging courses) and I have about 9 credits left to graduate. I will eventually go back and finish my bachelors, once I feel that I am capable of handling it.

Obviously, I would need to do more academic work after I get my bachelor's to demonstrate that I am capable of handling medical school. I am not too concerned about it, because I think that when my symptoms are controlled I am very academically capable and talented.

But it will always bother me that I received such low marks in college. Assuming I do well in future coursework, how much will medical schools hold my bad gpa against me? I feel that there should be an understanding that I was not able to perform at my best because of circumstances beyond my control.

Part of me even feels that it should be illegal for a graduate school to be able to see the grades of a person during the time that they were mentally ill. I know that the government gives mentally ill people certain protections in employment, but what about when they are applying to schools? It isn't right that my grades are compared to other applicants that didn't have a psychotic disorder. Of course, this is all assuming that I can demonstrate my academic aptitude in future coursework. But once that is accomplished to a reasonable degree, why should I have these bad marks dragging me down like an anchor around my neck? If it is possible to get the grades expunged, I would apply for that immediately. If it required a lawyer, I would hire a lawyer to pressure the school to get the grades expunged.

This really bothers me.

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[DrHart]

The problem is that as a doctor you'll be responsible for people's lives. You'll be essentially finishing your undergrad with a 2.8 and even with solid postbac grades, an undergrad gpa <3.0 is a pretty big flag. Even if you write about your mental illness in your essays - adcoms will see someone who struggled through college with a mental illness - it could definitely be seen as a risky admit. Retaking classes you scored low in and going DO might not be out of the picture.
I've heard many people say college is known to bring out any mental illnesses or disorders you might have, and I know you say you don't want to get to detailed about it, but did it take you four years to get treatment? Was there a point at which you thought something was up and should see a doctor?

 

[BestICan]

Retaking classes you scored low in and going DO might not be out of the picture.

What does DO stand for?

I've heard many people say college is known to bring out any mental illnesses or disorders you might have, and I know you say you don't want to get to detailed about it, but did it take you four years to get treatment? Was there a point at which you thought something was up and should see a doctor?

I've been mentally ill since high school, at least. Everyone there thought I was a psycho, and even my parents thought something was wrong, but they couldn't figure it out. I didn't work hard in high school and I couldnt focus that well but I got into a top 30 university. I went to college, did ok for about three semesters, and then my grades started dropping. I went all the way until my final semester at which point I met a girl (had a real honest relationship for the first time in my life!) and she convinced me that I needed help. So I left college, and have been trying hard for the last 3 years to recover.

Even if you write about your mental illness in your essays - adcoms will see someone who struggled through college with a mental illness - it could definitely be seen as a risky admit.

This is why I think equal opportunity laws should cover people with mental illnesses applying to grad schools.

I am more than capable of exceeding in an academic environment. Recently, for example, I scored the highest score on a standardized chemistry exam that anyone has ever scored in the history of the department at my local college. One concern I have is that medical school will be insufficiently challenging for me.

 

[DrHart]

What does DO stand for?

Give this thread a read: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/md-vs-do-guide.1142405/#post-16569280

I've been mentally ill since high school, at least. Everyone there thought I was a psycho, and even my parents thought something was wrong, but they couldn't figure it out. I didn't work hard in high school and I couldnt focus that well but I got into a top 30 university. I went to college, did ok for about three semesters, and then my grades started dropping. I went all the way until my final semester at which point I met a girl (had a real honest relationship for the first time in my life!) and she convinced me that I needed help. So I left college, and have been trying hard for the last 3 years to recover.

If your parents thought something was wrong but didn't take you to a doctor, I'm sorry but thats pretty rotten. It isn't your parents' job to diagnose you and if you or they thought something was wrong, you should've seen someone about it. If you did alright for the first three semesters, what changed? Did you get more stressed as time went on? Did classes get more difficult?

This is why I think equal opportunity laws should cover people with mental illnesses applying to grad schools.
I am more than capable of exceeding in an academic environment. Recently, for example, I scored the highest score on a standardized chemistry exam that anyone has ever scored in the history of the department at my local college.

