Renaming of Physician Assistants to Physician Associates

[FutureDoc4]

Pharos, some of your comments just don't make any sense.

First, BlueDog is one of the most relaxed and insightful attendings on this site. So, to say they're bitter, clearly means you really don't follow their posts.

Second, YES. I am going to say it. The AVERAGE PA CANNOT MAKE IT THROUGH MEDICAL SCHOOL. Why can I make this assertion?

1) Medical school admissions pick students based on grades and MCAT score--based on their correlation (albeit, not super strong correlation) to making it through medical school and passing USMLE 1-3. The average PA student has an academic GPA average lower than the average medical student (period). Of course, most PAs don't get take the MCAT, but I would infer (since MCAT is knowledge and reasoning based), that a lower GPA correlates to less knowledge and they would likely (on average) score less than the average medical student. FYI, I know you are "proud" of that MCAT score but do realize that the average MCAT acceptance is now above a 30 (pretty sure its 30.8-31).

2) Even with these large academic hurdles medical students make to get into medical school, some still struggle and fail in school. So, to recap, the average medical student with a more intense academic background can often fail in this intense environment. You are insinuating, that with a far LESS intense academic basic science understanding the average PA could thrive? I don't buy that koolaid at all. (and it doesn't make any logical sense).

3) Before you get yourself all excited. We are talking about averages. You learned about averages right? Could the top 10% of the PA class at Duke make it through medical school ? If I was betting man, I would say ABSOLUTELY, but that is the extreme not the average.

4) People do change careers, we have a nurse and PA in my medical school class. Both have fantastic clinical knowledge but have struggled through the basic sciences (previous trainings are NOT equal)

5) I feel like a broken record with this but here it is... and I am going to bold it for you:
You don't realize how much you don't know.

To you it is intuitive that since you passed a PA program you could pass medical school. Your lack of understanding of what you never learned makes it seem "ridiculous" that a PA would struggle to get through medical school. Please be happy with your profession (its a noble one) and stop the "would of /could ofs"

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[Pharos]

Pharos, some of your comments just don't make any sense.

First, BlueDog is one of the most relaxed and insightful attendings on this site. So, to say they're bitter, clearly means you really don't follow their posts.

Second, YES. I am going to say it. The AVERAGE PA CANNOT MAKE IT THROUGH MEDICAL SCHOOL. Why can I make this assertion?

1) Medical school admissions pick students based on grades and MCAT score--based on their correlation (albeit, not super strong correlation) to making it through medical school and passing USMLE 1-3. The average PA student has an academic GPA average lower than the average medical student (period). Of course, most PAs don't get take the MCAT, but I would infer (since MCAT is knowledge and reasoning based), that a lower GPA correlates to less knowledge and they would likely (on average) score less than the average medical student. FYI, I know you are "proud" of that MCAT score but do realize that the average MCAT acceptance is now above a 30 (pretty sure its 30.8-31).

2) Even with these large academic hurdles medical students make to get into medical school, some still struggle and fail in school. So, to recap, the average medical student with a more intense academic background can often fail in this intense environment. You are insinuating, that with a far LESS intense academic basic science understanding the average PA could thrive? I don't buy that koolaid at all. (and it doesn't make any logical sense).

3) Before you get yourself all excited. We are talking about averages. You learned about averages right? Could the top 10% of the PA class at Duke make it through medical school ? If I was betting man, I would say ABSOLUTELY, but that is the extreme not the average.

4) People do change careers, we have a nurse and PA in my medical school class. Both have fantastic clinical knowledge but have struggled through the basic sciences (previous trainings are NOT equal)

5) I feel like a broken record with this but here it is... and I am going to bold it for you:
You don't realize how much you don't know.

To you it is intuitive that since you passed a PA program you could pass medical school. Your lack of understanding of what you never learned makes it seem "ridiculous" that a PA would struggle to get through medical school. Please be happy with your profession (its a noble one) and stop the "would of /could ofs"

OK - but firstly, I am not "proud" of my MCAT in that sense. I was actually responding to a direct question by J1515 who asked what it was - in which I interpreted as an insinuation that I hadn't even taken it or scored too poorly. I don’t go around touting it, and that was the first time that I have mentioned it in any forum conversations in that context. They asked it as a challenge question and I answered the question. I also understand that my score would not have gotten me into an Ivy League school, but it is above average for the average school. I also strongly doubt the MCAT is a reflection of one’s intelligence – only how good they are at taking that type of standardized test (which I know the USMLEs/COMLEX are formatted after).

Secondly, I don't know "anything" yet because I haven't actually attended PA school...sorry if I somehow mislead you otherwise. I am an accepted student, but won’t start for a few more months. So the “You don't realize how much you don't know” comment doesn’t yet pertain to me – and even if it had, I don't understand your "You don't realize how much you don't know" comment. You make it seem like I think a PA's knowledge is somehow equal to that of a physician. I hope it isn't. Of course I wouldn’t already have all the knowledge needed for medical school, my premise is that if you have the academic ability to make it through PA school, you should have the academic ability to make it through med school…not that you would already know it all. My premise was simply in response to someone who stated that the doubted that most PAs could have made it through medical school. Do you really think everyone who has a less than 4.0 GPA has their particular GPA because they couldn't do better? If so, then my argument would make no sense to you. My stance is that many people have less than a 4.0 because they weren’t committed enough or simply didn't care to have high grades (i.e. not that competitive). Yes - I agree they would need a major mindset change, but I do seriously think they would be able to make it through. Of they’d struggle…I think everyone struggles in med school don’t they. Anyway, I think it’s safe to say that I am in your turf on SDN and I shouldn’t have expected the argument to go any other way.

I guess we will need to agree to disagree. I do firmly believe that PA student should be able to make it through medical school (i.e. their failure rate would not be markedly different than pure med students). Quite frankly, if they didn’t have the intelligence and ability to do that…would you even want them operating in a PA capacity? PA schools don’t accept people with bad stats. Both types of school are competitive and take only the brightest. Yes, I agree the brighter (or a least on paper is no argument) go to medical school, but I find in hard to believe that the others could not have if they had wanted it a little more and applied themselves a little more.

Apologies if this is incoherent…was in a hurry.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Well your whole argument boils down to this:

You attribute lower GPA and Standardized tests scores to not working hard. To bad medical school requires both working hard and intellect (sorry but there certainly has to be some baseline level of intellect to survive in medical school, I won't debate with you if the averge PA actually has that intellect).

It's just completely naive to think that when someone did not work hard in undergrad.. .can just magically turn it around in medical school... most of us worked hard in undergrad and still have to work hard in medical school (its a marathon, not a sprint, if someone did not have th "fortitute" to work hard in an arena that requires much LESS work, why do you think they will be able to survive an arena with MORE work?).

Your argument about failure rate is fundamentally flawed (even though you don't want to aknowledge it). Let's briefly move through the logic:

Why do medical schools care about MCAT scores and GPA? Do you think this is just for fun? It's correlated to success (aka surviving) medical school and boards (the lower the GPA and the entering MCAT score the most likely (probability) that you will fail.

This does not take into account individual motivation (which as you say can be a game changer but I would argue in very few people). But, it does say that previous academic achievement predicts future achievement (notice, this says nothing about what type of doctor they will be, just that they will survive school).

