Research assistant no publications after 2 years; PI says managing the lab has more weight than first authorships, publications

[pauliyah]

I work as a research assistant at a biggish cancer hospital. 2 years ago, I joined a small lab as that promised me few small first-authorships papers to boost my medical school application (my bachelors record was crappy due to a marital predicament which was since eliminated). I have two kids, and I figured in order to boost my chances, I will go extra hard with publications to make it all count. After some lab changes, I took on majority of responsibilities of a lead scientist (who had to move states, but works remotely) effectively becoming a lab manager sans appropriate compensation. And a lot of unpaid OT.

PI added two new residents, and to my dismay, irregardless of the effort I put in experiments for publication, my spot would be always lower authorship wise. I chatted with my PI about this, he said he would write me a great recommendation letter, and showing the med school admissions that I can lead a research lab, would be of a greater boost than any publications I might have wanted as a first author.
I doubt that’s the case. Im not interested in managerial duties at expense of publications especially when I could be doing the same at biotech companies and being paid appropriately. And my kids and I wouldn’t have to tighten the belt. What are your thoughts? How should I boost my application?

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[atriablack]

While I will let others answer your main question, one point I wanted to make:

He said he would write me a great recommendation letter.

Ask for that letter now. Regardless of whether you choose to stay on with the PI or move on, thank him profusely for the offer and have him submit on Interfolio. Right now you are on good terms and your qualities are fresh on your PI's mind. Don't move on to a new position until you get that letter and don't mention that you are considering it until you get the letter. Interfolio can store confidential letters that you can later submit to AMCAS. A strong letter from a PI will still carry a lot of weight.
I was once in the unfortunate position of being pushed out of a lab due to politics and good ol' sexism. I was on good terms with the PI previously and chose not to fight it (why stay at a place that doesn't want me) but I asked for a letter of rec in the middle of thanking them for the opprtunities they had given me so far. Guilt about promises broken totally contributed to how great that letter was.

 

[Hollow Knight]

No offense to your PI, but at my school, that idea is wrong. Having research experience + pubs is better than research experience with no pubs, regardless of the context. Great letters are helpful too though.

Edit: sorry, it's late and I'm dumb. Honestly, I'd probably say that amount of publications trumps whether you're first author or not, so as long as the lab is putting out work with your name on it somewhere, this seems like a good gig. But maybe some faculty (or students that got a ton of publications) can chime in here, this seems a little nuanced.

Now if your PI is telling you that you won't get any pubs even as like 6th author, yeah, you need to find a new lab.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

First, I'm glad your family situation has been straightened out.

Secondly, don't put so much weight on first-author publications. Sure, you could be promised that, but you were hired as a research assistant. You can be promised the moon, but if the PI loses a grant that funds you tomorrow, you could lose your job. The residents' careers are important too, and they may have more leverage to warrant a first-author position than you; it's up to your PI to determine shared first-authorships too. And when you publish, you all have to sign off on your authorship and contributions. As long as you get a publication and can talk to others reasonably about the science, you will be fine.

Unless you are going for a Ph.D. spot, I wouldn't worry now about a first-author placement. Sure, get some publications into your CV. I agree you should make sure your PI is supportive with your letter. The managerial duties you abhor may actually be of great interest to any other faculty PI or admissions reviewer. Knowing that you are reliable, can function and think independently, and have a sense of integrity are winning characteristics in any letter.

 

[eigen]

I think applicants stress too much about publications over the experiences they're getting and the lessons they're learning, especially if they aren't applying to a PhD program. And even then, I don't see # of publications having nearly as much of an impact as strong letters, interesting research and playing a role where you are contributing intellectually to the research and not just acting as a pair of hands.

You can be in a position to get added to lots of papers without making significant contributions, and that's not really as impactful.

 

[FlowRate]

Are you the one doing the data analysis and drafting the papers? Institutional rules often mandate that the person performing that role is first author.

