Research PI wants to meet, what should I ask or say?

[PreMade]

Someone finally emailed me back and the PI wants to meet to discuss what they are doing and what my role will be.

I would like to be involved as much as possible within my limitations considering I have no research experience.

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[Shirafune]

1. Depending on your level of study, the PI will expect different levels of understanding about his/her research. Try reading some papers before meeting the PI to at least get a general idea of the research, the big picture.
2. The PI will likely ask you about your future goals and what specific things you want to get out of this experience. It has been the general advice to NOT mention going to medical school. You might want to mention getting more familiar with bench research, which is a valid answer, even if it seems so unspecific.

 

[JingleChips]

Look up your PI online and read some of their publications (or just the abstracts if you can't understand them yet).

I would also personally be upfront and say that my ultimate goal would be to publish. then ask if publishing would be possible to do with the project/role you are assigned, and what kind of time commitment would it take to do so.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Concur strongly with Shirafune.

EDIT: @JingleChips I would not imply publication what so ever. One of the PIs that I interviewed with did not take that answer very well, even when I stated that as a potential goal.

 

[gtbROX]

Most important thing to do is to search that professor on pubmed and google scholar or find their publication list. Look for how frequently they publish, and then look for how frequently you see names of certain people in their lab.

When I was deciding between a few research labs I chose one that was more interesting despite the fact that the other labs published much more frequently. Needless to say, I have no publications and regret that choice.

Also, use ratemyprofessor to get a feel for the professor's personality and attitude. Also, find out which graduate students work in his/her lab and use facebook to find out if you have any mutual friends with them and ask them about their personality. I say this because a mean professor or graduate student can ruin your research experience and med school app in so many ways.

 

[JingleChips]

Concur strongly with Shirafune.

EDIT: @JingleChips I would not imply publication what so ever. One of the PIs that I interviewed did not take that answer very well, even when I stated that as a potential goal.

Different strokes for different folks.
Expressing interest in publishing shows that you are motivated, willing to work hard, and that you have a genuine desire to see a project through to completion rather than just showing up for 10hours a week or whatever. Granted I would not ask this if you are not actually serious / willing to put in the effort to publish.

 

[Shirafune]

Look up your PI online and read some of their publications (or just the abstracts if you can't understand them yet).

I would also personally be upfront and say that my ultimate goal would be to publish. then ask if publishing would be possible to do with the project/role you are assigned, and what kind of time commitment would it take to do so.

I would not ask about the chances of being published. Given that you have no experience, it's almost insulting to ask about what you can do to become published. If you really want to get published, show your PI and research mentor your motivation and work ethic. If you put in the time to understand what you're contributing to, the time to read the literature, the time to actually run all the experiments, the time to take care of your cell lines (or whatever other model you're using), you have done everything you can to succeed to lab. Publishing is a slow and painful process.

The manuscript I am authored on has been through two submissions with revisions in between, with the PI currently rewriting for submission to another journal. Not to mention other publishing drama from competing researchers. It has been at least 6 months since the paper has been "finished" and "ready for submission." If you come in thinking you'll get published, you'll likely be disappointed and frustrated.

When I was deciding between a few research labs I chose one that was more interesting despite the fact that the other labs published much more frequently. Needless to say, I have no publications and regret that choice.

Also, use ratemyprofessor to get a feel for the professor's personality and attitude. Also, find out which graduate students work in his/her lab and use facebook to find out if you have any mutual friends with them and ask them about their personality. I say this because a mean professor or graduate student can ruin your research experience and med school app in so many ways.

Not sure OP has the luxury of choosing from multiple opportunities. I am certainly not going to dig into my PI's personality to decide if I want to LEARN from him/her and GROW in the environment. Let his credentials and publication record back that up. Yes, a good mentor is a huge boost to your first experience, but if you are truly determined to become published, it should take more than a bad mentor to ruin that ambition. Most PIs have had their fair share of nonexistent, mean mentors. They are faculty members now because of their talent AND their work ethic.

