regrets

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Fable

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Hi -

I'm a resident in EM and feeling a bit burnt out these days. I look to my attendings for reassurance that it's just residency and life well be better "on the other side", but many of them are so jaded and seem just as miserable as I feel most of the time. So I was wondering if any of you grads have regret over going into EM. If you had to do it again, would you have picked a different specialty or maybe a career path outside of clinical medicine? And if so, when did this feeling (whether you want to call it burn out, career dissatisfaction) begin? I'm seriously contemplating trying to do another residency because i just don't see myself happy in 5+ years and just wondering if anyone else felt the same?
 
No, n/a, n/a, and happily no. I'm sorry that EM doesn't seem to be the fit for you, but I really enjoy it. I think you may feel differently once you're in practice, maybe at a non-academic center. Good luck.
 
Just graduated last June and started my first job in a medium town/small city community hospital. Like it a lot, though a lot of the time I second-guess myself. I had to decide if I wanted busy urban, county or teaching and of all the environments I experienced in residency I liked the community practice best. I don't miss the county trauma, drama and population, although I am grateful that I had the opportunity to care (practice on) for them.

I work less hours, get paid a lot more and spend less time arguing with other services as to which of them has to admit, which in itself made for a lot of stress.

I'm hoping the comfort level goes up as the experience level rises. But otherwise, I like it.
 
Making 5-6x as much, working 25-50% fewer hours, and not having to run all your patients by someone else make being an attending more rewarding then being a resident. There's still aggravations (well documented in numerous threads) but they're easier to deal with when relatively well-rested and well-compensated. Academics can be a grind unless you really love teaching or are big into research, since you're working more and making less than your community dwelling colleagues. Especially if you are mostly farmed out to the outlying community hospitals where you have all the downsides of community ED (pressure to move the meat while keeping up PG scores and appeasing other services) while make 60% of the money.
 
I am just out of residency and have to say its exponentially better than life as a resident. I went from a large, resource heavy institution to a county / urban style of practice with community financial driven expectations and I'm not too keen on that, but fewer shifts, more autonomy, higher pay, combined with what I believe to be an amazing specialty all make me a very happy boy!
 
I think residency burns everyone out. Life as an attending definitely is WAY better. Does burnout occur as an attending? It definitely can occur, but doesn't always. I have documented the things I like and dislike about the specialty ad nauseum that can be looked up in my other posts. The secret to avoiding burnout, in my humble burned-out opinion is to work less. I've gone through stretches where I've worked 110 hrs per month and its great. I've gone through stretches where I've worked 200hrs per month and every shift, every patient, every hour is painful. Now, being disciplined enough to always live a lifestyle you can support on 110hr per month... That's another thread entirely. Finding a job that'll let you only work 110 hr per month indefinitely...another thread entirely. You have to decide, in my opinion, if you're feeling burned out mainly because you're an overwork resident, or if you're just finding Emergency Medicine is not right for you. If it's just being a resident that's wearing you down, switching will just prolong it. Being an attending definitely is better. If you just flat out don't like EM, that's entirely different. Residency is so busy, it'll be over before you know it.
 
hell no! i am a pgy-1 in residency, currently on off service rotations and every single day I am happy that I chose this profession/residency. I waited 18 yrs to get here and have never looked back. keep your chin up, hopefully you'll have some better days ahead of you.
 
Happiness is a perception, the requisite components of which are always being newly defined or changing as we progress through life. It really is a state of mind. Maybe that's a little too much Ghandi for the forum, but that's my personal philosophy. There is no perfect specialty, there is no perfect career for that matter. Hell, I don't consider there to be a perfect...much of anything, except certain beers, nude women and cigars, some of which can come close. I think burn out is a danger for any specialty.

Residency is tough, you work longer hours and endure an enormous amount of stress, but I really considering second guessing your residency choice to be dangerous for anyone, after all... what if you change residency and then it's not what you expected, and you regret your decision? Then, you've wasted valuable time and opportunity chasing after a mirage in the distance. Finish residency, try out different practice environments, work fewer shifts, find some new hobbies outside work, spend time with your family, etc.. I guarantee that you probably won't feel so burned out at that point. Weather the storm my friend, residency is not meant to be a cake walk.

I was a career changer, switching to medicine after a mid-life crisis. Is medicine what I thought it would be? Hell no, and some shifts in the ED are downright painful, but I still can't imagine a better fit for me personally, and you've got so much control over your lifestyle and work load after residency that I find "burn out" to be more of a psychological state than anything specific to emergency medicine.

EM is fun dude... You'll be an attending soon enough and when you find that sweet practice environment and are reading your pay stubs while on vacation somewhere, or out to dinner with no pager to worry about, you'll be in a different frame of mind. Personally, I have a lot of outside interests besides medicine which is why I picked the specialty in the first place, because it affords me indulgence in those interests, yet I still get the chance to make a difference in patient's lives.

