Rejected, and not sure how to proceed from here.

[Shiriyama]

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I made a topic before on a different subject, but that one got no replies. Let's see if this one fares better.

This was my first round of applying to doctoral programs in clinical psychology. I only applied to three programs--insane, I know, but I'm quite poor, and didn't have the time to go through the process of getting fee waivers due to my wonderful undergrad institution throwing requirements at me at the last second that made my final semester packed to the rafters in terms of time commitments. Getting my letters of recommendation, my personal statement, and all of that were time consuming enough. Not to mention that even with application fee waivers, sending out GRE score reports and my transcripts is still prohibitively expensive for me.

Moving on, I applied to:
Adelphi University, PhD. Rejected sans interview. Unsurprising, I have no research experience, but felt I ought to try.
Long Island University, CW Post PsyD. Also rejected sans interview. Surprising, considering...
Rutgers University, PsyD- Interviewed 2/27

When I went to the interview, I found that I unwittingly made it to the interview stage of one of the best PsyD programs out there. Lucky me. No joking there, I was quite happy to be there. But the more I spoke to people, the more I was...anxious, I guess. At 23, I was the youngest person there, right out of my BA while everyone else either had their Master's or had been working with serious mental illness for years. Most of them had some form of publications.

In comparison, my specs as of now:
- Bachelor of the Arts, Stony Brook University, 3.61 GPA, 3.7 or so psych GPA. Note, transferred to SBU from Brooklyn College, where they had NO research opportunities
- 1390 general GRE. 760 Verbal, 630 Quantitative. ...I suck at math. >_>
- 730 Psych GRE. I was aiming for 750ish, but I'm not complaining.
- Two years working as a psychiatry research assistant. Said study was a four site wide double blinded drug trial, so as an undergrad, all I did was the menial stuff. However, there are just about no opportunities for doing one's own research at Stony Brook for what I want to do, and I know that goodness of fit between one's desires, experiences, and programs is. The best I got from this was sueprvising severely behaviorally disordered children (comorbid ADHD and ODD/CD), watching the CBT Parent Management Training sessions, and two letters of recommendation, one from the CBT therapist and the other from the psychiatrist.
- To drive the above point home in a shorter way: I've never run any research or published/presented a thing. Pushing for this at SBU didn't yield results.

...so overall, compared to the others at interview day, I didn't seem to have a whole lot going for me. Those without research had at the least worked as counselors in some fashion. I actually kind of wonder why Rutgers was interested. Interview day itself was a mix of good and bad. I feel they hosed me in the personal interviews: as someone right out of their BA, I can only have so much experience. Basically all I have is my RA experience and theoretical foundations, as far as I see it. And I do have very strong foundations...in psychodynamic therapy. I was interviewed by a CBT therapist and a family systems therapist. I feel this didn't explore my talents in the right way at all, but there's nothing I can do about that. I did great during a group interview and showed what I knew from a dynamic perspective there. And at the end of the day when everyone was told they could go, I was told I couldn't because someone requested to speak with me; a third year grad student who was heavily into dynamic therapy. I impressed him and the admission's coordinator by being able to comparatively hold my own in a conversation on dynamic theory with him as well as being extremely personable. I had them laughing a bunch.

Needless to say, I'm not very surprised that I was rejected. I seemed like the underdog from the inception. The personal interviews didn't tap my strongest quality. And the great talk with the grad student was unofficial and thus had questionable bearing (if any) on my chances. I've also heard that at such high levels, getting an offer is often a crap shoot.

The thrust of all this is that I'm curious and somewhat anxious as to how to proceed from here (hi, topic title). I want to improve my application for future rounds, but have no idea how to begin doing so. I need to begin working immediately: I have bills to pay, student debt repayments creeping up on me, and no support to meet these obligations. The few research oriented positions I've found are more RA positions that won't help much. One position is a two year commitment that precludes me from doing research on the side by sheer merit of being full time, and experienced gained there will have no goodness of fit and questionable bearing anyways. I literally cannot afford to simply volunteer my time on a study in hopes of presenting/publishing in some fashion and praying I get hired on. I need stability quite soon. Searching in New York, any position I've seen that entails working with mental illness in any fashion useful to me requires a Master's Degree. Obviously I feel hemmed in and at a loss for what to do to improve my chances next time. I'm willing to bet a lot of my assumptions here aren't right and there are means to find stability and worthwhile experience...but I haven't the slightest idea where to look. Thus I come here asking for advice.

I realize, of course, that I was rejected from a very good program. It shouldn't bother me. And for the most part, it doesn't, apart from being hosed on the interviews-- didn't feel like a fair fight. I can obviously apply to other programs next round. But honestly speaking, the goodness of fit I found at Rutgers is perfect; despite the interviews not tapping my potential, I learned a great deal about the environment from unofficial talks with faculty and the grad students. The fact that they're funded better than most PsyDs is also alluring. They're a top choice for me, and considering I was interviewed, I'd like to try again...I just want to make my next attempt worthwhile.

