Relation of high school stats to performance in college

[deleted760180]

I have but a simple question to ask.

I go to a school where my stats (SAT & GPA) are not in the upper quartile (i.e. 75th percentile) for that school. Does this mean I will have a time attaining a medical school worthy GPA (3.7+)?

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[eteshoe]

Not really. What I mean to say is if you realize that you aren't doing so hot in high school and take active steps to remediate the problem (picking the right major, going to office hrs, utilizing your institute's tutoring center, actively reading/studying/note-taking, etc) once you start college, it's not impossible to do very well.

 

[deleted760180]

@eteshoe Sorry, let me clarify. I am a rising college freshman and my stats from high school aren't in that "upper quartile" I previously mentioned. While I realize its not impossible to do very well (albeit premed being difficult by default), will it be extremely difficult?

 

[efle]

1) It depends a lot on the score range and student body in question I imagine. At a school that really emphasizes scores the 25th-75th ACT range might be ~32-34, which is a pretty negligible span of 98-99th percentile. Everyone is basically on even footing there. At a school with a much bigger range, say a state program with range 22-31, now you're looking at a pretty significant difference between people at the 60th and 97th percentiles if they're competing.

2) Test scores and grades predict well for populations (the overall top quartile will pretty certainly outperform the overall bottom quartile) but not nearly as strongly per individual. Work ethic and how easily you can handle science coursework are going to be much bigger determinants than your SAT Verbal/Writing or non-science grades from high school! Wouldn't let it shake your confidence.

 

[eteshoe]

@eteshoe Sorry, let me clarify. I am a rising college freshman and my stats from high school aren't in that "upper quartile" I previously mentioned. While I realize its not impossible to do very well (albeit premed being difficult by default), will it be extremely difficult?

It will come down to a few things:
1. how serious are you about performing well
2. the difficulty of your UG major
3. how balanced your schedule is

I'll give you an example: I scored in the highest percentile on the college entrance exams, yet still found college to be a difficult adjustment because points #2 and #3 (I picked a hard double major combo at a tough school and didn't balance my schedule well) - yet I quickly recovered and finished strong. Alternatively, I had friends who didn't do so hot in high school (75th-80th percentile), but put forth a significant amount of effort and ended up doing better than I did GPA-wise at the end of college. To them, they said the first semester or so was quite difficult but they were resolved to do much better than they had done in high school and eventually it paid off since quite a few of these friends ended up getting into good grad programs and med schools.

So simply put - it may be difficult, but be honest w/ yourself: getting into med school is a difficult road and if you want to do it, you're gonna have to get comfortable with the fact that some things will be very difficult. However, with the proper plan of attach - these challenges aren't insurmountable.

 

[deleted760180]

Alright, very helpful replies here, thank you @eteshoe and @efle. Getting into med school in and of itself is inherently difficult of course. Looks like the competition really makes all the difference. I have a very respectable work ethic, and will certainly bust my ass no matter what because I really want to get into medical school. A 3.8+ is my goal.

Going to add more specifics though:

-I will be going to Boston College in the fall. The 25th-75th percentile range for the SAT is from a 1950(25th)-2150(75th). That 1950-2150 range is the middle 50. I scored a 2080. I graduated high school with a 3.8 unweighted GPA and a 4.02 weighted GPA

-I will be majoring in Biochemistry with a minor in Spanish.


My schedule for the fall is as follows:

-General Chem I

-Molecules & Cells (freshman year bio course, every premed must take it. The only way out is a 5 in AP Bio)

-Spanish Conversation, Composition & Reading I (part of my minor)

-Calculus I

-Intro to Psych as a Natural Science

I have no choice but to take 5 subjects--is this normal at most schools? The college demands the I earn 15 credits per semester, and this schedule right here is 17. Not sure if it is balanced in difficulty.