I just really don't understand why people jump ship halfway through residency. If you're really that disenchanted, at least finish it out and only then consider something else. I think you owe that to yourself. It's really difficult to make a judgement call on how the rest of your life will be in EM from a resident's eyes only. After all, we have probably more control over our lifestyle, work load and practice setting than most other specialties. Will I feel any differently 20 yrs from now? Probably...but it's hard enough for me to plan 1 week ahead, much less that far. I was never any good at that "where do you want to be 10 yrs from now"... type discussion in the high school counselor's office. Hopefully 20-30 yrs from now I'll be on a tropical island, holding a stiff drink in one hand and surrounded by bikini clad women....hopefully without an ICD/pacer implanted so that if I do have a heart attack, I can go out with a smile on my face.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Love the post above from Groove.

I'm a career changer as well. Spent a dozen years in something else before going back to med school. I'm a third year still trying to figure out my specialty, leaning towards EM right now. That might change...

Anyway, I left behind a career that in hindsight wasn't too bad. I'll probably be glad once I'm off in attending land and start having a paycheck again. But i'd be careful about jumping ship at this point. Not sure what year you are, but i'd just finish residnecy and work for a few years before you think about switching. Once you put certain wheels in motion it's hard to go back even if it was a bad decision.
 
Fable,

One thing you could also consider is finishing your EM residency and doing a Pain and Palliative care fellowship, which just recently became an official EM sub-specialty. That way you'd be board certified in EM and sub-specialty boarded in Pain and Palliative care. That would allow you to create a mix of outpatient work and ED shifts that suits you best. Just a thought. I might have considered this if it was available when I graduated.
 
Fable, can you pinpoint why you feel so burned out?

I finished residency 4 yrs ago. I remember feeling burned out in my second year due to numerous stressors (lack of confidence due to lack of experience, felt like I didn't have enough time/energy to read and study, had a hard time adjusting to the many different practice styles of the ER attendings and floor residents, lack of respect from nurses and other staff, etc). Things definitely improved for me in my last yr of residency. I remained optimistic because people kept telling me things would get better.

Now that Ive been out of residency for several yrs, I can honestly say things have gotten even better for me. Yes, getting paid more and working less is a huge plus. But having more confidence and competence definitely has made my job more enjoyable. Also, I feel that I have more control over the management and care of pts, which has surprisingly reduced the stress level and increased my job satisfaction.

However, I don't want you to think I am completely in love with my job now. I have other issues with the field of EM that I was mostly sheltered from as a resident...press ganey, even more pressure to move the meet, being dumped on by community docs and nursing homes, pt's personality disorders, drug seekers, unrealistic pt expectations, etc. There are many days where I still feel burned out and think about quitting or doing another residency. But I have sort of realized that every job or specialty has its negatives and I just have to appreciate the fact that I make a good amt of money while working less hrs than most people. Therefore I can have a lot of hobbies, stay in shape, spend lots of time with my wife and children, travel, etc.

In summary, I think you have to figure out what it is about EM that bothers you. It may just be fatigue and the usual anxieties regarding your competence and progress as a resident. My experience has been that those problems generally go away after you graduate. However, if what bothers you are some of the things I mentioned in the paragraph above, you may want to consider switching careers, specialties, or maybe a fellowship after you graduate. Hope this helps.
 
What is needed for life, and success in Emergency Medicine is embodied in the poem by Rudyard Kipling

IF.....

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

Just change the last line to say, you'll be an Emergency Physician, my offspring! (to be gender neutral and politically correct)
 
Happiness is a perception, the requisite components of which are always being newly defined or changing as we progress through life. It really is a state of mind. Maybe that's a little too much Ghandi for the forum, but that's my personal philosophy. There is no perfect specialty, there is no perfect career for that matter. Hell, I don't consider there to be a perfect...much of anything, except certain beers, nude women and cigars, some of which can come close. I think burn out is a danger for any specialty.

Residency is tough, you work longer hours and endure an enormous amount of stress, but I really considering second guessing your residency choice to be dangerous for anyone, after all... what if you change residency and then it's not what you expected, and you regret your decision? Then, you've wasted valuable time and opportunity chasing after a mirage in the distance. Finish residency, try out different practice environments, work fewer shifts, find some new hobbies outside work, spend time with your family, etc.. I guarantee that you probably won't feel so burned out at that point. Weather the storm my friend, residency is not meant to be a cake walk.

I was a career changer, switching to medicine after a mid-life crisis. Is medicine what I thought it would be? Hell no, and some shifts in the ED are downright painful, but I still can't imagine a better fit for me personally, and you've got so much control over your lifestyle and work load after residency that I find "burn out" to be more of a psychological state than anything specific to emergency medicine.

EM is fun dude... You'll be an attending soon enough and when you find that sweet practice environment and are reading your pay stubs while on vacation somewhere, or out to dinner with no pager to worry about, you'll be in a different frame of mind. Personally, I have a lot of outside interests besides medicine which is why I picked the specialty in the first place, because it affords me indulgence in those interests, yet I still get the chance to make a difference in patient's lives.