Long post. I have a habit of doing that. So, for those of you who stuck around, any advice for this lost kid? I really, really don't relish the idea of applying to any program again, as the process is annoying and stressful...but I've known that I want to be a therapist since before I went to college, and spent a long time researching the way I felt was best to get there. So I'm willing to hunker down and do it again. But without an idea of where to start, I'm feeling disheartened and anxious.

 

[Ettevi05]

I just wanted to say that your credentials look really strong as an applicant, the only thing that might have hurt you was the lack of research experience (GRE, GPA, clinical experience, are great) and that you didn't apply to more schools. I know how it feels to not have any money during the whole application process. I went through something similar too my last semester where all my financial aid was reduced to nothing, and I was eating one campbell soup a day because I was using all of my part-time job check in applications, transcripts, GRE scores, GRE tests, envelopes, stamps, etc. It sucks scraping by and not getting into a place you'd like. I am sure if you would have applied to less competitive schools than the ones listed, you would have gotten in with no problem, so next time you decide to apply try to apply more generously and broadly. If you only would like to do therapy, have you heard/looked into any MA Licensing programs? To be a therapist you don't need to necessarily get into a PhD or PsyD program...there are also many MA programs that you can get the licensing (and I believe some licensing Master programs have application deadlines due in April or May). You can do that, and after getting your license re-think PhD if you'd like to do research.
If you don't want to apply to a Master's program, you will have to get research experience somehow, and that will be either paid or as a volunteer. I don't think there is much way around that. Getting research will make your application well-rounded for doctoral programs. You will have great GPA, GRE, Clinical Experience, AND research experience. I was able to volunteer in the medical school at my hometown where there is a neuroscience lab for psychiatric disorders. I also was able to go to my local university and e-mail a few professors there if I could join their lab as a volunteer. Again, it's all volunteer. If you're looking for a job, you can definitely see if there are any openings in your area for Psychiatric Aides, or any clerical or administrative positions that pay well at universities where you live.

 

[Shiriyama]

psycscientist:

To spare another huge post:
- I actually have very good knowledge of CBT and FST, it's just that both completely pale in comparison to my knowledge of dynamics. My main gripe is that every single other person I talked to, be it interviewee or doctoral student, mentioned they had gotten interviews with someone who matched their modality when they made it clear what it was. The fact that I know dynamic therapy well and want to forward research in empirically verifying its concepts was central to my personal statement. For example, someone who was interested in DBT got an interview with the sole faculty member who has experience in DBT. When a full 40% of the faculty is dynamic, another 40% is CBT, and 20% is FST, it's...kinda odd. Every single person found it odd that I didn't get an interview with someone who matched, considering their entire model of interviewing is to give one interview that matches and one that doesn't. I got none. Easily happenstance, but it really doesn't feel like a fair shake. I did cede it's an assumption, but it's not entirely unfounded.

- In terms of RA positions, I'm not dismissing their possibilities as a whole. It's just that I haven't found a single position that fits your criteria of "good." Every single position I've looked at and applied for is entirely grunt work and has no chance for presentation or publication, just like my previous position. Thus me thinking I'm looking in the wrong places. I've looked at hospitals all across NYC and haven't even found so much as volunteer positions for any sorts of psychiatric/psychological research. Of the two positions that even bothered to interview me, only one is likely, and that one told me there will be absolutely no chance of presentation, publication, or even networking. Its only grace is that it's a position as a clinical interviewer, but I honestly don't know how useful that will be, especially since I won't be participating in the research part of it.

Ettevi:

I dunno, I feel somewhat lacking. My GPA could've been better, although I did have to take the zero-ing of my GPA inherent in transferring. My Quantitative score was just shy of terrible, considering it's in the...44th percentile. I'm content with my subject score, but wouldn't mind improving it. I also realize that these are only so important compared to the interviews themselves and my research experience. My experience in research was only in a supervisory role; while I was dealing with human subjects with mental disorders, all I was doing was making sure they didn't act out. It annoys me that SBU had literally no opportunities for publishable/presentable research at an undergrad level.

In terms of the money circumstances...I respect what you did, but I would never, ever do that. Not for a lack of passion, but the fact that it's even necessary is plain wrong. If pursuit of a dream makes it such that one can't even meet their basic humans needs, there is something very wrong with that picture (in this case, societal stuff). Problem here is that my RAship was paid, but had to let me go when I graduated. Jobs be sparse.

