research at MGH, BID, BWH?

[Spacedman]

Hi all,

I'm applying for residency this year, and I'm very interested in programs that support basic research during/after residency- i'm wondering if anyone has insight into how MGH, BID and BWH compare in that regard. I've heard a lot about MGH from my home chair, but very little about the other harvard-affiliated programs. some programs (e.g. columbia, cornell, penn) have research tracks which include postgraduate funding, and more importantly, seem to have residents in those research tracks. the websites for MGH, BID and BWH are pretty opaque- they all seem well awash with NIH $$, but it's not obvious whether any residents are actually involved. any adivce appreciated-

S

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[kraphtymac]

From my interview at MGH they not only have a TON of money, they want you to get involved right off. Lots of opportunities.

 

[lushmd]

I'm sure that all three Harvard affiliated programs have strong research programs (I interviewed at MGH last year and can attest to their very strong research program). However, given the shortage of anesthesiologists interested in research/academics, it seems that many programs are happy to support those that are. Of course, not many programs have the funding/infrastructure to properly support research.

 

[Pharm Life]

This is a little off topic, but I hope spacedman doesn't mind. If you want a research residency, do you pretty much have to go to the northeast? I'm just wondering where else people go if they want to do anesthesia research but don't want to move somewhere like Boston, Philly or New York.

 

[lushmd]

Other strong research programs include: Wash U, UCSF, Pitt (still NE but not in one of the cities that you listed), Mayo.

 

[cchoukal]

nobody (in the us) publishes more research an anesthesiology or a/a than ucsf. the others aren't even close.

 

[Spacedman]

nobody (in the us) publishes more research an anesthesiology or a/a than ucsf. the others aren't even close.

how do you know this, other than by reputation? i'm actually finding it pretty difficult to determine how much residents publish at the more "academic" programs.

 

[cchoukal]

I know this (although, admittedly, the impression is somewhat subjective) because I read both journals every month and pay attn to where the authors from. it is difficult, though, to determine which authors, if any, are residents.

 

[Mista Suprane]

nobody (in the us) publishes more research an anesthesiology or a/a than ucsf. the others aren't even close.

true.

what's sad however, is the amount of research done in the field of anesthesiology overseas DWARFS the amount produced in the US.

 

[jennyboo]

nobody (in the us) publishes more research an anesthesiology or a/a than ucsf. the others aren't even close.

There is probably some degree of valid truth to this observation. The question to ask, though, is how much time residents truly get to do academic activities.

Most publications from all of these places are faculty driven. Most residents are not publishing machines, with few exceptions. You'll be very busy and spend most of your time and energy doing your job number one, which is learning clinical practice. The average resident will have the opportunity to do one or two small research projects and/or write or co-author one or two book chapters during their three years of residency, if they come upon the opportunity. You will probably find such opportunities at all of these places if you keep your eyes and ears open and volunteer yourself.

It took me about a year to find my feet and get beyond just going to work and going home at the end of the day. I was pretty overwhelmed as a CA1, and while I'm still overwhelmed and tired as a CA2, at some point I finally turned a new leaf and found myself able and motivated to seek out one or two additional academic projects. In your busy resident life you also have to choose projects smartly -- they need to be small (or you'll never finish them), and you want to pick well respected faculty who are also good mentors (avoid projects proposed by any faculty member who's considered to be full of $hit and not respected by their peers).

To differentiate among all of these programs in terms of resident research opportunities, ask the residents this question, keeping in mind that CA1s usually have the best hours and CA2s the worst at all hospitals: what time do you leave the hospital? Irrespective of how many papers the FACULTY publish at any give program, if residents go home earlier they have more time to do "extra" academic activities.

 

[cchoukal]

There is probably some degree of valid truth to this observation. The question to ask, though, is how much time residents truly get to do academic activities.

Most publications from all of these places are faculty driven. Most residents are not publishing machines, with few exceptions. You'll be very busy and spend most of your time and energy doing your job number one, which is learning clinical practice. The average resident will have the opportunity to do one or two small research projects and/or write or co-author one or two book chapters during their three years of residency, if they come upon the opportunity. You will probably find such opportunities at all of these places if you keep your eyes and ears open and volunteer yourself.

It took me about a year to find my feet and get beyond just going to work and going home at the end of the day. I was pretty overwhelmed as a CA1, and while I'm still overwhelmed and tired as a CA2, at some point I finally turned a new leaf and found myself able and motivated to seek out one or two additional academic projects. In your busy resident life you also have to choose projects smartly -- they need to be small (or you'll never finish them), and you want to pick well respected faculty who are also good mentors (avoid projects proposed by any faculty member who's considered to be full of $hit and not respected by their peers).

To differentiate among all of these programs in terms of resident research opportunities, ask the residents this question, keeping in mind that CA1s usually have the best hours and CA2s the worst at all hospitals: what time do you leave the hospital? Irrespective of how many papers the FACULTY publish at any give program, if residents go home earlier they have more time to do "extra" academic activities.

JB makes a really good point. The ABA "allows" 6 months of your CA years to be spent on research, but your department has to be willing to allow/support this as well. Programs like UCSF where residents are the primary work force might be less likely/able to have multiple residents taking this time away from the OR.

At my program, the U of Chicago, not too many residents are interested, but we usually have 2-3 every year who take 3 months to do some projects. It's probably not enough to get a big-time project off the ground, but it's enough to get your feet wet and start something you could carry into fellowship. As, for me, the dept has been super supportive of my research time and I've gotten a great deal of experience out of it.

I also have to echo Suprane's comments. Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, and Germany are kicking our butts in research productivity.

 

[jennyboo]

The ABA "allows" 6 months of your CA years to be spent on research, but your department has to be willing to allow/support this as well. Programs like UCSF where residents are the primary work force might be less likely/able to have multiple residents taking this time away from the OR.