You can do a pubmed search and find the studies (to lazy), but if you are going to make claims like you are you need to back them up with evidence (after all medicine relies on EVIDENCE).

Your gut feeling about PAs being able to survive medical school counts for ****... if you are going to make claims, bring me some EVIDENCE.

 

[Rabbit Hole]

Forget about the bragging comment - I can see now that you were responding to earlier posts.

What I meant by "young-Pharos" was you at the fork in the road of PA or MD school. You chose the PA route because that was in your best interest at the time. Maybe you hesitated to pursue the MD route because you had a PA school already lined up, or maybe because of financial reasons, or because of your age... whatever the case, you ultimately rationalized to yourself that PA school was best for you.

"today-Pharos" - with the mentality that you have now, if you were at that fork in the road again - I think you would choose MD school. I think you short-sold your options when you first had the chance and that's what I mean by regret.

Do I think that a PA would be able to get through medical school? Some, yea, with difficulty. I don't think PAs lack the brain power to do so. But the reality is that this theoretical opportunity simply does not exist or is rare to come by. Once you start down on one of these roads of physician, physician assistant, nurse - it's hard to get off that damn road and start back on another one. Also, when you make this sort of argument and say that MD and PA schooling is similar - you're marginalizing both of our professions for the sake of your ego.

You also have to admit that PAs who have applied to medical school before and have not made it in -- they didn't make the cut for a reason - most likely low scores.

No one is saying that PAs are idiots. Your training is not the same as ours (I posted about this wayyy earlier in the thread, I'm tired). Whatever you do - don't get all crazy like the DNPs... I've read the garbage that comes out of their camps and everything is laced with their psycho agenda. I don't recall coming across idiot-based medicine from the PA journals.

I also read somewhere about how they eat their young? It's commonplace for them to sabotage each others to get ahead, don't think they haven't considered using you PAs as a stepping stool as well. "i.e. Hey unassuming PAs, let's do a study on how to run a clinic with just NPs and PAs? How about that guys? Sound good?"

You guys are a good bunch and losing your support would hurt the feelings of many physicians.

By the way my vote still goes for "Physician Sidekick".

 

[Rabbit Hole]

Secondly, I don't know "anything" yet because I haven't actually attended PA school...sorry if I somehow mislead you otherwise. I am an accepted student, but won't start for a few more months.

Dammit I thought I was talking to some old PA school graduate.
God damn you internet! You fooled me yet again!@!!!

 

[FutureDoc4]

Forget about the bragging comment - I can see now that you were responding to earlier posts.

What I meant by "young-Pharos" was you at the fork in the road of PA or MD school. You chose the PA route because that was in your best interest at the time. Maybe you hesitated to pursue the MD route because you had a PA school already lined up, or maybe because of financial reasons, or because of your age... whatever the case, you ultimately rationalized to yourself that PA school was best for you.

"today-Pharos" - with the mentality that you have now, if you were at that fork in the road again - I think you would choose MD school. I think you short-sold your options when you first had the chance and that's what I mean by regret.

Do I think that a PA would be able to get through medical school? Some, yea, with difficulty. I don't think PAs lack the brain power to do so. But the reality is that this theoretical opportunity simply does not exist or is rare to come by. Once you start down on one of these roads of physician, physician assistant, nurse - it's hard to get off that damn road and start back on another one. Also, when you make this sort of argument and say that MD and PA schooling is similar - you're marginalizing both of our professions for the sake of your ego.

You also have to admit that PAs who have applied to medical school before and have not made it in -- they didn't make the cut for a reason - most likely low scores.

No one is saying that PAs are idiots. Your training is not the same as ours (I posted about this wayyy earlier in the thread, I'm tired). Whatever you do - don't get all crazy like the DNPs... I've read the garbage that comes out of their camps and everything is laced with their psycho agenda. I don't recall coming across idiot-based medicine from the PA journals.

I also read somewhere about how they eat their young? It's commonplace for them to sabotage each others to get ahead, don't think they haven't considered using you PAs as a stepping stool as well. "i.e. Hey unassuming PAs, let's do a study on how to run a clinic with just NPs and PAs? How about that guys? Sound good?"

You guys are a good bunch and losing your support would hurt the feelings of many physicians.

By the way my vote still goes for "Physician Sidekick".

Agreed^^^

 

[deleted87716]

By the way my vote still goes for "Physician Sidekick".

How about "Wingman?"

 

[badasshairday]

Honestly guys, both PA students and Med students need to stop this pissing match. Both groups are starting to sound like grade school kids. The med students are sounding arrogant as hell. The PA's students are trying to defend themselves, why wouldn't they when someone questions your intelligence?

I have no doubt that there are a good number of PA students that could have made it through med school, but they didn't choose that route. Everyone has their own reasons. I say this because there are a crap ton of people who go to the Caribbean schools with sub 3.2 GPA's and below 25 on the MCAT. Sure, a lot don't make it, but then again, many in fact do make it. My significant other is in PA school, I have no doubt in my mind that she could have done the med school route in the caribbean like a bunch of slackers that we knew in undergrad....... But she never wanted to be a physician, ever. She has no desire to be in training for many years, she wants to start earning early, have a good lifestyle and be able to have time for the future kids.... argh, i'm going off on a tangent, sorry.


Let us med students and pa students get along, and get back to the regularly scheduled program on DNP bashing.

 

[J1515]

Secondly, I don't know "anything" yet because I haven't actually attended PA school...

You haven't set foot in a PA school or medical school and you are telling residents and attendings how the two curriculums and workload compare? I could've played for the NBA. I chose not to.

 

[AegriSomnia]

Honestly guys, both PA students and Med students need to stop this pissing match. Both groups are starting to sound like grade school kids. The med students are sounding arrogant as hell. The PA's students are trying to defend themselves, why wouldn't they when someone questions your intelligence?

I have no doubt that there are a good number of PA students that could have made it through med school, but they didn't choose that route. Everyone has their own reasons. I say this because there are a crap ton of people who go to the Caribbean schools with sub 3.2 GPA's and below 25 on the MCAT. Sure, a lot don't make it, but then again, many in fact do make it. My significant other is in PA school, I have no doubt in my mind that she could have done the med school route in the caribbean like a bunch of slackers that we knew in undergrad....... But she never wanted to be a physician, ever. She has no desire to be in training for many years, she wants to start earning early, have a good lifestyle and be able to have time for the future kids.... argh, i'm going off on a tangent, sorry.


Let us med students and pa students get along, and get back to the regularly scheduled program on DNP bashing.

 

[Pharos]

Dammit I thought I was talking to some old PA school graduate.
God damn you internet! You fooled me yet again!@!!!

Sorry - didn't see anywhere where I said that. I actually agree with the vast majority of your previous post... I don't think we are that far off the same page. You are correct - it is hard for people to change direction mid-stream. I am satisfied with my decision. Will there be days of regret? Absolutely, but I am also not sure there wouldn't be days of regret if I chose the physician route - they'd just be different.

 

[Pharos]

You haven't set foot in a PA school or medical school and you are telling residents and attendings how the two curriculums and workload compare? I could've played for the NBA. I chose not to.

No I have not. Do you think it takes a rocket scientist to know the basics about it? In either event, I was referring more to the academic ability of such candidates....i.e. a GPA of 3.3-3.5 is not THAT far off from a GPA of 3.5-4.0. I've taken classes with grades in both ranges...very little extra work was needed to reach the 3.5-4.0 range vs the 3.3-3.5 range. The exact curricula of each was irrelevant to my argument - I was referring to the general intellect and academic abilities of each of the respective students.