I know about the licensed Master's. To be honest, I'm not interested in the MHC degree. I learned plenty about it from one of my letter writers: a professor I had for a year, had a good relationship with, and went on to become the chair of the MHC program at my previous college. I honestly don't like how she described it. I'm interested in primarily PsyDs because I want the quality of clinical training I would get from a good PsyD program.

Job-wise, there does seem to be no way around that, and that's the main impetus for my anxiety. I absolutely need a way of meeting my financial responsibilities. Any full time job is going to make volunteering, which I wouldn't mind doing so long as I have some form of income, nigh impossible. The only option that even seems viable is to find and overnight job and volunteer during the day. But hell, to give an example of how much I don't know how to navigate the field: I don't even know where to begin casting about for volunteering. Any tips for that? My naivete in regards to getting around the field of psychology outside of college is limiting me, and I'm having a hard time trying to find this stuff out on my own. My only thoughts are to look at med schools/hospitals in the area and see if they have studies or psychiatric centers where they might need volunteers, but when I looked into that I couldn't even find where to contact people.

So much for a short post.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I know you're upset, but you seem to have had a really great outcome considering how few programs you applied to. Your GRE score is fine. You probably lack two things, in comparison to other applicants: Clinical experience and research experience. Honestly, I am quite sure you were in direct competition with applicants with master's degrees and years of clinical experience in therapy, plus good chunks of research experience. Many of us here have had to volunteer significant amounts of time in research labs just to be in the running for a doctoral program--and, yes, that means working in other jobs and going to volunteer on the side, doing grunt work and then eventually doing our own projects (often spending extra money of our own to complete said projects).

Also, I don't see what is wrong with a masters degree if you want to be a therapist. Anyone in their right mind would tell you that masters-level training is plenty if you only want to do therapy. Doctoral training is for assessment/testing, supervision, teaching, and research.

 

[Ettevi05]

Job-wise, there does seem to be no way around that, and that's the main impetus for my anxiety. I absolutely need a way of meeting my financial responsibilities. Any full time job is going to make volunteering, which I wouldn't mind doing so long as I have some form of income, nigh impossible. The only option that even seems viable is to find and overnight job and volunteer during the day. But hell, to give an example of how much I don't know how to navigate the field: I don't even know where to begin casting about for volunteering. Any tips for that? My naivete in regards to getting around the field of psychology outside of college is limiting me, and I'm having a hard time trying to find this stuff out on my own. My only thoughts are to look at med schools/hospitals in the area and see if they have studies or psychiatric centers where they might need volunteers, but when I looked into that I couldn't even find where to contact people.

Look at universities near your area, check out their websites, their psychological or human sciences department will have a set of faculty as well as their research interests listed below. This is your opportunity to get their e-mail from the page and e-mail them your circumstances. There are some RA positions that are for pay and there is a thread of current ones being updated for this year, if you can't relocate and need money, look in the Staff postings at the local universities or community colleges where you can find paid RA positions and other clerical/staff positions which are typically well paid. You can look at Hospices, hospitals, anything where you imagine a psychologist working at. Sometimes they offer psychology aide positions there, or admission counselors where you're only required to have a BA.

 

[Shiriyama]

Psychadelic2012:

Upset isn't quite the right word. When I was told that people would be getting their acceptance notices at around 3/6 by my student host, and I hadn't been told anything by that following Monday, I was reasonably sure I wasn't getting in. Especially considering within that week I'd seen that people here had wait list positions and I was still in the dark. It annoyed me for a bit, but I squared with rejection well before I was even informed. In all honesty, I'm slightly disappointed-- I was straight up against people with Master's and lots of serious mental illness work, so I felt out of my depth throughout the entire interview process...not in a sense of "I don't know what I'm doing," but in the sense of "How in hell am I being interviewed here when everyone else is so much more experienced?" I did spend months refining my personal statement with someone who is excellent at making them amazingly strong, so I wonder if that had something to do with it. I was able to shelve that feeling of being dwarfed during my interviews if only because I'm confident in my abilities and don't think that my credentials on paper are indicative of my potential and skills. In the end, I was happy to be there; annoyed at what didn't seem like a good interviewing strategy on their part; and disappointed because I unwittingly touched the stars but didn't make it. On the flipside of that last feeling, it did boost my confidence to know I was interviewed there, and that I honestly think it wasn't a fluke. If I got there once because of my hard work, I can get there again. But with better credentials; it'd be silly to not do so.

In terms of the Master's? I honestly do want to teach. I'd also like to be involved in research, but not heavily. Kinda why Rutgers seems so nice: you can focus on clinical heavily, but you can also do research. I have some ideas I'd love to refine with a good mentor and test out. But the real catch, I guess, is that my professor didn't paint a bright picture of the Master's. She mentioned specifically that it cuts off certain patient groups (the ones with more serious mental illnesses) and messes with pay. I don't know if this is still the truth, so lemme ask: what are the benefits and drawbacks to the MHC Master's? Is what my professor told me true? And being honest...I could've made it into one of the best PsyD programs there is. A Master's feels like a waste of potential!