And just from personal experience, I hate seeing other undergrads stroll into a lab with the intent to get their own project/publication. By the third month, most of them haven't even read 5 papers and are stuck doing ONE thing over and over.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Different strokes for different folks.
Expressing interest in publishing shows that you are motivated, willing to work hard, and that you have a genuine desire to see a project through to completion rather than just showing up for 10hours a week or whatever. Granted I would not ask this if you are not actually serious / willing to put in the effort to publish.

My question to you is did you ask a potential PI this and if so how did he or she take it?

You don't need to gun for a publication to work hard. You just need to really enjoy the research you want to work on and show you are putting in effort for the learning experience. The PI flat out told me, " Don't expect to publish in one year let alone two years. Sometimes it may take four years to publish. You need to have a goal you are passionate about and are willing to put your all into." He was right about that. I admit he was a bit too idealist about what that goal should be (I wanted to do research as a learning experience but he wanted more than that as a volunteer research), but I was in the wrong for implying publication as a goal. I did do research with another PI for sometime, and then had a review article published a year and a half later. However, I still think that PI was right about what he said. Publication as a goal is the wrong reason to do research and it is sad to see this obsessive nature amongst pre-medical student and medical students (I understand in the case of medical students but still). In the end, you should be doing it for the enjoyment of the project, whether it yields a result or not.

 

[gtbROX]

Not sure OP has the luxury of choosing from multiple opportunities. I am certainly not going to dig into my PI's personality to decide if I want to LEARN from him/her and GROW in the environment. Let his credentials and publication record back that up. Yes, a good mentor is a huge boost to your first experience, but if you are truly determined to become published, it should take more than a bad mentor to ruin that ambition. Most PIs have had their fair share of nonexistent, mean mentors. They are faculty members now because of their talent AND their work ethic.

Your PI's personality is a big indicator of whether you will do well at the research or not. Some PI's and grad students' will overwork their undergraduate students and decide not to put their names on the publications. Others don't trust their undergraduate students enough to run experiments. In any case, a bad PI/grad student can make it so that students don't end up learning. If a student wants to make a commitment to a certain lab, he/she should be sure that the people of that lab are also committed to his/her learning.

And just from personal experience, I hate seeing other undergrads stroll into a lab with the intent to get their own project/publication. By the third month, most of them haven't even read 5 papers and are stuck doing ONE thing over and over.

Entering a lab with the intent to get a publication has no correlation to the productivity or education of the student. It depends on the student's personality and attitude towards the research experience. However, the question of whether that student gets a publication depends on more, much much more, than just their attitude towards the research experience. In the end, PI's and grad students have all the control. Go on grad student forums and see how the approach the topic of choosing a PI.

 

[JingleChips]

I would not ask about the chances of being published. Given that you have no experience, it's almost insulting to ask about what you can do to become published. If you really want to get published, show your PI and research mentor your motivation and work ethic. If you put in the time to understand what you're contributing to, the time to read the literature, the time to actually run all the experiments, the time to take care of your cell lines (or whatever other model you're using), you have done everything you can to succeed to lab. Publishing is a slow and painful process.

The manuscript I am authored on has been through two submissions with revisions in between, with the PI currently rewriting for submission to another journal. Not to mention other publishing drama from competing researchers. It has been at least 6 months since the paper has been "finished" and "ready for submission." If you come in thinking you'll get published, you'll likely be disappointed and frustrated.



Not sure OP has the luxury of choosing from multiple opportunities. I am certainly not going to dig into my PI's personality to decide if I want to LEARN from him/her and GROW in the environment. Let his credentials and publication record back that up. Yes, a good mentor is a huge boost to your first experience, but if you are truly determined to become published, it should take more than a bad mentor to ruin that ambition. Most PIs have had their fair share of nonexistent, mean mentors. They are faculty members now because of their talent AND their work ethic.

And just from personal experience, I hate seeing other undergrads stroll into a lab with the intent to get their own project/publication. By the third month, most of them haven't even read 5 papers and are stuck doing ONE thing over and over.

I guess I didn't really take in the perspective of the OP. In undergrad I worked in a lab for 2 years (close to 2k hours) and didn't publish. I joined my group at the start of my PI's first year, and because of that no projects were really established and I had no chance to publish - our group's first paper was sent out for review 2 months before I graduated and was basically entirely the work of our post doc. I had multiple friends who joined different, well established groups the same time or after me who successfully published. I never said publishing was easy, but if you join an established group that churns out publications on the reg and you are willing to put in the time, expecting to have a 4th author publication before graduation isn't too farfetched (at least at my undergrad).

