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GypsyHummus said:
I agree that it's a "relatively recent" human phenomenon. But it is (or was) a step in human evolution As a game changer (agricultural revolution). It has progressed people to this point and is the healthiest thing for a society. It's the reason we don't live in caves anymore, and why women are not treated like cattle and why men aren't constantly slaughtered.

As a point, name me one society where polyamory is the norm that has achieved spaceflight, or a huge industrialized boom. The only place I can think of are places in the Middle East, and that is because of natural reasourves reserves.

Marriage protects both men and women. The general rule of thumb is that a women gives up her youth a fertility to one guy and bears his children and raise them together and that guy promises to not leave her (security) when she becomes older and when he acquires more resources. In return, they guy knows that the children are his. This used to be the deal before the state got involved, and it was a fine (not great deal) for both parties involved. And it was the best deal avalible for men who are not the top 20% of men, and for women who are older.

To break apart a marriage, something that both parties entered into mutually (there are no forced marriages in America as far as I know now) just because "feels" is silly and irresponsible. And people say "oh I'd rather be alone than be married to someone I hate". Dude, u chose that person, deal with it. This isn't like buying a car and saying you don't like it anymore. If you don't wanna get married, don't.

And it's easy to say this "oh I want divorce as an option" as a young good looking 20-30 something year old, but what happenes when you are 50? That's why we have "crazy cat ladies" and "confirmed bachelors" although men tend to take being single better than women do in older age.

And the best part is, because the marriage system is so bad and men are opting out, you hear so many women go "where have all the good men gone?". Well, monkey see, monkey don't do. Men see other men being dragged trough the family court system and don't sign up for the same treatment.
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Marriage is the reason we don't live in caves? lol.
And there are absolutely forced marriages in the US. Florida is rampant with it, in those cult like church communities, where 15 year olds are told they need to get married to the guy who molested them because God said so.
People change, even throughout a marriage. If a guy starts out normal but becomes a drunk who spends the family savings, no one should be forced to "deal with it."
It sounds like you've only heard one side of the story. Very few divorces are a result of "I'm bored and want something new." Most are due to serious problems. Dozens of psychological studies show that children do better growing up in a single parent household than in one where the parents hate each other. So tell me again how marriage is such a noble thing that should never be dissolved.


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GypsyHummus said:
I take it you aren't married? I take it you have never had to be dragged through family court? It's easy to say these thing beforehand and not know, but it shows a lack of empathy to say you don't care.

What happens when a male patient comes to you and is contemplating suicide because his wife took away his children and resources in a nasty devorce? It's an extremely common phenomenon.
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Not married and don't plan to be; I disagree with the institution as a whole. Been through family court as a kid though.
Never said I didn't care, I just said that people should have an out in a contract. The solution to the scenario you posed isn't to trap the wife and kids with a contract. You wouldn't fix anything if you went out and found that man's family and paid them to go back and live in the same house with him. You'd probably cause more stress and trauma in more people. Social problems happen, and they're real, and they affect patient lives and they should absolutely be taken seriously. But trapping people in unhappy marriages is a weird, harmful bandaid, not a solution.
 
Well again, my argument isn't for no divorce ever, there are certainly exception to the rule, but a majority of devorce in this country are because the women is "unhappy". They initiate something like 80% of divorces.

The whole "there are these evil christin churches that force marragies on rapist" argument is about as tiring as "what if the women was raped, you are going to Force her to keep the baby?" The expection proves the rule.

You can kind of tell who a person is if you spend enough time with them and their family. That is a poor excuse that "people change, my husband is not as fit as he used to be, so forget my marriage obligation and my parenting obligation and what's right for my kids lolz". If you marry a good outstanding guy, chances are you are going to get just that. If you marry a bad boy, u are gonna get just that.

It works for the men too. If you marry a women who focuses on her looks and doesn't improve her qualities like her character, chances are ur gonna get a supercificial women.

I would not marry someone who thinks marriage can be left at any time. That is a rescipe for problems. That's like taking on a business partner that's like "oh you are cool and all, but if things go sideways I'm not sticking with you. Oh, and if I leave, in taking half of your earnings because the court says I can."

Studies show that children who grow up in a two parent mother and father household do the best in society. In fact, it is in single mother household where children are 30 times ( not 30%) more likely to get abused by a boyfriend than with a biological father.

OrthoTraumaMD said:
Marriage is the reason we don't live in caves? lol.
And there are absolutely forced marriages in the US. Florida is rampant with it, in those cult like church communities, where 15 year olds are told they need to get married to the guy who molested them because God said so.
People change, even throughout a marriage. If a guy starts out normal but becomes a drunk who spends the family savings, no one should be forced to "deal with it."
It sounds like you've only heard one side of the story. Very few divorces are a result of "I'm bored and want something new." Most are due to serious problems. Dozens of psychological studies show that children do better growing up in a single parent household than in one where the parents hate each other. So tell me again how marriage is such a noble thing that should never be dissolved.