You don't seem to offer any valid arguments...you only keep reverting to "funny" comments. If you have anything substantial to add, I'd be willing to discuss. I don't think we all need to come to agreement...and I'm certainly not trying to marginalize physician's training or abilities - they are paramount...I'm only trying to say that there are people in this world who did have the intellect and chose not to pursue that route.

 

[Pharos]

Blue Dog - (wanted to quote your last post, but messed it up): Fair enough...I don't see the two as all that different - but obviously it is being interpreted as such. I also apologize for getting a little heated earlier...I didn't care for the tone in some of the posts and let myself get provoked. One of yours happened to be one which I interpreted as hostile, but not really that bad, you were available and I took the brunt of it out on you.

 

[Rabbit Hole]

Honestly guys, both PA students and Med students need to stop this pissing match. Both groups are starting to sound like grade school kids. The med students are sounding arrogant as hell. The PA's students are trying to defend themselves, why wouldn't they when someone questions your intelligence?

Let us med students and pa students get along, and get back to the regularly scheduled program on DNP bashing.

Yes

BTW, I have this Prince gif that I have been dying to use.. just waiting for the right moment.

Blue Dog - (wanted to quote your last post, but messed it up): Fair enough...I don't see the two as all that different - but obviously it is being interpreted as such. I also apologize for getting a little heated earlier...I didn't care for the tone in some of the posts and let myself get provoked. One of yours happened to be one which I interpreted as hostile, but not really that bad, you were available and I took the brunt of it out on you.

Pharos, this was nice and very mature. Internet rage diverted.

Oh, and J1515's "FACEPALM" was warranted. If you read the caption.

 

[Starpower]

You also have to admit that PAs who have applied to medical school before and have not made it in -- they didn't make the cut for a reason - most likely low scores.

WHAT are you talking about? You and FutureDoc4 are showing basically one thing very plainly ... you are MEDICAL STUDENTS with ZERO knowledge of PA education, and have most likely NEVER worked with a PA in your life.

Finish up, get to work, learn about what you're talking about, and then get back to us. Or, if you want to take a shortcut, go educate yourselves on PA education and the PA profession, and then come back and give us some details. As it is, you're simply spouting supposition and rhetoric and are no experts on any facet of these topics.

As I've said before, I have had awesome preceptors (MDs and DOs) who train me hard and well, but YOU are not THEY. Understood?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

PA has stood for Physician Assistant since the dawn of PA programs. There is no overwhelming reason to change it. People who need to know what a PA is do i.e. physicians, nurses, other allied health and those that don't can have it explained. DOs have been explaining their role for a long time too.

 

[Starpower]

PA has stood for Physician Assistant since the dawn of PA programs. There is no overwhelming reason to change it. People who need to know what a PA is do i.e. physicians, nurses, other allied health and those that don't can have it explained. DOs have been explaining their role for a long time too.

Another medical student who knows NOTHING about this topic. Actually, you are WRONG, PAs originally started OUT as PHYSICIAN ASSOCIATES.

Note to anyone who reads these threads ... these are MEDICAL STUDENTS, they are STUDENTS and should NOT be looked at as end-all sources of information.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Another medical student who knows NOTHING about this topic. Actually, you are WRONG, PAs originally started OUT as PHYSICIAN ASSOCIATES.

Note to anyone who reads these threads ... these are MEDICAL STUDENTS, they are STUDENTS and should NOT be looked at as end-all sources of information.

Even if 40+ years ago that was true (if it was show me a source), it has been this way for as long as I can remember. This would likely do nothing other than confuse people. I see no good reason to change it, as it doesn't effect anything other than some hypersensitive people's pride.

 

[Maybeknot]

Another medical student who knows NOTHING about this topic. Actually, you are WRONG, PAs originally started OUT as PHYSICIAN ASSOCIATES.

Note to anyone who reads these threads ... these are MEDICAL STUDENTS, they are STUDENTS and should NOT be looked at as end-all sources of information.

Hey Starpower, what does the 'S' in PA-S stand for?

 

[Starpower]

Even if 40+ years ago that was true (if it was show me a source)

No, YOU show ME the source. Since you were the one to make the statement, you must have a reference right? You wouldn't just say something without knowing it to be true, would you?

I don't have to do YOUR work for you, YOU look it up.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

No, YOU show ME the source. Since you were the one to make the statement, you must have a reference right? You wouldn't just say something without knowing it to be true, would you?

I don't have to do YOUR work for you, YOU look it up.

http://www.pahx.org/steadBio.html "With the support of the Duke faculty and administration, he launched the first formal educational program for physician assistants at Duke University in 1965." Also lambasting as AndEE pointed out is amusing when you are one. Students certainly can add to the discussion.

 

[Rabbit Hole]

Yet ANOTHER example of a "Physician ASSistant" with medical student ENVY. It's so EASY to pick out statements that CONFIRM my theory that ALL physician ASSistants use ANY opportunity to put medical students in their PLACE and point out how WRONG they are. That's MUCH more satisfying than engaging in an actual DISCUSSION.






[Edit: This is what I would sound like if I adopted the same argumentative style of another person on this thread. I was only trying to demonstrate a point. I wasn't trying to be serious. Dang.]

 

[Starpower]

Poor children.

Since you are obviously unable, here ... because I feel sorry for you.

http://www.pahx.org/pdf/American%20Registry%20Exhibit.pdf

My advice? Go back to undergrad and learn how to research and reference. But then, of course, you know EVERYTHING already, don't you.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Poor children.

Since you are obviously unable, here ... because I feel sorry for you.

http://www.pahx.org/pdf/American Registry Exhibit.pdf

My advice? Go back to undergrad and learn how to research and reference. But then, of course, you know EVERYTHING, don't you.

Wonderful you proved your point, however a long time has elapsed and things have change since the 1970s. Long hair for men has come and gone, tie die, Fiats, Richard Nixon and the word physician associate. I find it ridiculous that there is a fixation on wanting to change the name, if you find being an assistant so objectionable get an MD or DO. Physicians assistants are supposed to assist the physician, associate implies a parity which is clearly not true. While physician assistants may be helpful, they are mid-level providers they are not equal to physicians. This is not however, to say that they can't be useful, intelligent and helpful; the truth is that PAs do not have equivalent training as compared to MDs/DOs. At a bare minimum there are 4 years of medical school and 1 of internship prior to licensure although, almost every physician completes a 3-7+ year residency as opposed to 2 years of PA school.

 

[Starpower]

Wonderful you proved your point, however a long time has elapsed and things have change since the 1970s. Long hair for men has come and gone, tie die, Fiats, Richard Nixon and the word physician associate. I find it ridiculous that there is a fixation on wanting to change the name, if you find being an assistant so objectionable get an MD or DO. Physicians assistants are supposed to assist the physician, associate implies a parity which is clearly not true. While physician assistants may be helpful, they are mid-level providers they are not equal to physicians. This is not however, to say that they can't be useful, intelligent and helpful; the truth is that PAs do not have equivalent training as compared to MDs/DOs. At a bare minimum there are 4 years of medical school and 1 of internship prior to licensure although, almost every physician completes a 3-7+ year residency as opposed to 2 years of PA school.

