Removed from rotation due to interviews

[wongb18c]

So I need some opinion and thoughts on this, basically I was removed from my Dec rotation because I missed the entire first week of my elective rotation in Dec due to several interviews lined up that were all distant out of state. As a result I have to make it up and might not even graduate on time or start res if I do match. My school allows only 2 days excused abscence in one calendar month, even for interviews, which I wasn't aware of.

Just wanted some opinion on this, did I deserve what I got, or do you think the admin should be somewhat forgiving since it's a bit unfair considering the interviews are what potentially determines your residency and future career?

I'm fully aware that there are date selections, but sometimes you get a late invite notice, sometimes they just fall all together, and for me traveling was easier to plan out if I bunched them together.

Apologize in advance if this is posted in the wrong section.

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[Bacchus]

It is what it is. See if you can make up time over any breaks you have. The policy was established so they won't budge. You'll be setting a precedent if the administration let's you off.

 

[JediZero]

It's really important to know the attendance policies for rotations. We're on didactic week right now, and they just lectured us today on the time we're allowed to miss, and how they'll yank us from rotation if we miss more than 3 days a month. The consequences are unfortunate, but it is your responsibility to be aware of their policies and cooperate with them, so sadly I've got to say they're in the right here.

The strategy that's encouraged for us is to schedule a week of vacation between rotations and hit all your interviews then. Don't know if you've got a lot of travel left to do, but if your school works that way, probably worth a shot.

Good luck! =/

 

[st2205]

Another reason why I'm glad I picked a rotation site that was preceptor-based and don't have to deal with endless levels of bureaucracy. I know they try to prevent abuse but these policies do a disservice to the school itself as much as it does to the student.

 

[wongb18c]

It is what it is. See if you can make up time over any breaks you have. The policy was established so they won't budge. You'll be setting a precedent if the administration let's you off.

I guess you're right. I personally talked to a few classmates and know for a fact there are people missing more than the allowed days, I just happened to get caught. I personally believe taking a whole month away from me for a missed week due to interviews is a bit much, but that's just me.

 

[Bacchus]

This is why you have to ask around and do rotations where the attendings do not care. Don't ever get your school involved if at all possible.

 

[FutureInternist]

So I need some opinion and thoughts on this, basically I was removed from my Dec rotation because I missed the entire first week of my elective rotation in Dec due to several interviews lined up that were all distant out of state. As a result I have to make it up and might not even graduate on time or start res if I do match. My school allows only 2 days excused abscence in one calendar month, even for interviews, which I wasn't aware of.

Just wanted some opinion on this, did I deserve what I got, or do you think the admin should be somewhat forgiving since it's a bit unfair considering the interviews are what potentially determines your residency and future career?

I'm fully aware that there are date selections, but sometimes you get a late invite notice, sometimes they just fall all together, and for me traveling was easier to plan out if I bunched them together.

Apologize in advance if this is posted in the wrong section.

Yes.
If the policy is laid out, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure your absences will not count against you BEFORE you actually take them

 

[deleted307836]

My school allows only 2 days excused abscence in one calendar month, even for interviews, which I wasn't aware of.

Don't schools realize that such policies are incredibly detrimental to fourth year students, and thus, the school as a whole? I don't understand overly restrictive and punitive policies like that during a time where students are preparing for the next step in their careers.

 

[DrWBD]

So I need some opinion and thoughts on this, basically I was removed from my Dec rotation because I missed the entire first week of my elective rotation in Dec due to several interviews lined up that were all distant out of state. As a result I have to make it up and might not even graduate on time or start res if I do match. My school allows only 2 days excused abscence in one calendar month, even for interviews, which I wasn't aware of..

It never ceases to amaze me how osteopathic students potentially grenade their future careers by doing boneheaded things like this.

Knowing the attendance policy for your rotations is your responsibility. At the very least you should have cleared this with the attendings beforehand.

 

[valkener]

As much as it's kind of ignorant to not know the exact policy, I have to just as much scold the school that enforces it with such relentlessness. If they want their students to match at their best places possible, they need to be more gracious. Medical school officials are one of the most self-important people I have ever met.

