Research goals for applying

[FiveOClock]

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Hello all! I am an MS1 considering derm as a career, and I have a question about research. What is a good, realistic timeline of goals as far as research goes that will allow me to be competitive if i choose to apply? Right now I'll be doing derm basic research in the summer but my PI has asked me to work on a new review in the meantime. I know that according to the match stats, most applicants have "9 research experiences." Can anyone expound on this and provide me with a timeline of goals I should try to accomplish each year? Thanks!

 

[dermie1985]

Hello all! I am an MS1 considering derm as a career, and I have a question about research. What is a good, realistic timeline of goals as far as research goes that will allow me to be competitive if i choose to apply? Right now I'll be doing derm basic research in the summer but my PI has asked me to work on a new review in the meantime. I know that according to the match stats, most applicants have "9 research experiences." Can anyone expound on this and provide me with a timeline of goals I should try to accomplish each year? Thanks!

I'd actually consider doing something other than basic science. Yes, the adcoms all apparently *love* it and it won't hurt you by any means, but if you seriously want to research/academics, it's a pretty tough grant market to be going into basic science research without a PhD. The 2+2 programs (which are limited) are essentially designed as integrated post-docs into the residency program with guaranteed funding. Yes, there are some MD only's who do them, but I think they face an uphill battle if they want to be taken seriously by a Chairman (when finding a job) or a grant review board (when applying for R01's etc.) given there are usually a fair amount of new MD/PhD derm residency grads every year who will have a much better track record/paper trail than you likely will. Other options are clinical/epidemiology/translational research which is probably easier for the non-PhD MD to integrate into a successful research career (and residency training). Many of those sort of projects are either industry-sponsored and/or don't require a lot of $$$ to complete (i.e. population studies/epidemiology/surveys/etc.).

I think the 9 "research experiences" ...you actually mean publications, abstracts, and presentations. It is pretty easy to get something accepted to present at the AAD or SID, so whatever project you're working on for this summer....I'd make a quick abstract and think about presenting at either conference once you have some sort of result (even if it's an incomplete result). Otherwise, case reports, research abstracts, full articles, reviews, opinion pieces, etc. People inflate their resumes with frivolous things like "201X "My Medical School" Annual Med Student Research Symposium", so the "9" figure is probably slightly skewed and less impressive than it sounds, especially with the many all-start applicants who are outliers with >20 pubs/presentations/abstracts/etc which bump up the average.

Overall advice. Find a good mentor who actually cares about med students, will get you something published with your name on it/etc. You'll likely be using them as one of your big mentors/cheerleaders when you apply...and believe me, derm is all about having a connection or mentor that will help get you in someplace and bring your application to the front of a very impressive pile of applicants.

Get as much done/submitted before MS3 starts, because once clinics hit, your ability to work on research is going to plummet towards case reports/reviews if any.

 

[FiveOClock]

Well my research for the summer is already funded through my PIs grants for the project so its already well underway.
Since I'm almost done with MS1, I guess I've burned a lot of valuable time already and may be behind. I'll try to get started on my review right away and hopefully get a publication from my summer research. How would you guys recommend integrating research for a review into daily rigors of med school? It seems like setting aside an hour a day just won't yield very much in the way of content...

 

[PatsyStone]

Well my research for the summer is already funded through my PIs grants for the project so its already well underway.
Since I'm almost done with MS1, I guess I've burned a lot of valuable time already and may be behind. I'll try to get started on my review right away and hopefully get a publication from my summer research. How would you guys recommend integrating research for a review into daily rigors of med school? It seems like setting aside an hour a day just won't yield very much in the way of content...

There is no magical amount of research that will get you a derm spot. You need to have a track record of academic and personal excellence, and research is one piece of this puzzle. You may feel like you are behind (I don't think you are even close to wing behind), but just remember to try your best an wotk as hard as you can so that you don't have any regrets.

IMHO, the best way to start a review is to dedicate a weekend to it: start Friday afternoon and push, push, push through Sunday evening. This will give you the time and focus to really get a grasp on the literature and to create an outline of the paper.

 

[qvc804]

First, you haven't burned any time through MS-1. It is nowhere near expected that students start doing derm research beginning from the first semester of MS-1.

I don't recommend getting involved in a basic science project in Derm because it takes forever to publish. I'm assuming he thinks he won't have a publication out on that project by the end of the summer, so he threw a review at you to complete that can be finished relatively quickly.

Have you already fully committed to the basic science project in the summer with this faculty member? Depending on how high he is up the faculty ladder (i.e. Program Director or Chairman), you might not have a choice to back out now. In general, unless you're an MD/PhD or doing a year-long prestigious research program year that is basic science oriented like the HHMI-NIH Research Scholars (Cloister) Program, there is really no point in doing lab research, because unless you actually get a publication submitted, it doesn't really help you on the interview trail. Just having it down as a "research experience" in the meantime, doesn't really help a whole lot, when it comes to outside Derm programs.