You are fighting the wrong fight. In case you weren't aware, the DNPs are the ones who are trying to steal medicine away from Doctors. PAs (as a whole) are not interested.

No one said the education is the same. Residencies rule. As for the 4 years, there are details about the differences that you're unaware of and I don't feel like going into that debate yet again. But the statements here are so often full of uneducated nonsense ('PAs are people who couldn't make it through med school'), that it's damaging to both sides.

Again, when you all actually work with PAs, get back to us. My last preceptor (Ob/Gyn MD) is all for the name change, and started introducing us as his 'Physician Associate students' after he heard about it. He has precepted PAs for 10 years, and only accepts PA students. He is very PA friendly, obviously.

 

[badasshairday]

Yet ANOTHER example of a "Physician ASSistant"

Inappropriate and unnecessary. Please, let's have a mature discussion.

 

[hithere3387]

Inappropriate and unnecessary. Please, let's have a mature discussion.

zzZZZzzzZzzzz BORING!!!


jk

 

[Maybeknot]

Poor children.

Since you are obviously unable, here ... because I feel sorry for you.

http://www.pahx.org/pdf/American%20Registry%20Exhibit.pdf

My advice? Go back to undergrad and learn how to research and reference. But then, of course, you know EVERYTHING already, don't you.

Before you chide us for not learning how to research and reference.... it's pretty clear from looking at that link that the original term WAS "physician assistant," that there was a movement to standardize the education and as part of that movement, there was an effort to rename PA's to physician associates, which did not gain traction.

Given the ephemeral nature of this titling, I strongly suspect that your past assertion that this movement to rename your profession is not simply, as some have complained, "nostalgia." It would make as much sense (actually, much less sense) as Americans wanting to officially rename the US as "Columbia"

 

[Starpower]

Before you chide us for not learning how to research and reference.... it's pretty clear from looking at that link that the original term WAS "physician assistant," that there was a movement to standardize the education and as part of that movement, there was an effort to rename PA's to physician associates, which did not gain traction.

Given the ephemeral nature of this titling, I strongly suspect that your past assertion that this movement to rename your profession is not simply, as some have complained, "nostalgia." It would make as much sense (actually, much less sense) as Americans wanting to officially rename the US as "Columbia"

http://www.pahx.org/period03.html

Well, so. And there we have it. We have done our homework, and gotten to the grit of it all. And we are all right, for all intents and purposes.

Interestingly enough, Yale graduates Physician Associates:

http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/

I for one am certainly not asserting that it's an issue of nostalgia ... I personally am for the name change because it's simply more dignified and, in all honesty, more accurate. When a provider is practically 100% working fast track (let me know if you don't know what that means), they are much more than an 'assistant'. An assistant directly assists ... it's an inaccurate title.

Again, you are fighting the wrong fight. DNPs will destroy the model of healthcare as it needs to be, and I don't understand why more is not being done to stop them.

 

[Maybeknot]

http://www.pahx.org/period03.html

Well, so. And there we have it. We have done our homework, and gotten to the grit of it all. And we are all right, for all intents and purposes.

Interestingly enough, Yale graduates Physician Associates:

http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/

I for one am certainly not asserting that it's an issue of nostalgia ... I personally am for the name change because it's simply more dignified and, in all honesty, more accurate. When a provider is practically 100% working fast track (let me know if you don't know what that means), they are much more than an 'assistant'. An assistant directly assists ... it's an inaccurate title.

Again, you are fighting the wrong fight. DNPs will destroy the model of healthcare as it needs to be, and I don't understand why more is not being done to stop them.

And DNP's, I'm sure, can quote all the websites by their trade groups that assert that DNP's are "doctors." Your Yale link even states that the field is physician assistant, whatever they might name their degree.

And I question the timing of this "change," for whatever reason, occurring on the heels of the ever weakening position of physicians in health care.

And work in whatever part of the ED you want; PA's work under the supervision, however indirectly, of a licensed physician. That's not an "associate," however much you want it to be.

 

[FutureDoc4]

http://www.pahx.org/period03.html

Well, so. And there we have it. We have done our homework, and gotten to the grit of it all. And we are all right, for all intents and purposes.

Interestingly enough, Yale graduates Physician Associates:

http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/

I for one am certainly not asserting that it's an issue of nostalgia ... I personally am for the name change because it's simply more dignified and, in all honesty, more accurate. When a provider is practically 100% working fast track (let me know if you don't know what that means), they are much more than an 'assistant'. An assistant directly assists ... it's an inaccurate title.

Again, you are fighting the wrong fight. DNPs will destroy the model of healthcare as it needs to be, and I don't understand why more is not being done to stop them.

I'll be honest, I stopped reading your posts way earlier.... they were just to all over the place. Calm yourself.

As of me "not knowing about PA education"... um, well, I go to a medical school with a PA school. We are in the same building. We talk a good amount, I'd say I have a good grasp of what they go through.

I have an idea. Why don't you just start introducing yourself as a physician associate? See what happens. Unfortunately, I think you are going to be in for a rude awakening..... people are still going to give you blank stares or comments such as "thanks doc"

What you are talking about is minutia semantics and the average American has such a poor understanding about the scope/training of each provider, this "change in name" will not bring any more clarity to the situation.


I gotta say, I usually really like all the PAs I know and work with so far. I guess I was bound to meet an exception.

And I will agree, it will be DNPs that will be the fall of healthcare, not the name change of PAs.

 

[Starpower]

And I will agree, it will be DNPs that will be the fall of healthcare, not the name change of PAs.

Another important reason for the name change (and the main impetus behind this recent attempt) is to put up more blockade against DNPs attempting to 'oversee' PAs (and yes, those battles have already happened). PAs work with physicians as their SP ... NOT DNPs.

I couldn't care less what you think about me. You have made so many unsubstantiated claims in this thread, that your words are (mostly) clearly to be counted for naught. When you've experienced the didactic onslaught of PA school (and gee, guess what, I round with med students every day, and no, I wouldn't presume to know everything about their education), then maybe you'll understand what you're talking about. Until then, keep making ridiculous statements such as "PAs being able to survive medical school counts for ****..." in some blind attempt to raise your own self-esteem. You just have no idea what you're saying.

When you can remove yourself from the 'I'm better than you' mentality, you're going to be a much more valuable asset to medicine (and your patients).

 

[Starpower]

And work in whatever part of the ED you want; PA's work under the supervision, however indirectly, of a licensed physician. That's not an "associate," however much you want it to be.

Right now you're looking at this from a certain viewpoint, and I understand that.

 

[bnp07]

Wow, this thread has gotten ugly (unfortunately). I think the bottom line is that you can't make generalizations about either profession either way, it's just too hard.

Personally, I chose PA over MD/DO for reasons other than academic. When I mapped out my life, I was graduating med school at 29-30, and finishing residency at 32-35 years old. Because my home state doesn't have a med school (other than UNE, and rumor on the street is that those kids have a pretty high debt load), I'd be paying out of state or private school tuition, landing me at 300,000+ in debt by the time I finished residency (and that's being conservative). I personally wouldn't want to be starting a family with that sort of debt, but by the time I got that number down to something I felt comfortable working part time with, I'd be in my early 40s. Just a little too late in my book for starting a family. Instead, I will be almost debt free by the time I am 30, and don't have to worry about working full time while my kids are young. I will be very happy making ~80,000 a year, as that is more than twice what both my parents make combined. I also don't need MD/DO at the end of my name to feel validated about my knowledge and role in the health care system.