 

[superfan56]

It never ceases to amaze me how osteopathic students potentially grenade their future careers by doing boneheaded things like this.

Knowing the attendance policy for your rotations is your responsibility. At the very least you should have cleared this with the attendings beforehand.

agree, clear it with your attendings at the very least. or better the people scheduling.

 

[SpecterGT260]

As much as it's kind of ignorant to not know the exact policy, I have to just as much scold the school that enforces it with such relentlessness. If they want their students to match at their best places possible, they need to be more gracious. Medical school officials are one of the most self-important people I have ever met.

But this isn't all that unusual. We (an MD school) get several weeks of "vacation" which need to be taken in at least 2 week increments or else rotations get thrown off. We take most of them for interviews. The OP screwed up here trying to interview during a scheduled clerkship. How one decides to do this is beyond me

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[Mass Effect]

But this isn't all that unusual. We (an MD school) get several weeks of "vacation" which need to be taken in at least 2 week increments or else rotations get thrown off. We take most of them for interviews. The OP screwed up here trying to interview during a scheduled clerkship. How one decides to do this is beyond me

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Not everyone gets several weeks of vacation, though. At my school, you get one month off for fourth year. Whether you spend that on studying for boards or interviews is up to you. You can break it up and use two weeks for boards and two weeks for interviews, but when it comes down to it, you still only have two weeks for interviews. I really don't understand why some schools do this, but they do.

 

[LovelyBRass]

Not everyone gets several weeks of vacation, though. At my school, you get one month off for fourth year. Whether you spend that on studying for boards or interviews is up to you. You can break it up and use two weeks for boards and two weeks for interviews, but when it comes down to it, you still only have two weeks for interviews. I really don't understand why some schools do this, but they do.

...4 weeks?! That's insane. What do they have left to teach you in fourth year lol We get like 10 weeks off or something ridiculous. It's the best. Everyone takes at least 4 weeks for CK and then splits the rest of the time between interviewing and finishing the year super early. I suppose we should advertise this to applicants 😎

Anyway, to the OP... that's BS. You should be allowed excused absences and what-not for this type of thing. They're clearly screwing you over by essentially telling you that an extra day off is worth pushing off graduation and residency. As Biden would say, it's a bunch of mularkey. As for plan of action, *shrug*. But, I'm here in solidarity.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I agree that the policy is total nonsense, but unfortunately the school has the upper hand vs the OP in this situation.

My school also only gives us four total weeks of vacation fourth year...and you must take it before January because it's 'COMLEX prep'. I took it in July, which means that my interviews have mostly been done during clerkships. I'd give anything now to be going to a school that lets students finish up early with more vacation time - that's definitely a feature worth advertising to applicants.

 

[kjamess]

4th yr sounds like the worst at some DO schools

 

[sylvanthus]

Anyway to bypass the school and just work it out with your preceptor?

 

[Bacchus]

4th yr sounds like the worst at some DO schools

Some. I went on 6 interviews and only missed 6 days over the course of 3 months. I was done with my Sub-I in August and my boards early July. I've been on easy street since then. It's awesome.

 

[Slane]

Anyway to bypass the school and just work it out with your preceptor?

Yes, but with some strings attached. If the school finds out, you're effed and will likely face disciplinary action for going behind their backs. All depends on how much you trust the preceptor really.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

How can you bypass the school? Don't they have to know you're on a rotation???

 

[Bacchus]

How can you bypass the school? Don't they have to know you're on a rotation???

Yes, but some schools are a lot more strict than others. Some schools require you to report days off and limit your days off to a handful of days which makes interviewing difficult. I rotated with LECOM students who get 10 days. That's 5 days of travel and 5 interview days. Other schools, such as PCOM, allow you to have up to 4 days off a month.

Bypassing the school = hoping you have an understanding attending who doesn't let the school know or care that you don't let the school know.

 

[FutureInternist]

Yes, but some schools are a lot more strict than others. Some schools require you to report days off and limit your days off to a handful of days which makes interviewing difficult. I rotated with LECOM students who get 10 days. That's 5 days of travel and 5 interview days. Other schools, such as PCOM, allow you to have up to 4 days off a month.

Bypassing the school = hoping you have an understanding attending who doesn't let the school know or care that you don't let the school know.