In my case, I regretted not asking my PI if there was any kind of realistic shot of me publishing. As someone with this kind of experience/frustration, I fully plan on being upfront with potential advisors during med school about my goals. You are probably right that someone with no experience should not ask that kind of question 🙂

 

[Aerus]

1) DO read the lab's papers to get a big picture idea on what research they do.

2) Do NOT say that you want to publish unless they ask you if you would be interested. As someone said, it is insulting to have an undergrad come into an interview asking about being published when they have no idea how difficult it is to do so in basic science.

3) AVOID mentioning that you are premed. If you are asked about general career goals, mention something vague but true, like "I want a career in science so I am seeing if a career in research is a potential option." That way, you come off as interested but still do not exclude yourself from asking for letters of recommendation.

4) DO show up on time and take your time commitments seriously, especially in your first few weeks. Many PI's aren't afraid of letting go a new undergrad in the beginning if they see trouble signs.

 

[Shirafune]

Your PI's personality is a big indicator of whether you will do well at the research or not. Some PI's and grad students' will overwork their undergraduate students and decide not to put their names on the publications. Others don't trust their undergraduate students enough to run experiments. In any case, a bad PI/grad student can make it so that students don't end up learning. If a student wants to make a commitment to a certain lab, he/she should be sure that the people of that lab are also committed to his/her learning.



Entering a lab with the intent to get a publication has no correlation to the productivity or education of the student. It depends on the student's personality and attitude towards the research experience. However, the question of whether that student gets a publication depends on more, much much more, than just their attitude towards the research experience. In the end, PI's and grad students have all the control. Go on grad student forums and see how the approach the topic of choosing a PI.

Maybe it's just me, but an undergrad with no useful contribution to a paper, let alone any wet lab skills, should not have authorship at the top of his list. I still think that those who go into research looking for a publication have fundamentally different outlooks on research, even if their work ethic is comparable. And if the intent to publish has nothing to do with productivity and if PIs/grad students have all the control, then I would caution even more to mention trying to be published. Again, if you put all your effort in, even if you do not become published, the experience has hopefully been worth it. I don't think most faculty members are evil enough to keep a super productive undergrad for 3 years and publish said student's data multiple times without giving him authorship. That just seems like pure academic dishonesty.

The aims of a grad student are so different from an undergrad's that I wouldn't even compare "checklists" for PIs.

 

[IslandStyle808]

2) Do NOT say that you want to publish unless they ask you if you would be interested. As someone said, it is insulting to have an undergrad come into an interview asking about being published when they have no idea how difficult it is to do so in basic science.

Aerus pretty much hit the nail on the head with this post. To add insult to injury about my former post, I actually had a graduate degree at the time. If a PI won't tolerate it from a graduate student, he sure as heck won't tolerate it from an undergrad student.

And if the intent to publish has nothing to do with productivity and if PIs/grad students have all the control, then I would caution even more to mention trying to be published. Again, if you put all your effort in, even if you do not become published, the experience has hopefully been worth it. I don't think most faculty members are evil enough to keep a super productive undergrad for 3 years and publish said student's data multiple times without giving him authorship. That just seems like pure academic dishonesty.

The aims of a grad student are so different from an undergrad's that I wouldn't even compare "checklists" for PIs.

I still agree with you Shirafune because it should be your passions for that research that drives you and not the publication (that more of a byproduct of your effort).

I suggest all people who are interested in research take an ethics course about it. Not just to learn right and wrong in research, but to understand the gray areas in working with PIs and graduate students. The way publication normally works in academia is that the person who puts in intellectual work will be the one to have their name in the authorship. For example, if the undergrad is just pipetting and just replicating cells redundantly in the lab throughout the project, he or she would not be considered for authorship. This is because the tasks doesn't involve complex thinking. However, if the student was in charge of writing the paper or wrote some portions of it, then he or she would be considered for authorship.