Although I haven't taken the MCAT, I don't think I'd have any problem getting into and going through medical school. I got better grades than all the now-medical students I know from various undergrad courses, and also tutored many of them for the MCAT. My GPA is only a 3.52, but I also took 16-20 credits each semester, spent 30-40 hours a week being involved in two varsity sports, and had to work part time to support myself through school. Also, everyone I know from my program who has gone on to Med(3 people)/PA(3)/DPT(2) school has said that the difference in difficulty between our undergrad and their respective programs is minimal.

All this goes to say there is way too much variability in the background of applicants of both fields for this to be such a heated argument filled with personal attacks. Every person here knows a PA that could have gone through med school easily, but also knows the person who used PA school as a backup to med school (which PA ADCOMs do their best at to sniff out and reject). Even look at how much debate there is about the quality of medical schools/students between MD/DO/Caribbean. Additionally, there is too much variability in GPAs to have that factored into the argument, as I think everyone here will agree that GPA is not necessarily a solid indicator of intelligence, and that the best doctors/clinicians aren't aren't always the ones who got 3.8+s in undergrad. A greater percentage of PA students come from nontraditional backgrounds than med students do. (The avg age graduating from PA school in the Northeast is 30). I am sure trying to complete prereqs while working and/or raising a family is a lot harder than only having to worry about studying and taking care of yourself. Again, not all PA student have that kind of background, but the % is definitely significant enough that it can be a plausible explanation for why GPAs are lower. I think most of this bickering between both sides wouldn't exist if people understood that medical and PA school populations are not homogeneous.

Med students, please have enough confidence in yourselves, training, and profession to not be threatened by this proposed name change. PAs are not trying to become doctors or trying to create shortcuts to becoming a doctor; nor are we trying to undermine the process of becoming one. It is hard to be taken seriously as a provider when many patients feel that "the person who usually takes my height and weight is the one handling my medical decisions." The confusion about the PA profession is significant; I was even annoyed the first time I saw an "assistant" instead of a doctor before I learned about the PA scope of practice. There is a lot of power behind a title. I'm sure you all will agree that operating as a medical "student" can be frustrating at times, as staff and patients alike tend to not take you very seriously, despite the two or threes years of rigorous work you've already put in. I also know and have worked with many people who refuse to see interns and residents because "they're not real doctors yet." Imagine working as a PG-2 but still being labeled a "student" and dealing with the negative connotations that go along with it. "Student" isn't an accurate label for a resident, even though technically you are still one to a certain degree. Instead, you have a name that more accurately depicts your level of training and responsibility, neither short changing your studies nor inflating your level of responsibility. I think that is where many PAs are and why this issue has become so strong as of late.

 

[Maybeknot]

I also don't need MD/DO at the end of my name to feel validated about my knowledge and role in the health care system.

That's good for you, but apparently you do need a name change of your profession to feel validated about the knowledge and role you have in the health care system.

Although I haven't taken the MCAT, I don't think I'd have any problem getting into and going through medical school.

I *hate* this argument. While I grant that most physicians haven't gone through PA school, as far as I know, no PA-S or PA-C's have gone through and completed med school. (And please don't name an FMG you might know that is a PA now; they are the exception that proves the rule.)

I do tire of the "medicine is the highest intellectual challenge" crap. I was an engineering major in college and hold a master's in EE. I think IQ-wise, on average my engineering classmates and colleagues would probably score better than my med school classmates and residency colleagues. That doesn't mean I think that engineers would "have any problem getting into and going through medical school." Actually, given our general lack of social graces, it's probably best for all involved that some of these people stay far away from patients. (Radiology, anyone? )

PAs are not trying to become doctors or trying to create shortcuts to becoming a doctor; nor are we trying to undermine the process of becoming one.

I'm sure the NP's were saying this 15-20 years ago too.... and I'm willing to bet that 15-20 years from now, if the DNP's are successful, PA's will be lobbying for the same independent practice rights-- and they would, of course, be justified at that point because PA training >>>> DNP training. We as physicians need to stop this now, however innocuous it seems. As a wise man.... well, as a man once said.... "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.... um... uh.... ehh.... you can't get fooled again."

It is hard to be taken seriously as a provider when many patients feel that "the person who usually takes my height and weight is the one handling my medical decisions." The confusion about the PA profession is significant; I was even annoyed the first time I saw an "assistant" instead of a doctor before I learned about the PA scope of practice. There is a lot of power behind a title.

So you have to spend 10 seconds explaining your role. Is that really deterring you from practicing your profession?

Your assertion that "physician assistant" underdeclares your role might have merit. My assertion that "physician associate" overdeclares and further confuses your role might have merit. The fact that for 40 years, the title was and is "physician assistant," IMO, tips the scales my way.

I'm sure you all will agree that operating as a medical "student" can be frustrating at times, as staff and patients alike tend to not take you very seriously, despite the two or threes years of rigorous work you've already put in. I also know and have worked with many people who refuse to see interns and residents because "they're not real doctors yet."

I disagree; I spent many times trying to explain to patients and nurses(!) during my medicine sub-i months that I was the "house staff" in charge of their care. They always called me "doctor." I understood when patients did it, but I figured the nurses would know better.

It's certainly true that some patients demand that they are operated on by an attending. Hell, some of these people demand that they are operated on by the chair of the department, even though he's rather aged with poor vision. *shrug* The average patient is not like that, and we're not going to willy-nilly change things like the NAME of the field based on a few bad apples.

"Student" isn't an accurate label for a resident, even though technically you are still one to a certain degree. Instead, you have a name that more accurately depicts your level of training and responsibility, neither short changing your studies nor inflating your level of responsibility. I think that is where many PAs are and why this issue has become so strong as of late.

Actually my official title as a resident will be "clinical assistant instructor." I'm not going to run off demanding a title change....

 

[bnp07]

That's good for you, but apparently you do need a name change of your profession to feel validated about the knowledge and role you have in the health care system.

But why was the PA profession created? To help ease the patient load on doctors and to create better access to primary care services. If patients are refusing to see you because of the assistant in your name (which happens a lot), doesn't that defeat the purpose?

I *hate* this argument. While I grant that most physicians haven't gone through PA school, as far as I know, no PA-S or PA-C's have gone through and completed med school. (And please don't name an FMG you might know that is a PA now; they are the exception that proves the rule.)

Actually it does occur, and there are a few floating around on SDN.

I know the "I haven't taken the MCAT but..." argument seems a little shoddy, if I've spent hours tutoring pre-meds for it and done well on practice tests, I can be somewhat confident that I'd get a good score.

I do tire of the "medicine is the highest intellectual challenge" crap. I was an engineering major in college and hold a master's in EE. I think IQ-wise, on average my engineering classmates and colleagues would probably score better than my med school classmates and residency colleagues.

Agreed!

That doesn't mean I think that engineers would "have any problem getting into and going through medical school." Actually, given our general lack of social graces, it's probably best for all involved that some of these people stay far away from patients. (Radiology, anyone? )

Correct me if I'm wrong, if you are able to graduate with an engineering degree (especially a masters), and have done well, you most likely have the work ethic to get you through medical school. That's just based on what I have heard about engineering programs.