I took the AP "versions" of all of these though, so I'm confident I will do fine. I got a 5 in AP English Lang so I could forego a freshman writing seminar. I'm not using any other AP credits, especially for the sciences and math.

However, given the nature of the transition from high school to college, I am not sure how this first semester will play out. Does your advice still stand given what I provided? Other people on another website said that, due to my scores and GPA, I'll "have a hard enough time emerging from BC with a med school worthy GPA". I was planning on transferring to Brown since it was my dream school essentially, and thats how that response I just reference came about.

 

[efle]

I will be going to Boston College in the fall. The 25th-75th percentile range for the SAT is from a 1950(25th)-2150(75th).

Great school! I remember thinking the architecture was beautiful on my visit. They have a student body percentile range of ~95th-99th looking at their ACTs this year, so they're like the first college I described. The raw score differences in that upper tail mean very little in terms of actual percentile span. Even the people coming it at 25th percentile are on pretty much even footing with the 75th percentile in terms of academic readiness. I wouldn't treat your score like a portent at all. I was average stats for my school coming in and found it manageable to get a very competitive GPA in a STEM major, though you really have to put a lot of work into it.

Biochem is generally regarded as one of the more challenging majors, so if you're finding it overwhelming, trying another subject (especially a soft science like Psych or a humanity major) would be a good first move before giving up on premed.

I have no choice but to take 5 subjects--is this normal at most schools?

Yes, 15 credits per semester / 120 over four years is typical. However, people usually try to keep only two to three BCPM prereqs in each semester to make things easier, which it looks like you're already doing. Chem I, Calc I and Bio I + two soft science/humanity is a very normal freshman schedule.

I'll "have a hard enough time emerging from BC with a med school worthy GPA". I was planning on transferring to Brown since it was my dream school essentially, and thats how that response I just reference came about.

Well, I won't sugar coat it. Attrition happens, a lot. I had about 1000 people coming in as premed in my class, and only about a third actually make it to application. It is hard. But, like I said I wouldn't consider your scores vs the school range to indicate anything at all - scoring a couple percentile higher or lower simply does not predict if an individual will survive the prereqs or not.

From what I've heard over the years, transferring into Ivies is notoriously difficult, expensive (nowhere near the aid levels as freshman admissions), and biased towards admitting transfers mostly from other Ivy schools. Brown would likely be a considerably easier experience since they have rampant grade inflation (like a 3.7 median, it's insanity) but you shouldn't make plans to try and swap unless you find yourself miserable at BC and have the financial means to do so if accepted.

I can relate on that point, by the way, Brown was my dream school and I didn't get in. The heartbreak wears off quickly as you fall in love with your new campus.

 

[eteshoe]

Alright, very helpful replies here, thank you @eteshoe and @efle. Getting into med school in and of itself is inherently difficult of course. Looks like the competition really makes all the difference. I have a very respectable work ethic, and will certainly bust my ass no matter what because I really want to get into medical school. A 3.8+ is my goal.

@efle made some great points so I won't add too much. First I think that GPA goal is quite reasonable so that's good.

-I will be going to Boston College in the fall...
-I will be majoring in Biochemistry with a minor in Spanish.

So biochem was one of my major back in college and as @efle mentioned it can be a tough major but it is a good major for med school prep (IMO + you can take some pretty cool classes)

My schedule for the fall is as follows:
.
.
I have no choice but to take 5 subjects--is this normal at most schools? The college demands the I earn 15 credits per semester, and this schedule right here is 17. Not sure if it is balanced in difficulty.

I took the AP "versions" of all of these though, so I'm confident I will do fine. I got a 5 in AP English Lang so I could forego a freshman writing seminar. I'm not using any other AP credits, especially for the sciences and math.

