Research questions ( time to move on, how to be on poster?)

[browneyes124]

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Hey guys so I've been doing research this semester and plan to continue in research till I graduate. I have a few questions through. I would love the opportunity to be on a poster or present during a presentation. What are some ways I could go about doing this? It seems like most of the posters are done by the grad students but I was talking to another professor and he said undergrads doing posters are very common. Also I like the area of study I am in but it is different then what I thought it was going to be and I'm not so into it (right now) that I think I'd want to create my own thesis or research in it. Does this mean I should look at other labs or just stick it out? I have talked to some other professors and they say that they are very open to letting undergrad publish with them and be on posters, while in my lab it seems that most of the focus is on the grad students which i totally understand. My main goal out of research is to try to move up in i because I think I want to do a dual grad degree. So given all of this do you think I should move on to another lab or just stick it out for one more semester to see how it goes?
There is a professor I really like on campus that's doing research and hes a really laid back guy and communicates alot with his students but I feel like the Dr. Im doing research for is only there for the lab meetings and it is very hard to get in contact with him if you have any questions/concerns. He always forwards everything to his assistant so because of this i feel like it might be a little harder to talk with him about doing a poster or being more involved.
I am in a behavioral Neuroscience lab and so far aside from lab meetings I am only in lab for 3 hours max. a week. I dont know if this is normal or to low because I have talk to other people and they said they normally do a minimum of 6 hours aside from meetings. Do you think I should talk to him or just stick it out till next semester and if i'm still not feeling it move on?
Thanks!
Also another thing that is a bit discouraging is that for the first year your in his lab all you can do are rat injections. A girl that has been there since August told me that she is still doing injections because you aren't permitted to do anything else until at LEAST your first year is up. This also has me considering moving on because I hear from alot of my peers that are very involved in labs even in there first semester.

 

[Moko]

I would love the opportunity to be on a poster or present during a presentation. What are some ways I could go about doing this? ... do you think I should move on to another lab or just stick it out for one more semester to see how it goes? the Dr. Im doing research for is only there for the lab meetings and it is very hard to get in contact with him if you have any questions/concerns. He always forwards everything to his assistant so because of this i feel like it might be a little harder to talk with him about doing a poster or being more involved. ... aside from lab meetings I am only in lab for 3 hours max. a week. ... Do you think I should talk to him or just stick it out till next semester and if i'm still not feeling it move on? ... Also another thing that is a bit discouraging is that for the first year your in his lab all you can do are rat injections. ... I hear from alot of my peers that are very involved in labs even in there first semester.

My thoughts:
1) If you want to present or publish, you need to commit more time to the lab. It's tough/impossible to obtain any meaningful results from just 3 hours per week. And honestly, I wouldn't entrust any major role to someone who's barely in the lab.
2) Find the best learning environment for you. Questions to ask yourself: i) Do you have any research mentors in the lab (e.g. PhD students, post-docs, etc.) ? ii) Does your PI know the more senior undergrads working with him? iii) Have prior students received very strong LORs from this PI? iv) Are you interested in this lab's research? If the answers are mostly 'no' then you should strongly consider finding another lab that will mentor you and help improve your application. Just because he is a great mentor to graduate students doesn't mean he's a great mentor for undergrads. You mentioned talking with other professors (who, quite frankly, sound like better learning opportunities from what you described). Would any of them be open to your joining their lab?
3) Directly ask your PI to be more involved in the research process. You never know until you actually ask! Are there any specific projects on the horizon that you could be part of? Emphasize that you are willing to learn and put in the time. Make sure that your current position is not a dead-end.
4) Don't compare yourself to your peers. Doing so rarely ever accomplishes anything (apart from stoking unnecessary anxiety). It sounds like you're finishing your freshman or sophomore year (?). Either way, there's still plenty of time to do meaningful research.

If after talking with your PI and other professors you decide to go to another lab, be sure to give proper notice as to not burn any bridges! Good luck!

 

[browneyes124]

I'm a

My thoughts:
1) If you want to present or publish, you need to commit more time to the lab. It's tough/impossible to obtain any meaningful results from just 3 hours per week. And honestly, I wouldn't entrust any major role to someone who's barely in the lab.
2) Find the best learning environment for you. Questions to ask yourself: i) Do you have any research mentors in the lab (e.g. PhD students, post-docs, etc.) ? ii) Does your PI know the more senior undergrads working with him? iii) Have prior students received very strong LORs from this PI? iv) Are you interested in this lab's research? If the answers are mostly 'no' then you should strongly consider finding another lab that will mentor you and help improve your application. Just because he is a great mentor to graduate students doesn't mean he's a great mentor for undergrads. You mentioned talking with other professors (who, quite frankly, sound like better learning opportunities from what you described). Would any of them be open to your joining their lab?
3) Directly ask your PI to be more involved in the research process. You never know until you actually ask! Are there any specific projects on the horizon that you could be part of? Emphasize that you are willing to learn and put in the time. Make sure that your current position is not a dead-end.
4) Don't compare yourself to your peers. Doing so rarely ever accomplishes anything (apart from stoking unnecessary anxiety). It sounds like you're finishing your freshman or sophomore year (?). Either way, there's still plenty of time to do meaningful research.