Or have a gunner going in the same specialty rotate there the next month, find out & then tell on you
VERY VERY risky
One of the few times where apology is NOT easier than permission

 

[peppy]

If it helps any to know that people sympathize with you, I definitely think it's too bad that your school handled things this way. How did your school find out? Did someone complain about you being gone?
Personally, I think that missing a week of a fourth year elective isn't that big of a deal as long as you had told the attending that you were going to be away and received their permission.

If you're the type who wants to be a family medicine doc in North Dakota, then it may not be a big deal to be so limited in what days you can take off for interviews, but if you're trying to get something more competitive like Dermatology or even ACGME general surgery then every interview counts. I think it's very short-sighted and petty of your school to try to micromanage students on fourth year electives.

 

[sylvanthus]

I guess it pays sometimes going to a new school where they dont know or care what you are doing. I could have been in Guam for the past 8 months and noone would have had a clue so long as a grade sheet got filled out once a rotation. I really am on legit rotations fyi but my preceptor/regional dean is very forgiving and understanding of the need for interviews as I am doing 20 total. We work out the hours and days ourselvrs and have plans for "makeup" dates later on.

 

[JGimpel]

Let's get this straight; your school has an attendance policy for the last two years of school and they probably had a policy for the first two years. I find it very hard to believe that you had no idea that one exists. I call shenanigans! There are students that take advantage of whatever policy and look at the max as the jumping off point and make sure that they take those days off by calling in sick, then beg their attending for more time off to study for USMLE/COMLEX or for stress, etc. I'd drop the student's grade a B or lower and leave the narrative portion blank for taking that much time off and that would be that.

Most medical schools, especially DO schools, build in tons of weeks of extra time in their schedule, another inferiority complex thing, so you should be fine in terms of graduation, just don't expect any vacation time until after you graduate. Calling in sick to a person that takes care of sick people for a living is usually a bad idea and you would probably have gotten the days off if you just asked for it or spread them out over a few months rather than all at once. There is a limit to how much time you can get off also because physicians depend on students to help them out, and sometimes, especially in procedure oriented positions, have you take over for an assistant that they send home for the day. You calling in sick messes up a lot of people's lives.

Really bad mistake for your grade and reputation. Good luck in residency interviews, especially if they know you're that B. Wong from SDN.

 

[p30doc]

This is bs. The point of medical school is to ultimately land a residency spot, that should be #1 priority for the school and the student fourth year. 2 extra days on a rotation won't affect your future practice as a physician but going on 2 extra interviews could make the difference in you matching or not. I'm sorry this happened to you. At least once your practicing you can tell them where to go when they come knocking for alumni contributions.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Let's get this straight; your school has an attendance policy for the last two years of school and they probably had a policy for the first two years. I find it very hard to believe that you had no idea that one exists. I call shenanigans! There are students that take advantage of whatever policy and look at the max as the jumping off point and make sure that they take those days off by calling in sick, then beg their attending for more time off to study for USMLE/COMLEX or for stress, etc. I'd drop the student's grade a B or lower and leave the narrative portion blank for taking that much time off and that would be that.

Most medical schools, especially DO schools, build in tons of weeks of extra time in their schedule, another inferiority complex thing, so you should be fine in terms of graduation, just don't expect any vacation time until after you graduate. Calling in sick to a person that takes care of sick people for a living is usually a bad idea and you would probably have gotten the days off if you just asked for it or spread them out over a few months rather than all at once. There is a limit to how much time you can get off also because physicians depend on students to help them out, and sometimes, especially in procedure oriented positions, have you take over for an assistant that they send home for the day. You calling in sick messes up a lot of people's lives.

Really bad mistake for your grade and reputation. Good luck in residency interviews, especially if they know you're that B. Wong from SDN.

Easy to say when you're already a resident. Look, this dude needs to match and his school is making this problematic. Most people I encounter on the trail from MD schools don't have this problem, either because their schools actually build in adequate vacation time for interviews or because they have attendings that actually let the students go interview. It seems like at least some DO schools don't really do this (god knows why). Also, I highly doubt this dude is concerned with his grade in this fourth year rotation...he just needs to not fail.