The schedule looks good and it's a plus if you've already taken the AP versions of the classes. I'll advise that you use this semester to start developing good study habits when you're not struggling too much to get familiar w/ the course material. Definitely use your institute's resources and go to office hrs. Also 4 classes (typically 16 credits) is a typical UG workload so 17 credits shouldn't be too difficult to handle - just make sure you stay focused and disciplined. You can definitely spread your pre-reqs over your semesters to ensure your workload isn't too heavy. But remember to take a break once in a while - burn out can be quite devastating if you don't manage your time well or overwork yourself.

However, given the nature of the transition from high school to college, I am not sure how this first semester will play out. Does your advice still stand given what I provided? Other people on another website said that, due to my scores and GPA, I'll "have a hard enough time emerging from BC with a med school worthy GPA". I was planning on transferring to Brown since it was my dream school essentially, and thats how that response I just reference came about.

The advice should still be good. @efle covered some of the difficulties w/ transferring into ivies so make sure you're up for dealing with that headache. I personally don't advice transferring colleges unless you'd gain some particularly unique opportunities out of it. At Boston you'd have access to awesome college experiences and great research opportunities since the city is a huge bio-med/tech hub (though does winters will suck lol). Anyhow you seem like you have a solid plan in place - good luck!

 

[deleted760180]

@efle Thanks for sharing your experiences and advice! I'm glad that my high school performance isn't that big of a factor in regards to future performance. I knew it was a bit ridiculous to assume so, but I only asked because some ***** thought I'd have a harder time than usual getting a good GPA for med school based on my stats. Whatever.

And yes BC is beautiful! Thats part of the reason why I picked it over my other choices, it has a very traditional and clean campus! I'm very excited about going, but at the same time, am still a bit bummed about Brown. I was absolutely devastated when I didn't get in--didnt know what the hell I should do. I'm mostly over it, but the thought still lingers in my head. I will probably forget about transferring since it is such a huge pain, and I simply won't have time to set aside for essays, sending scores, the whole shebang. I'd rather focus on getting a high GPA. Not to mention that they are the only ivy that is need aware for transfers, which really pisses me off. I have high financial need (almost $60k) so the fact that they only set aside $400k is a deal breaker. What a crapshoot.

I'm definitely not going to be miserable at BC (at least, I hope not), its all about the fact that I can do better, and need better. What do you think about transferring to Tufts? I didn't get into Tufts either, and for the most part, I'm not that bummed about it...but at the same time it offers more opportunities.

I'm glad my experience was relatable to yours; rejection hurts. A lot. Especially from an amazing school like Brown. I remember I got rejected from 2 other schools that day, so that really sucked for me.

May I ask where you went (or are going) to school?

I have heard Biochemistry is more on the difficult side, but I chose to do so because I found majoring in Biology to be generic and a bit silly. Medical schools have tons of Bio majors applying--why not mix it up a little bit with some Chemistry? Trying not to be basic here. And I never knew 5 courses was the norm. Usually if you say you're taking 5 APs in 1 year at high school, you would be nuts.

So I have another question for you. People say that you should have a backup plan or "Plan B" in case you don't get into medical school. I am thinking my major, as it stands, will not land me any high paying jobs by itself. The only other feasible major that would be a suitable plan B would be a major in Business Management/Accouting or something like that, but that would require me to do an internal transfer from one school in BC to another. I am currently in the school or Arts and Sciences, and in the scenario I just described, I would have to do an internal transfer to the School of Management, which is damn near impossible. So what other major might be worthwhile for me in case I do not get into medical school?

@eteshoe Thanks; its really useful when someone who has "been there, done that" so to speak is giving helpful advice. And yeah, looking at the requirements for the major at my school, I found that it certainly fulfills all the prereqs, so I'm pumped for it. Breaks are necessary, and I am willing to do what it takes to bust my ass and really get that high GPA. Boston is also great, but the fact that the college is somewhat outside of Boston by a half hour or so makes it a bit of a pain. Providence (when talking about Brown) isn't as great of a city as Boston certainly, but the college offers internal opportunities which makes up for its subpar location I suppose. May I ask where you went to college as well?