If after talking with your PI and other professors you decide to go to another lab, be sure to give proper notice as to not burn any bridges! Good luck!

I'm a sophomore. Well right now I have 0 hours in lab because I was suppose to be on the schedule at the beginning of this month but the hospital changed some procedures do they said that's why it was taking more time. I had to bug the lab assistant for 2 weeks until finally she was like I think you'll be able to be on the schedule for next week and that's still a huge maybe. I've been in this lab since febuary and I have not been able to physically do anything yet and I know that it didn't take this long for anyone else in the lab to get started. At most it's only suppose to take 2 weeks but it's been almost 2 months. And I got the 3 hours from a friend that's also in the lab because she's been there since August but she's just doing injections which are from 9-10 am. And there is a schedule that the lab assistant makes each week so you can only physically do what you are assigned because everyone is assigned different things. You can come in and watch some other procedures being done but if it's your first year in lab all you can basically do on your own is injections.
My school has a thing called independent study. It's a class that's designed for research so every semester there are different professors that post their projects and any openings. The professor that I talked about is really down to earth and very concerned with helping students not only in his classes but in general. I look up to him a lot and have gotten advice from him on many matters. I think that he would be a really good mentor.
Do you think I should maybe take 1 hour of independent study which is equivalent to 3 hours in the lab a week while having this this other lab and see which one I like between or to just pick 1 ?

 

[MaxPlancker]

The way your lab operates does not sound like it is the best environment for growth as an undergrad. I would perhaps investigate other options. However, there are some misconceptions that you may hold.

1) The topic of research is not very important. You do not have to do research in whatever field you are interested in; your interests will likely change before you settle later in your career. What you should really be looking for in a lab is a solid environment for personal growth. Regardless of whether you study a protein believed to be responsible for the formation of memories, a protein essential to cancer progression, or a protein that determines how well grass grows, you will likely be evaluating that protein in similar ways via Westerns, gel filtration, CD, etc. To the visible eye, it will literally be no different; you will just work with a clear solution or powder. That being said, it is helpful to be somewhat interested in the general area (i.e. don't go into computer science if you hate math/computers or neuroscience if you hate animals). People even do PhDs in labs whose topics they have no intention of pursuing further after graduating because your goal during training is to learn. Regardless of topic and specific methodologies, you learn the same thing--how to be a good scientist.
2) The point of posters and other media is not to just do them because everyone else does them or for your CV. It's to disseminate what you've been working on. You must first have something to talk about to have a poster; this requires a good time commitment in lab. In basic science labs, it is really, truly difficult to get meaningful data with under 10 hrs/wk particularly as a beginner with no previous experience/skills. To give you an idea, undergrads may not even get a poster with 40 hrs/week for 12 weeks. It takes a lot of work and some luck. Seriously reconsider how much time you can devote to research; if you can only devote 3, people will not take you seriously and won't want to train you because they get nothing out of training you. You need to work at least 10-15 hours if you want your mentor to really get behind you, IMO.
3) Developing your own thesis/research topic is not as easy as it sounds. You really can't without knowing a lot of the background literature and the methodology to accomplish such a project. I would learn the ropes before going for a thesis etc.

I personally think smaller labs with a more hands on PI is beneficial to undergrads. The most important thing is to make sure you are constantly learning. If you're doing experiments for your boss or grad student/whoever and still learning, then that's good. If you keep doing experiments and handing over the data without analysing it or continue to stick to the same experiment far after learning it, you are being used.

Goodluck.

 

[browneyes124]

The way your lab operates does not sound like it is the best environment for growth as an undergrad. I would perhaps investigate other options. However, there are some misconceptions that you may hold.