 

[pauliyah]

Thank you all for your replies. I’m taking it all and figuring it all out.
@Mr.Smile12 I have one potential project that will result in a publication as a first author. I’m in the mids of data collection, something that is expected to take 1-2 more years. PI promised me the project, I’m keeping fingers crossed this will work out and will not be passed on to the residents. This project will be clinical and I will do the writing with some support if the residents and PI.
Basic science research is taking some time. There are opportunities to write or assist in writing clinical papers with the residents.
I have been thinking about pursuing masters (more so nowadays as a backup, expansion of my interest related to work project and potential additional boost to med school, especially since I’d have to retake some college courses prior to just meet min GPA requirements).
How do I proceed? Everyday is a balance and a internal conflict with the time investment but also the pay cut me and my kids are taking.
@atriablack mentioned asking for a letter of recommendation now. Should I? Wouldn’t I have to specify the schools I’m applying to or could it be general?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

You say you are doing a lot of uncompensated overtime managing the lab.

Let's go back to your job description. Are you gettimg paid per hour or on a stipend?

 

[atriablack]

Wouldn’t I have to specify the schools I’m applying to or could it be general?

Your letter shouldn’t be specific to one school, just a general recommendation to medical school. The beauty of Interfolio is that you don’t have to specify a recipient, it can store the letter until you are ready to send it to AMCAS when you apply. In AMCAS you will assign the letter to various schools. I started collecting letters back in sophomore year; all I had to do was ask letter writers to login and redate the letter (some were over two years old). Letters transferred over to AMCAS in a day or two and was pretty seamless.
The only thing is, Interfolio did charge me for sending the letters. I don’t believe you need a subscription to store letters, but yea the year you are applying you would need a subscription. I don’t know of any other confidential letter storage services like Interfolio so I begrudgingly forked over the money.

 

[pauliyah]

You say you are doing a lot of uncompensated overtime managing the lab.

Let's go back to your job description. Are you gettimg paid per hour or on a stipend?

Got promoted shortly after departure of scientist. It was a nice raise, however I settled for less salary wise just to be able to stay and continue with the lab, vs what I would get paid by being an hourly with all the OT I was doing. Personal compromise I was willing to make to be able to do projects.
Then the residents came, I went from 2nd place to 3rd-4th on the project scientist and I began working on. That stung. On weekly I do 8-10 hrs of OT. Residents barely put in required time.
With some hurt feelings emerging, PI and I had a converstaion regarding my future plans and opportunities. I mentioned that I spent two years supporting the lab and was waiting for an opportunity to get some project to lead or co-lead, and until now, I have no publications under my belt (residents have close to 20). I am considering my options and currently exploring masters to aid my application (and serve as a backup). PI wasn’t too enthusiastic about this, said that leading the lab would yield a lot more power and show great productivity. I asked for more projects, he said I can help residents, I asked for main basic science opportunities, he was not committal “we will pick a right one for you when it comes up”.
To me, I don’t mind unpaid OT as long as other opportunities are there (projects). I had a lead experience as a President of student run club at college (which was a very busy time for me at that time: newborn/infant/toddler plus school work plus club responsibility). That should have already demonstrated a lot of integrity.
My position isn’t grant funded (residents and I get paid by the hospital) and my lab is expanding. Grants recently extended, I feel we are secure.
I love my job, I’m dedicated and passionate about it, but I’m having second thoughts now because I don’t think its reciprocated. I’m unsure if PI is “dosing me” to prevent early departure or I’m just not what on par with his standards…

 

[pauliyah]

Your letter shouldn’t be specific to one school, just a general recommendation to medical school. The beauty of Interfolio is that you don’t have to specify a recipient, it can store the letter until you are ready to send it to AMCAS when you apply. In AMCAS you will assign the letter to various schools. I started collecting letters back in sophomore year; all I had to do was ask letter writers to login and redate the letter (some were over two years old). Letters transferred over to AMCAS in a day or two and was pretty seamless.
The only thing is, Interfolio did charge me for sending the letters. I don’t believe you need a subscription to store letters, but yea the year you are applying you would need a subscription. I don’t know of any other confidential letter storage services like Interfolio so I begrudgingly forked over the money.