Ettevi:

I looked up that thread. I'd seen it before. Looking through it was a replay of "Oh hey, that sounds wonderful...argh, too far away." Relocation is expensive, and, as far as my common sense tells me, requires a decent financial buffer in order to survive until I'd start getting paid...given my financial straits and my lack of any parental support, I don't think I could pull that off. The willingness is there. I don't think the means are.

So let me play "Ask the adult" (since I'm still so young): is relocating for a job with the average pay of those research positions, given my age, financial circumstances, and the fact that I've never lived on my own, at all practically feasible or wise? I have a feeling my living in New York my whole life has my perceptions on feasibility in other places skewed, but I don't think it's a bad idea to side on caution in this case.

In terms of advice on where to look, thanks. Guess I was a bit shy about e-mailing people out of the blue and asking about this kind of stuff, but it doesn't look like there's much choice.

Thanks guys. Any other advice from anyone is still welcome.

 

[snowcherries]

Shiriyama,

There are lots of places where you will be able to support yourself well with a full-time RA salary--NYC may or may not be one of them, but there are plenty of East Coast cities with major hospitals and research institutions where it's very doable. I know a ton of people who do it in Boston and just live slightly outside of town. I'd strongly recommend it, as I took a year off for research/clinical work after graduation and I'm very happy that I did so. I had the time to apply to lots of schools, go on lots of interviews, and I know that my post-grad experiences strongly supported my candidacy at many schools.

Also, you probably know this, but schools in the NY area are extra competitive due to location and there's a large element of unpredictability in doctoral admissions due to small cohort sizes (ie it's really hard to tell where you will and won't get it). Applying to only 3 schools in the NY area was very risky, so don't beat yourself up over not getting in.

 

[Shiriyama]

Shiriyama,

There are lots of places where you will be able to support yourself well with a full-time RA salary--NYC may or may not be one of them, but there are plenty of East Coast cities with major hospitals and research institutions where it's very doable. I know a ton of people who do it in Boston and just live slightly outside of town. I'd strongly recommend it, as I took a year off for research/clinical work after graduation and I'm very happy that I did so. I had the time to apply to lots of schools, go on lots of interviews, and I know that my post-grad experiences strongly supported my candidacy at many schools.

Also, you probably know this, but schools in the NY area are extra competitive due to location and there's a large element of unpredictability in doctoral admissions due to small cohort sizes (ie it's really hard to tell where you will and won't get it). Applying to only 3 schools in the NY area was very risky, so don't beat yourself up over not getting in.

And to reply once me before I sleep...

Good to know about the feasibility. My main worries: making mistakes due to being a newbie, and the fact that as it stands I don't have any money to relocate with. Still think it's possible, honestly? I'll have to look into how to make that work apart from the jump into a new state, if that jump is possible.

And yep, I knew NY schools were competitive. Tons of people. Small cohort sizes. I didn't play probability well at all. I just couldn't, which sucks, haha. I'm really not beating myself up. I took a giant risk and still got interviewed at a great school. I take heart in that. My negative emotions from this are based mainly on worry about my naivete on how to progress in the interim (ie RA positions). Plenty of people don't make it in at first. I join an esteemed club now that it's happened to me. I just wanna know best how to make my next spin of the roulette wheel one with better chances, and was (and still am) anxious about how to go about that.

Although I'm STILL not looking forward to getting letters of recommendation and writing a personal statement again. Ugh.

 

[psychRA]

I think you need to let go of this notion that you were "hosed" during interviews.

I agree. Interviewing with a faculty member whose theoretical orientation is different from yours doesn't automatically kill your chances of acceptance, nor is it that unusual. I met with plenty of psychodynamic/humanistic/family systems faculty members for grad school interviews as well as internship interviews. I wouldn't assume that that's what prevented you from getting in.

Will you be applying more broadly next year? That would be my biggest piece of advice - NYC is a geographically desirable area, and you're going to be up against a lot of stiff competition.

 

[Ettevi05]

Ettevi:

I looked up that thread. I'd seen it before. Looking through it was a replay of "Oh hey, that sounds wonderful...argh, too far away." Relocation is expensive, and, as far as my common sense tells me, requires a decent financial buffer in order to survive until I'd start getting paid...given my financial straits and my lack of any parental support, I don't think I could pull that off. The willingness is there. I don't think the means are.

So let me play "Ask the adult" (since I'm still so young): is relocating for a job with the average pay of those research positions, given my age, financial circumstances, and the fact that I've never lived on my own, at all practically feasible or wise? I have a feeling my living in New York my whole life has my perceptions on feasibility in other places skewed, but I don't think it's a bad idea to side on caution in this case.