1) The topic of research is not very important. You do not have to do research in whatever field you are interested in; your interests will likely change before you settle later in your career. What you should really be looking for in a lab is a solid environment for personal growth. Regardless of whether you study a protein believed to be responsible for the formation of memories, a protein essential to cancer progression, or a protein that determines how well grass grows, you will likely be evaluating that protein in similar ways via Westerns, gel filtration, CD, etc. To the visible eye, it will literally be no different; you will just work with a clear solution or powder. That being said, it is helpful to be somewhat interested in the general area (i.e. don't go into computer science if you hate math/computers or neuroscience if you hate animals). People even do PhDs in labs whose topics they have no intention of pursuing further after graduating because your goal during training is to learn. Regardless of topic and specific methodologies, you learn the same thing--how to be a good scientist.
2) The point of posters and other media is not to just do them because everyone else does them or for your CV. It's to disseminate what you've been working on. You must first have something to talk about to have a poster; this requires a good time commitment in lab. In basic science labs, it is really, truly difficult to get meaningful data with under 10 hrs/wk particularly as a beginner with no previous experience/skills. To give you an idea, undergrads may not even get a poster with 40 hrs/week for 12 weeks. It takes a lot of work and some luck. Seriously reconsider how much time you can devote to research; if you can only devote 3, people will not take you seriously and won't want to train you because they get nothing out of training you. You need to work at least 10-15 hours if you want your mentor to really get behind you, IMO.
3) Developing your own thesis/research topic is not as easy as it sounds. You really can't without knowing a lot of the background literature and the methodology to accomplish such a project. I would learn the ropes before going for a thesis etc.

I personally think smaller labs with a more hands on PI is beneficial to undergrads. The most important thing is to make sure you are constantly learning. If you're doing experiments for your boss or grad student/whoever and still learning, then that's good. If you keep doing experiments and handing over the data without analysing it or continue to stick to the same experiment far after learning it, you are being used.

Goodluck.

The primary reason I want to do research is to know if I want to do a md solely or a dual degree. Is it common for the PI to not really get in touch with students and to have basically forward all communication with his assistant? Like it seems like the only person he really talks to after the lab meetings are the 2 grade students in the lab. I mean I understand that they have deadlines coming up but from my understanding this is the norm.
I don't know if I'm not actually interested in the research in the field or if I'm just so frustrated about not getting any lab time for almost 2 months.
How should you go about asking your PI if I can work on a poster with him or be more involved in lab?

 

[Lucca]

The primary reason I want to do research is to know if I want to do a md solely or a dual degree. Is it common for the PI to not really get in touch with students and to have basically forward all communication with his assistant? Like it seems like the only person he really talks to after the lab meetings are the 2 grade students in the lab. I mean I understand that they have deadlines coming up but from my understanding this is the norm.
I don't know if I'm not actually interested in the research in the field or if I'm just so frustrated about not getting any lab time for almost 2 months.
How should you go about asking your PI if I can work on a poster with him or be more involved in lab?

This sounds like a bad lab environment for an undergraduate. You should be able to communicate with your PI primarily through face time. Not the app, but actual, real face time. Get out and find a new lab, seriously. It is not worth staying in a lab where you are not given any opportunities or opportunities for mentorship.

As to getting on a poster, just keep and eye/ear out on campus for conferences happening for undergrads at your institution and elsewhere and just apply to them with your research topic when the time comes.

 

[MaxPlancker]

The primary reason I want to do research is to know if I want to do a md solely or a dual degree. Is it common for the PI to not really get in touch with students and to have basically forward all communication with his assistant? Like it seems like the only person he really talks to after the lab meetings are the 2 grade students in the lab. I mean I understand that they have deadlines coming up but from my understanding this is the norm.
I don't know if I'm not actually interested in the research in the field or if I'm just so frustrated about not getting any lab time for almost 2 months.
How should you go about asking your PI if I can work on a poster with him or be more involved in lab?

Many of the bigger labs have PIs that are extremely busy and these tend to be more hands-off. The PIs that are just starting out as well as small labs (assistant, associate) tend to be more hands-on. There are always exceptions…

If you simply want to test the waters, be aware that your undergraduate perception of research will be somewhat skewed for several reasons.
1) It really is a hit or miss. Just like you have had a subpar experience with your lab, I've had friends that turned out to hate research because of the lab environments. They don't hate research itself, but they think they do because the environment is so unhealthy. Furthermore, you might not like specific projects or experiments etc.
2) Your undergrad experience will not be much indicator as to your PhD experience nor your future experience as a PI etc. Even if you love being at the bench and conducting experiments as an undergrad, as a PI much of your job rests on coming up with new ideas and applying for funding (grants). You will usually be quite removed from doing the actual science in most cases (at least for basic science labs).

My recommendation if you want to get a feel for whether research is right for you or not is to find a small hands-on lab they will really mentor you. First, see if you like doing science then worry about the rest later.

If you want to stick it out in that lab, be upfront about what your expectations are as well as your mentor's. If he doesn't support you, then leave. But if I were you, it really sounds like that lab doesn't give a sht about undergrads.