This is great and super helpful! Thank you so much!!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Got promoted shortly after departure of scientist. It was a nice raise, however I settled for less salary wise just to be able to stay and continue with the lab, vs what I would get paid by being an hourly with all the OT I was doing. Personal compromise I was willing to make to be able to do projects.
Then the residents came, I went from 2nd place to 3rd-4th on the project scientist and I began working on. That stung. On weekly I do 8-10 hrs of OT. Residents barely put in required time.
With some hurt feelings emerging, PI and I had a converstaion regarding my future plans and opportunities. I mentioned that I spent two years supporting the lab and was waiting for an opportunity to get some project to lead or co-lead, and until now, I have no publications under my belt (residents have close to 20). I am considering my options and currently exploring masters to aid my application (and serve as a backup). PI wasn’t too enthusiastic about this, said that leading the lab would yield a lot more power and show great productivity. I asked for more projects, he said I can help residents, I asked for main basic science opportunities, he was not committal “we will pick a right one for you when it comes up”.
To me, I don’t mind unpaid OT as long as other opportunities are there (projects). I had a lead experience as a President of student run club at college (which was a very busy time for me at that time: newborn/infant/toddler plus school work plus club responsibility). That should have already demonstrated a lot of integrity.
My position isn’t grant funded (residents and I get paid by the hospital) and my lab is expanding. Grants recently extended, I feel we are secure.
I love my job, I’m dedicated and passionate about it, but I’m having second thoughts now because I don’t think its reciprocated. I’m unsure if PI is “dosing me” to prevent early departure or I’m just not what on par with his standards…

There are other employment issues I don't want to go into here, but I am pretty sure you shouldn't be uncompensated for overtime as a rule. It is something many PIs take advantage of with research associates. The residents I don't think are paid hourly (also not sure of being above income threshold) so they aren't eligible for overtime.

But that's for another discussion. I will just leave this.

3.6 million workers to be eligible for overtime pay under a proposed Biden administration rule

The new rule would require employers to pay overtime to so-called white collar workers who make less than $55,000 a year.

www.pbs.org

On jobs, we may be a little past the panic over having more jobs available and people scaling up their hourly pay post pandemic. But be honest with yourself about what your skills are worth. The vow of poverty will come when you get to medical school, so do whatever you can to get the financial safety net/nest for that time. It might not be a good time to leave now, but don't sell yourself short in your own goals or expectations.

On the LOR, a general one for medical school is fine.

 

[pauliyah]

There are other employment issues I don't want to go into here, but I am pretty sure you shouldn't be uncompensated for overtime as a rule. It is something many PIs take advantage of with research associates. The residents I don't think are paid hourly (also not sure of being above income threshold) so they aren't eligible for overtime.

But that's for another discussion. I will just leave this.

3.6 million workers to be eligible for overtime pay under a proposed Biden administration rule

The new rule would require employers to pay overtime to so-called white collar workers who make less than $55,000 a year.

www.pbs.org

On jobs, we may be a little past the panic over having more jobs available and people scaling up their hourly pay post pandemic. But be honest with yourself about what your skills are worth. The vow of poverty will come when you get to medical school, so do whatever you can to get the financial safety net/nest for that time. It might not be a good time to leave now, but don't sell yourself short in your own goals or expectations.

On the LOR, a general one for medical school is fine.

Thank you for your take! I guess my question is… should I take advantage of tuition reimbursement and pursue masters or stick to what PI is saying, carry on as an underpaid research manager? Assuming nothing changes, status quo stays both scenarios, my name will go on limited number of publications and I will have an opportunity to finish my first authorship. Would you have an advice here?

 

[GoSpursGo]

First of all, I think you're overly focused on getting a first author publication. Would it be nice to get one, sure of course it would, but I do not think that it would significantly enhance your application. And there is essentially no difference at all between 2nd vs 3rd vs 4th vs any other middle author.