Thank you both for your wonderful replies. It's words like yours that really sets me up for success this coming semester.

 

[efle]

Thanks for sharing your experiences and advice! I'm glad that my high school performance isn't that big of a factor in regards to future performance. I knew it was a bit ridiculous to assume so, but I only asked because some ***** thought I'd have a harder time than usual getting a good GPA for med school based on my stats. Whatever.

Correct attitude. I was from a public high school and had test scores that were average for the school, its a good thing I didn't frequent these kinds of forums back then because I'd have convinced myself I was doomed. Ended up enjoying the academics enough to sign on for a second major and graduated PBK. It's ridiculous to say only the top quartile of incoming students can expect to achieve good grades.

I'm very excited about going, but at the same time, am still a bit bummed about Brown. I was absolutely devastated when I didn't get in--didnt know what the hell I should do. I'm mostly over it, but the thought still lingers in my head.

I'm glad my experience was relatable to yours; rejection hurts. A lot. Especially from an amazing school like Brown. I remember I got rejected from 2 other schools that day, so that really sucked for me.

May I ask where you went (or are going) to school?

I was very upset too, I got the email while in class with a peer who had also applied. She got in, I didn't. I was upset and jealous to the point that I couldn't even say congratulations to her, I'm ashamed to say. I had spent a summer there in a science program which I thought was good demonstrated interest, my alumni interviewer said she thought I was a great fit and was giving me high recommendation, stats matched their class composition, etc - couldn't figure out what I'd done wrong. Still couldn't tell you anything I'd do differently.

I ended up matriculating to WashU (in St. Louis), runners up were Vanderbilt and Berkeley. The girl I was dating in high school ended up coming here too, and we were together throughout, which made freshman year a lot more bearable (the homesickness and finding your social circles tend to be rough on almost everyone). The 2nd major I mentioned above was a program unique to this school I fell in love with. Life has a funny way of working out, in hindsight I think I ended up happier and more successful here than I would have anywhere else, though the school was not a top choice for me until the day I visited.

I have heard Biochemistry is more on the difficult side, but I chose to do so because I found majoring in Biology to be generic and a bit silly. Medical schools have tons of Bio majors applying--why not mix it up a little bit with some Chemistry? Trying not to be basic here. And I never knew 5 courses was the norm. Usually if you say you're taking 5 APs in 1 year at high school, you would be nuts.

Biochem is also a common major among premeds, and medical admissions cares very, very little about your area of study. You should choose your major(s) based on what you like studying (and are good enough at for competitive grades) and the job prospects it gives for a potential gap year / backup option, not what admissions sees commonly.

College is just totally different. Classes in the prereqs are usually huge and impersonal, lecture often optional to attend, they meet only every other day and often the homework/reading is only for your benefit, with the grades based entirely on exams or essays. I've had semesters where I'm in 15 credits / 5 classes and that's less than 20 hours in class per week and only 10 hours that I had to attend (Chem and Ochem for example put recordings of lectures online which I could watch if I was struggling with the problem set). Many people work part-time, play time consuming sports or have other extracurriculars on top of 15 credits and do fine.

So I have another question for you. People say that you should have a backup plan or "Plan B" in case you don't get into medical school. I am thinking my major, as it stands, will not land me any high paying jobs by itself. The only other feasible major that would be a suitable plan B would be a major in Business Management/Accouting or something like that, but that would require me to do an internal transfer from one school in BC to another. I am currently in the school or Arts and Sciences, and in the scenario I just described, I would have to do an internal transfer to the School of Management, which is damn near impossible. So what other major might be worthwhile for me in case I do not get into medical school?