I just really don't understand why people jump ship halfway through residency. If you're really that disenchanted, at least finish it out and only then consider something else. I think you owe that to yourself. It's really difficult to make a judgement call on how the rest of your life will be in EM from a resident's eyes only. After all, we have probably more control over our lifestyle, work load and practice setting than most other specialties. Will I feel any differently 20 yrs from now? Probably...but it's hard enough for me to plan 1 week ahead, much less that far. I was never any good at that "where do you want to be 10 yrs from now"... type discussion in the high school counselor's office. Hopefully 20-30 yrs from now I'll be on a tropical island, holding a stiff drink in one hand and surrounded by bikini clad women....hopefully without an ICD/pacer implanted so that if I do have a heart attack, I can go out with a smile on my face.

Just my 2 cents.

sage wisdom
 
Happiness is a perception, the requisite components of which are always being newly defined or changing as we progress through life. It really is a state of mind. Maybe that's a little too much Ghandi for the forum, but that's my personal philosophy. There is no perfect specialty, there is no perfect career for that matter. Hell, I don't consider there to be a perfect...much of anything, except certain beers, nude women and cigars, some of which can come close. I think burn out is a danger for any specialty.

Residency is tough, you work longer hours and endure an enormous amount of stress, but I really considering second guessing your residency choice to be dangerous for anyone, after all... what if you change residency and then it's not what you expected, and you regret your decision? Then, you've wasted valuable time and opportunity chasing after a mirage in the distance. Finish residency, try out different practice environments, work fewer shifts, find some new hobbies outside work, spend time with your family, etc.. I guarantee that you probably won't feel so burned out at that point. Weather the storm my friend, residency is not meant to be a cake walk.

I was a career changer, switching to medicine after a mid-life crisis. Is medicine what I thought it would be? Hell no, and some shifts in the ED are downright painful, but I still can't imagine a better fit for me personally, and you've got so much control over your lifestyle and work load after residency that I find "burn out" to be more of a psychological state than anything specific to emergency medicine.

EM is fun dude... You'll be an attending soon enough and when you find that sweet practice environment and are reading your pay stubs while on vacation somewhere, or out to dinner with no pager to worry about, you'll be in a different frame of mind. Personally, I have a lot of outside interests besides medicine which is why I picked the specialty in the first place, because it affords me indulgence in those interests, yet I still get the chance to make a difference in patient's lives.

I just really don't understand why people jump ship halfway through residency. If you're really that disenchanted, at least finish it out and only then consider something else. I think you owe that to yourself. It's really difficult to make a judgement call on how the rest of your life will be in EM from a resident's eyes only. After all, we have probably more control over our lifestyle, work load and practice setting than most other specialties. Will I feel any differently 20 yrs from now? Probably...but it's hard enough for me to plan 1 week ahead, much less that far. I was never any good at that "where do you want to be 10 yrs from now"... type discussion in the high school counselor's office. Hopefully 20-30 yrs from now I'll be on a tropical island, holding a stiff drink in one hand and surrounded by bikini clad women....hopefully without an ICD/pacer implanted so that if I do have a heart attack, I can go out with a smile on my face.

Just my 2 cents.

:bow:

I'm just a 2nd year, but I know truth and wisdom when I see it.
 
I've been having second thoughts as well, mostly thinking EM doesn't fit my personality and treatment philosophy as well as I thought it did. However, I've also been under a lot of other stress aside from residency (pregnant my intern year, very undesirable living situation with me, two children, and husband in a one bedrom apartment) that has made me very homesick, tired, and has effected my personality, priorities, etc.
I've been telling myself it'll get better and this dissatisfaction is circumstantial. The problem is, the time to change is now (or rather a month ago during interview season). I sincerely hope things do get better, cuz if I find myself still at odds with EM next year, I'm basically stuck.
It's also rough not being able to talk to people about struggles, as the last thing I feel comfortable telling my classmates/attendings is that I don't love it and am having second thoughts. Everyone seems so gung-ho about the field, it almost sounds like an insult to say anything otherwise.
 
Happiness is a perception, the requisite components of which are always being newly defined or changing as we progress through life. It really is a state of mind. Maybe that's a little too much Ghandi for the forum, but that's my personal philosophy. There is no perfect specialty, there is no perfect career for that matter. Hell, I don't consider there to be a perfect...much of anything, except certain beers, nude women and cigars, some of which can come close. I think burn out is a danger for any specialty.

Residency is tough, you work longer hours and endure an enormous amount of stress, but I really considering second guessing your residency choice to be dangerous for anyone, after all... what if you change residency and then it's not what you expected, and you regret your decision? Then, you've wasted valuable time and opportunity chasing after a mirage in the distance. Finish residency, try out different practice environments, work fewer shifts, find some new hobbies outside work, spend time with your family, etc.. I guarantee that you probably won't feel so burned out at that point. Weather the storm my friend, residency is not meant to be a cake walk.