Like I said, the difference is that you'll be responsible for people's lives. You won't be working an office job pencil pushing. If college exacerbated your mental illness, medical school could too. And afterward, being responsible for the lives of patients could even more so.
You'll need to prove you're capable - not just on a standardized chemistry exam, but on the MCAT.

One concern I have is that medical school will be insufficiently challenging for me.

Here's a big fat arrogant red flag if I saw one.

 

[BestICan]

I'm angry at my dad for not giving me more help in high school.

When I was at college, there was a series of social events that affected me deeply. I believe that's what caused it.

I'm sure I could get within the 99th percentile on the MCAT.

I'm sorry if you think that was an arrogant red flag. You're right, I shouldn't have said that. But its what I honestly think. I honestly believe that I wouldn't find med school challenging when my symptoms are under control.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Your last paragraph just proved that you are not ready for med school, or at least that you have no idea what you are trying to get yourself into.

Even people who DO score in the 95+ percentile and got a 4.0 think that med school is challenging.

 

[DrHart]

Yeah, maybe give it a few more years and reevaluate

 

[BestICan]

I have an inferiority complex, I suppose. Maybe I won't go to med school (it is unrealistic to expect my symptoms to improve enough for me to become a doctor), but I will take and I will ace the MCAT.

So I know that at least I could have done it.

 

[mathnerd88]

I have an inferiority complex, I suppose. Maybe I won't go to med school (it is unrealistic to expect my symptoms to improve enough for me to become a doctor), but I will take and I will ace the MCAT.

So I know that at least I could have done it.

That's not even the point. Your narcissism is what's going to cripple you. MD is pretty much out of the question with that low GPA.

You blamed your dad for not taking you to see a doctor. There are other ways you can help yourself. (You could go see a doctor yourself.) PLENTY of people on here have worse problems than you and don't blame others. You're really showing immaturity and makes you sound ill-prepared for medical school. Lesson you need to learn is that you work with what you have. You are managing your illness, which is great. I encourage you to continue to do that and try to succeed.

Scoring the highest score is nothing on a local academic exam. You're good at one subject, but that's not going to be enough.

 

[ComputerGuy365]

The thing adcoms will worry about is if your illness is preventing you from receiving good grades in college, how are you supposed to deal with rigorous med school course work?

 

[BestICan]

Your narcissism is what's going to cripple you.

My symptoms would cripple me regardless of whether I was narcissistic or not. I've been holding out hope that my symptoms would improve, but I don't think they will.

I'm sorry that you think I'm narcissistic. It was just always my goal to go to med school. And I still honestly believe that if my symptoms were under control that I would find med school, if not unchallenging, at least not as hard as other people experience it. When I say I don't think it would be challenging, I'm comparing it to something like studying nuclear engineering at Caltech. I think that would be more challenging.

If I was an athlete and said I thought division 2 atheletics wasn't challenging for me, would I be narcissistic?

 

[mathnerd88]

Your narcissism is what's going to cripple you.

My symptoms would cripple me regardless of whether I was narcissistic or not. I've been holding out hope that my symptoms would improve, but I don't think they will.

I'm sorry that you think I'm narcissistic. It was just always my goal to go to med school. And I still honestly believe that if my symptoms were under control that I would find med school, if not unchallenging, at least not as hard as other people experience it. When I say I don't think it would be challenging, I'm comparing it to something like studying nuclear engineering at Caltech. I think that would be more challenging.

If I was an athlete and said I thought division 2 atheletics wasn't challenging for me, would I be narcissistic?

The point is that you need to learn how to be humble. Being narcissistic is a turn off for adcoms, for your friends, and for your own patients.

I agree that some other professions and studies may be harder than medical school. Sure, but medical school is already pretty high up there.

And yes, to answer your last question, you are still narcissistic. You're being condescending towards those not as good as you. Imagine working for someone like you. Nobody would want to work with you since you think you're always better than everyone else. Being a physician requires teamwork. You're working with nurses, pharmacists, techs, etc. You're all part of a team in healthcare trying to fix health problems.