I also agree that there are many, many people who shouldn't be health care providers. One of the major points of having an interview is for an ADCOM to screen out those people who socially won't be good with patients. Some still slip through the cracks, but there is somewhat of a system to safeguard against it.

But notice I said I wouldn't have problems getting through medical school, not "all people who are seemingly intelligent in undergrad." I'm not foolish enough to make that statement. My personal background is different other applicants, and the whole point of my argument was that you can't make generalizations.

So you have to spend 10 seconds explaining your role. Is that really deterring you from practicing your profession?

That's not the problem, although I'm sure that saying what you do ten times a day for 20 years will get old. The problem is people who hear all that and still refuse to be seen by you.

Your assertion that "physician assistant" underdeclares your role might have merit. My assertion that "physician associate" overdeclares and further confuses your role might have merit. The fact that for 40 years, the title was and is "physician assistant," IMO, tips the scales my way.

And that is a valid concern, I understand that. PAs were originally named physician associates, but then their name was changed later. It's an issue of syntax and semantics. It's like the whole "assistant [to the] regional manager" gag on The Office. That wouldn't be funny if there wasn't some truth in it. Word order matters. There's a difference between an associate physician and a physician associate. There shouldn't be a difference, but there is.

I disagree; I spent many times trying to explain to patients and nurses(!) during my medicine sub-i months that I was the "house staff" in charge of their care. They always called me "doctor." I understood when patients did it, but I figured the nurses would know better.

I'm sure that's your personal experience; however I was basing my argument over the hundreds of posts I've read on this forum of med students talking about the lack of respect they receive in the hospital. I even once read something along the lines of "you get the same amount of respect if you walked around wearing a beanie." I guess you were one of the lucky ones.

It's certainly true that some patients demand that they are operated on by an attending. Hell, some of these people demand that they are operated on by the chair of the department, even though he's rather aged with poor vision. *shrug* The average patient is not like that, and we're not going to willy-nilly change things like the NAME of the field based on a few bad apples.

Hmm...but I bet if you ask the same resident who goes through that continuously, they would feel different. PAs go through that a lot.

Actually my official title as a resident will be "clinical assistant instructor." I'm not going to run off demanding a title change....

Since we're talking about average patients, how many people, if given a multiple choice test, when asked the question "What is the term for a doctor who has graduated from medical school but hasn't fully completed their clinical training yet?" would select "Clinical assistant instructor" over "resident?" The common name for someone in your position is resident, not "clinical assistant instructor." I'm sure that's not how you are introducing yourself to your patients either.

 

[Maybeknot]

But why was the PA profession created? To help ease the patient load on doctors and to create better access to primary care services. If patients are refusing to see you because of the assistant in your name (which happens a lot), doesn't that defeat the purpose?

That's not the problem, although I'm sure that saying what you do ten times a day for 20 years will get old. The problem is people who hear all that and still refuse to be seen by you.

Hmm...but I bet if you ask the same resident who goes through that continuously, they would feel different. PAs go through that a lot.

Seriously, how hard as, "Hi, I'm bnp07, I'm the PA and I'll be taking care of you today." Worked fine for everyone I knew that was a medical student. During my MS3 and 4 rotations, I worked with a lot of PA's. Never once heard a patient complain about seeing a PA, "assistant" or not.

As a health care provider, you have to deal with difficult patients. If a patient complained about seeing a female doctor, should female doctors advocate for sex changes? (or conversely, if a patient complained about seeing a male ob/gyn....)

Actually it does occur, and there are a few floating around on SDN.

If you read what I wrote again, I'm not talking about PA's who went to medical school--- I'm talking about people in PA school and people certified and practicing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, if you are able to graduate with an engineering degree (especially a masters), and have done well, you most likely have the work ethic to get you through medical school. That's just based on what I have heard about engineering programs.

I'm not talking about IQ or work ethic. Engineering training is substantially different from medical training, and comparing the two as some sort of scale is completely ridiculous. When I decided to go to med school, a lot of my engineering classmates said, "oh, you'll have an easy time of it." Nope.

And that is a valid concern, I understand that. PAs were originally named physician associates, but then their name was changed later. It's an issue of syntax and semantics. It's like the whole "assistant [to the] regional manager" gag on The Office. That wouldn't be funny if there wasn't some truth in it. Word order matters. There's a difference between an associate physician and a physician associate. There shouldn't be a difference, but there is.

Actually, if you look at Starpower's links, PA's were originally named physician assistants, and a few wanted to rename the profession as physician associates. This was a short-lived movement that failed to gain any traction 40 years ago. Why bring it up now? Especially at a time when the physician lobby is glaringly impotent?

Since we're talking about average patients, how many people, if given a multiple choice test, when asked the question "What is the term for a doctor who has graduated from medical school but hasn't fully completed their clinical training yet?" would select "Clinical assistant instructor" over "resident?" The common name for someone in your position is resident, not "clinical assistant instructor." I'm sure that's not how you are introducing yourself to your patients either.

There's a thread where we're discussing Dr nurses..
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720545&page=2

Apparently, more people think that DNP's and audiologists are medical doctors than otolaryngologists. I haven't heard anyone talking about changing the name of the field-- well, other than to add "rhino" into the middle. (and before anyone says it, translating from the Latin is not equivalent to changing the name of the field )

If PA's are so insistent that they have to CHANGE their name from what's been established in practice for nearly 50 years, then. Physician associate is MORE confusing than physician assistant. And I say this as someone who has worked with PA's and has great respect for their role in health care and their knowledge and abilities as health care providers.

 

[bnp07]

Seriously, how hard as, "Hi, I'm bnp07, I'm the PA and I'll be taking care of you today." Worked fine for everyone I knew that was a medical student.

Everyone knows what a medical student is, and that they are a doctor in training. Everyone does not know what a PA is, or what their roles and responsibilities are.

During my MS3 and 4 rotations, I worked with a lot of PA's. Never once heard a patient complain about seeing a PA, "assistant" or not.

As a health care provider, you have to deal with difficult patients. If a patient complained about seeing a female doctor, should female doctors advocate for sex changes? (or conversely, if a patient complained about seeing a male ob/gyn....)

If it never happened, it wouldn't be such a big issue. Remember, most PAs are also against the DNP movement because using Dr. clinically is an incredibly misleading title. We are very cognizant of making sure we are being portrayed in an accurate manner. I guess the only way to understand is to spend time with the PAs who are going through this on an everyday basis. I don't know anything about your background or where you've done your rotations, but I grew up in a rural area where nobody knows what a PA is. PAs weren't used in a hospital setting, (granted both "local" hospitals are quite small), nor were they used in doctor's office. My family doctor hired a PA a few years ago, and when I saw him a couple of months ago, he did say that patients refusing to see him is an issue, even after being in the area for 5 years. Maybe it's just a matter of where you are in the country.

Believe me, I've seen my share of difficult patients I'm actually the person who will go into patients rooms and let them take their anger out on me so the docs can be spared. While you could argue the sex change issue, the issue of patients refusing to see a female doc because they are female compared to those refusing to see a PA is marginal. If it ever became a big deal, I'm sure there would be a movement for some sort of change (and I'm not talking about a sex-change change). It is a big deal for male OB-GYNs, because unfortunately a few have ruined it for many. That's why there are chaperones now. It became an issue and they had to do something to allow them to keep practicing and seeing patients.