 

[JustAPhD]

While not toxic, it sounds like the lab you're currently in is not the best environment for an undergrad to be in (just echoing Lucca here). I'm a big fan of open communication in a lab so what I would do before you commit to leaving is to talk to the PI about what you want to do and if this is possible in his lab. If not, then at least your PI knows why you are leaving. However, if the PI is receptive to you wanting to do more, be prepared to spend a lot more than three hours/week in there.

Good news is that you are only a sophomore so there is plenty of time for you.

 

[ed*26]

Only you can tell what kind of lab environment you will do best in.

I'll echo others and say your lab doesn't seem to make it easy for undergraduates to get much done. The year requirement of doing rat injections is suspicious since there are researchers who view undergrads as work drones. When you're at a med school interview and they're asking about your research, they're looking for you to have had a meaningful experience from which you grew as a person and scientist. "Sticking it out" in a lab you're unhappy with with not give you that experience.

I do wonder how much you've been putting yourself out there in the lab. You keep making excuses that your mentor seems more interested in the grad students, the grad students have deadlines and projects, etc. All of this is valid, but if you want to have a presence in your lab then you need to make one for yourself. In your mentor's eyes, you may be just another undergrad putting in minimal effort. My PI travels a LOT and thus can be difficult to get direct answers from, but I keep at it until I get what I need.

It sounds like you need a mentor who will give you more attention and the confidence to demand some of that attention. If you feel like you don't like your current research in practice, aren't getting enough attention from your mentor, and overall aren't getting anything out of the experience then by all means switch. It seems like you have some promising leads for other labs that may afford you the experience you're looking for.

It will be very difficult to obtain meaningful and poster-worthy research at 3 hrs/wk. I recommend closer to 10-15, or working part/full time over the summer.

 

[browneyes124]

Only you can tell what kind of lab environment you will do best in.

I'll echo others and say your lab doesn't seem to make it easy for undergraduates to get much done. The year requirement of doing rat injections is suspicious since there are researchers who view undergrads as work drones. When you're at a med school interview and they're asking about your research, they're looking for you to have had a meaningful experience from which you grew as a person and scientist. "Sticking it out" in a lab you're unhappy with with not give you that experience.

I do wonder how much you've been putting yourself out there in the lab. You keep making excuses that your mentor seems more interested in the grad students, the grad students have deadlines and projects, etc. All of this is valid, but if you want to have a presence in your lab then you need to make one for yourself. In your mentor's eyes, you may be just another undergrad putting in minimal effort. My PI travels a LOT and thus can be difficult to get direct answers from, but I keep at it until I get what I need.

It sounds like you need a mentor who will give you more attention and the confidence to demand some of that attention. If you feel like you don't like your current research in practice, aren't getting enough attention from your mentor, and overall aren't getting anything out of the experience then by all means switch. It seems like you have some promising leads for other labs that may afford you the experience you're looking for.

It will be very difficult to obtain meaningful and poster-worthy research at 3 hrs/wk. I recommend closer to 10-15, or working part/full time over the summer.

See the problem is I'm not getting any lab time now because I'm not authorized to be on the schedule yet. A process that should have taken no more then 2 week has taken almost 2 months and that's with me constantly bugging them with emails about if all the paper work went through and when I could be added on the schedule. So it's not much of an exaggeration when I say that the more grad students get more attention. I can't try to be more involved when I'm not involved now period. I applied in febuary and there's only April left in this semester and aside from weekly meetings I have not been permitted to work hands on in the lab. This is a big reason I am considering switching because I think it's a bit unreasonable to have gone basically a whole semester with no hands on experience.

 

[browneyes124]

Many of the bigger labs have PIs that are extremely busy and these tend to be more hands-off. The PIs that are just starting out as well as small labs (assistant, associate) tend to be more hands-on. There are always exceptions…

If you simply want to test the waters, be aware that your undergraduate perception of research will be somewhat skewed for several reasons.
1) It really is a hit or miss. Just like you have had a subpar experience with your lab, I've had friends that turned out to hate research because of the lab environments. They don't hate research itself, but they think they do because the environment is so unhealthy. Furthermore, you might not like specific projects or experiments etc.
2) Your undergrad experience will not be much indicator as to your PhD experience nor your future experience as a PI etc. Even if you love being at the bench and conducting experiments as an undergrad, as a PI much of your job rests on coming up with new ideas and applying for funding (grants). You will usually be quite removed from doing the actual science in most cases (at least for basic science labs).