In terms of advice on where to look, thanks. Guess I was a bit shy about e-mailing people out of the blue and asking about this kind of stuff, but it doesn't look like there's much choice.

Don't feel uncomfortable with e-mailing profs, they are people in the academic world, and trust me, they won't feel uncomfortable for you e-mailing them out of the blue, and you shouldn't feel weird since you are not the first sending such inquiries/questions.

As for relocating, it's up to you. In December I actually had an interview for an RA position in Harvard Medical School, I am happy I didn't get it though because I probably wouldn't have had money to move to Boston at that time and I really wasn't sure how much they were paying (I also had applied to programs but I kinda thought this would be a great back up plan if I didn't get into one). You can also go to usajobs.gov, I believe that an RA assistant has an average income of 25-30k, depending where you're going. Most contracts are for two years at least, but the experience will be very worth it for graduate school.

If you're having trouble gathering the resources to relocate, I say you should look into possibly getting into another RA paid lab in your former university. Look at the staff listings, check frequently, since they seem to change every couple of days, and see if there are any positions you can apply. Also look at the current city job listings, sometimes they want people to do supervision roles or program development that have a BA in psychology and a bit of experience (my best friend will be applying to a training development position for the local electric company and the starting salary is around 60k). This would be a great way to move out without going too far away and learning to be on your own.

PS. By the way, don't think being young is a limitation in relocating, I think it's actually ideal because you have no serious commitments (no kids, wife) and you can freely move around. I am still 21 and I am guessing you're around that age too since you graduated from college this past semester, so I can relate to the struggle (especially not have parental/financial support). Hang in there though, you seem to have it together and I am sure you won't have any trouble finding a job soon. 👍

 

[Shiriyama]

PsychRA:
Honestly speaking, I wouldn't be on about it had I not seen such a unanimous air of surprise from everyone I mentioned it to when there. Every student and every interviewee got one interview to match their modality and one that didn't. I made specific note of that. As I said, it's just a suspicion. I can't prove it, but I am entitled to it.

Ettevi:

Actually, I'm 23, haha. My main reason for thinking youth would be a limitation to relocating is because of simple lack of experience, and living on one's own being something you generally don't wanna mess up. 25-30k is plenty, so that's not the issue as far as I see it. Getting the resources is indeed the issue; my initial reaction to looking for work in my old university is distaste. Stony Brook was never quite good for jobs in that area, and even when I had my PI and study coordinator look into RA jobs in the university a good few times, there was nothing of use to me. The only position that made any sense demanded a Master's and was in a lab with a jerk for a PI. RA jobs there are generally student RA gigs where the pay is low, which would make the commute to SBU expensive enough to negate the financial usefulness of the job. But, initial reaction put aside, I'll look. I just don't expect much! =P

Looking for city jobs has been harsh. Looking with a bunch of resources, there have been no supervision roles that even interviewed me--and I'm talking supervision for roles that entail working with kids 6-12, which is exactly what I have experience in. New York is VERY rough when it comes to the job market. If I can ask, what kinda experience would a position like the one your friend is applying to want? It'd be useful to know what they're looking for in these multifaceted positions that are outside of academia.

 

[Phipps]

Why haven't you applied to GW's Psy.D. program, given the fact that you are interested in psychodynamics?? Just wondering. I know $$ is an issue for you but still...

 

[Ettevi05]

PsychRA:
Honestly speaking, I wouldn't be on about it had I not seen such a unanimous air of surprise from everyone I mentioned it to when there. Every student and every interviewee got one interview to match their modality and one that didn't. I made specific note of that. As I said, it's just a suspicion. I can't prove it, but I am entitled to it.

Ettevi:

Actually, I'm 23, haha. My main reason for thinking youth would be a limitation to relocating is because of simple lack of experience, and living on one's own being something you generally don't wanna mess up. 25-30k is plenty, so that's not the issue as far as I see it. Getting the resources is indeed the issue; my initial reaction to looking for work in my old university is distaste. Stony Brook was never quite good for jobs in that area, and even when I had my PI and study coordinator look into RA jobs in the university a good few times, there was nothing of use to me. The only position that made any sense demanded a Master's and was in a lab with a jerk for a PI. RA jobs there are generally student RA gigs where the pay is low, which would make the commute to SBU expensive enough to negate the financial usefulness of the job. But, initial reaction put aside, I'll look. I just don't expect much! =P

Looking for city jobs has been harsh. Looking with a bunch of resources, there have been no supervision roles that even interviewed me--and I'm talking supervision for roles that entail working with kids 6-12, which is exactly what I have experience in. New York is VERY rough when it comes to the job market. If I can ask, what kinda experience would a position like the one your friend is applying to want? It'd be useful to know what they're looking for in these multifaceted positions that are outside of academia.