If you read what I wrote again, I'm not talking about PA's who went to medical school--- I'm talking about people in PA school and people certified and practicing.

Yup, you're right, I did misread that. But I actually read about at least one case where a MD became a PA. I don't know the details, and n=1, but I guess it's a moot point.

There's a thread where we're discussing Dr nurses..
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720545&page=2

Apparently, more people think that DNP's and audiologists are medical doctors than otolaryngologists. I haven't heard anyone talking about changing the name of the field-- well, other than to add "rhino" into the middle. (and before anyone says it, translating from the Latin is not equivalent to changing the name of the field )

If PA's are so insistent that they have to CHANGE their name from what's been established in practice for nearly 50 years, then. Physician associate is MORE confusing than physician assistant. And I say this as someone who has worked with PA's and has great respect for their role in health care and their knowledge and abilities as health care providers.

While I have nothing against the NP profession, I do have a problem with them using the term Dr. in a clinical setting, unless they introduce themselves as "Jane Smith, Dr. of nursing" which definitely won't happen 100% of the time. When I hear the term doctor, I have faith that they have had a bare minimum of 12000 hours of clinical training, when we all know that it's way more than that. The same standard isn't held for all NP programs. Like I said earlier, many PAs are against the DNP movement for that same reason--it's misleading. We're not being a bunch of hypocrites by shooting down one profession's quest for coming across like doctors but secretly trying to move into it ourselves. You've also mentioned the biggest internal opposition against the name change amongst PAs. But why wait? If most of the population doesn't know who we are or what we do now, is a name change really going to throw things out of whack?

I'm glad you have great respect for PAs, and it goes both ways. I am very adamant about making it clear that I am NOT a med student, but a PA student because there is a difference and I have respect for the training you have gone through. I know the timing of this argument isn't great with the whole DNP push, but please trust that there is a difference between what NPs are trying to do and what PAs are trying to do.

 

[Dr Oops]

Another important reason for the name change (and the main impetus behind this recent attempt) is to put up more blockade against DNPs attempting to 'oversee' PAs (and yes, those battles have already happened). PAs work with physicians as their SP ... NOT DNPs.

I couldn't care less what you think about me. You have made so many unsubstantiated claims in this thread, that your words are (mostly) clearly to be counted for naught. When you've experienced the didactic onslaught of PA school (and gee, guess what, I round with med students every day, and no, I wouldn't presume to know everything about their education), then maybe you'll understand what you're talking about. Until then, keep making ridiculous statements such as "PAs being able to survive medical school counts for ****..." in some blind attempt to raise your own self-esteem. You just have no idea what you're saying.

When you can remove yourself from the 'I'm better than you' mentality, you're going to be a much more valuable asset to medicine (and your patients).

In the same vein you dont know what med school is like, so for PAs to say that they can in and get through, which a few have already said in this thread, is the same thing about us talking about the PA curriculum.

 

[Starpower]

I know the timing of this argument isn't great with the whole DNP push, but please trust that there is a difference between what NPs are trying to do and what PAs are trying to do.

Again, another important reason for the name change (and what I believe is the main impetus behind this recent attempt) is to put up more blockade against DNPs attempting to 'oversee' PAs (and yes, those battles have already happened). PAs work with physicians as their SPs ... NOT DNPs. PA education is much more in-depth and rigorous (than either NP or DNP), and the cracks which need filling can NOT be attended to by nursing, they need to be handled by physicians.

Think about it ... "practitioner" vs "assistant"? Who do you think people will most think they should be seen by.

 

[Substance]

Again, another important reason for the name change (and what I believe is the main impetus behind this recent attempt) is to put up more blockade against DNPs attempting to 'oversee' PAs (and yes, those battles have already happened). PAs work with physicians as their SPs ... NOT DNPs. PA education is much more in-depth and rigorous (than either NP or DNP), and the cracks which need filling can NOT be attended to by nursing, they need to be handled by physicians.

Think about it ... "practitioner" vs "assistant"? Who do you think people will most think they should be seen by.

Physicians assistants assist physicians. They are not independent practitioners who occasionally "associate" with physicians. Therefore, the name should remain "physician assistant"

 

[Starpower]

Physicians assistants assist physicians. They are not independent practitioners who occasionally "associate" with physicians. Therefore, the name should remain "physician assistant"

Actually, there are some PAs who practice independently. The difference between they and the NP/DNPs who are practicing independently, is that the PAs are always in touch with their supervising physician. The DNPs are trying to remove themselves from that relationship, and that needs to be stopped.

No, PAs do not "assist" physicians. Get back to us once you've gotten your feet better wet. There is no apostrophe ... you figure it out.

 

[J1515]

Think about it ... "practitioner" vs "assistant"? Who do you think people will most think they should be seen by.

One also has the name "nurse" and the other has "physician" in the title. These are all things you knew about going into PA school, just as every DO knew what his or her initials would be upon graduating. Nobody should be complaining now. Everyone is getting what they signed up for.

No, PAs do not "assist" physicians. Get back to us once you've gotten your feet better wet. There is no apostrophe ... you figure it out.

PAs do assist physicians. That's exactly what they do. They work in fast track, do paperwork, pre-op/post-op evals, directly assist during surgeries, see some of the common complaints in the office. That's called assisting physicians so that the MD can see complex cases or do whatever it is he/she has to do. "Assist" doesn't have to mean handing someone a scalpel or getting them coffee. It really takes a good level of insecurity to spend so much time worrying about semantics (ie: there's no apostrophe so therefore it's not possessive, we don't assist we associate, etc...)

 

[Maybeknot]

Actually, there are some PAs who practice independently. The difference between they and the NP/DNPs who are practicing independently, is that the PAs are always in touch with their supervising physician. The DNPs are trying to remove themselves from that relationship, and that needs to be stopped.

So there are PA's that are supervised but independent? Wow! Do they need special "paradocs" training to achieve this?

Again, another important reason for the name change (and what I believe is the main impetus behind this recent attempt) is to put up more blockade against DNPs attempting to 'oversee' PAs (and yes, those battles have already happened).

Sorry, you lost me here. In what ways does being a "physician associate" prevent you from reporting to a DNP while a "physician assistant" won't?

My family doctor hired a PA a few years ago, and when I saw him a couple of months ago, he did say that patients refusing to see him is an issue, even after being in the area for 5 years. Maybe it's just a matter of where you are in the country.

You're making the assumption that this PA's patients refusing to see him because of the assistant title, rather than because he's a PA. What evidence do you have that the associate title would prevent this?

 

[Starpower]

So there are PA's that are supervised but independent? Wow! Do they need special "paradocs" training to achieve this?

Indeed there are. Per legal (and practical) requirements, they need to always have access to communication with their SP (including electronically or by phone). These are usually PAs who've been working a long time, and who work in rural areas (emedpa often works a solo ER in such a manner, and I know another PA in Alaska who is the sole provider to his community).

Sorry, you lost me here. In what ways does being a "physician associate" prevent you from reporting to a DNP while a "physician assistant" won't?