My recommendation if you want to get a feel for whether research is right for you or not is to find a small hands-on lab they will really mentor you. First, see if you like doing science then worry about the rest later.

If you want to stick it out in that lab, be upfront about what your expectations are as well as your mentor's. If he doesn't support you, then leave. But if I were you, it really sounds like that lab doesn't give a sht about undergrads.

I have already talked to the professor that had been advising me on my major and future career stuff and he said if I wanted to be in his lab then he would permit me in. Do you think it would be to much to do 2 labs at once? With this new professor, at least 9 hours a week in expected and 120 over the semester.
Also how do you tell your current professor that you want to switch labs?

 

[Moko]

I have already talked to the professor that had been advising me on my major and future career stuff and he said if I wanted to be in his lab then he would permit me in. Do you think it would be to much to do 2 labs at once? With this new professor, at least 9 hours a week in expected and 120 over the semester.
Also how do you tell your current professor that you want to switch labs?

Based on what you described, you should switch labs. This other professor seems invested in your future and can provide a good learning experience for you (and possibly a great LOR down the line). You should take him up on his offer and join his lab.

Don't bother working in two separate labs. You've got limited hours in a week, and there's only so much that can be gained by repeatedly injecting rats if it even gets there. When you're about to start in your other professor's lab, give your current professor two weeks notice -- though this is mostly just a formality since you haven't been doing anything in your current lab.

 

[browneyes124]

Based on what you described, you should switch labs. This other professor seems invested in your future and can provide a good learning experience for you (and possibly a great LOR down the line). You should take him up on his offer and join his lab.

Don't bother working in two separate labs. You've got limited hours in a week, and there's only so much that can be gained by repeatedly injecting rats if it even gets there. When you're about to start in your other professor's lab, give your current professor two weeks notice -- though this is mostly just a formality since you haven't been doing anything in your current lab.

Should I just say thank you for the opportunity. I learned about about the field of behavioral neuroscience but I think it's time for me to do research in a field that's more related to what my future goals are?
Also do you think I should get out this semester or still in till the summer then get out before fall semester starts?

 

[Moko]

do you think I should get out this semester or still in till the summer then get out before fall semester starts?

When you're about to start in your other professor's lab, give your current professor two weeks notice

Don't count your chickens until they've hatched. You never know if these other opportunities will fall through and maybe by then you would be allowed to start working in your current lab.

 

[browneyes124]

Don't count your chickens until they've hatched. You never know if these other opportunities will fall through and maybe by then you would be allowed to start working in your current lab.

So your saying I should stay till the summer and give them the 2 week notice before the fall semester starts since that's when my other lab will start?

 

[MaxPlancker]

So your saying I should stay till the summer and give them the 2 week notice before the fall semester starts since that's when my other lab will start?

No the week before you make the actual switch, just let the lab know. It literally won't bug them the slightest to lose you lol. The length of notice you give is dependent on how polite you want to be but IMO it's not rude to just say it's your last day when you aren't even getting lab time...

 

[JustAPhD]

No the week before you make the actual switch, just let the lab know. It literally won't bug them the slightest to lose you lol. The length of notice you give is dependent on how polite you want to be but IMO it's not rude to just say it's your last day when you aren't even getting lab time...

I understand the thought, but I would still find it rude if someone told me they were leaving on their very last day. IMO you should never burn bridges with anyone in science/medicine because you never know who people know.

 

[browneyes124]

I understand the thought, but I would still find it rude if someone told me they were leaving on their very last day. IMO you should never burn bridges with anyone in science/medicine because you never know who people know.

Should I just email him then and ask to meet with him and if so how should I phrase it?

 

[Lucca]

I understand the thought, but I would still find it rude if someone told me they were leaving on their very last day. IMO you should never burn bridges with anyone in science/medicine because you never know who people know.

It's true. Especially if it's a smaller field. There was a speaker on campus from a university on the other side of the country and I mentioned I worked in X's lab and they were like "oh yah I know X very well!" Lol.

 

[JustAPhD]

Should I just email him then and ask to meet with him and if so how should I phrase it?

Yes, I would send him an email asking if you can meet with him to discuss your plans next semester and onward. If it's true that behavioral neuro fits your interests better then just tell him that. He'll understand. You're a sophomore undergrad, your interests are still developing as you take more classes and sometimes a shift in labs is the best thing to do. You're not doing anything very critical to the lab, so they won't miss you (to put it bluntly) and there are always more undergrad fish in the university sea to replace you.

It's true. Especially if it's a smaller field. There was a speaker on campus from a university on the other side of the country and I mentioned I worked in X's lab and they were like "oh yah I know X very well!" Lol.

Yup. Between conferences and collaborations these things happen quite often.