I was a career changer, switching to medicine after a mid-life crisis. Is medicine what I thought it would be? Hell no, and some shifts in the ED are downright painful, but I still can't imagine a better fit for me personally, and you've got so much control over your lifestyle and work load after residency that I find "burn out" to be more of a psychological state than anything specific to emergency medicine.

EM is fun dude... You'll be an attending soon enough and when you find that sweet practice environment and are reading your pay stubs while on vacation somewhere, or out to dinner with no pager to worry about, you'll be in a different frame of mind. Personally, I have a lot of outside interests besides medicine which is why I picked the specialty in the first place, because it affords me indulgence in those interests, yet I still get the chance to make a difference in patient's lives.

I just really don't understand why people jump ship halfway through residency. If you're really that disenchanted, at least finish it out and only then consider something else. I think you owe that to yourself. It's really difficult to make a judgement call on how the rest of your life will be in EM from a resident's eyes only. After all, we have probably more control over our lifestyle, work load and practice setting than most other specialties. Will I feel any differently 20 yrs from now? Probably...but it's hard enough for me to plan 1 week ahead, much less that far. I was never any good at that "where do you want to be 10 yrs from now"... type discussion in the high school counselor's office. Hopefully 20-30 yrs from now I'll be on a tropical island, holding a stiff drink in one hand and surrounded by bikini clad women....hopefully without an ICD/pacer implanted so that if I do have a heart attack, I can go out with a smile on my face.

Just my 2 cents.

This advice certainly is powerfully worded; may I offer the counter view?

I started my residency in psychiatry before switching to EM but this is not to say that I loved psychiatry head and shoulders above all other specialties as a medical student. I loved many specialties (in the 8-10 week window that I had for them as a student). Many people debate specialties such as surgery and EM or IM and FM etc....

Also, the decision of a specialty is made based on the brief experiences a person has as a medical student which are colored heavily by the people, grades, and cases that happen to come during that time. Also, specialties such as EM can regionally very different.

If people begin a residency and after day in and day out of practicing the medicine begin to have doubts about their career it is very healthy to try and decipher why. For some people, it is simply because they are a resident and they are tired, but for many people it is because the specialty they chose is not what they expected for themselves.

If a resident waits to complete say ophthalmology before switching to emergency medicine, they will be many years removed from their obstetric knowledge, their internal medicine knowledge etc and will be at a real disadvantage in trying to get an EM residency and in performing well during it. This would be true of many specialties (psychiatry, optho, PM&R, etc.) and would be unique to the situation (I mean depends on the other specialty being considered).

Also, it is important to know that many medicare funding dependent graduate training programs lose money on residents who switch / start over later than their PGY 1 year and so it is also harder switch at that point. This is not all but it is a consideration.

Speaking from my experiences, I started residency in psychiatry and found that I truly enjoyed my off-service rotations more than my on-service ones. I was repeatedly told that it was likely intern blues but I felt like it wasn't. I hadn't had any exposure to EM as a medical student but did as a resident and liked it. You're exactly right that I had great fears that I might be switching into the wrong field, but I was pretty sure that psychiatry wasn't going to lead me to my bliss and so in some senses I had nothing to lose and only everything to gain. I can gaurantee I am better and happier person for the switch.

I also can tell you of someone else very dear to me who began disliking their residency very early on but told themselves it was residency only and stuck it out. Now they are in practice and remain unsatisfied but do not wish to switch at this point given how much time they have put into things and how far removed they are from other specialties.

And getting back to the Ghandi reference, happiness is in part what we bring to the table, but acceptance of something that is wrong for us is never something he would proposed. My understanding of him (as I have no personal contact other than sharing the same Indian blood), is that he was very introspective of himself, his ability to change his life and that of those around him, and of our people. He was unaccepting of british rule of India and sought aggressively to change it. He had dreams for his law practice but found an alternative purpose in life. I believe if he had stuck out his legal practice and then later decided to change into politics and helping the poor we (all of society) may be the worse off. My understanding of him is that he would advocate great introspection on the part of a resident and the never ending pursuit of improvement in ones life....which it sounds like some of these EM residents are doing.

The opportunity for regret is present for people no matter what they chose; it is there if you switch residencies and if you do not. It should not paralyze people from change if it feels like the right decision.

Just my 2 rupees (since we talked about Ghandi and all) 😉

TL
 
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Hi Fable.

Allow me to say that I personally don't think EM is the greatest thing since sliced bread like everyone else here seems to. I believe you are getting a very skewed view of things by talking to people on a medical forum. I have been in medicine for 15 years and can honestly say I have NEVER gotten on a medical forum until today, and that was because I was looking for something specific and stumbled across this. I only logged in to post here so I could counter all the happy go lucky thrilled to be an ER Doc people responding to you.

I do not know ANY ER doctors who feel the way most of these posters do. I find that ER allows me to make a very good living and have a flexible schedule, but the hours are long, and the patient population at least where I live is truly painful.

I switched to ER after a year in surgery. I liked surgery much better but knew myself well enough to know I didn't want to be on call all the time as there are things in my life MUCH more important to me than medicine, which is my job.

