Research as an MD?

[Slowpoke]

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Without an MD/PHD, is it still possible to do research as an MD?

Frankly, I'm struggling to come to a conclusive decision of whether or not I want to pursue a PHD or MD. However, if it is possible for me to also do research as an MD later on in my life this would be great.

MD/PHD, for practical purposes is not within my stats range.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Without an MD/PHD, is it still possible to do research as an MD?.

Yes, i know many MDs in different specialties who do clinical or basic science research as part of their practice.

 

[ShinyDome19]

I fiddled with the same decision while going through my masters program. I decided to go with the MD path. Prior to starting medical school I worked for two years in a hospital research laboratory and met several MD researchers. While many of them tend to do clinical research, I did meet two nephrologists (MD) that did molecular research.

So, it is very possible; however you have to remember that they still have clinical duties that they partake in. So, if you want to strictly do research, then your probably better off with the PhD path.

 

[Slowpoke]

thanks for the replies, they are very informative. Did you happen to ever get a chance to ask them what their typical day is like?

More specifically, is it clinical work on top of doing research or is there time split between the both somehow?

 

[exptherainbow]

One of the researchers in my department is an MD with a masters in biostats and does research full time. Almost all of the others are part time researchers, part time clinicians with MD, MS or just a plain MD.

By committing to a career in research as an MD, there are also some programs that offer a certain percentage of debt forgiveness.

Another thing you can do if you really like research, but don't want to do the full MD/PhD is to apply for programs that allow you to take a year off to pursue research and/or a masters during medical school.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Even if you don't do a formal PhD, my understanding is that you'll have to put in the time somewhere if you want to conduct basic/translational research. Ie. a research fellowship/post-doc after residency, etc. Med school + residency =/= researcher on their own; they're designed to put out clinicians. From what I gathered, after talking to several MDs who conduct basic science research, it seems like most spent between 2-3 yrs in a post-doc position before becoming PIs. This is a small sample size though (less than 10), so it might not be the same everywhere else.

Edit: Some of the ones I know have the 80/20 split where they spend 20% of their time (ie. 1 out of every 5 days) in the clinic and the rest in the lab. The others do research full-time.

 

[ShinyDome19]

thanks for the replies, they are very informative. Did you happen to ever get a chance to ask them what their typical day is like?

More specifically, is it clinical work on top of doing research or is there time split between the both somehow?

From my own observation of one of them, he had set clinic hours where he would go see patients, like 3-4 hours a day, then the rest of the day was his to run the lab. Both of them also carried pagers on them the whole time and it was quite common for them to get paged in the middle of something and give instructions to a nurse over the phone or leave the lab all together and go do something in the clinic.

Like Exptherainbow said, there are programs in medical school for people who are interested in research. For instance, my school has a program where you start research during your first summer break and get paid for it. You stay associated with the lab/clinic your doing research in over the next couple years till you graduate, doing research on the side, when you can...When you graduate, your supposed to get something on your degree that says you completed a research program. However, I havent heard of any programs that reduce your student loan debt like Exptherainbow stated, aside from MD/PhD programs, but I cant say I have looked all that hard into it either...

just my opinion, if your hard up for just research, do the PhD...you get research oriented training without the debt...I got paid to get my masters degree more or less and would have gotten paid to get my PhD had I stayed on. Medical School classes (atleast my'n) arnt geared around research, so if you really want to get into it and learn how to do it, you have to do extra work.

 

[exptherainbow]

I go to a research-oriented school, so my courses focus a lot on research concepts. That could be something you can look at when applying to schools - some really emphasize research, others don't (both are fine!)

As for those debt forgiveness programs I was talking about, they're the NIH loan repayment programs (http://lrp.info.nih.gov/). You generally don't enroll in them until after you've finished your physician training and take a research position at an academic institution, so they reduce your debt after the fact.

 

[Mr hawkings]

thanks for the replies, they are very informative. Did you happen to ever get a chance to ask them what their typical day is like?

More specifically, is it clinical work on top of doing research or is there time split between the both somehow?