If you were PROMISED a first author publication and they are reneging on this promise, then that is poor form. HOWEVER, I would generally also say that I would not EXPECT a bachelors level technician, even a highly skilled one, to be a project leader in a lab. Period. When I hire a tech, it's because I need somebody to do a task, and I need for it to be done well. If I can recruit someone who is highly motivated and is able to eventually form a side project that they're interested in, that's great, but ultimately I need for them to do a job. We have a boss/employee relationship, and I am compensating them for their work by paying their salary (or in your case, I suppose the hospital is supporting the PI by paying for a tech salary, and your PI is allocating that money to you). In contrast, if I recruit a fellow/post-doc/resident/medical student/grad student into the lab, I am taking on a mentor/mentee relationship. Part of being a mentor means I need to find them projects that they can lead, and that are likely to result in a first-author publication in a timely manner. Now they do need to actually pick up and LEAD the project and do the writing, but if they hold up that end of the bargain then I am obliged to compensate them with that opportunity when it comes time to write the paper. And to put this as gently as possible, the clinical expertise that residents and fellows have oftentimes makes them better suited to design experiments and interpret findings in a way that yield clinical relevance--ie even if you are the expert in completing an experiment in the lab, they may have the expertise in interpreting the data.

You should get fairly compensated for the work you are doing, and if they promise you something in regards to authorship then they should honor that commitment. However, while you could undoubtedly make more $$ in a non-academic setting, you also likely would not be getting any authorship there, and you wouldn't get exposure to some of these clinical projects that probably play better for a medical school application. So while it is totally reasonable for you to consider finding a different place to work if you feel you aren't being adequately compensated both in terms of salary and professional recognition, at the same time it does sound like there are some concrete positives to your current position. While I think your PI may be slightly exaggerating the value that "leading" a lab will hold for you, I do think that if you come out of this with multiple middle author publications and an absolutely glowing letter of recommendation which speaks concretely to how indispensable you were/how you're a great team player/etc, you're going to stand out as one of the best applicants at basically any institution in terms of research.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Thank you for your take! I guess my question is… should I take advantage of tuition reimbursement and pursue masters or stick to what PI is saying, carry on as an underpaid research manager? Assuming nothing changes, status quo stays both scenarios, my name will go on limited number of publications and I will have an opportunity to finish my first authorship. Would you have an advice here?

I don't think a masters will help your med school application. Do it if you want to be able to become a more highly qualified research scientist, but I feel like once you head down that path you're probably no longer pursuing med school.

 

[pauliyah]

I don't think a masters will help your med school application. Do it if you want to be able to become a more highly qualified research scientist, but I feel like once you head down that path you're probably no longer pursuing med school.

Thank you so much for all the great feedback. Many great points made for me to consider, and it definitely puts things in the perspective.

Is there an advice you could give me re: my bachelors records? Is there a point in attempting to straighten it out (GPA very low) by either post-bacc enrollment or repeating single classes of greater importance and acing the MCAT?

If leading the lab accounts for little, I will start thinking of Spring enrollment to make the most of my time.

Thank you all for great feedback!

 

[GoSpursGo]

Thank you so much for all the great feedback. Many great points made for me to consider, and it definitely puts things in the perspective.

Is there an advice you could give me re: my bachelors records? Is there a point in attempting to straighten it out (GPA very low) by either post-bacc enrollment or repeating single classes of greater importance and acing the MCAT?

If leading the lab accounts for little, I will start thinking of Spring enrollment to make the most of my time.

Thank you all for great feedback!

Hard to say without specifics. But in general, the most important part of your application to prove that you will be a successful medical student is showing that you can be a successful student. If your GPA is low, you need to redeem yourself there and do well on the MCAT.

 

[pauliyah]

Hard to say without specifics. But in general, the most important part of your application to prove that you will be a successful medical student is showing that you can be a successful student. If your GPA is low, you need to redeem yourself there and do well on the MCAT.

Thank you so much!