Lastly, I'm surprised at the backlash here when it comes to people missing days to interview and not telling the school (i.e., just 'working it out' with the attending) - on the trail, this has definitely been one of (if not the) most common ways people get time to interview.

 

[Siggy]

How can you bypass the school? Don't they have to know you're on a rotation???

Not everyone works every day. For my family med rotation (inpatient service), the teams alternate through a 5 day cycle. This puts the off day on different days depending on the team you're on. Another example, my current rotation gave us Christmas Eve and Christmas off (mostly because the 24th was the first day of the rotation) as well as New Years Eve and New Years day (clinic closed, select people have to pop in for OB call). Not every rotation site is giving 4 days off in the first 2 weeks, including the normal 4 week rotations (I'm on a 6 week OB/Gyn rotation).

Similarly, if I get post call off and weekends off, if I trade for a Thursday call shift I can effectively have a 3 day weekend that I could do an interview trip on without burning a day off because I'm not being "excused" from any days... they're normal and expected days off.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Sure, it was his fault for not knowing the attendance policy, but it was also his fault for not clarifying it with the attending on the service.

Believe me. My school had some ******ed policy too. But, I talked it over with the attending for the month(s) as the interviews came knocking, and they all understood and were cool with it. Nobody reported ish to my school and I didn't say anything to them, either.

It really aint all that hard. I promise.

Obviously, it worked out. 😉

 

[FLpk1girl86]

This is why you have to ask around and do rotations where the attendings do not care. Don't ever get your school involved if at all possible.

This. All u can do now is relax and try talking to the school so use vacation time or something to make it up.

 

[kjamess]

I'm just appalled that this is even an issue at some schools, especially when people are doing elective rotations. Feel bad for the DO peeps

 

[PikminOC]

some schools are looking to shorten med school to 3 years..like nyu..

 

[scpod]

Too late to do anything about it now, but for the future there are ways to get around it as someone previously suggested. Our school gave us ten total days off in 4th year for interviews. I interviewed at 13 places in 6 different states. Not doable with ten days. I was able to schedule rotations during that period with attendings I had already rotated with. They were more than happy to give me the time off without "reporting" it to the school. I asked them in advance. You can also schedule a rotation like an ER rotation where you only work 15 or 16 shifts in a month. Many places will work your schedule around interview days and you don't have to tell the school anything if you are going on your days off. I did 16 shifts in 18 days for one rotation and had the rest of the month off. I also was able to work to reschedule some interviews to fit my travel plans. I flew into one place in early am, took a rental car to the interview and drove to a second site for an afternoon interview. Then, drove to a third site, stayed overnight, interviewed the next am and drove back to the airport for an evening flight out. One state and three interviews done in two days. It's all doable with a lot of planning, but you have to know the rules you are working with.

 

[Bacchus]

Too late to do anything about it now, but for the future there are ways to get around it as someone previously suggested. Our school gave us ten total days off in 4th year for interviews. I interviewed at 13 places in 6 different states. Not doable with ten days. I was able to schedule rotations during that period with attendings I had already rotated with. They were more than happy to give me the time off without "reporting" it to the school. I asked them in advance. You can also schedule a rotation like an ER rotation where you only work 15 or 16 shifts in a month. Many places will work your schedule around interview days and you don't have to tell the school anything if you are going on your days off. I did 16 shifts in 18 days for one rotation and had the rest of the month off. I also was able to work to reschedule some interviews to fit my travel plans. I flew into one place in early am, took a rental car to the interview and drove to a second site for an afternoon interview. Then, drove to a third site, stayed overnight, interviewed the next am and drove back to the airport for an evening flight out. One state and three interviews done in two days. It's all doable with a lot of planning, but you have to know the rules you are working with.