My old boss did 1/3 research and 2/3 clinical so she would be in the hospital most of the time and popped into the lab a couple of hours avery couple of days to make sure everything was running smoothly. Having said that, there were other MDs down the hall that were way more involved than she was so i suspect that they were closer to 50-50.
I dont know how the salary structure worked but i know that she got part of her salary from the hospital and the other part from grants.

 

[Mr hawkings]

,all that hard into it either...

just my opinion, if your hard up for just research, do the PhD...you get research oriented training without the debt...I got paid to get my masters degree more or less and would have gotten paid to get my PhD had I stayed on. Medical School classes (atleast my'n) arnt geared around research, so if you really want to get into it and learn how to do it, you have to do extra work.

I agree with everything you said. I think the main advantage of doing research partime with the MD as opposed to fulltime with a pHd is that you have the clinical side as a backup in case grant funding dries up.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

My old boss did 1/3 research and 2/3 clinical so she would be in the hospital most of the time and popped into the lab a couple of hours avery couple of days to make sure everything was running smoothly. Having said that, there were other MDs down the hall that were way more involved than she was so i suspect that they were closer to 50-50.
I dont know how the salary structure worked but i know that she got part of her salary from the hospital and the other part from grants.

Was that a basic/translational lab? Just curious, since it's the first time I'd be hearing about something like this occurring in a non-clinical-research lab. And was she the PI? Or did she primarily collaborate with a PI and essentially work as a post-doc? And did she write the majority of the grants? Or were post-docs/grad students covering most of the work there?

Sorry for so many questions. As far as I understand it, from talking to a TON of MD/PhDs and PhDs, it's nearly impossible to do significant, meaningful basic science research if you're not devoting more than 3/4 of your time to the lab. I'm just curious since I've been struggling with the decision between MD/PhD and MD-only (I'm MD-only at this point but am thinking of applying to the PhD program as well during M1 this coming year). 🙂

 

[Slowpoke]

First off, thank you for all of the replies. 👍

Sorry for so many questions. As far as I understand it, from talking to a TON of MD/PhDs and PhDs, it's nearly impossible to do significant, meaningful basic science research if you're not devoting more than 3/4 of your time to the lab. I'm just curious since I've been struggling with the decision between MD/PhD and MD-only (I'm MD-only at this point but am thinking of applying to the PhD program as well during M1 this coming year). 🙂

This was my PI's perspective when prodded about his thoughts on MD/PhD. I got a sense from the conversation that it just would not be the most efficient decision you could make. Time was better spent focusing in one or the other.

I'd be really curious to know how MD/PhD's usually split their times after the training process. Sometimes I wish there was more time in the day to fit in all the things you want to do. I guess from all of the answers though the idea of having the option of doing research in the future is very attractive. Although I am not sure how practical that can be as I can imagine it would take a long time to overcome the initial debt of getting trained for an MD.

 

[TheRach1025]

That NIH Loan Repayment Program is very attractive. That would definitely make committing to a research career easier for a indebted med school grad.

One question to those people who know a few researcher MDs. Do they normally see patients as it relates to their research or for income/job requirements? I would ideally like to see patients as part of my research. I guess that would be considered translational.

 

[deleted191570]

Without an MD/PHD, is it still possible to do research as an MD?

Frankly, I'm struggling to come to a conclusive decision of whether or not I want to pursue a PHD or MD. However, if it is possible for me to also do research as an MD later on in my life this would be great.

MD/PHD, for practical purposes is not within my stats range.

Why do you want to get an MD?

If you don't know if you'll like patient care, spending 7+ years in medical training might not be worth it. (Plus all the debt!)

 

[Slowpoke]

Why do you want to get an MD?

If you don't know if you'll like patient care, spending 7+ years in medical training might not be worth it. (Plus all the debt!)

This is a good question.

Unfortunately, there is no way for me to really honestly "know" if I will like patient care. There is no real way for me to quantitatively "try" medicine without actually being in the midst of it. It kind of sucks. Volunteering? Shadowing? These things I have done. Don't get me wrong, it is very reassuring to know that from what I have been able to see and experience I can really see myself doing. But is there a chance when I get there myself that I will feel the same way? Sure... I just don't want to be stuck and not have an option of making sure I don't hate my job and take it out on co-workers, clients, and any other individuals I come in contact with in the future.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that some residencies (e.g. surgery) have an optional or required 1-2 years of research.