There was a professor in my research ethics class who talked about an undergraduate student, who did simple tasks around the lab and was considering him for authorship. He then sat down with the student to ask him about the project he was working with and what it entailed. The student could not give him a clearcut answer as to the details of the project and sadly was not give authorship. He did do the work, but intellectually, he did not grasp what he was doing it for. This is how authorship on a paper usually works. I will admit there are PIs who are really generous with authorship and will give it to the undergrad that was doing nothing but redundant tasks.

If people are still adamant about publication, then I suggest doing the following. First, go and do a project that interests you. You may be working with a graduate student or the PI will give you a project if he or she thinks you are capable enough (I don't think I have seen this at the undergrad level). Then when the project is underway (this should be a month into the research), you can discuss with your PI about publishing. There are times where you will need to do this up front and this will prevent any turmoil from happening (any research ethics class will tell you this). However, again, this should not be discussed during the time you are interviewing for a lab position but after. This discussion of authorship will give you an idea of your role in the lab and what to expect at the end of the experience (the PI may say no you won't have authorship, and you will have to be fine with that). If you don't care about authorship, then do not go into this talk. Most PIs don't mind having this talk, but you don't want to risk having issues with your PI if you don't care about publication at all.

 

[Long Way to Go]

I suggest all people who are interested in research take an ethics course about it. Not just to learn right and wrong in research, but to understand the gray areas in working with PIs and graduate students. The way publication normally works in academia is that the person who puts in intellectual work will be the one to have their name in the authorship. For example, if the undergrad is just pipetting and just replicating cells redundantly in the lab throughout the project, he or she would not be considered for authorship. This is because the tasks doesn't involve complex thinking. However, if the student was in charge of writing the paper or wrote some portions of it, then he or she would be considered for authorship.

Well-stated.

The [International Committee of Medical Journal Editors] recommends that authorship be based on the following 4 criteria:

• Substantial contributions to the conception or design of the work; or the acquisition, analysis, or interpretation of data for the work; AND
• Drafting the work or revising it critically for important intellectual content; AND
• Final approval of the version to be published; AND
• Agreement to be accountable for all aspects of the work in ensuring that questions related to the accuracy or integrity of any part of the work are appropriately investigated and resolved.

I didn't really understand what #1 and #2 until I was well over a year into my first independent project. I had probably put hundreds of hours of work into it, and I certainly met all of the ICMJE criteria, but I really wasn't sure why a couple of people I had never met were being added to the title page by my PI. Was it for a political reason? Did my PI just want to add a couple of senior authors on the list to make the paper look more impressive? I'm not going to lie, the thought did cross my mind. But it was only after I started sitting in on conference calls, reading old correspondence and minutes, and reading the history of the grant submission did I really realize how much effort had been put into my project before I had ever heard of the lab, and here I was thinking that I would be starting from scratch.

 

[camelinantartica]

just show up and be yourself. things should fall into place that way.

 

[gtbROX]

Maybe it's just me, but an undergrad with no useful contribution to a paper, let alone any wet lab skills, should not have authorship at the top of his list. I still think that those who go into research looking for a publication have fundamentally different outlooks on research, even if their work ethic is comparable. And if the intent to publish has nothing to do with productivity and if PIs/grad students have all the control, then I would caution even more to mention trying to be published. Again, if you put all your effort in, even if you do not become published, the experience has hopefully been worth it. I don't think most faculty members are evil enough to keep a super productive undergrad for 3 years and publish said student's data multiple times without giving him authorship. That just seems like pure academic dishonesty.

The aims of a grad student are so different from an undergrad's that I wouldn't even compare "checklists" for PIs.

Well, I still argue that an undergrad should enter a lab with the intent of pursuing a publication through it. These days, graduate and medical schools are so competitive that you need all the academic honors and scholastic achievements you can get. Most of my peers that went into research wanting a publication, assuming they weren't lazy and had good PIs, ended up doing more than just pipetting. And even if they did not get publications, they went to conferences and got to speak at various symposiums.

To restate a point, you can work as hard as possible, and you should, but your PI and graduate students hold all the cards. That is why I make a point of finding out who you're working with.