If you can't learn this, then you're not mature enough to go to medical school.

 

[BestICan]

And yes, to answer your last question, you are stillnarcissistic. You're being condescending towards those not as good as you. You cannot be like that as a doctor.

I guess being a doctor isn't for me then. I'd rather be right and be an dingus than be an effeminate pusillanimous simp who watches what they say.

I've always had that idea about doctors, but I still wanted to become one for some reason. Thank you for disabusing me of that desire.

 

[mathnerd88]

And yes, to answer your last question, you are stillnarcissistic. You're being condescending towards those not as good as you. You cannot be like that as a doctor.

I guess being a doctor isn't for me then. I'd rather be right and be an dingus than be an effeminate pusillanimous simp who watches what they say.

I've always had that idea about doctors, but I still wanted to become one for some reason. Thank you for disabusing me of that desire.

Becoming a doctor is a marathon. You'll realize later that it is indeed teamwork. You won't be able to function correctly without having a good team behind you. That's why ADCOMS care about leadership roles in medicine. It shows that you can handle a team.

Yes, you're the person giving the diagnosis and making all the decisions for the patient's good health, but you won't be able to do that without your team. You need to recognize the importance of others.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be a doctor. People will always change over time. Maybe right now it isn't the time for you (like you said.) You should always follow your passion, but also be aware of what being a physician is really about.

 

[DrHart]

I have an inferiority complex, I suppose. Maybe I won't go to med school (it is unrealistic to expect my symptoms to improve enough for me to become a doctor), but I will take and I will ace the MCAT.

So I know that at least I could have done it.

I think you mean superiority complex. And there is much more to being a doctor than acing the MCAT. And with an attitude like yours I doubt you could do it. Don't bother taking the MCAT if your only reason is to "know that at least you could have done it."

This went from you being a naive underdog to someone who thinks they're too good to even bother

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

At risk of sounding like a d*** here, I'm going to cut to the chase.

This is either a troll thread, or the OP has already demonstrated enough signs of ongoing illness (grandiosity, persecution) to indicate that they need further treatment and stabilization rather than consider pursuing medical school at this time.

As to the issue of wanting schools to ignore your grades. Tough? Sorry? That's not the way it works.

Whether you think it's beneath you or not - medical school will be significantly harder than undergrad, and you have a lifelong condition. There is no cure, just ongoing treatment with the possibility of relapsing or worsening disease. The best evidence of how you will handle future adversity is how you handled past adversity. And in that regards, the undergrad GPA is a huge red flag to medical schools. To clarify, this is not a stigma against mental illness. This is a concern that people who need help have to be able to reach out and get it. You demonstrated once that you lacked the self-awareness to do this. As a doctor, if you simply bury your head and try to power through when things are falling apart with your mental health? Patients could get hurt or killed. That's not acceptable for a physician.

So to med schools, you need to demonstrate two things. First is a sustained pattern of academic success. Second is an actionable plan for what you will do in the future if you have problems with your health.

 

[BestICan]

I think you mean superiority complex.

I meant inferiority complex. Take some time and think about it.

 

[BestICan]

Thank you for your frankness SouthernSurgeon. I appreciate it.

 

[DrHart]

I think you mean superiority complex.
I meant inferiority complex. Take some time and think about it.

define inferiority complex: an unrealistic feeling of general inadequacy caused by actual or supposed inferiority in one sphere, sometimes marked by aggressive behavior in compensation.
define superiority complex: an attitude of superiority that conceals actual feelings of inferiority and failure.

"One concern I have is that medical school will be insufficiently challenging for me."
"I honestly believe that I wouldn't find med school challenging when my symptoms are under control."
"I will take and I will ace the MCAT...So I know that at least I could have done it."

You tell me which complex you think you fit.

 

[BestICan]

define inferiority complex: an unrealistic feeling of general inadequacy caused by actual or supposed inferiority in one sphere, sometimes marked by aggressive behavior in compensation.
define superiority complex: an attitude of superiority that conceals actual feelings of inferiority and failure.