Yes, life gets better after residency, although honestly there are things I miss about it too. BUT, if your gut and your heart are telling you something, it would never be foolish to listen.

Everyone is different and while people frequenting this board may be thrilled with their career choice, that is probably why they are on an EM chat forum. The rest of us understand your reservations, and looking into your other options will at least make you feel empowered to make whatever choice is best for you. Good luck!!
 
I'm with FarmGirl.
Many, many people in medicine never had real jobs before residency. Yeah, some shadowed, or worked in a clinic, or whatever. There are a select few who were working for a living then went back to medicine. And part of that is the stigma against letting 40 year olds start medical school.
That being said, the vast majority of people in every walk of life don't go to work because they just love being there. They go to pay the bills. Most people also don't hate going to work, but if you watch sitcom television, you would think they all do. Go to any blue-collar union town, and step in a bar. Ask them if they all love their job, and be prepared to duck.
I'm not saying that if you truly hate what you do every day you shouldn't change. I'm saying that you shouldn't expect work to be constant orgasms. Some days are awesome. Some days suck. The benefit of EM is that if your boss really sucks, or your physical plant, or whatever, it is much easier to change sites than if you have an established practice with patients and partner buy in, etc.
 
Jumping in kind of late, but I think it would be helpful if you tried to pinpoint what it is exactly that is making you feel less happy.

I could argue how much happier I am now compared to any other time in my life but I would say its multifactorial (money, wife is healthy, two kids are healthy, my two cars are nice and they work, and i have literally no stress in my ilfe). But that doesn't really matter to you who isn't feeling the love right now.

I can tell you every winter while I was a residnet I began to feel a little "burnt out." Also you'll find that your attendings at your residency program aren't the best gauges for teh "average ER doc." Life in academics isn't... always rosy. That's why I left in a hurry! haha.
Q
 
Hi Fable.

Allow me to say that I personally don't think EM is the greatest thing since sliced bread like everyone else here seems to. I believe you are getting a very skewed view of things by talking to people on a medical forum. I have been in medicine for 15 years and can honestly say I have NEVER gotten on a medical forum until today, and that was because I was looking for something specific and stumbled across this. I only logged in to post here so I could counter all the happy go lucky thrilled to be an ER Doc people responding to you.

I do not know ANY ER doctors who feel the way most of these posters do. I find that ER allows me to make a very good living and have a flexible schedule, but the hours are long, and the patient population at least where I live is truly painful.

I switched to ER after a year in surgery. I liked surgery much better but knew myself well enough to know I didn't want to be on call all the time as there are things in my life MUCH more important to me than medicine, which is my job.

Yes, life gets better after residency, although honestly there are things I miss about it too. BUT, if your gut and your heart are telling you something, it would never be foolish to listen.

Everyone is different and while people frequenting this board may be thrilled with their career choice, that is probably why they are on an EM chat forum. The rest of us understand your reservations, and looking into your other options will at least make you feel empowered to make whatever choice is best for you. Good luck!!

FarmGirl74,

I know this is your first time on this forum, but not everyone thinks EM is all sh--s and giggles. I've editorialized about the negatives about the specialty (as well as the positives):

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10630711&postcount=30

I've also written about what makes the specialty so hard to do for a whole career:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10630732&postcount=36

The way I felt about EM when I was 26 and single has changed dramatically after 10+ years and post wife and kids. My intent is not to tell anyone not to go into EM, just to know what they're getting into, for better or for worse. There are some things I know now, that I wish I knew then, and that I was told, but ignored.
 
The worst problem I've seen with EM recruitment is the continual emphasis on what you DON'T have to do...not what you get to do. This creates candidates who are infinitely chasing ideals of NOT doing certain things rather than focusing on what they are privileged to work with.

Then everyone gets surprised when these same candidates are disillusioned because they have do DO so much they don't want to do despite working so hard in medical school to reach what they think is a great job.

Focus on what you loved to begin with. Think of why you chose this to begin with. Yes, there are people out there in medical careers making more money for less work than you do. Deal. The reverse holds true, too. So what?

EM is awesome. Take time to think clearly about what you get to do, and consider what you want your end product (career-wise) to be. And make it happen.

I spent many an hour hanging in the ED talking to all the folks who make that world spin. Way more than half were in your shoes at one time and they came through. Go talk to your mentors and friends. Keep your chin up. Residency is hard for everybody. It ends.

Good luck.
 
The worst problem I've seen with EM recruitment is the continual emphasis on what you DON'T have to do...not what you get to do. This creates candidates who are infinitely chasing ideals of NOT doing certain things rather than focusing on what they are privileged to work with.

Then everyone gets surprised when these same candidates are disillusioned because they have do DO so much they don't want to do despite working so hard in medical school to reach what they think is a great job.

QFT.

I went to med school at a place where the EM program towers over just about every other specialty (except perhaps neurology and psych) and I know a lot of (currently unhappy) people who ended up in EM for this very reason...all the "don'ts."

I don't have to round. I don't have to go the OR. I don't have to go to clinic. I don't have to....