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GypsyHummus said:
Well again, my argument isn't for no divorce ever, there are certainly exception to the rule, but a majority of devorce in this country are because the women is "unhappy". They initiate something like 80% of divorces.

The whole "there are these evil christin churches that force marragies on rapist" argument is about as tiring as "what if the women was raped, you are going to Force her to keep the baby?" The expection proves the rule.

You can kind of tell who a person is if you spend enough time with them and their family. That is a poor excuse that "people change, my husband is not as fit as he used to be, so forget my marriage obligation and my parenting obligation and what's right for my kids lolz". If you marry a good outstanding guy, chances are you are going to get just that. If you marry a bad boy, u are gonna get just that.

It works for the men too. If you marry a women who focuses on her looks and doesn't improve her qualities like her character, chances are ur gonna get a supercificial women.

I would not marry someone who thinks marriage can be left at any time. That is a rescipe for problems. That's like taking on a business partner that's like "oh you are cool and all, but if things go sideways I'm not sticking with you. Oh, and if I leave, in taking half of your earnings because the court says I can."

Studies show that children who grow up in a two parent mother and father household do the best in society. In fact, it is in single mother household where children are 30 times ( not 30%) more likely to get abused by a boyfriend than with a biological father.
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That's actually exactly what business is like. If you don't fulfill your part of the bargain, your partner absolutely has the right to bail. Even in marriages, the parties agree to do certain things (vows) which, if broken, render the marriage annulled. Unhappiness, if long-standing and supported by facts (i.e. Husband is a drunk) is absolutely a reason to leave the marriage, and is used as part of the annulment process.
To say that people don't fundamentally change is naive. That "good boy" can come back from war and get ptsd and become an abusive alcoholic. Or he can lose his job and snap, we just had a respected physician, been in practice for 20 years, literally walk out of his job one day in clinic with a waiting room full of patients. He'd had enough and just said "**** you all, I'm done." You cannot know everything about a person when you marry them, nor can you predict the future or what events can fundamentally change them. All you can do is hope for the best.
And yes, 2 parent households are best, but that's not what I said. The EXCEPTION is cases of unhappy marriages, and studies show that in those cases single parent trumps two-parent every time.


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kb1900 said:
I don’t have much to contribute except this:

Using the words ‘alpha’ and ‘betas’ to describe social skills of people is extremely cringe.please stop
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QFT

skiier54 said:
...and think theyre going to meet some great gal online. id say nearly every person I know who is married met their spouse through a mutual friend or family recommendation, such that they knew the girl would be legit and vice versa. with online dating you have no idea what you're getting into. they say there are billions of women out there and theres one for everyone yada yada but like you said, most people are garbage and the actual number is far lower.
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as for this part. c'mon man...

That's kind of the whole point of online dating. You don't know what you're getting, so you go on dates! If it works out and there's some chemistry, cool. If it doesn't, move on and go on a date with someone else. Sometimes it'll be a dud and there's no connection. Sometimes you'll like her but she won't be interested. Sometimes she'll be into you and you'll have to say no. That's just grownup life, man.

The amount of people coming out of the woodwork to tell the internet that they lack social skills is just odd.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Well again, my argument isn't for no divorce ever, there are certainly exception to the rule, but a majority of devorce in this country are because the women is "unhappy". They initiate something like 80% of divorces.

The whole "there are these evil christin churches that force marragies on rapist" argument is about as tiring as "what if the women was raped, you are going to Force her to keep the baby?" The expection proves the rule.

You can kind of tell who a person is if you spend enough time with them and their family. That is a poor excuse that "people change, my husband is not as fit as he used to be, so forget my marriage obligation and my parenting obligation and what's right for my kids lolz". If you marry a good outstanding guy, chances are you are going to get just that. If you marry a bad boy, u are gonna get just that.

It works for the men too. If you marry a women who focuses on her looks and doesn't improve her qualities like her character, chances are ur gonna get a supercificial women.

I would not marry someone who thinks marriage can be left at any time. That is a rescipe for problems. That's like taking on a business partner that's like "oh you are cool and all, but if things go sideways I'm not sticking with you. Oh, and if I leave, in taking half of your earnings because the court says I can."

Studies show that children who grow up in a two parent mother and father household do the best in society. In fact, it is in single mother household where children are 30 times ( not 30%) more likely to get abused by a boyfriend than with a biological father.
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I agree, the argument shouldn't focus on weird exceptions, and in fact I lose respect for people's arguments if they support those exceptions (i.e. I have more respect for a staunch 'life begins at conception, no exceptions' stance than for a 'women should be forced to bear all of the children they conceive unless it isn't really their fault'arguments, despite that the former is ostensibly more diametrically opposed to my own views.)