Oh yeah, I forgot about this important detail.

My program does allow a small number of CA3s to do the full 6 months of research. This is not the "one or two academic projects" I was talking about in my above post -- it is tailored to the resident who already has focused research interests (most often, though not always, someone with a PhD). The majority of us don't actually feel qualified to apply for it since we may have had one or two academic projects but really do not have the focused research interests to make a strong proposal of taking six months off clinical time.

 

[QofQuimica]

A comment in the general residency forum about research track residencies piqued my interest. Most MD/PhDs go into path or IM/peds subspecialties, so unsurprisingly, most of the research track residencies are in those fields. But it looks like there is at least one program like this for anesthesiologists at Stanford. If I understand correctly, it's a five-year program (including a research fellowship at the end). Unfortunately, moving to CA is not realistic in my case, but it might help the OP, anyway.

Here are a few other programs I found that seem to be geared toward research but I think are still the normal four years:
Mount Sinai
Vanderbilt
Wash U (although this one requires a two year research fellowship afterward)
UCSF has some kind of new research residency track but not too many details on it.

There are also research fellowships that you could apply to do after residency:
Columbia
U Rochester (they mention that it's available, but I didn't find many details)

And several programs offer a six month research track like what jennyboo described. Some examples:
Duke
U Mich (look at pages 8-9)

 

[Spacedman]

A comment in the general residency forum about research track residencies piqued my interest. Most MD/PhDs go into path or IM/peds subspecialties, so unsurprisingly, most of the research track residencies are in those fields. But it looks like there is at least one program like this for anesthesiologists at Stanford. If I understand correctly, it's a five-year program (including a research fellowship at the end). Unfortunately, moving to CA is not realistic in my case, but it might help the OP, anyway.

Here are a few other programs I found that seem to be geared toward research but I think are still the normal four years:
Mount Sinai
Vanderbilt
Wash U (although this one requires a two year research fellowship afterward)
UCSF has some kind of new research residency track but not too many details on it.

There are also research fellowships that you could apply to do after residency:
Columbia
U Rochester (they mention that it's available, but I didn't find many details)

And several programs offer a six month research track like what jennyboo described. Some examples:
Duke
U Mich (look at pages 8-9)

there are a couple more programs with a formal research mechanism:

Penn - T32 mechanism, apply during CA1
Cornell - apply before residency. it seems like they give you most of PGY4 for research, and then 2 years as jr faculty with startup $ afterwards.
Hopkins - T32, apply as PGY4

i've looked into research-track residencies for both neurology & anesthesiology. what i've heard from neuro PDs (and i assume this goes for anes too) is to focus on clinical training during residency - there just isn't that much one can do research-wise (for bench science, 6 months is enough to get a taste, i can't imagine publishing anything worthwhile in that amount of time).

?from what i'm hearing, the best thing a program can do for you is arrange those 6 months as a block and launch you into a fellowship/jr faculty spot. that seems to be the goal of most of these stipend programs linked above... i guess i'll see on interview how many people have come out on the other side (btw, columbia posts a list of their apgar scholar graduates)

thanks for all of your input, glad to see there are some people interested! of course, i would love to find out about how "supportive" individual programs actually are, either here or by PM.

S

 

[GORP1]

Add YALE to the list.
VERY supportive of resident-initiated research.
Check out the Research Scholars Program:
http://anesthesiology.yale.edu/research/scholars.html
You get extra cash, time, and a very committed department.
Well worth a visit.

 

[DoubleD]

OHSU also has had a research program (4-years minus internship) for the past 4 years:

http://www.ohsu.edu/anesth/Education/OregonScholar/OSPIndex.htm

Bonus: Receiving a certificate of clinical resesarch from the university (not just the department). OHSU is 4th in the country for NIH funding for anesthesiology departments, as well as being in a FAB-U-LOUS City!!!

 

[cchoukal]

this months a/a has an ad for the new ucsf program. They describe it as aba and acgme approved and it's an intern year, 2 clinical anesthesia years and 2 supported research years.

 

[CaliDOC81]

In addition to this track they also have a track that allows one to do 6months of research in the CA-3 year. Roughly two residents do this per year.

 

[Gasbone]

Back to your original question, BWH is very ammenable to getting residents research time during their CA3 year. Some CA2's have done small case report type projects, but the way CA1 and CA2 years are set up, you have little time for bigger research projects.
During your CA3 year, you can take up to 6 months for research.. Everyone in the current CA3 class got the research months they requested and competition is usually not an issue. The one minor downside is that they do take call during their research months. Some residents have stayed on as staff and continued their research by working only as a part-time clinical staff.
Hope this helps.. PM me if you have any other specific questions. I am a current CA2 .

 

[pgy13]

Back to your original question, BWH is very ammenable to getting residents research time during their CA3 year. Some CA2's have done small case report type projects, but the way CA1 and CA2 years are set up, you have little time for bigger research projects.
During your CA3 year, you can take up to 6 months for research.. Everyone in the current CA3 class got the research months they requested and competition is usually not an issue. The one minor downside is that they do take call during their research months. Some residents have stayed on as staff and continued their research by working only as a part-time clinical staff.
Hope this helps.. PM me if you have any other specific questions. I am a current CA2 .

Residents are required by the ACGME to take call during their research months, at least for the standard "clinical scientist" track.

 

[cchoukal]

Residents are required by the ACGME to take call during their research months, at least for the standard "clinical scientist" track.

Apparently at my program, research residents are required to take MORE than the normal amount of call. That's the way it seemed, anyway...

 

[pgy13]

Apparently at my program, research residents are required to take MORE than the normal amount of call. That's the way it seemed, anyway...

That's unfortunate. We don't do that.