Depends what you want as your backup - if med school isn't a likely option, do you want to go right in to the workforce and make big bucks like an engineer, computer science major or consultant can? Would you want to try starting a business yourself instead of working for a big corporation? Would you consider going for a PhD in sciences instead? These aren't really questions you need to ask right now, either. If BC is like most colleges, you don't have to declare a major until ~4th semester. Take the prereqs and gen ed classes plus a sprinkling of what interests you that you'll never get to study again (philosophy was my choice) and then assess your options after seeing the kind of grades you earn. Trying some research-for-credits (or pay), especially in a full time summer research program, will help you figure things out a lot, since working in science is nothing like you'd think before experiencing it.

What do you think about transferring to Tufts? I didn't get into Tufts either, and for the most part, I'm not that bummed about it...but at the same time it offers more opportunities.

Everything I've heard about transferring from people who did it is that it sucks. Expensive, time consuming, and you're coming in knowing nobody while almost everyone has found their friend groups during the freshman year you missed. What opportunities are you afraid of missing out on? Tufts doesn't afford much over BC if you're thinking of prestige, especially in MD admissions.

 

[eteshoe]

@efle ....@eteshoe Thanks; its really useful when someone who has "been there, done that" so to speak is giving helpful advice. And yeah, looking at the requirements for the major at my school, I found that it certainly fulfills all the prereqs, so I'm pumped for it. Breaks are necessary, and I am willing to do what it takes to bust my ass and really get that high GPA. Boston is also great, but the fact that the college is somewhat outside of Boston by a half hour or so makes it a bit of a pain. Providence (when talking about Brown) isn't as great of a city as Boston certainly, but the college offers internal opportunities which makes up for its subpar location I suppose. May I ask where you went to college as well?

Thank you both for your wonderful replies. It's words like yours that really sets me up for success this coming semester.

So I originally wasn't interested in medicine coming into college. I wanted to go into a strong engineering program and ended up picking a HYSPM (ended up doubling in chemical engineering/biochemistry). After college I got a pretty good offer and worked up in Chicago for 2 yrs. I too didn't know about these types of forums during HS which fortunately allowed me to naively apply to many top tier programs that I could have psyched myself out of doing. Make sure you try to get involved in the research opportunities around Boston - I have friends who went to BC and did research at Harvard, Tufts, and MIT. Enjoy the city when you can (even if you're not in Boston proper, I'd assume it's not too hard to get up to the city).

 

[confidentandgood]

OP, I never took anything more than honors biology and chemistry in high school (like @eteshoe, I originally had no intention of pursuing the pre-health route) and always scored lowest on the science portions of standardized tests. I have maintained a 3.8+ science GPA for three years now with no problem because of constant study habits and time management. It's more than doable.

I have heard Biochemistry is more on the difficult side, but I chose to do so because I found majoring in Biology to be generic and a bit silly. Medical schools have tons of Bio majors applying--why not mix it up a little bit with some Chemistry? Trying not to be basic here. And I never knew 5 courses was the norm. Usually if you say you're taking 5 APs in 1 year at high school, you would be nuts.

Like others have suggested, major in something that you enjoy but will also do well in. If you are studying biochemistry to stand out to adcoms, remember that it doesn't matter what you major in. A strong cGPA/sGPA (in any major and usually with any courseload) and a great MCAT are what gets your foot in the door.

Classes in the prereqs are usually huge and impersonal, lecture often optional to attend, they meet only every other day and often the homework/reading is only for your benefit, with the grades based entirely on exams or essays.

Add to this that some professors are just difficult to work with or learn from, so you have to adapt your study style depending on such. I had to teach myself the entirety of Organic I because the professor lectured on history during class and then tested us on small details from the textbook.

 

[Do.No.Harm.501]

I graduated with several people who had higher GPAs in college than they did in HS. It's all about applying yourself and setting goals. Also don't underestimate the power of studying in small groups and going to office hours .


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[Gilakend]

My freshman college GPA was over double my freshmen high school GPA. As long as you have the drive you'll do great. I also held a lab assistant position (400+ hours) coming off a lackluster high school performance, people understand if you didn't do so hot in high school, college is a clean slate academically.


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