"One concern I have is that medical school will be insufficiently challenging for me."
"I honestly believe that I wouldn't find med school challenging when my symptoms are under control."
"I will take and I will ace the MCAT...So I know that at least I could have done it."

You tell me which complex you think you fit.

You already answered your question.

: an unrealistic feeling of general inadequacy caused by actual or supposed inferiority in one sphere, sometimes marked by aggressive behavior in compensation

I went through three and a half years where people though I was an autistic *****. I have some right to an inferiority complex.

 

[DrHart]

You already answered your question.
I went through three and a half years where people though I was an autistic *****. I have some right to an inferiority complex.

You're missing the point. As others in this thread have pointed out. You're arrogant and naive in saying that you can score in the 99th percentile on the MCAT and that medical school won't be challenging. You have a 2.8 GPA, believe me, you're wrong. You claim to be albert freaking einstein when you're on your meds... you have a superiority complex. a complex isn't something you "have a right to." you either have it or you don't.
sometimes you may feel inadequate, but from what you've said in this thread, I don't get that sense. good lord read a psychoanalysis book or something

 

[BestICan]

I sure do love pissing contests! DrHart, really, this is the most fun I've had in a month.

You're arrogant and naive in saying that you can score in the 99th percentile on the MCAT and that medical school won't be challenging.

I overstepped in saying it wouldn't be challenging. I meant less challenging than for other people.

And yes, I can score a 99th percentile on the MCAT. I've taken enough courses and reviewed enough material to know that I could accomplish that.

You have a 2.8 GPA, believe me, you're wrong.

Do you have any idea what was happening in my head when I took those courses? Do you know what schizoaffective is like? And for the record, the low GPA is because I never showed up for more than 1/2 of my classes.

a complex isn't something you "have a right to." you either have it or you don't.

And I thought I was autistic.

 

[DrHart]

I sure do love pissing contests! DrHart, really, this is the most fun I've had in a month.



I overstepped in saying it wouldn't be challenging. I meant less challenging than for other people.

And yes, I can score a 99th percentile on the MCAT. I've taken enough courses and reviewed enough material to know that I could accomplish that.



Do you have any idea what was happening in my head when I took those courses? Do you know what schizoaffective is like? And for the record, the low GPA is because I never showed up for more than 1/2 of my classes.



And I thought I was autistic.

Well regardless, good luck with your journey. Be sure to post in the MCAT forum when you get your 99%ile. We all love to hear a good, humble, success story.

 

[BestICan]

Be sure to post in the MCAT forum when you get your 99%ile. We all love to hear a good, humble, success story.

You'll have to wait a few years, as I have other priorities now, but it will happen. Not because I want to impress you, but because I want to prove it to myself.

 

[Dares Dareson]

:troll:

 

[ChrisMack390]

 

[Goro]

100% agree. Med school is a furnace, and I've seen it break even healthy students. OP, you have a long road to travel.

And kudos to SouthernS for his spot-on comments.

The thing adcoms will worry about is if your illness is preventing you from receiving good grades in college, how are you supposed to deal with rigorous med school course work?

 

[Ukpremed]

To clear something up for the OP, the MCAT is not a test of how much you know or how many classes you have had. The MCAT test more how you think.

 

[NeuResurgens]

As the title indicates, I have been diagnosed with a severe mental illness that greatly impacted my functioning in college. I won't get into the details, but I will say that I have a 2.8 gpa (though I did take really challenging courses) and I have about 9 credits left to graduate. I will eventually go back and finish my bachelors, once I feel that I am capable of handling it.

Obviously, I would need to do more academic work after I get my bachelor's to demonstrate that I am capable of handling medical school. I am not too concerned about it, because I think that when my symptoms are controlled I am very academically capable and talented.

But it will always bother me that I received such low marks in college. Assuming I do well in future coursework, how much will medical schools hold my bad gpa against me? I feel that there should be an understanding that I was not able to perform at my best because of circumstances beyond my control.