EDUCATION AND/OR SPECIAL TRAINING:

1. Bachelor’s Degree from an accredited college or university in Business Administration, Education, Psychology or related field; or an equivalent combination of related training, education, and experience.
2. Related certifications in training, or human resource professional organizations preferred i.e. CPLP, PHR, SPHR, etc

EXPERIENCE AND MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS:

1. Minimum of three to five years experience in training and development or management consultant capacity, experience in a human resources generalist role also beneficial.
2. Knowledge of effective instructional techniques, needs assessment methods, research and evaluation techniques, statistical methods, and data collection techniques.
3. Ability to operate personal computer and software applications, develop training programs, conduct formal and informal training courses, assist in training administration, and prepare reports.
4. Ability to communicate effectively, both orally and in writing; good presentation skills.
5. Ability to establish and maintain good working relationships with officers, managers, supervisors, fellow employees, outside consultants and the public.
6. Ability to maintain a strong sense of propriety concerning confidential matters.


Just a little FYI she's from Carnegie Melon and besides her dual degree in Psy and International Business, she had to take extensive coursework in programming, calculus, and other oriented classes on research in human training using systems and robotics. So this job really works for her.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I think you need to let go of this notion that you were "hosed" during interviews. Your limited experience worked against you, yes, but I don't see this as particularly unfair.

Agreed- focusing on being "hosed" is not productive. Maybe the quality of your stats/cover letter/recs. got you the interview, despite your admitted lack of experience. Those things may have got you notice by an admission committee and got you in the door, but perhaps the lack of experience meant that you weren't a top priority come time to schedule the specific interviews. The most productive way to look at this is that the problem was with you and you need to now do something about it. Nothing bad was done to you- you applied to only three programs, despite relative lack of experience were given the opportunity to interview a competitive program, and lost out to more attractive applicant. Now's the time to make yourself one of those more attractive applicants.

As much as it may suck, you're going to have to make some sacrifice somewhere. You have loans to repay and want to live in one of the most competitive and expensive markets in the country (world?), but you don't want to volunteer/work for peanuts, are wary of cold-calling profs, wary of finding an entry level RA job, etc. Sorry (seriously, I am), but it's just the way it is. It's competitive, cutthroat, difficult, and potentially expensive. It's also likely to get worse as you progress through your training, but in the end it really can be worth. You really need to have the attitude that the other applicants had better interview schedules than you because the DESERVED to, rather than something unfair was done to you. Now go out and make some sacrifice so that you will be one of those applicants next time around.

Now, as to 23 being too young to move out on your own- it's not. It can be lonely, complicated, confusing, etc, but it is also one of the potentially coolest, funnest, freeing transitions you'll ever make in your life. You'll figure it out eventually. It's also what you'll have to do if you get into grad school, so best to work out the kinks before you start that other craziness.

I'm not really trying to sound harsh. You're in a difficult phase- it's one of the first points in your life where you have to face the reality of needing to make major sacrifices in pursuit of a goal. That is, however, what you have to.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

In terms of the Master's? I honestly do want to teach. I'd also like to be involved in research, but not heavily. Kinda why Rutgers seems so nice: you can focus on clinical heavily, but you can also do research. I have some ideas I'd love to refine with a good mentor and test out.

You can do teach and do some research with a masters degree.

But the real catch, I guess, is that my professor didn't paint a bright picture of the Master's. She mentioned specifically that it cuts off certain patient groups (the ones with more serious mental illnesses) and messes with pay. I don't know if this is still the truth, so lemme ask: what are the benefits and drawbacks to the MHC Master's? Is what my professor told me true? And being honest...I could've made it into one of the best PsyD programs there is. A Master's feels like a waste of potential!

All of this is also untrue...or, rather, a skewed view of reality. If you've only talked to one person about a masters degree, you haven't asked enough people. You seem like so many people I've met who say they are pursuing a PhD/PsyD "because I want that 'Dr.' in front of my name" (or PhD after my name, etc., etc.). Prestige (i.e., potential) is the wrong reason to pursue a doctorate, and committees will see through it every time. The reason it is wrong is because it reflects a basic misunderstanding of what being a psychologist is.

I would suggest searching the master's forum about the benefits of a MHC (or counseling psych, etc.) masters. I would also recommend that you take the advice of other posters here by taking your heart in your hands and pushing forward to achieve your goals. Stop expecting your dreams to be handed to you and work so that you can be competitive with everyone else.

 

[phillips101]

psycscientist:

ed.