I know MD's who spend 50% or less of their time in 'academic' work (research and administrative stuff). These are usually well established with numerous grants and have fellows/residents/grad students doing most of the busy paperwork and lab work. The pi is the brains of the research but spends little time writing grants, papers or doing the work.

So, there are too many possibilities even with 'just' an MD. You'll be anything but 'stuck'. Trust me.

 

[Angulimala]

My old boss did 1/3 research and 2/3 clinical so she would be in the hospital most of the time and popped into the lab a couple of hours avery couple of days to make sure everything was running smoothly.

My boss does this too with clinical research. Totally do-able.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Was that a basic/translational lab? Just curious, since it's the first time I'd be hearing about something like this occurring in a non-clinical-research lab. And was she the PI? Or did she primarily collaborate with a PI and essentially work as a post-doc? And did she write the majority of the grants? Or were post-docs/grad students covering most of the work there?

Sorry for so many questions. As far as I understand it, from talking to a TON of MD/PhDs and PhDs, it's nearly impossible to do significant, meaningful basic science research if you're not devoting more than 3/4 of your time to the lab. I'm just curious since I've been struggling with the decision between MD/PhD and MD-only (I'm MD-only at this point but am thinking of applying to the PhD program as well during M1 this coming year). 🙂

It was strictly basic science. She was as ID doc and she was the PI. She had one post doc and me. She wrote all her own grants and helped the post doc write her own as well. I did most of the donkey bench work so they threw me a bone and each assigned me to a part of their projects which i was able to get published.
Most days, even when she was in Lab, she would write her clinical notes or call in to give instructions to residents and fellows in the hospital constantly.
The folks down the hall to us were OB/Gyn and the PI spent way more time in the lab. He was also much younger and just starting out in research. Their stuff was much more translational.
My boss had the luxury of 30 years research experience and could trouble-shoot my F%&#-ups over the phone without coming in.
I would get to work and i'd have a task in my email that had to do that day with the protocol for the experiment.
The younger guys were still working out the kinks and developing a relationship with their staff and students.

 

[Slowpoke]

Thanks everyone for the replies, it is all really helping me figure this all out!

 

[sunset823]

I go to a research-oriented school, so my courses focus a lot on research concepts. That could be something you can look at when applying to schools - some really emphasize research, others don't (both are fine!)

As for those debt forgiveness programs I was talking about, they're the NIH loan repayment programs (http://lrp.info.nih.gov/). You generally don't enroll in them until after you've finished your physician training and take a research position at an academic institution, so they reduce your debt after the fact.

I'd be interested in knowing more about the debt forgiveness program. Academics is the only place I want to be, but unfortunately I don't go to a research oriented school and my background and interests are more in social science and health outcomes research. (I actually seriously considered the idea of doing an MD/PhD in a social science discipline, but that fizzled out because that department did not take any joint degree candidates).

How do you establish interest in doing this research, and what is the timeline for the loan repayment program? do you apply during residency? fellowship? when you're done with training? Right now I am really interested in critical care (still deciding whether to go anesthesia or IM route, based on my step 1 scores and such). From the website it looks like it's possible to get it doing outcomes research, but is this more difficult to get funded?

I am going to be in an enormous amount of debt but I have no desire to do anything but academia, so I'm looking closely at either this repayment option or the PSLF (public service loan forgiveness)

 

[mvenus929]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that some residencies (e.g. surgery) have an optional or required 1-2 years of research.

In order to become a board certified pediatric specialist (i.e. anything but a general pediatrician), you are required to do a research project. From what I've heard, they're pretty lax about what they consider a 'research project', but if you're interested in research, there are definitely opportunities out there.

 

[thesauce]

OP: There are a ton of MD researchers out there (far more than MD/PhDs). Besides having a unique perspective on research, MDs have great job opportunities, great success rates with grant-funding, and are generally paid more than their PhD counterparts. I'm not arguing that a PhD isn't a good choice for research, just that it's not always the best choice. Both paths have their strengths and MDs are positioned to do certain types of research better than PhDs, and vice versa. Good luck in making your decision.