 

[Aerus]

Well, I still argue that an undergrad should enter a lab with the intent of pursuing a publication through it. These days, graduate and medical schools are so competitive that you need all the academic honors and scholastic achievements you can get. Most of my peers that went into research wanting a publication, assuming they weren't lazy and had good PIs, ended up doing more than just pipetting. And even if they did not get publications, they went to conferences and got to speak at various symposiums.

To restate a point, you can work as hard as possible, and you should, but your PI and graduate students hold all the cards. That is why I make a point of finding out who you're working with.

Sure, if you did tons of research and presented at conferences in high school or you have a guaranteed research position through a merit based scholarship, perhaps you can do that. OP has ONE chance to do research since he already said that he emailed tons of people and finally got ONE reply. I don't think possibly insulting the PI is something he can afford to do.

Undergrads should come into a lab with an intent to LEARN. This is a basic science lab and getting published can be incredibly difficult for even grad students. It's just a bad attitude to march in as an undergrad with NO experience whatsoever to simply expect to be published.

 

[gtbROX]

Sure, if you did tons of research and presented at conferences in high school or you have a guaranteed research position through a merit based scholarship, perhaps you can do that. OP has ONE chance to do research since he already said that he emailed tons of people and finally got ONE reply. I don't think possibly insulting the PI is something he can afford to do.

Undergrads should come into a lab with an intent to LEARN. This is a basic science lab and getting published can be incredibly difficult for even grad students. It's just a bad attitude to march in as an undergrad with NO experience whatsoever to simply expect to be published.

It depends on what kind of research you're doing. Research in synthetic chemistry publishes prolifically and clinical research is slower. I know many undergraduates in different fields that have gotten published even though they had no previous research experience. Nothing I've suggested involves insulting the PI. I suggest that he research the professor and nature of the lab to avoid a bad experience. Having a bad research experience is not better than having no research experience. If you're going to waste many hours going to a lab not geared towards your learning, you might as well spend those hours boosting another area of your application.

 

[Aerus]

It depends on what kind of research you're doing. Research in synthetic chemistry publishes prolifically and clinical research is slower. I know many undergraduates in different fields that have gotten published even though they had no previous research experience. Nothing I've suggested involves insulting the PI. I suggest that he research the professor and nature of the lab to avoid a bad experience. Having a bad research experience is not better than having no research experience. If you're going to waste many hours going to a lab not geared towards your learning, you might as well spend those hours boosting another area of your application.

I'm not saying don't aim to be published, but don't say it upfront to the PI. It IS rude. You should definitely ask "What role will I be playing in the lab? What kind of learning experience should I expect?" so that you aren't just cleaning glassware or autoclaving. But asking "Will I be published?" is just rude.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm not saying don't aim to be published, but don't say it upfront to the PI. It IS rude. You should definitely ask "What role will I be playing in the lab? What kind of learning experience should I expect?" so that you aren't just cleaning glassware or autoclaving. But asking "Will I be published?" is just rude.

Bingo. I was about to say the same thing.

 

[gtbROX]

I'm not saying don't aim to be published, but don't say it upfront to the PI. It IS rude. You should definitely ask "What role will I be playing in the lab? What kind of learning experience should I expect?" so that you aren't just cleaning glassware or autoclaving. But asking "Will I be published?" is just rude.

If you go through my posts, I never said that a student should tell a professor that his aim is to get published. I agree that professors don't like that which is why I suggested that the OP searches the professor online to find out his/her frequency of publication. My points are that a student should aim to get published and find out the personalities of the professor and graduate students before joining. In the end, everyone is going to have a different opinion about how to go about research. I gave advice that I would give myself if I could go back in time.

 

[PreMade]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm going to meet with another research person and see which one I like in terms of the role I will have.

Also, for the record I'm not looking to be published. I wanted to do research because I'm interested in the research being conducted and I would like to learn the techniques and aspects of doing research, which would help me in the future if I plan to do research. If I feel comfortable with myself and the PI has faith in me then when the opportunity present itself I will pursue it.

Just to do research to have something published is wrong and a waste of time for me when I'm not interested in that research or I wasn't a contributing factor in terms of the thought process.

I don't have a clue about going about research and I can't come up with one idea to do research about. That's why I'm going to learn lab techniques and being expose to it will give me some ideas and when I feel I'm ready I will run my own.

Once again, thanks for the feedback.