Choose EM (or any specialty for that matter) in the first place for the "do's" and "get to's."
 
The worst problem I've seen with EM recruitment is the continual emphasis on what you DON'T have to do...not what you get to do. This creates candidates who are infinitely chasing ideals of NOT doing certain things rather than focusing on what they are privileged to work with.

This is an excellent point and IMHO reflects a major problem with EM recruitment and medical student perceptions of EM.

EM is too sexy, in some respects it is a case of lipstick on a pig.

Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I think the specialty is uniquely positioned to engender infatuation in the eyes of medical students. This is because the things that attract people to EM (i.e. messy trauma) is not the thing that sustains most people for 30 years. I'm still a resident and the sheen of major trauma is already starting to darken although as an M4 I was wide eyed with glee.

In my limited experience as a resident, there is one SUREFIRE way to burn out as a resident. That is to be a person who does not handle pressure well. I think this is the critical fork in the road for the medical student pursuing EM - to ask themselves if they are that person. There are a few people I know who just decompensate so quickly in critical situations and they are among the least happy people in EM I have come across (from interns to senior attendings). My perception of them is that every critical patient is a terror-inducing challenge, and to me that seems like a recipe for career dissatisfaction.
 
Many, many people in medicine never had real jobs before residency. Yeah, some shadowed, or worked in a clinic, or whatever. There are a select few who were working for a living then went back to medicine. And part of that is the stigma against letting 40 year olds start medical school.
That being said, the vast majority of people in every walk of life don't go to work because they just love being there. They go to pay the bills. Most people also don't hate going to work, but if you watch sitcom television, you would think they all do. Go to any blue-collar union town, and step in a bar. Ask them if they all love their job, and be prepared to duck.
I'm not saying that if you truly hate what you do every day you shouldn't change. I'm saying that you shouldn't expect work to be constant orgasms. Some days are awesome. Some days suck. The benefit of EM is that if your boss really sucks, or your physical plant, or whatever, it is much easier to change sites than if you have an established practice with patients and partner buy in, etc.

Right on 👍

You'll have to ask me about EM in about 10 years, but I have had multiple other jobs before med school. No one I know LOVES every single thing about their job. I think if your 'good days' at work make you happy with your career choice - it is all you can ask for. It is just the nature of 'life and happiness', I suppose. No matter what it is - even your kids and family sometimes annoy the s**t out of you. ‘Constant high' is unsustainable and probably unhealthy, so for the most part it is all about your perspective, attitude and having realistic expectations.
My significant other happened to do for a living what many people pay lots and lots of money to do as a hobby, which he used to do as well. Predictably, once it becomes your job, it is like any other job - bureaucracy, corporate BS, long hours, etc.. There are plenty of days when he's dreading going to work, but there is nothing else he'd rather do. And I have definitely noticed that the amount of sleep, free time, and the ease of paying the bills each month (all variable) correlates greatly with his job satisfaction.
 
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Switch to psychiatry.

Half or more of the job of EM is psychiatric. Substance abuse opiate/benzo seeker? Cocaine withdrawal? Suicidal? Somatizers? Lumbago/depression? Fibromyalgia/chronic pain? At least in psychiatry you'll be able to focus on that as your treatment goal rather than perpetually being torn down by it trying to get at some other issue. And lets not forget soon, the ED will be swimming with nursing home dumps and social admits as the population ages - are you ready to practice shot gun veterinary medicine? Plus it has to get old checking boxes for the chest pain or belly pain work up every single day. It did for me after only a few weeks.
 
Switch to psychiatry.

Half or more of the job of EM is psychiatric. Substance abuse opiate/benzo seeker? Cocaine withdrawal? Suicidal? Somatizers? Lumbago/depression? Fibromyalgia/chronic pain? At least in psychiatry you'll be able to focus on that as your treatment goal rather than perpetually being torn down by it trying to get at some other issue. And lets not forget soon, the ED will be swimming with nursing home dumps and social admits as the population ages - are you ready to practice shot gun veterinary medicine? Plus it has to get old checking boxes for the chest pain or belly pain work up every single day. It did for me after only a few weeks.

It's obvious that you have only spent a few weeks in the ED. half of ED is not psych. Over the last 3 months, I only had to admit 2 to psych service, and B52 another 3 for being combative. So, that's 5 /~600 patients. No where near half...
It's true that chest pain and abdominal pain are very common, but the variety of other complaints and DDX in the ED setting is broadest. This is what attracts most people to EM. No two days are the same. On top of it, there are a ton of procedures if you're into that kind of thing.

Doesn't it get old for General Surgery to do lap chole and appy every freaking day? Doesn't it get old for Ortho do to knee and hip all day? Doesn't it get old for psychiatry dealing with schizo and depression all day long? prescribing the same drugs over and over? I'm not putting down any other specialty here, just making the point that everything gets old. EM is actually the least out of them all. For every chest pain that we admit, that same patient is to be rounded on the floor by some IM doc for the next few days. They don't disapppear, it's not like IM is shielded from seeing chest pain patients. Those "dirtbags" that ya hate...well, we see them for 2 hrs, IM see them for 2 days. Pick your poison.