This is no different. I don't think that divorce should exist because some marriages are abusive, I think that divorce should exist because nobody should be forced to remain in a marriage if they'd rather not.

Does that mean I think everyone should run around getting divorces every time they sneeze? Of course not. Does this mean that I think you should marry someone who thinks marriage should be left at the drop of a dime? Of course not; you should find someone to make a contract with who has similar goals for that contract/relationship/business arrangement. But forcing someone to stay in an unhappy marriage because they made a commitment years ago is like saying juvie records shouldn't be sealed, laser tattoo removal shouldn't exist, or even that people shouldn't grow and change (which most would argue is a good thing).

My parents got married young. She grew up, he didn't. She stayed as long as she could, because it was 'good for the family', and then divorced when she couldn't take it anymore. She never did a single better thing for me or our family than when she got that divorce. Feel free to judge her for her unhappiness, but guess what? I was unhappy too, and them staying together in misery would not have made my life any better or easier.

It's great that marriage is sacred to you, but it's not to me, and you shouldn't be able to force it to be. If you want marriage to be forever, then please divorce it (pun retroactively intended) from all of the legal things that go along with it - being able to see loved ones in the hospital, make medical decisions, have some level of guardianship over the kids, have tax breaks and insurance benefits, etc...so that those of us who find it abhorrent to think that our loved ones are chained to us instead of staying because they truly want to, can get those benefits without sacrificing our values. You don't have to get a divorce, or marry someone who would consider it. But don't try to argue with me that it shouldn't be an option except for situations that you approve of.
 
WingedOx said:
QFT



as for this part. c'mon man...

That's kind of the whole point of online dating. You don't know what you're getting, so you go on dates! If it works out and there's some chemistry, cool. If it doesn't, move on and go on a date with someone else. Sometimes it'll be a dud and there's no connection. Sometimes you'll like her but she won't be interested. Sometimes she'll be into you and you'll have to say no. That's just grownup life, man.

The amount of people coming out of the woodwork to tell the internet that they lack social skills is just odd.
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Yeah, why even bother with meeting people through mutual friends or family recommendations... go back to arranged marriages.
 
libertyyne said:
Yeah, why even bother with meeting people through mutual friends or family recommendations... go back to arranged marriages.
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I must have skimmed over the part in the OKCupid contract that stipulated that all matches were binding legal agreements...
 
I don’t have much to contribute to this discussuon as well but I like the idea of marriage as to me it represents finding that special someone. Sure, things don’t always work out. But I’d much rather live my llfe believing that there is more to it than just a random series of evolutionary-beneficial interactions.

Sad to see people so self-centered to describe marriage purely from standpoint of cost vs benefit, law, or evolution.
 
SunsFun said:
I don’t have much to contribute to this discussuon as well but I like the idea of marriage as to me it represents finding that special someone. Sure, things don’t always work out. But I’d much rather live my llfe believing that there is more to it than just a random series of evolutionary-beneficial interactions.

Sad to see people so self-centered to describe marriage purely from standpoint of cost vs benefit, law, or evolution.
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That's what marriage is, to me. The actual relationship is an entirely separate matter. To me, the one is not necessary for the other; they're separate components. And as I've already stipulated, I value the relationship aspect very deeply, and the contract aspect very little.

That being said, everything in life is a cost-benefit analysis. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to know that someone else views the benefit of spending time with me, loving me, being loved by me, helping me, being helped by me, etc...as greater than the cost of investing time and emotional energy into the relationship. I know that being in a relationship (and note that that includes more than romantic relationships) with me has costs, just as it costs me time and energy to remember my friends' birthdays, or throw them a party, or pick up their favorite snacks when I'm shopping so that I have them on hand when they're over and they need/want them, or talk to them for hours when their life hits a pothole, or run an errand for them when I know they're busy and it will help. Those are the costs of being a friend, but the benefits are greater than those costs...and to me, that is special. Same is true for a romantic relationship.
 
WingedOx said:
QFT



as for this part. c'mon man...

That's kind of the whole point of online dating. You don't know what you're getting, so you go on dates! If it works out and there's some chemistry, cool. If it doesn't, move on and go on a date with someone else. Sometimes it'll be a dud and there's no connection. Sometimes you'll like her but she won't be interested. Sometimes she'll be into you and you'll have to say no. That's just grownup life, man.

The amount of people coming out of the woodwork to tell the internet that they lack social skills is just odd.
Click to expand...
Dude chill out.. if internet dating is your thing then do it. I’ve met enough crazies through it that it’s not worth the time anymore.
 
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