It is completely a matter of semantics, but an important one. There was actually wording in the healthcare reform bill which stated that NPs could supervise PAs ... thankfully, PAs saw it and stopped it in time. When a NP is seen as a "practitioner", and a PA is seen as an "assistant", well, it's not too hard to figure out what that can mean to, not only the general public (remember, these aren't people who peruse SDN and the PA forum), but also to legislators (such as those who thought it was acceptable to write that NPs could oversee PAs, before that wording was changed).

You can see more evidence of this in the new wave of "minute clinics", such as the ones popping up in CVS. If you look at job listings, PAs are offered "Physician Assistant", whereas NPs are offered "clinical operations". You can also see evidence of this in President Obama's initial speeches on reform, where he mentioned NPs but not PAs. PAs jumped on that immediately, and he thankfully included them in his speeches from then on (although still incorrectly calling them "Physician's Assistants"). Changing the name to 'Associate' puts PAs where they belong, in the spot of being trained in the medical model and whose accreditation is overseen partially by 5 physician groups, including the AMA.

Basically, nurses have been around for a long time and are very strong politically. But a new NP or DNP is in no shape to practice without the supervision of a physician or physician group, in my opinion.

Wow, J1515, so Docs don't do paperwork anymore! I will agree with you that PAs assist during surgery, they are there to first assist. And yes, surgical PAs are often in charge of pre and post-op evals. But I disagree that your other definitions fit so well with the word 'assistant'. It really does depend on the situation.

Some have proposed that the PA be considered a Physician Associate after a certain amount of time on the job, and who have reached a determined level of skill and training, which I find to be really reasonable. The problem with that is that things might just get even more confusing (not like they're not already, to many). But whatever happens, PAs will still be PAs, regardless of what the 'a' stands for (I'm sure there are a few words you'd like to suggest, from the sounds of it).

 

[Starpower]

So there are PA's that are supervised but independent? Wow! Do they need special "paradocs" training to achieve this?

Indeed there are. Per legal (and practical) requirements, they need to always have access to communication with their SP (including electronically or by phone). These are usually PAs who've been working a long time, and who work in rural areas (emedpa often works a solo ER in such a manner, and I know another PA in Alaska who is the sole provider to his community).

Sorry, you lost me here. In what ways does being a "physician associate" prevent you from reporting to a DNP while a "physician assistant" won't?

It is completely a matter of semantics, but an important one. There was actually wording in the healthcare reform bill which stated that NPs could supervise PAs ... thankfully, PAs saw it and stopped it in time. When a NP is seen as a "practitioner", and a PA is seen as an "assistant", well, it's not too hard to figure out what that can mean to, not only the general public (remember, these aren't people who peruse SDN and the PA forum), but also to legislators (such as those who thought it was acceptable to write that NPs could oversee PAs, before that wording was changed).

You can see more evidence of this in the new wave of "minute clinics", such as the ones popping up in CVS. If you look at job listings, PAs are offered "Physician Assistant", whereas NPs are offered "clinical operations". You can also see evidence of this in President Obama's initial speeches on reform, where he mentioned NPs but not PAs. PAs jumped on that immediately, and he thankfully included them in his speeches from then on (although still incorrectly calling them "Physician's Assistants"). Add on to all of it the DNP, where nurses are called 'Doctor" (but thankfully not where people are smart enough to stand up to them).

Basically, nurses have been around for a long time and are very strong politically. But a new NP or DNP is in no shape to practice without the supervision of a physician or physician group, in my opinion. Changing the PA name to 'Associate' puts PAs where they belong, in the spot of having been trained in the medical model and whose accreditation is overseen partially by 5 physician groups, including the AMA.

Wow, J1515, so Docs don't do paperwork anymore! I will agree with you that PAs assist during surgery, they are there to first assist. And yes, surgical PAs are often in charge of pre and post-op evals. But I disagree that your other definitions fit so well with the word 'assistant'. It really does depend on the situation.

Some have proposed that the PA be considered a Physician Associate after a certain amount of time on the job, and who have reached a determined level of skill and training, which I find to be really reasonable. The problem with that is that things might just get even more confusing (not like they're not already, to many). But whatever happens, PAs will still be PAs, regardless of what the 'a' stands for (I'm sure there are a few words you'd like to suggest, from the sounds of it).

 

[J1515]

Wow, J1515, so Docs don't do paperwork anymore!

Who said that? How do you have time to study when you spend so much time worrying about semantics and reading into definitions? PAs assist doctors by helping with paperwork.

But whatever happens, PAs will still be PAs, regardless of what the 'a' stands for (I'm sure there are a few words you'd like to suggest, from the sounds of it).

The PAs I work with are actually great. They're not nearly as whiny as the people here. They introduce themselves to patients as "the PA with the team", do their work, and go home. Nobody has any problems including the patients.

 

[Maybeknot]

Indeed there are. Per legal (and practical) requirements, they need to always have access to communication with their SP (including electronically or by phone). These are usually PAs who've been working a long time, and who work in rural areas (emedpa often works a solo ER in such a manner, and I know another PA in Alaska who is the sole provider to his community).

By definition, if you're being supervised, you're not independent.

It is completely a matter of semantics, but an important one. There was actually wording in the healthcare reform bill which stated that NPs could supervise PAs ... thankfully, PAs saw it and stopped it in time. When a NP is seen as a "practitioner", and a PA is seen as an "assistant", well, it's not too hard to figure out what that can mean to, not only the general public (remember, these aren't people who peruse SDN and the PA forum), but also to legislators (such as those who thought it was acceptable to write that NPs could oversee PAs, before that wording was changed).

If the nursing profession has enough clout to force physician assistants to practice under nurses, then they have enough clout to force physician associates to practice under nurses. Anything else is wishful thinking.

Some have proposed that the PA be considered a Physician Associate after a certain amount of time on the job, and who have reached a determined level of skill and training, which I find to be really reasonable. The problem with that is that things might just get even more confusing (not like they're not already, to many). But whatever happens, PAs will still be PAs, regardless of what the 'a' stands for (I'm sure there are a few words you'd like to suggest, from the sounds of it).

I don't have a problem with the Associate part. I have a problem with the Physician Associate part, which to me (and I'd assume most people) meant a physician that's part of a group. Hell, when my attending tells a patient that he's sending him to someone else in the department, it's "I'll refer you to my associate, Dr. ____." If PA's want to be called Practice Associates, Clinical Associates, Clinical Underlings Not Techs (don't use that one), that's fine with me. Physician assistant isn't a perfect term, but it's far more representative and clearer of what the PA profession is than Physician Associate.

 

[Starpower]

By definition, if you're being supervised, you're not independent.

Okay, enough with the games already. Independent/autonomous, you choose a word that describes flying out to the tundra for 6 weeks at a time, by yourself. Give me a break, get a life.

 

[Maybeknot]

Okay, enough with the games already. Independent/autonomous, you choose a word that describes flying out to the tundra for 6 weeks at a time, by yourself. Give me a break, get a life.

The first 5 definitions from dictionary.com
independent -
–adjective
1. not influenced or controlled by others in matters of opinion, conduct, etc.; thinking or acting for oneself: an independent thinker.
2. not subject to another's authority or jurisdiction; autonomous; free: an independent businessman.
3. not influenced by the thought or action of others: independent research.
4. not dependent; not depending or contingent upon something else for existence, operation, etc.
5. not relying on another or others for aid or support.

It's your profession and your post; why do I have to do the work for you? Is this a harbinger of our future working atmosphere as physician-PA?