- In terms of RA positions, I'm not dismissing their possibilities as a whole. It's just that I haven't found a single position that fits your criteria of "good." Every single position I've looked at and applied for is entirely grunt work and has no chance for presentation or publication, just like my previous position.
So much for a short post.

Here's a question for you:
Would you pick a random person at a respectable college, give him half your savings, and tell him to go invest it in something worthwhile and pray that he comes back with some profit?

Probably not.
Likewise, labs won't let you touch their precious data without making you "work for it" and showing some competence in basic boring tasks before they give you the big guns.

Here's another question- are you going to put someone without a driver's license into a race car and hope they'll end up in first place?
You get my point...

 

[PsychPhDHopeful]

Hi Shiriyama! I am from the area as well. I totally know how difficult it is to find a research position in the area...Stony Brook has absolutely nothing.I was lucky enough to find a position in NYC but it does require me to commute 3-4 hours a day. Not fun at all.

What you can do is look for jobs at agencies like DDI, YAI, Pederson Krag on Long Island which will give you some clinical experience and in your spare time volunteer at an SBU lab. I had emailed professors there before about the availability of jobs and most replied that they did not have funding for an additional paying position but they would be happy to have me as a volunteer.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have a defeatist attitude. This can all be easily done. If you don't have enough time to work 35 hours at one of the agencies I mentioned and volunteer at a lab 15-20 hours a week, you should reconsider your interest in a doctoral program.

I am interested in how you got your strong foundation in psychodynamic therapy. SBU is very oriented in behavioral and it didn't sound like your research experience had any psychodynamic basis. Just curious...

 

[FemmeFeline]

- Two years working as a psychiatry research assistant. Said study was a four site wide double blinded drug trial, so as an undergrad, all I did was the menial stuff. However, there are just about no opportunities for doing one's own research at Stony Brook for what I want to do, and I know that goodness of fit between one's desires, experiences, and programs is. The best I got from this was sueprvising severely behaviorally disordered children (comorbid ADHD and ODD/CD), watching the CBT Parent Management Training sessions, and two letters of recommendation, one from the CBT therapist and the other from the psychiatrist.
- To drive the above point home in a shorter way: I've never run any research or published/presented a thing. Pushing for this at SBU didn't yield results.

...so overall, compared to the others at interview day, I didn't seem to have a whole lot going for me. Those without research had at the least worked as counselors in some fashion. I actually kind of wonder why Rutgers was interested. Interview day itself was a mix of good and bad. I feel they hosed me in the personal interviews: as someone right out of their BA, I can only have so much experience. Basically all I have is my RA experience and theoretical foundations, as far as I see it. And I do have very strong foundations...in psychodynamic therapy. I was interviewed by a CBT therapist and a family systems therapist. I feel this didn't explore my talents in the right way at all, but there's nothing I can do about that. I did great during a group interview and showed what I knew from a dynamic perspective there. And at the end of the day when everyone was told they could go, I was told I couldn't because someone requested to speak with me; a third year grad student who was heavily into dynamic therapy. I impressed him and the admission's coordinator by being able to comparatively hold my own in a conversation on dynamic theory with him as well as being extremely personable. I had them laughing a bunch.

Needless to say, I'm not very surprised that I was rejected. I seemed like the underdog from the inception. The personal interviews didn't tap my strongest quality.

I agree with PsychPhDHopeful's comment about your defeatist attitude. You seem to frame a lot of your experience or lack of experience as a result of limited opportunities, and approach it from the perspective that, because of extraneous circumstances beyond your control, you are the candidate you are.

Others have already suggested you re-frame your approach to your career, and enable yourself greater agency in this regard. I agree. But what I wanted to add was that, even if you do feel you've been handed a poor lot in life, or are anxious about how you compare to other applicants --- be VERY mindful about whether this influences how you present yourself to programs when applying and interviewing. Even if you truly believe you are at a disadvantage, DO NOT EVER share anything that would indicate this belief.

To any person in a position to evaluate you, it sounds like you are making excuses for why you are not a good candidate. No one is interested in hearing about why you aren't able to be a good candidate...they want to hear why you ARE a good candidate. Focus on your strengths, focus on what makes you unique, focus on how, in an environment without many research opportunities, you took initiative to seek out those opportunities you could. You took advantage of work in a research lab in a unique area, and you look forward to to gain exposure to other areas of research, which is what attracted you to University X's emphasis in X. Embrace your experience in an off-beat area as an ASSET --- it makes you unique! You will add to their program!

Frame your life and your experiences positively, and you will not only feel more successful, you will BE more successful.