According to Charting Outcomes: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf, the mean number of research experiences (altogether) is 4.3 and the mean number of abstracts, presentations, and publications (all added together, not just publications) is 9.5. As @dermie1985 mentioned, it's pretty easy to inflate the research experiences number with research experiences (w/dates) that you did research at your home program, summer after MS-1, and derm research electives.

These things come from the ERAS application under the "Experience Tab" and the "Publications Tab"
https://www.aamc.org/students/download/375002/data/worksheet2015.pdf

This is what qualifies as a "Publication" in the ERAS application:
Peer Reviewed Journal Articles/Abstracts (Published)
Peer Reviewed Journal Articles/Abstracts (Other than Published) - Statuses: Submitted, Provisional Accepted, Accepted or In-Press
Peer Reviewed Book Chapter
Scientific Monograph
Other Articles
Poster Presentation
Oral Presentation
Peer Reviewed Online Publication
Non Peer Reviewed Online Publication

As you can see even this section can be inflated since even a book chapter counts as a publication.

 

[dermie1985]

Agree with most of whats been said. Basic science projects take forever. I've done too many of them and had many of them fizzle out to nothing (i.e. no pub). A really good project takes about 2-3 years from start to finish to be completed and published. Compare this to a epidemiology project, where you could possible crank out an entire research project in a few weeks (including writing up a manuscript). If you're just picking up a post-doc's research project though, it's entirely possible you can publish a lot sooner and quicker depending on what point in the process you join in. I will say, it's super impressive if you can publish a good basic science project while in medical school.

I wouldn't find a new position. Just do your basic science project. I'm sure your PI does other types of research (clinical, translation, epi/population), so just make sure to ask to help out a bit with those projects too so you can at least get your name on some other papers in case your basic science project doesn't pan out.

 

[qvc804]

Agree with most of whats been said. Basic science projects take forever. I've done too many of them and had many of them fizzle out to nothing (i.e. no pub). A really good project takes about 2-3 years from start to finish to be completed and published. Compare this to a epidemiology project, where you could possible crank out an entire research project in a few weeks (including writing up a manuscript). If you're just picking up a post-doc's research project though, it's entirely possible you can publish a lot sooner and quicker depending on what point in the process you join in. I will say, it's super impressive if you can publish a good basic science project while in medical school.

I wouldn't find a new position. Just do your basic science project. I'm sure your PI does other types of research (clinical, translation, epi/population), so just make sure to ask to help out a bit with those projects too so you can at least get your name on some other papers in case your basic science project doesn't pan out.

Sorry I should have qualified, if you're getting lots of side pubs - case reports, reviews, book chapters, and other things in which you can get your name on something quickly, while you're doing this basic science project, then stick with it.

Just don't have high expectations to have a new basic science project submitted in 1 summer. Excellent advice @dermie1985.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

First, you haven't burned any time through MS-1. It is nowhere near expected that students start doing derm research beginning from the first semester of MS-1.

I don't recommend getting involved in a basic science project in Derm because it takes forever to publish. I'm assuming he thinks he won't have a publication out on that project by the end of the summer, so he threw a review at you to complete that can be finished relatively quickly.

Have you already fully committed to the basic science project in the summer with this faculty member? Depending on how high he is up the faculty ladder (i.e. Program Director or Chairman), you might not have a choice to back out now. In general, unless you're an MD/PhD or doing a year-long prestigious research program year that is basic science oriented like the HHMI-NIH Research Scholars (Cloister) Program, there is really no point in doing lab research, because unless you actually get a publication submitted, it doesn't really help you on the interview trail. Just having it down as a "research experience" in the meantime, doesn't really help a whole lot, when it comes to outside Derm programs.

According to Charting Outcomes: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf, the mean number of research experiences (altogether) is 4.3 and the mean number of abstracts, presentations, and publications (all added together, not just publications) is 9.5. As @dermie1985 mentioned, it's pretty easy to inflate the research experiences number with research experiences (w/dates) that you did research at your home program, summer after MS-1, and derm research electives.

These things come from the ERAS application under the "Experience Tab" and the "Publications Tab"
https://www.aamc.org/students/download/375002/data/worksheet2015.pdf

This is what qualifies as a "Publication" in the ERAS application:
Peer Reviewed Journal Articles/Abstracts (Published)
Peer Reviewed Journal Articles/Abstracts (Other than Published) - Statuses: Submitted, Provisional Accepted, Accepted or In-Press
Peer Reviewed Book Chapter
Scientific Monograph
Other Articles
Poster Presentation
Oral Presentation
Peer Reviewed Online Publication
Non Peer Reviewed Online Publication

As you can see even this section can be inflated since even a book chapter counts as a publication.

Wow thanks for posting this!!!! I wasn't aware that poster presentations counted as a pub. Of course, an article will carry more weight but that is nice to know that my article turned poster only project that I spent about a year on has something to show for it.