^ I rotated one day (because of your school's schedule differing from mine) with a student from your school. He was doing what you said about the ER, but instead was pulling 16 hour days so he could interview at a ton of places. It only required him to rotate for 8 days.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Whether or not the policy is fair or in the best interests of the student really is irrelevant at this point--the policy is what it is, and it's the student's responsibility to find a way to meet his or her needs in a manner that fits the policy. Honestly, I don't really believe that anyone could make it to December of fourth year without knowing the school's absence policy, as I feel like practically every rotation covers that in a lecture on day one; even if somehow you didn't know, I'm sure you can figure out that the number of days you can have off is not infinite, so before scheduling a whole week off during a rotation it only makes sense to FIND OUT what the policy is. Again, whether the policy is fair doesn't really matter, as once the school spells out their policy, you can bet they're going to hold you to it.

There are any number of ways to maximize your days off during a rotation. Some of them are listed above, to find rotations that will be understanding to your needs and take them; as mentioned a nu. Another strategy is to find a month that would let you take your days off during the week and then do weekend shifts, ie EM or maybe ICU if they give 2 days off in 7 for students. But signing up for whatever and then crossing your fingers is just not a good idea.

 

[roast]

sounds like youre at lecom bradenton, good luck, be very nice to Dr F and beg him to let you work something out

 

[JGimpel]

Easy to say when you're already a resident. Look, this dude needs to match and his school is making this problematic. Most people I encounter on the trail from MD schools don't have this problem, either because their schools actually build in adequate vacation time for interviews or because they have attendings that actually let the students go interview. It seems like at least some DO schools don't really do this (god knows why). Also, I highly doubt this dude is concerned with his grade in this fourth year rotation...he just needs to not fail.

Lastly, I'm surprised at the backlash here when it comes to people missing days to interview and not telling the school (i.e., just 'working it out' with the attending) - on the trail, this has definitely been one of (if not the) most common ways people get time to interview.

This guy does NOT have to match, by the way. He can scramble into positions left over after it. Not the best way to go about getting into the specialty area of your choice, but the option is there, even for people that lie. Work things out with your attending, work a dozen 12 to 14 hour days or offer to help with some research in lieu of spending time on service instead.

Lets say that the PD, who will be employing you as an employee, finds out that you lied either directly about or through omission of the true facts surrounding your excessive absences at your previous "employer" while on rotation. They would be less likely to renew your contract, even if hired for the first year. You'd essentially have a categorical spot change to pre-lim spot with a strike or 2 already against you.

This is one of those cases where I can truly say that I went through the same stuff as you will go through and made it work for me without lying to anyone, so please tell me why anyone is that much more special or has any more right to mislead people than the rest of us. Wouldn't you rather have a candid opinion now than in a small box in your termination papers? Support staff also talk a lot and I've asked how a buddy did when he was there a few months prior and some had said, "he seemed nice, but was never here." That stuff follows you and precedes you more than you can imagine. This is probably one of the reasons why there are so many lectures on professionalism in DO school these days. Thanks for that, med student.

 

[Mass Effect]

This guy does NOT have to match, by the way. He can scramble into positions left over after it. Not the best way to go about getting into the specialty area of your choice, but the option is there, even for people that lie

If he's going for something competitive, the scramble option is usually NOT there. Anyway, the above is an absurd response to dozitgetchahi's point.

 

[JGimpel]

If he's going for something competitive, the scramble option is usually NOT there. Anyway, the above is an absurd response to dozitgetchahi's point.

I guess everyone has a right to their opinion. If he didn't want to get in trouble and explain why he had to take time off during a certain year to a program, then he shouldn't have tried to weasel out of going to work when he was supposed to. It likely won't be an issue since his school will probably make him use his vacation time to make up for time lost. If he has none left, or an infraction is recorded on his transcript, he'll likely have to go outside the match and hope that a program will save a spot for him to start at a later date. Competitive programs in competitive specialties usually won't do that.

Please refer to the "Academic History" and Appendices B and C in this oldie but goodie:

https://www.aamc.org/download/139542/data/mspe.pdf

The real issue is that If he remains cavalier about what he does for the rest of his work at his medical school, it can take more severe action against him that will force him out of some competitive residencies. Let him respond and roll the dice for himself. He probably isn't responding since he posted enough personally identifying information on a site that a large number of residents doing the interviewing pass through. Not that I'm saying that I'm involved in the selection process of new Interns or anything, but people doing 2 week core rotations and graduating late usually can only mean a few things happened.

I wish all of you the best of luck and urge you to please be careful about what you do and what you post.