 

[Shiriyama]

Hum. A lot of people echoing the same commentary here, so I'll take care of those first:

- It isn't that I'm not willing to work; am wary of RA positions; don't want to work for peanuts; or a general lack of desire. I want to work as an RA or literally anything. I'm willing to put in all the time and hard work necessary. I'm perfectly willing to work for my old RA salary during undergrad (6000/year), if that's what it takes, so long as after a few years I'd have some potential for publishing or presenting. So long as I have some means of meeting my financial responsibilities, and after some time I can do something that will bolster my qualifications, any work in the field would be great. I'm not finding those. Every position I've interviewed for thus far has made specific note that I will never have opportunities to publish/present at these places. It isn't as if I want to be handed that responsibility right out of the gate. I'm being told that it's a responsibility they'll never give me no matter how long I work there and that the beginning and end of these positions is grunt work.

For example, I'm decently likely to land a position as a clinical interviewer for a study on the genetics of alcoholism. The person interviewing me told me early on in the interview that there will be no publishing or presenting, and if that's my aim, I ought to look elsewhere. Not exactly promising. I'm willing to take this and keep looking for better positions, though.
- On the other side, I'm also willing to work inside or outside of the field while volunteering; if I can't find a position that ties both together, I'll take two separate positions so both bases are covered. To that end, I have applied at DDI, YAI, and other places. So far all those applications were rejected; but I'm periodically checking every place out again to see if there are new positions. I'm applying outside of the field as well. No dice there either. But in both cases, I know that if I want something, I have to keep trying til something pans out.
- In terms of willingness to put in long hours: my old RA position required being there 3+ days a week regardless of school or holidays for two years; three hour commute each way. I had no problem with this. I went to work sick. I missed all of...two days at that position, and those two days were when I was hospitalized. I'm perfectly willing to bust my ass. I did it for years. =P
- In regards to my negative outlook...well, yes. I felt, and still feel to an extent, hemmed in from every direction due to all these apparent catch 22s. The lack of any good results in the job hunt, be it an RA position or random job + volunteering, has me feeling kinda stymied. Not knowing where to look doesn't help. But that's why I made this topic; I knew my feelings were based on things that were probably untrue or solvable (I just didn't know where to approach solving it from). As it is, I'm feeling a good bit better about this and am redoubling my efforts thanks to the advice here.

On specifics:
- My dynamic background comes from my first college, Brooklyn College. Matthew Erdelyi, a professor with a lot of experience with dynamics, mentored me. I read what he said I should, and I took it further as well because it was highly interesting. I applied what I learned in my abnormal psychology courses, counseling courses, and therapy courses. Once I transferred to SBU, I continued it on my own. A strong foundation in a therapeutic modality isn't something that necessitates a research position in it.
- To feline in specific: you're right on a good few counts. I've always been a loner in college, and that limited networking opportunities that could've helped a lot. I was also content with my RA position, which wasn't a good idea. But you can't get blood out of a rock. There were no opportunities for publishing/presenting. I'm looking to spend some time improving the areas in my experience that need it.
- Pscyhadelic2012: I sincerely don't care about having a Dr. in front of my name. If that were the case I'd probably take it to the extreme and hate on PsyDs for their relative lack of prestige compared to PhDs. The way I'd heard it, doctorates offer more flexibility and mobility within the field. My guiding desire here has been to become a therapist because I want to help people (and don't care how cliche that sounds); education is a means to that end, in a way. I also love the field of psychology and want to add to it. To that end, I want my training to be good.

But it does sound as if the teaching and research one can do with a MA would be limited, comparatively. I'll look around.

Summary:

My game plan right now is to look for work...more, since I've been looking since before I graduated. Preferably in the field, but if it isn't, c'est la vie. I'll volunteer if there are no RA positions where I can eventually work towards publishing/presenting. But I need to find paying work before volunteering. In the meantime, I'm going to look into every avenue. The licensed master's are something to look into. SBU has a one year master's program that has research components, so that's an interesting avenue too. Now that I have better ideas of where to look, I'm definitely going to be more proactive.

I got where I did because of my hard work. I got complacent and didn't do more when I could and should have during my undergrad, but even that amount of work was valued. It sets a goal (but I will be smart about it and apply to a broader range, I'm just gonna work toward Rutgers as a bench mark because that'll motivate me to get as much as I can). I'll do better and try again. I might look defeatist here, but I don't give up easily at all. Knowing where to look, I can make this work.

So thanks, all.

 

[funkyrat]

If it makes you feel any better, I also interviewed at Rutgers on 2/27 and didn't get in. I was waitlisted via email and because my attempts to find out my status on the waiting list were seemingly ignored, I was in the dark with my hopes up until calling them recently. I'm also 23 with a B.A. in psychology from a reputable school, a lot of full-time clinical experience (for being 23), and limited research experience. Being rejected, It's hard not to second guess every little thing I did interview day but I try not to dwell on it by seeing it as a blessing in disguise and remembering that 470-some people apply and only 50 people get interviews anyway...