It takes a very special individual to do psychiatry....

If you can't hang with EM, you're more likely to switch to FM and be away from hospital setting altogether. Beside, it's hard to find an open PGY-2 spot anywhere else beside primary care. Unless you're willing to go back into the match again, and redo your intern year <---worst year of your life 🙂

I'll admit that I sometimes feel a bit depressed about my current life and want to be away from medicine altogether 🙂 But everyone told me that's normal during internship (again, hate it! 🙂). All PGY2-4 guarantee that life will be better after June 30th... so, I'm counting the day.

The only concept that I never truly grasp as a student, and that I now see is the amount of days off. I used to think working 18 days, and having 12 days off per month must be freaking great. But those 12 days off are not all truly enjoyable. You actually need it to rest, read, prepare yourself for the next battle.
 
Fable,

One thing you could also consider is finishing your EM residency and doing a Pain and Palliative care fellowship, which just recently became an official EM sub-specialty. That way you'd be board certified in EM and sub-specialty boarded in Pain and Palliative care. That would allow you to create a mix of outpatient work and ED shifts that suits you best. Just a thought. I might have considered this if it was available when I graduated.


Ill try to add more later but any of the fellowships will buy you time outside of the ER. Sports medicine is another option.
 
I'm a first year med student just exploring the options of potential careers and residency.

One question about EM that I haven't found answered directly on student doctor, even in the archives; Is what happens when you do get burnt out? I came to medical school after pursuing a career out of college. Immediately out of college I spent a few years as a Junior Sales Associate for a stock firm in Manhattan, I quickly got "burnt out" and changed jobs, to marketing and sales. It wasn't a huge industry change, just taking my skill set and applying it in new ways.

So, if you pursue a classic EM residency, does one have any options in medicine after burn out? It seems like in the modern day ED, much of what one does is actually primary care, is it possible to practice primary care with an ER certification? OR should one consider a combined residency or fellowship to ensure that he/she has something to fall back on if ER loses its appeal?
 
So, if you pursue a classic EM residency, does one have any options in medicine after burn out? It seems like in the modern day ED, much of what one does is actually primary care, is it possible to practice primary care with an ER certification? OR should one consider a combined residency or fellowship to ensure that he/she has something to fall back on if ER loses its appeal?

While not specifically addressing your question of "what to do after burn-out," this thread deals with burn-out (and whether or not it exists).
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=639276

Additionally, I would suggest you check this: http://www.nonclinicaljobs.com/
It was posted in the FM forums by an admin and has some interesting shtuff if you're getting tired of taking care of sick people in the ED.
 
This is an excellent point and IMHO reflects a major problem with EM recruitment and medical student perceptions of EM.

EM is too sexy, in some respects it is a case of lipstick on a pig.
.


I'm beginning to believe I may have been the only medical student to have lived since the advent of EM as a specialty that hated every minute of my rotations, never had any desire whatsoever to go into the specialty, and found it incredibly boring.

Sexy? What about scheduled night shifts, scheduled holidays, scheduled weekends, god awful patients, working up "chest pain" when the a-hole knows that lone magic phrase gets him some sweet pain meds and a comfy bed for a while, etc...is sexy is what I wanna know. 🙂
 
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I'm beginning to believe I may have been the only medical student to have lived since the advent of EM as a specialty that hated every minute of my rotations, never had any desire whatsoever to go into the specialty, and found it incredibly boring.

Sexy? What about scheduled night shifts, scheduled holidays, scheduled weekends, god awful patients, working up "chest pain" when the a-hole knows that lone magic work gets him some sweet pain meds and a comfy bed for a while, etc...is sexy is what I wanna know. 🙂

Different strokes for different folks. I am a few years out of residency and dont have any regrets. No other field of medicine appeals to me as much and while there are things about other fields I admire I love the pay/hour and my time off. Sure nights, weekends and holidays sucks BUT its all way worth it.
 
Different strokes for different folks. I am a few years out of residency and dont have any regrets. No other field of medicine appeals to me as much and while there are things about other fields I admire I love the pay/hour and my time off. Sure nights, weekends and holidays sucks BUT its all way worth it.

Very glad to hear it, and I hope no offense was taken as none was intended by my comments.

I was just struck by the sentiment of the poster I quoted. I was continually (and still am) amazed with the fervor which many med students approach EM. Several people I've known right from the start of med school were enamored with the specialty for all the reasons mentioned above (mostly shifts).

I just keep thinking I must be missing something because I felt like I found plenty of options that allowed a pretty good lifestyle.

And yes, different strokes...cause a lot of people would think what I like doing is nuts. Of course, i mostly like everything. Except inane inpatient cases.
 
I'm beginning to believe I may have been the only medical student to have lived since the advent of EM as a specialty that hated every minute of my rotations, never had any desire whatsoever to go into the specialty, and found it incredibly boring.