Part of me even feels that it should be illegal for a graduate school to be able to see the grades of a person during the time that they were mentally ill. I know that the government gives mentally ill people certain protections in employment, but what about when they are applying to schools? It isn't right that my grades are compared to other applicants that didn't have a psychotic disorder. Of course, this is all assuming that I can demonstrate my academic aptitude in future coursework. But once that is accomplished to a reasonable degree, why should I have these bad marks dragging me down like an anchor around my neck? If it is possible to get the grades expunged, I would apply for that immediately. If it required a lawyer, I would hire a lawyer to pressure the school to get the grades expunged.

This really bothers me.

This isn't about fairness - this is about an ability to care for patients. I'm sorry that you're experiencing this trial, but forcing medical schools to "ignore" low GPAs because of mental illness for the sake of political correctness is not going to cut it in a high-stakes field like medicine. People's lives are on the line; when it comes to measures of fitness for medicine, it is an all or nothing affair, not a game of relativity in which personal circumstances are used to correct for level of achievement. If you have a hardship which impairs your ability to succeed academically, it's not like a sick patient can be made less sick to accommodate you if that hardship arises again.

You will need to demonstrate that a) your illness is in full remission and can be reliably controlled and b) that you can succeed to a high degree in extremely consistent fashion. Medical schools are (as I've heard) very wary of severe mental illness, not because they "discriminate" against the mentally ill, but because having someone who is responsible for patients suffer a mental breakdown would actually be very dangerous.

 

[BestICan]

You cannot imagine what trials I have undergone just posting this here. I thank all of you for your advice, particuularly SouthernS. I really needed that kind of advice.

 

[dextertrip]

I guess being a doctor isn't for me then. I'd rather be right and be an dingus than be an effeminate pusillanimous simp who watches what they say.

Is this a direct quote from HOUSE?

 

[BestICan]

Is this a direct quote from HOUSE?

Good lord, all the stereotypes of pre-med kids are true. Does everybody on this site watch House?

 

[Symmetry11]

I've dealt with similar issues related to mental illness which affected my gpa. I was able to get non academic withdrawal retroactively for 6 semesters with documentation which brought my GPA back up to respectable form.

 

[Grace184]

I agree completely with SouthernSourgeon and thank him for him candor. I was a clinical psychiatric pharmacist in a psych hospital and finding the correct type of medications for your body can take an extremely impatient amount of time. They also will probably need to be adjusted throughout your life. Wherever you are, you always need to have, and have regular appointments with, your treatments team. I understand your want to get back to school but your mental health needs to come first. A 2.8 is not a disastrous comeback- there have been far lower comebacks done. More education and understanding needs to be taken on your part to understand how you need to personally deal with stressors (as med school will be full of them) and talk this through with your team. If you haven't already, I highly advise that you get a medical absence from school and check into a hospital for med stabilization and find the optimal med combo for you. There you can gain a treatment team, therapy, and a better understanding through your peers about what it is like to have this illness. No one is persecuting you- and you are not alone.

 

[ComputerGuy365]

Is this a direct quote from HOUSE?

Good lord, all the stereotypes of pre-med kids are true. Does everybody on this site watch House?

I'm personally a grey's fan, but I'm smart enough to know most of the scenarios are bull****. The medical terms used are often accurate, but the actual way in which the hospital is run is completely false.

 

[BestICan]

I cannot express how horrible this illness is in human words. It's like being crucified in your mind every day. Someday I hope to give others inspiration to get past it.

I agree completely with SouthernSourgeon and thank him for him candor. I was a clinical psychiatric pharmacist in a psych hospital and finding the correct type of medications for your body can take an extremely impatient amount of time. They also will probably need to be adjusted throughout your life. Wherever you are, you always need to have, and have regular appointments with, your treatments team. I understand your want to get back to school but your mental health needs to come first. A 2.8 is not a disastrous comeback- there have been far lower comebacks done. More education and understanding needs to be taken on your part to understand how you need to personally deal with stressors (as med school will be full of them) and talk this through with your team. If you haven't already, I highly advise that you get a medical absence from school and check into a hospital for med stabilization and find the optimal med combo for you. There you can gain a treatment team, therapy, and a better understanding through your peers about what it is like to have this illness. No one is persecuting you- and you are not alone.

I really, really appreciate this response. Thank you for your kindness.

I've dealt with similar issues related to mental illness which affected my gpa. I was able to get non academic withdrawal retroactively for 6 semesters with documentation which brought my GPA back up to respectable form.

I didn't know that this is a viable option. Can you go into detail?

 

[Grace184]

@BestICan it truly came from my heart- I have seen many young people at your age (as you probably know, the primary onset of all symptoms) and the best thing that can come out of it is taking months off to get stabilized. Heck, I don't know where you live-and there's not need to disclose- but as long as you are not a threat to yourself or others, you can go to a residential facility in Florida or California, where you can go out to the beach, go out to eat, etc, all while getting your meds adjusted. You don't have to be cooped up in an inpatient hospital for months in a gown. And you can still have a treatment team that will contact your home treatment team in depth for follow up so that's all established when you get home. And there will be others there that may be returning to the facility where you are bc they stopped taking meds or didn't follow through with their action plan, or thought they could do it on their own- and you can learn from them. You can also make connections with people who know what you're going through so when you get home and you feel alone, you can make a call to someone who knows exactly how you feel. Just think about it and what's best for your future- you have big goals that are achievable if you get in front of this now.

 

[Symmetry11]

I cannot express how horrible this illness is in human words. It's like being crucified in your mind every day. Someday I hope to give others inspiration to get past it.

I agree completely with SouthernSourgeon and thank him for him candor. I was a clinical psychiatric pharmacist in a psych hospital and finding the correct type of medications for your body can take an extremely impatient amount of time. They also will probably need to be adjusted throughout your life. Wherever you are, you always need to have, and have regular appointments with, your treatments team. I understand your want to get back to school but your mental health needs to come first. A 2.8 is not a disastrous comeback- there have been far lower comebacks done. More education and understanding needs to be taken on your part to understand how you need to personally deal with stressors (as med school will be full of them) and talk this through with your team. If you haven't already, I highly advise that you get a medical absence from school and check into a hospital for med stabilization and find the optimal med combo for you. There you can gain a treatment team, therapy, and a better understanding through your peers about what it is like to have this illness. No one is persecuting you- and you are not alone.

I really, really appreciate this response. Thank you for your kindness.

I've dealt with similar issues related to mental illness which affected my gpa. I was able to get non academic withdrawal retroactively for 6 semesters with documentation which brought my GPA back up to respectable form.

I didn't know that this is a viable option. Can you go into detail?

So how it works at my uni is that you write a petition for non academic withdrawal to a committee who may or may not approve such a request depending on your supporting documentation. so if you can prove that you were ill during the semesters you want rescinded then you might get approved. i was able to prove that the precipitous drop in my grades was due to my illness. did you talk to anyone during your struggles? like an authority figure? psychiatrist? professor? counselor? that can vouch for you? also consider if the cost is worth it to repeat a bunch of undergrad classes then potentially do an SMP or Post bacc afterwards or just graduate then do that without non academic withdrawal. i was able to get a one time refund from my institution for 1 semester as well due to the same process. everyone i encountered during this process was very helpful. and from what ive been advised on sdn from adcoms is that you should NEVER include that you have a mental illness in your application! so think about if you can explain away a string of non academic withdrawals in some other way. i wish you the best.

 

[DokterMom]

The problem isn't just getting into medical school, or even succeeding in medical school -- It's that your illness affects your judgement and perceptions; and if you become a physician, those impairments can kill someone. And that's a real problem.

I hate to rain on your parade OP, and I don't mean or wish to be unkind -- But your talents and challenges are better suited to a different field. One where your work can be put on hold if needed and resumed when possible, where your peak productive times can spur creative leaps, and where your darker times won't have the types of devastating consequences they could in medicine.

Just a minor shift in direction --

 

[gannicus89]

I wouldn't waste time studying for the MCAT if you have decided not to apply. Why...do that? Why pay for the exam? Just a waste of time and effort. Focus on getting better and stabilizing yourself. You seem to be displaying delusions of grandiosity. Are you still seeking treatment? I hope you are.

 

[WingedOx]

(pic)

Jesus, wtf is wrong with you?