Sexy? What about scheduled night shifts, scheduled holidays, scheduled weekends, god awful patients, working up "chest pain" when the a-hole knows that lone magic phrase gets him some sweet pain meds and a comfy bed for a while, etc...is sexy is what I wanna know. 🙂

Really? You can't think of anything about EM that people could find 'sexy'?

We get to intervene in a very real, life saving way. Intubating someone who is crashing, placing chest tubes, relieving tamponade, doing a bedside sono and catching a AAA, managing the septic pt in that golden hour... Many specialties get to improve people's quality of life, or offer a definitive treatment, or improve someone's life expectancy, but very few get to honest-to-god save lives on any consistent basis.

That's the sexy part. There are other pros and many, MANY cons. For many people the cons way outweigh the pros, and that's fine. You don't have to like something to realize why other people do.
 
Really? You can't think of anything about EM that people could find 'sexy'?

We get to intervene in a very real, life saving way. Intubating someone who is crashing, placing chest tubes, relieving tamponade, doing a bedside sono and catching a AAA, managing the septic pt in that golden hour... Many specialties get to improve people's quality of life, or offer a definitive treatment, or improve someone's life expectancy, but very few get to honest-to-god save lives on any consistent basis.

.

I can honestly say that after countless hours spent in various ED's, I never once did, or even saw any of those things take place. It was all toothaches, CP, N/V/D, back pain, etc. Not a single 'saved life' that would have otherwise not been ok. Granted, I never went Trauma I or anything, but I had no desire to either. And the sexy things I hear about mostly are the "sweet hours", "no rounding", etc.

I could definitely see the merits of trauma surgery, but wouldn't want those hours.


again, glad there are people that like working the ED. Very glad.
 
MJD,

What field are you in?

My view is different strokes, different folks. You are telling me you never saw an ER doc save a life in the countless hours you spent in the ED? Never saw a bad copder get tubed, Bring back someone using CPR etc? Really? If so I dont know what type of ER you spent your time in.
 
MJD,

What field are you in?

My view is different strokes, different folks. You are telling me you never saw an ER doc save a life in the countless hours you spent in the ED? Never saw a bad copder get tubed, Bring back someone using CPR etc? Really? If so I dont know what type of ER you spent your time in.

FP, I'm guessing.
 
MJD,

What field are you in?

My view is different strokes, different folks. You are telling me you never saw an ER doc save a life in the countless hours you spent in the ED? Never saw a bad copder get tubed, Bring back someone using CPR etc? Really? If so I dont know what type of ER you spent your time in.

I had one last week that came in agonal breathing, severe cyanosis, pH of 6.8 and a lactate of 12 who walked out of the hospital yesterday. Gotta say, it felt pretty good. That kind of story's a bit uncommon, but I'd say we help a fair number of people. 😀
 
After looking at his posts, he's an intern at a community FM program with 1 fresh month of residency under his belt. Definitely possessing unparalleled perspicacity into the field of emergency medicine. "Countless hours spent in various EDs" indeed...
 
After looking at his posts, he's an intern at a community FM program with 1 fresh month of residency under his belt. Definitely possessing unparalleled perspicacity into the field of emergency medicine. "Countless hours spent in various EDs" indeed...

But counting is hard.
 
I dont want to start bashing the guy. I truly believe one of the great aspects of medicine is that with so many fields there is a different field for just about any personality.

I think with experience you learn to respect the other fields and if happy with your choice realize why you didnt do one of the others.

I am ecstatic to be an EM doc and would be much less happy doing FP, Surg, Derm, Rads, Ortho etc.

Thats not a knock on those fields but rather me understanding what would make me happy and choosing that field.
 
MJD,

What field are you in?

My view is different strokes, different folks. You are telling me you never saw an ER doc save a life in the countless hours you spent in the ED? Never saw a bad copder get tubed, Bring back someone using CPR etc? Really? If so I dont know what type of ER you spent your time in.



Again, i agree different strokes. And again no, I never once saw anything I would consider remotely exciting in the ED. Most of the stuff, I wouldn't even consider "emergent".

How many hours? Probably somewhere around 200-300 in the course of my rotations. I thought it was enough to determine that it wasn't for me, especially considering I hated scheduled nights, scheduled weekends, and really, really, really don't like shift work.

To be honest, my initial exposure was so brutal that I never sought anything at a Level 1 and likely never will.

I may incorrectly assume that most of the real action at Trauma Centers goes to the Trauma Surgeons, but I didn't want that lifestyle either, so I never pursued it.

I am doing an FM residency that is unopposed where I can get lots of exposure to various things I will be able to use whether I go on to do Rural full scope medicine or work in an Outpatient only type setting. I felt it would be best for me. I don't see myself ever being one of the guys that goes out and tries to work in the ED in a community hospital, though that seems very popular.

I do have access to both a community and an urban hospital as well as a well known children's hospital, where I will rotate through the ED.

I appreciate your professionalism, and I honestly wish my EM rotations would have been better. It may have given me a different perspective of the field.
 
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